Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 June, 2011, 12:05:38 pm

Title: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 June, 2011, 12:05:38 pm
Now then people.

Some of you may have seen the thread on disc brakes for road bikes where Mr Clarion said

"Now you're here, it would be interesting to hear your views on a number of different issues.  Hope you have time to hang around and give us the benefit of your experience"

So here I am  ;)  I am quite happy to answer questions on frame related topics however I dont do personal problems, the meaning of life, what colour shorts should I buy, or is the moon really made of green cheese  ;D

Hope I can be of some assistance

Dave Yates



Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 24 June, 2011, 12:11:13 pm
...I dont do personal problems, the meaning of life, what colour shorts should I buy, or is the moon really made of green cheese ...

Oh. :(

*run out of questions*  ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 24 June, 2011, 12:12:58 pm
Afternoon, Mr Y. Might I mention in passing that commas in www addresses don't work.

Also - just curious: does anyone buy bespoke tt frames nowadays, or is it all Taiwanese carbon-fibre?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 24 June, 2011, 12:25:57 pm
Actually, I do have a question.

I want to use a hub gear on my tourer (531ST).  It currently has vertical dropouts.  I know I could go with a chain tensioner, but I think they're ugly, and, besides, I want to have the option of a fixed.

Now, next refurb I see the options as these:

Change the dropouts for trad horizontal ones, but I think they're getting rarer.

Change the dropouts for Rohloff-style sliding dropouts (better if I add a disc brake, of which more another time)

leave the dropouts and swap the BB (thread getting tired anyway) for an EBB, which makes disc brakes a good option (of which more later, as I say).

I've spoken to another framebuilder, who doesn't like EBBs because they change the effective seat angle, but I wouldn't have thought that was particularly critical on a tourer, though I don't have the experience to be certain (just been riding a bike for thirty years).

I'd appreciate your views.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: dasmoth on 24 June, 2011, 12:29:56 pm
I've spoken to another framebuilder, who doesn't like EBBs because they change the effective seat angle, but I wouldn't have thought that was particularly critical on a tourer, though I don't have the experience to be certain (just been riding a bike for thirty years).

I though you'd done some tandem miles?  Doesn't that have an EBB?

(They've certainly never bothered me, and seem like a much neater engineering solution that most of the alternatives -- I have a suspicion I'm relatively non-fussy about riding position, though, so maybe it matters more to others).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 June, 2011, 01:03:25 pm
Afternoon, Mr Y. Might I mention in passing that commas in www addresses don't work.

Also - just curious: does anyone buy bespoke tt frames nowadays, or is it all Taiwanese carbon-fibre?

Afternoon Ian

First one, finger trouble,  :-[ now rectified, Ta

Second one, I havent made a TT frame for at least 7 or 8 years so if anyone is buying them they dont come to me. I am totally out of touch with the racing world now I tend to make mainly tourers, audax, and MTBs so I havent a clue what people are riding.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 June, 2011, 01:17:50 pm
Actually, I do have a question.

I want to use a hub gear on my tourer (531ST).  It currently has vertical dropouts.  I know I could go with a chain tensioner, but I think they're ugly, and, besides, I want to have the option of a fixed.

Now, next refurb I see the options as these:

Change the dropouts for trad horizontal ones, but I think they're getting rarer.

Easiest and cheapest option. Not a problem as I probably have the worlds remaining supply of these  ;D Well, I have quite a lot.

Change the dropouts for Rohloff-style sliding dropouts (better if I add a disc brake, of which more another time)

Possible but rather more expensive

leave the dropouts and swap the BB (thread getting tired anyway) for an EBB, which makes disc brakes a good option (of which more later, as I say).

Major work required , expensive (very). If the frame is quite old, and it will be if made of 531 then personally I would not be keen on this option as you never know what you are going to find when you start dismantling

I've spoken to another framebuilder, who doesn't like EBBs because they change the effective seat angle, but I wouldn't have thought that was particularly critical on a tourer, though I don't have the experience to be certain (just been riding a bike for thirty years). Thirty years  :o Did you stop for a rest?

Yes the efective seat angle could change slightly depending on the position of the eccentric but as you say not particularly critical.

