TdF 2011 general discussion thread - likely to contain spoilers

[LittleWheelsandBig]

You've got to remember that descents can be properly, life-threateningly dangerous, not just a way of losing time.

Racing involves danger and crashing. Tightly packed pelotons, overlapping wheels in gusty crosswinds, bunch sprints and, yes, descending. If competitors want perfect safety, cycling is the wrong choice.

I'm well aware of the danger of descents. In the late 1980s, I wiped out on a fast descent and hit an oncoming car hard enough that it had to be towed away (as did I). In 1995, I stuffed up a decreasing radius downhill bend, spent 6 months in plaster and collected quite a bit of internal stainless steel. I'm not as fast as I used to be but am still fairly quick downhill.

Even when I was at my fastest downhill, I found one bloke who was quicker. Halfway through a tight 1-in-5 hairpin and thinking I was going pretty quick, 'Animal' came past on my inside, one hand off the bars waving to me. He never has overcooked a corner and his judgement and skill are demonstrably better than mine.

A well-designed stage race allows every talent to be displayed, not just flatlander and anti-gravity skills.

[Honest John]

You've got to remember that descents can be properly, life-threateningly dangerous, not just a way of losing time.

Racing involves danger and crashing. Tightly packed pelotons, overlapping wheels in gusty crosswinds, bunch sprints and, yes, descending. If competitors want perfect safety, cycling is the wrong choice.

<snip>

A well-designed stage race allows every talent to be displayed, not just flatlander and anti-gravity skills.

+1 and +1

[Honest John]

I say this because the commentary today didn't go 5 minutes without mentioning how dangerous the descent was ad that was two different lots of commentators. 5 live sounded properly concerned for the safety of the riders.

You could tell how difficult it was by the way the motorbikes were struggling to keep up - it looked absolutely terrifying !  The cameramen deserve medals for the footage they got yesterday.

I wondered whether Voeckler's first off (into the trees) was down the the motorbike getting in the way. It may be the lenses they're using, but quite often the cameras have seemed far too close to the action this year.

[Access Legal Guy]

Samuel Sanchez:
He'll be joined at the hip to Contador through the Alps. Not sure what his time-trialling is like, a good bet for the podium, maybe not the overall,

What I find really interesting is the way Sanchez and Contador have formed an alliance. Presumably Sanchez thinks it improves his own chances of a podium spot.

Sanchez's time-trialling isn't too bad - considerably better than either of the Schlecks. (He won the time trial in the 2007 Vuelta - beat Cadel by 19 seconds over the 20km course, apparently.)

d.

I recall watching the Giro this year and thinking how comfortable Contador was in winning it. Along the way he did a lot to 'help' Spanish riders and particularly Euskaltel riders by dragging them up hills or not attacking them when they were out in front. Nieve and Anton certainly benefited.

did he know he would need allies later in the year?

[Mr Larrington]

Yes, the last descent was on a twisty and narrow road.  But, Frandy, you see those things bolted to your handlebars?  If you pull them towards the bars, you will slow down.  Rumours that Frandy are to be carried from the summit of the Izoard to the foot of the Galibier by helicopter may be exaggerated.

I want to do the main road descent from Sestriere...

[mattc]

Eurk. I'm torn between 2 main factors:
- Although pro cycling is inherently dangerous, I don't want it to be a TEST of risk-taking*. Adding risk seems a bad thing.
- Stages like yesterday are a lot less high-risk than the high open mountain roads. Voeckler went off-roading twice with absolutely no ill effects yesterday, on a dry road, noone else to blame - that seems like 2 rider errors to me. So it seems they are not daft and self-regulate.

Nobody looks good whinging about a route they've known for a year. And the Schlecks could have gained time on the climbs if they know they're slower donwhill. So the organisers have probably got it about right.

_{*OK, I suppose sprinting will always have a large element of nerve vs skill. That's fine, lets not have the MJ decided that way.}

[citoyen]

Nobody looks good whinging about a route they've known for a year.

Quite. I understand EBH had actually been out to recce the route of yesterday's run-in well in advance. Good for him.

*OK, I suppose sprinting will always have a large element of nerve vs skill.

Unless you're in a sprint with Abdoujaparov, when it becomes a bit of a lottery...

There was a story in the local papers recently about a man who suffered serious head injuries after coming off his bike in a race that was part of a "fun day out" organised by his employer. He tried to sue his employer for not carrying out adequate risk assessment (the angle was lack of recommendation to wear a helmet, but let's not go there) but was rejected on the grounds that he'd caused the crash himself by deliberately riding in front of a rival.

It makes you realise that when the top sprinters complain about rivals coming off their line, they do so for damn good reason. These riders know how to sprint safely and probably take far fewer risks than amateurs on fun days out organised by their employer.

Same goes for the downhill bits. These are highly skilled bike handlers. They know how to negotiate these descents safely. Afaics, crashes are generally caused by riders pushing beyond the limits of their abilities, as Voeckler did yesterday.

If Rider A is more skilled at descending than Rider B, then Rider B is faced with either losing time or taking excessive risks to keep up. If they choose the latter, that's their own lookout. As the Schlecks showed yesterday, there's actually not much to be gained by taking excessive risks, and as Voeckler showed, there's plenty to lose.

d.

[mattc]

Nobody looks good whinging about a route they've known for a year.

Quite. I understand EBH had actually been out to recce the route of yesterday's run-in well in advance. Good for him.

Clarification Request:
I'm sure Halfords Boy mentioned someone else doing a recce - think it was a GC contender - was it one of the Schlecks?