I'd appreciate your views.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 24 June, 2011, 01:57:20 pm
Thanks, Dave.  Does it change the balance of options if I need to replace the BB shell anyway?  This might be the case, as I've had problems with slipping cups and worn thread.  Temporarily seems to be solved, but I don't know about the long run.

Bike is from 1996, btw.  Has done a lot of miles, and I want it to do a lot more ;)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: DrMekon on 24 June, 2011, 03:47:41 pm
Have you ever been interviewed about your approach to bike fitting? I'd be interested to read about it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 June, 2011, 06:30:58 pm
Have you ever been interviewed about your approach to bike fitting? I'd be interested to read about it.

Short answer to that is No !!!  Best I can do is direct you to our website where there is an article I wrote for Arrive some years ago at
http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/custom_bike_frames-Frame_Design_Considerations-38.php (http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/custom_bike_frames-Frame_Design_Considerations-38.php)
I think the best description of my approach is "subjective seat of the pants" however it works for me!!

cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Zipperhead on 24 June, 2011, 09:44:31 pm
Oooh, I have a question.

I recently took the bottom bracket out of one of my bikes, a campag cartridge unit, and there was some fine rust on the outside, which much have come from the frame.

As the frame is a very nice 753 Bob Jackson I would like to stop it rusting away.  What would you recommend?

Ta.

Graham
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mikeluke on 24 June, 2011, 10:02:56 pm
I think the best description of my approach is "subjective seat of the pants" however it works for me!!

Certainly worked for me. Never cycled seriously before and already enjoyed 2600km on a new Dave Yates fast tourer since March. Comfortable and fast. Thanks :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 25 June, 2011, 05:28:35 pm
Thanks, Dave.  Does it change the balance of options if I need to replace the BB shell anyway?  This might be the case, as I've had problems with slipping cups and worn thread.  Temporarily seems to be solved, but I don't know about the long run.

Bike is from 1996, btw.  Has done a lot of miles, and I want it to do a lot more ;)

Changing a BB shell is quite a serious job  involving two heatings of the tube end. I normally remove a shell by disecting it and taking the remnants off the tube ends a piece at a time to reduce the amount of heat required. If the frame is in good condition then usually this should not cause a problem, however there is an element of risk involved.
Replacing a standard lug type BB shell with an eccentric shell is an order of magnitude more complex in that the eccentric shell has no pipes for the tubes to slot into so each of the four tubes attatched to it has to be cut dead length with a perfect mitre to fit the curve of the shell. This is hard enough to do with individual tube during the build process but trying to do it with a complete frame is an absolute nightmare. I have done it a couple of times so I speak from experience. !!!
For a dodgy thread there is another fix that the purists throw their hands up and run for cover at! This is the cut and weld where a cut is made across the shell with a double hacksaw blade and then vee'd out with an angle grinder. I then TIG weld it from the centre outwards which shrinks the shell enough to cut a new thread. It could be classed as a bodge but it works and is far kinder to the frame. I have succesfully done hundreds of these over the last 30 years and had very few problems.

I think that for this frame, best bet is to sort the shell out by either method then go the sliding dropout route to give you the option of a disc if you want.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 25 June, 2011, 05:31:57 pm
Oooh, I have a question.

I recently took the bottom bracket out of one of my bikes, a campag cartridge unit, and there was some fine rust on the outside, which much have come from the frame.

As the frame is a very nice 753 Bob Jackson I would like to stop it rusting away.  What would you recommend?

Ta.

Graham

Graham

Get yourself some Waxoyl from a car accessory shop and spray the  inside of the four tubes that join the BB shell. Excellent stuff, will stop any rust dead in its tracks.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Crepello on 25 June, 2011, 07:52:07 pm
Steel frames without bottle cage fixings: Is it a really stupid idea to drill and fit riv-nuts for these fixings? Are cracks likely to propagate from these holes and would thicker plain gage tube make any difference in avoiding such a risk rather than the light gage stuff?

Thanks,
Jerry
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 25 June, 2011, 11:25:42 pm
Steel frames without bottle cage fixings: Is it a really stupid idea to drill and fit riv-nuts for these fixings? Are cracks likely to propagate from these holes and would thicker plain gage tube make any difference in avoiding such a risk rather than the light gage stuff?

Thanks,
Jerry

Jerry

There have been several well known manufacturers use this system on steel frames in the past. I have never seen a frame break as a result. As long as the hole is drilled accurately and any raggy edges smoothed before the rivnut is fitted it should work ok. Rivnuts work best for this purpose on ally frames, the softer material allows the rivnut to grip the edges of the hole more securely. I would coat the rivnut with Araldite or similar slow setting epoxy adhesive as a belt and braces solution. Centre punch the hole centres and drill in stages ie 3mm, 5mm, then recommended size for your particular rivnut.
I would not do this on any of the more exotic very thin tubes but anything from about 0.6mm on the unbutted setion should be ok.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Cheers
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Zipperhead on 25 June, 2011, 11:29:43 pm
Graham

Get yourself some Waxoyl from a car accessory shop and spray the  inside of the four tubes that join the BB shell. Excellent stuff, will stop any rust dead in its tracks.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Thanks Dave, I'll pick some up during the week and do it next Saturday.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: border-rider on 25 June, 2011, 11:32:42 pm
worth doing if you have Pompino.  They rust like buggery from the inside.  I did mine and the one I sold to Mr Endon, and had a load of Waxoyl left.  I got my Waxoyl on t'internet, with an applicator.  Enough for 5 or 6 frames I'd think so maybe worth sharing with other forrummers
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Zipperhead on 26 June, 2011, 12:16:30 am
worth doing if you have Pompino.  They rust like buggery from the inside.  I did mine and the one I sold to Mr Endon, and had a load of Waxoyl left.  I got my Waxoyl on t'internet, with an applicator.  Enough for 5 or 6 frames I'd think so maybe worth sharing with other forrummers

As I have a new Pomp, I could give it a blast as well, also my trike. The bottom bracket needs adjusting anyway, so it won't be much extra work to strip it and spray it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Crepello on 26 June, 2011, 01:18:13 am
Steel frames without bottle cage fixings: Is it a really stupid idea to drill and fit riv-nuts for these fixings? Are cracks likely to propagate from these holes and would thicker plain gage tube make any difference in avoiding such a risk rather than the light gage stuff?

Thanks,
Jerry

Jerry

There have been several well known manufacturers use this system on steel frames in the past. I have never seen a frame break as a result. As long as the hole is drilled accurately and any raggy edges smoothed before the rivnut is fitted it should work ok. Rivnuts work best for this purpose on ally frames, the softer material allows the rivnut to grip the edges of the hole more securely. I would coat the rivnut with Araldite or similar slow setting epoxy adhesive as a belt and braces solution. Centre punch the hole centres and drill in stages ie 3mm, 5mm, then recommended size for your particular rivnut.
I would not do this on any of the more exotic very thin tubes but anything from about 0.6mm on the unbutted setion should be ok.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Cheers
Thanks for that very useful advice.

[edited to cut some late night drunken exuberance ::-)]
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 26 June, 2011, 11:22:27 am
Dave, what are your thoughts on fillet brazing vs lugged joints?  Is it just a case of extra work and skill to create something cosmetically better or are there structural and "ride feel" advantages to either? 

Great to see you in here by the way! (At least one of us knows what they're talking about now..)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 26 June, 2011, 11:36:07 pm
Dave, what are your thoughts on fillet brazing vs lugged joints?  Is it just a case of extra work and skill to create something cosmetically better or are there structural and "ride feel" advantages to either? 

Great to see you in here by the way! (At least one of us knows what they're talking about now..)