[Honest John]

It makes you realise that when the top sprinters complain about rivals coming off their line, they do so for damn good reason. These riders know how to sprint safely.

Same goes for the downhill bits.

When on my hols a couple of weeks ago I had cause to ride from Briancon to Bourg d'Oisans via the Col du Lautaret and came across the Marmotte ride on its way down the Galibier to Alpe d'Huez.

Some of the bad descending had to be seen to be believed. "Line"? What's that?

OK guys, you've been over the Croix de Fer and the Galibier and you're tired, but that doesn't mean you can swerve all over the road, cut up other riders, make threepenny-bit turns or brake for no apparent reason on the straight bits (I overtook a lot of them simply by getting into a tuck and freewheeling!). And all this on roads open to the Great Motoring Unwashed. I took great pains not to follow any wheels and keep empty space in front of me.

I found it felt very dangerous and was very glad when I got out of the crowd at the end. It spoiled what should have been a glorious 30-km swoop.

[spesh]

I want to do the main road descent from Sestriere...

Join the queue. 

[Access Legal Guy]

Nobody looks good whinging about a route they've known for a year.

Quite. I understand EBH had actually been out to recce the route of yesterday's run-in well in advance. Good for him.

*OK, I suppose sprinting will always have a large element of nerve vs skill.

Unless you're in a sprint with Abdoujaparov, when it becomes a bit of a lottery...

There was a story in the local papers recently about a man who suffered serious head injuries after coming off his bike in a race that was part of a "fun day out" organised by his employer. He tried to sue his employer for not carrying out adequate risk assessment (the angle was lack of recommendation to wear a helmet, but let's not go there) but was rejected on the grounds that he'd caused the crash himself by deliberately riding in front of a rival.

It makes you realise that when the top sprinters complain about rivals coming off their line, they do so for damn good reason. These riders know how to sprint safely and probably take far fewer risks than amateurs on fun days out organised by their employer.

d.

In this case the employers raised the cyclist coming off line as a contributory negligence factor. The guy was found to be at fault for the crash, but the case was not rejected in full. The employers were found to be one third at fault for allowing him to take part without a helmet.

[citoyen]

In this case the employers raised the cyclist coming off line as a contributory negligence factor. ... The employers were found to be one third at fault for allowing him to take part without a helmet.

I really don't want to get sidetracked by that issue, but it's an absurd ruling - surely he was 100% at fault for riding like a fucking idiot? Things like this and Honest John's story really put me off taking part in mass-participation events with inexperienced cyclists.

The pros descending a mountain at >60mph are probably a lot safer than most of us would be on the same descent at 40mph.

d.

[Ray 6701]

Nobody looks good whinging about a route they've known for a year.

Quite. I understand EBH had actually been out to recce the route of yesterday's run-in well in advance. Good for him.

Clarification Request:
I'm sure Halfords Boy mentioned someone else doing a recce - think it was a GC contender - was it one of the Schlecks?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/descent-recon-pays-dividends-for-boasson-hagen

Originally posted by Spesh.

[mattc]

EBH = Edvard Boasson Hagen

[Honest John]

In this case the employers raised the cyclist coming off line as a contributory negligence factor. ... The employers were found to be one third at fault for allowing him to take part without a helmet.

I really don't want to get sidetracked by that issue, but it's an absurd ruling - surely he was 100% at fault for riding like a fucking idiot? Things like this and Honest John's story really put me off taking part in mass-participation events with inexperienced cyclists.

Audax and the Dun Run yes, sportives no. Inexperienced and unskilled riders riding competitively are dangerous to themselves and all the other riders. (Charideee rides no as well, but that's another story).

The pros descending a mountain at >60mph are probably a lot safer than most of us would be on the same descent at 40mph.

d.

Very true. Although having the whole road to yourself helps. Note also that they always leave plenty of room between each other, 5-10 bike lengths, and rarely overtake.

[RW]

Are there any more extensive online highlights than what is on offer on ITV4? Some of the stage highlights seem to last just a few minutes and I can no sense of how the stage went at all.

ITV player has the 45 minute version - there's a link at the bottom of the page

[Tim]

Has Andy just cut his umbilical cord to Frank?

PS descending - the behaviour of solos always seems staggeringly worse when you're cracking through on a tandem, lots of straightline speed and you've got to take clean lines through the corners. Now if only all those buggers gently ambling down hill (that'll be anyone on a solo - stop thinking you are quick downhill, if there's only one person on the bike you are not quick) would sort themselves out and stop weaving over the road and drifting in and out of the line on the corners I could stop chewing through brake blocks to counter your behaviour.

[Nick H.]

Well, this is actually quite exciting. Looking forward to Andy beong reeled in on the next climb. Evans will have to do some work for a change.

wrt descending, I used to be the best in the world. Beat a ton of people down the Alpe d'Huez by six minutes once, decking a pedal in the process. 

[Doosh]

It seems so, and they all let him go. Are they hoping he's going to kill himself and not have anything left for the final climb? Bit risky.

[gonzo]

Has Andy just cut his umbilical cord to Frank?

Planned move. I reckon it's been planned since the start of the tour; there's a reason why they didn't attack in the pyrennes!

re your descending - could you ever take on Terry in the descents?

[Nick H.]

Terry who?

[peliroja]

Contador appears to have switched teams! 

[Nick H.]

Blatant cheating by the dirty Spics there. Bertie even said thank you to the Euskaltel car!

[peliroja]

Contador and Sánchez have admitted they're working together in this Tour.

[Hot Flatus]

Take back what I said about the Schlecks, this is genius (if he pulls it off)