Now then Mr Tewdric,

In my humble opinion, structurally there aint a lot to choose. If you build two frames of identical dimensions and tubes, one lugged and one fillet brazed. Built them up with identical components I doubt you would feel any difference in the ride. (I have had both and although the frames were not identical they were close and I did not notice any real difference). This assumes of course that the mitres were cut accurately in both cases. The strength of any joint on a frame is entirely dependant on the fit of the mitre and the penetration of the brass/silver into the joint to stick one tube onto the other right around the circumference of the tube A common beginners mistake with a lugged joint is to simply braze the tubes to the lug with no penetration through to where the tubes touch. Likewise I have seen badly executed fillets where the brass just bridges the joint with no penetration, result, broken joint !!!
The advantage of fillet brazing is that the design is not constrained by the lugs so sloping top tubes, odd angles etc are not a problem. Some people go for fillets on aesthetic grounds but the greater proportion that I see are to have a sloping TT. The down side of fillets is the extra time taken to finish to an acceptable standard which obviously puts the price up.
So basically you pays yer money etc

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 27 June, 2011, 12:29:16 pm
Going back to time trial frames. The fashion currently is for tightest clearance, aerodynamic tubes, and as near to 'faired-in' as the regs will allow. By contrast a well-known rider has broken several records on this (http://www.bikeradar.com/gallery/article/uk-time-trial-round-up-wilkinson-breaks-12hr-record-22792?img=1&pn=uk-time-trial-round-up-wilkinson-breaks-12hr-record&mlc=racing%2Fin-depth%2Farticle#) machine. It doesn't tick many of the usual boxes.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 27 June, 2011, 08:37:32 pm
Going back to time trial frames. The fashion currently is for tightest clearance, aerodynamic tubes, and as near to 'faired-in' as the regs will allow. By contrast a well-known rider has broken several records on this (http://www.bikeradar.com/gallery/article/uk-time-trial-round-up-wilkinson-breaks-12hr-record-22792?img=1&pn=uk-time-trial-round-up-wilkinson-breaks-12hr-record&mlc=racing%2Fin-depth%2Farticle#) machine. It doesn't tick many of the usual boxes.

Which just goes to substantiate my contention that an aero frame might save you a bit of petrol if it is on top of the car going to a race but in practice does precious little else other than suggest to  the rider he/she will go faster. !!
When I were a lad, before disc and composite wheels, aero frames, tri bars, skin suits and all the other "go faster" bits of kit, comp record at 25 miles of a time of 52.28 was held by  Dave Dungworth on a bike that by todays standards would be a touring bike !! In the early 80s my ex business partner Joe Waugh did a stupidly fast 25 of 50 mins and some seconds, cant remember exactly, on his standard 753 road bike with just a skin suit as an aid to speed. At the time this was the third fastest ever 25.
Its not about the bike, its all about the power unit.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 03 July, 2011, 10:38:43 am
[Moderator's note: I am thinking of Stickifying this topic.  Meanwhile, this is a bump to get it back on page 1]

EDIT:   Now Stickified.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mark on 03 July, 2011, 12:04:56 pm
[Moderator's note: I am thinking of Stickifying this topic.  Meanwhile, this is a bump to get it back on page 1]

That would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 03 July, 2011, 04:49:44 pm
[Moderator's note: I am thinking of Stickifying this topic.  Meanwhile, this is a bump to get it back on page 1]

Thats fine by me. The more the merrier  ;D

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: YahudaMoon on 03 July, 2011, 05:08:18 pm
Hi Dave.

I'd love a English custom built touring frame. This is something I have wanted for years and maybe in the next few years I'll get one ?

I have always fancied Columbus though titanium is the order of the day nowadays.
What material would you choose and who would you pick for a build other than yourself ? Oh my frame would have to be lugged. I dont fancy paying good money for a butted frame.

Also I have noticed stove enamaled paintwork looks the best ? What paint finish would you pick ?

Thanks

John
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 03 July, 2011, 08:22:55 pm
Another from me if I may Dave..

My present audax frame is fillet brazed 853 with a sloping top tube.  I have a sneaking feeling my next frame will come from your workshop, either built by me if I can persuade Mrs Tewdric that she needs to send me on the course, or (probably more likely....) by your good self.  

I will agonise for months over whether to go for 853 again, or get something perhaps a little more comfy with less stiffness in the tubes, or go for 953.  

Similarly I will waste half my life pondering a horizontal versus sloping top tube.  My current
view of the world is probably 653 horizontal top-tube lugged if I build it, 953 fillet-brazed if you do.    

What would your advice be?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: innesh on 03 July, 2011, 10:42:06 pm
Hi Dave, I have a question.  Colour no. 28 on your colour chart - what happened?  I'm assuming it's pearlescent orange? 

You built me a beautiful 631 Super Randonneur a few years back in this colour.  People often comment about the colour, even non-cyclists admire it's sparkly beauty.  Why does no one have good taste any more?  ::-) ;D

Seriously, what's your view on the current dash for titanium?  When you built my frame it was the thing to have (and IMO still is).  But as usual with me, it went out of fashion the very next day.  :-[

The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike?  Well, nearly everyone.  I'm not about to change and I've never ridden a Ti frame, but, in your opinion, is there any real advantage to them?

Long live custom built steel.  Long live colourful frames.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 03 July, 2011, 11:14:49 pm
Hi Dave.

I'd love a English custom built touring frame. This is something I have wanted for years and maybe in the next few years I'll get one ?

I have always fancied Columbus though titanium is the order of the day nowadays.
What material would you choose and who would you pick for a build other than yourself ? Oh my frame would have to be lugged. I dont fancy paying good money for a butted frame.
My choice of tube for a full blooded touring frame, ie front and rear panniers, equipped for an extended tour, would be Reynolds 525. It has the same published properties as the old 531 and IHMO works really well on this sort of frame if the tube sections are chosen carefully. Columbus is fine but I doubt you could tell the difference if the frame was designed and built properly
Who to build it? Thats a bit of a leading question  ;D I can think of a few good builders but it comes down to Chas Roberts or Robin Mather
I dont understand your reference to "not paying good money for a butted frame" By that do you mean lugless construction, either fillet brazed or TIG welded. Nothing wrong with either method but a frame like this is to fit your dream so you have it built the way you want


Also I have noticed stove enamaled paintwork looks the best ? What paint finish would you pick ?  Stove enamel is what I use and I consider it to be the best for the job if you want a decent finish. Two pack is nearly as good now but not quite as durable. Powder coating is a bullet proof utility finish

Thanks

John

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 03 July, 2011, 11:31:28 pm
Another from me if I may Dave..

My present audax frame is fillet brazed 853 with a sloping top tube.  I have a sneaking feeling my next frame will come from your workshop, either built by me if I can persuade Mrs Tewdric that she needs to send me on the course, or (probably more likely....) by your good self.  

I will agonise for months over whether to go for 853 again, or get something perhaps a little more comfy with less stiffness in the tubes, or go for 953.  

Similarly I will waste half my life pondering a horizontal versus sloping top tube.  My current
view of the world is probably 653 horizontal top-tube lugged if I build it, 953 fillet-brazed if you do.    

What would your advice be?

653 is no longer available nor has it been for about fifteen years !!! I presume you mean 631, which is an excellent choice for an Audax frame if you want comfort over long distances. When I was audaxing a lot I built myself an 853 frame and found it far too harsh. I rode four 200s on it and finished each one absolutely battered, I have finished 600s in better condition !! I certainly would not recommend 953 for an audax bike as it is supposed to make a stiffer frame than 853, I fear it would rattle your eyeballs out of their sockets.
Sloping TT vs Horizontal? Whatever turns you on. As long as you get your saddle and bars in the correct position relative to the bottom bracket centre then how you connect them together is a matter for your personal choice. Sorry, but you will have to keep pondering ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 03 July, 2011, 11:57:34 pm
Hi Dave, I have a question.  Colour no. 28 on your colour chart - what happened?  I'm assuming it's pearlescent orange? 
It is actually Flamboyant Orange and alas I can no longer do that as the tin I had is finished and I cant get any more
You built me a beautiful 631 Super Randonneur a few years back in this colour.  People often comment about the colour, even non-cyclists admire it's sparkly beauty.  Why does no one have good taste any more?  ::-) ;D

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder  ;D

Seriously, what's your view on the current dash for titanium?  When you built my frame it was the thing to have (and IMO still is).  But as usual with me, it went out of fashion the very next day.  :-[

The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike?  Well, nearly everyone.  I'm not about to change and I've never ridden a Ti frame, but, in your opinion, is there any real advantage to them?
I too have never ridden a titanium frame so I can only comment from a theoretical standpoint. Talking to people that own then seems to indicate that they give a nice ride and they dont rust. By and large you cannot get a true custom Ti frame, ie talk to the builder and specify every last detail. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me otherwise  ;D. There are probably American builders doing this but the cost will be astronomical. So the option for most is one of the many off the peg frames about and if that is what you want then fine !!! Down side is if it breaks or you have a crash and it is damaged, getting it repaired is a real nightmare not to say expensive if you can find  someone to repair it.
There is a difference between "want" and "need" we dont actually need most of what we want but if aquiring what you want makes you happy then go for it !!!!! Cycling is a very fashion conscious pastime so flavour of the month will always be an influence

Long live custom built steel.  Long live colourful frames.  :thumbsup:

I'll drink to that


Cheers

Dave Yates

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 04 July, 2011, 10:06:06 pm
Sloping TT vs Horizontal? Whatever turns you on. As long as you get your saddle and bars in the correct position relative to the bottom bracket centre then how you connect them together is a matter for your personal choice. Sorry, but you will have to keep pondering ;D

I meant 631 of course, too much sun on the road yesterday...

You've confirmed my thoughts about sloping top tube vs horizontal with that answer - I think it's more about form and fashion rather than engineering and function.  It's going to have to be 631 lugged with a horizontal top tube and clearance (but only just) for 28c tyres.

Have I just described a Super Randonneur by any chance? :-)

Having said that I do like the ride of my tight clearance 853 frame for audax - I was fresh as a daisy in the arse and eyeball departments after my recent 600 and enjoyed the lively and efficient ride. 

Decisions decisions..
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 07 July, 2011, 10:20:04 am
Quote
Have I just described a Super Randonneur by any chance? :-)

Spot on  ;D

Quote
Having said that I do like the ride of my tight clearance 853 frame for audax - I was fresh as a daisy in the arse and eyeball departments after my recent 600 and enjoyed the lively and efficient ride. 

Decisions decisions..


Many things affect the perceived "comfort" of a bike, frame size, design, material (all 853 or main triangle only), forks, wheels, tyres, contact points ie saddle, bars, pedals. The list goes on. You obviously have all of these nailed to your particular satisfaction. Well done !!!  I sometimes put an 853 down tube in big Audax frames to stop them flexing too much but I would certainly advise against if the frame was very small.

All of the advice I give to customers is of course just my opinion based on my experience and is not carved in tablets of stone. One of the first things I tell people on my course is that there are as many different ways of building frames as there are frame builders. No one way is "right"

I hope you notice I have finally worked out how to selectively "quote" from the post I am replying to. Its dead complicated this computer stuff ;)

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 07 July, 2011, 10:27:12 am
Not really a question but a statement. I have an oddball frame made from 653 throughout (confirmed by the builder, Mercian). Yes I know that theoretically rear triangles etc weren't made of 653, but this was a one-off made for the owner of Mercian.

It is a wonderful ride, responsive and quick even though the rear stays are as long as a bus.

However, when I damaged the BB shell, Mercian were very reluctant to the point of refusal when I asked them to repair it. They said that because it was all 653, and old, the chances were that many of the tubes would be rusted to near failure and they couldn't guarantee any longevity.

Dave, would you regard 631 as the modern 531? Is there much difference?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: vorsprung on 07 July, 2011, 10:31:20 am
The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike? 

raw titanium isn't grey, it's a sort of silver with a goldish tinge
Or grey with a hint of rust if you prefer...
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 07 July, 2011, 10:47:44 am
Or black.  Well, that's what my Ti bike is going to be when I get it, and have it sprayed.  You think I want people to know I'm riding round Central London on a Ti frame?  Not bloody likely.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 07 July, 2011, 10:51:00 am
My titanium Raleigh Timet is grey, with the merest hint of gold in a certain light.  It is basically grey!  It has a matt oxidised finish.

You can brighten the bike up with coloured bar tape and tyres or whatever.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 07 July, 2011, 09:17:57 pm
Now then Mr Charly

Quote
I have an oddball frame made from 653 throughout (confirmed by the builder, Mercian). Yes I know that theoretically rear triangles etc weren't made of 653, but this was a one-off made for the owner of Mercian.

The set of tubes marketed as 653 consisted of 531 main triangle tubes that had been drawn to a higher tensile strength. Around 60 tons/sq inch as opposed to 50 tons for standard 531. When the tubes are produced they are drawn through a die over a mandrel to produce the butt profile. This drawing process work hardens the tube. As far as I know 631 was drawn through a slightly tighter die to work harden it a bit more. The chain and seat stays were always (at least on all the sets I ever saw) 753 which was  simply 531 heat treated to make it "stronger" I have never heard of 653 chain or seat stays. The nature of their production precludes the drawing process used to make the main triangle tubes.
I am going to stick my neck out and say it sounds like a load of waffle :o
Having said that, I can understand Mercian's reluctance to repair an old frame made of thin tubes, a bit like Russian Roulette ;D
Incidentally, what is actually wrong with the BB shell? There may be other options.

Quote
Dave, would you regard 631 as the modern 531? Is there much difference?

631 is 853 without the heat treatment. It is an air hardening alloy steel and significantly "better" than the old 531 for cetain applications. On a like for like frame you would get a more responsive ride with 631 IMHO.

Cheers

Dave Yates

PS The "653" back end may have been something that Reynolds were playing with at the time. Thinking back I used to get stuff for national squad riders that no one else had access to.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Canardly on 07 July, 2011, 09:36:52 pm
Having swopped out a 20 year old 531 super galaxy for a new 631 SG must say that perceived comfort is as good if not better with the new bike. Just a shame that machines have taken over from frame builder. Unicrown forks are certainly not as elegant and of course you can't repair the new frame as readily as before. Personally I hope things are going full circle and that we will see the renaissance of British built bike frames.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 07 July, 2011, 09:49:22 pm
Unicrown forks are ugly ugly ugly.

There.

I've said it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 08 July, 2011, 12:22:40 pm
I am going to stick my neck out and say it sounds like a load of waffle :o
Having said that, I can understand Mercian's reluctance to repair an old frame made of thin tubes, a bit like Russian Roulette ;D

It does sound unlikely, but the framebuilder was very insistent, said it was a one-off and they'd be unable to replace tubes with like-for-like if something went wrong. So maybe Mercian had some odd samples to play with.  It's also possible that I misheard and they meant 653/753 throughout.

Incidentally, what is actually wrong with the BB shell? There may be other options.
It 'stretched' on the drive-side, to the extent that the diameter was 2mm larger than it should have been for over 10mm. non-drive-side distorted a bit.

I 'fixed' it by filling with epoxy putty, then sanding back until a Prestige 'clamping' bb would slide in with encouragement - a very very tight friction fit. then I threadlocked the Prestige clamping bits. After I'd done all of this, I heard of 'resleeving', which would have probably worked.

It's surviving - I've probably done 3000miles on the frame since then. 
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 13 July, 2011, 06:13:15 pm
Quote
I 'fixed' it by filling with epoxy putty, then sanding back until a Prestige 'clamping' bb would slide in with encouragement - a very very tight friction fit. then I threadlocked the Prestige clamping bits. After I'd done all of this, I heard of 'resleeving', which would have probably worked.

It's surviving - I've probably done 3000miles on the frame since then. 

Been away in the caravan for a few days chilling out and dog training, hence delay in replying.
Sounds like a workmanlike repair. If or when it gives up then a sleeve job is probably the way to go for a permanent fix.
It is a steel frame and therefore fixable (usually) no matter what the problem ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: PH on 17 July, 2011, 07:55:36 pm
Hi Dave.  One I've been pondering while thinking/dreaming of the next bike. 
What determines the maximum tyre size when using deep drop brakes?  Some bikes using them seem to only manage 25mm by distorting the mudguard, others seem fine with 28mm and I've heard of people using 30s.  Is it just the height of the brake bridge?  If so why are they not all designed to take the maximum possible?  Or is there some disadvantage?  What tyre size would you say was possible if I was asking for these brakes and mudguards?
Thanks
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 17 July, 2011, 08:23:54 pm
Just a couple of details while you're waiting for Dave...

Indeed the position of the brake doesn't always allow this, but the deepest-drop caliper brakes can take tyres bigger than 35mm.

Sometimes what limits the tyre size is the chain stays - their length and distance apart.  Often, bikes with a short wheel base can't take fat tyres.  Hopefully Dave will explain any advantages of a short wheel base.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 17 July, 2011, 11:41:13 pm
Now then Mr PH

It depends on how the frame was built. Specifically the height of the brake bridge and the length of the forks. I usually set these dimensions so the brake blocks are at the bottom of the slot on the intended brake giving the maximum clearance. Usually that will take a 28mm tyre with guards. All 28mm tyres are not created equal so you may get a skinny 32 in  but may have difficulty with a beefy 28. This is assuming a 57mm drop brake. There are deeper brakes on the market but all the ones I have seen tend to be a bit Mickey Mouse in the retardation department. Biggsy's comment on chainstays is quite correct but why would you want to put big tyres on a bike with a short back end which is more in keeping with a race type bike.
The two things I get asked most about are the two things with least relevance to "performance" ie weight and wheelbase. I design a frame to do a job and the weight comes out at whatever the weight comes out at !!! With decent tube and components there will only be a difference of about 2lb between a super light steel frame ( about 3lb) and a heavy steel frame (about 5lb).
Wheelbase is a function of about 11 different dimensions all of which are more important than their sum. Again I design the frame to fit and suit the purpose of the customer and it comes out at whatever it comes out at. I have never used either as a design parameter.
Some of the worst handling bikes I have ever ridden were ultra short wheelbase TT bikes most of which were nothing short of lethal.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: DuncanM on 18 July, 2011, 06:57:49 pm
I have a question about preparing and protecting the inside of a steel frame.

I've finally got my seatpost out and there's some surface rust on the inside of the seat tube. I'd like to remove this and protect the tubing so it doesn't happen again. I figure a squirt of waxoyl down each tube would be a good way of protecting them (is this a reasonable assumption?), but how do I clean the rust off the seat tube first?
Do you put anything inside your steel frames to protect them from rust?

Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: PH on 18 July, 2011, 08:59:08 pm
Thanks both Biggsy and Dave for the replies.  So I'm realistically looking at a normal 28mm tyre and mudguard, not as big as I'd hoped, still bigger than many frames seem to accommodate.  I see how this is achieved by using the full drop of the brakes, I'm still puzzled why  all builders don't do this, as an example here's Tewdric's Bob Jackson;
http://www.reb.co.uk/bobjackson.jpg

The line of the mudguard shows there's plenty of room at the front of the chainstays, yet the brake blocks are no where near the bottom of the slots,  restricting clearance.  If this was a one off I'd think someone had made a design mistake, but I see loads of Audax bikes like this.
 
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Chris N on 18 July, 2011, 09:31:42 pm
Tewdric's Bob Jackson is a different case - it's got horizontal track ends with the wheel towards the front of the adjustment range so as the wheel goes back, the pads can come down in the slots. You can get round this by using long forward facing (and slightly angled) dropouts such as Campagnolo 1010 instead of track ends.

Totally agree about not using the full range of brake adjustment on a bike with vertical dropouts though.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: PH on 18 July, 2011, 09:54:43 pm
Tewdric's Bob Jackson is a different case - it's got horizontal track ends with the wheel towards the front of the adjustment range so as the wheel goes back, the pads can come down in the slots. You can get round this by using long forward facing (and slightly angled) dropouts such as Campagnolo 1010 instead of track ends.

Totally agree about not using the full range of brake adjustment on a bike with vertical dropouts though.
Ah, thanks.  I'm glad there's an explanation in that case as it is otherwise a gorgeous looking bike.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 19 July, 2011, 11:22:44 pm
I have a question about preparing and protecting the inside of a steel frame.

I've finally got my seatpost out and there's some surface rust on the inside of the seat tube. I'd like to remove this and protect the tubing so it doesn't happen again. I figure a squirt of waxoyl down each tube would be a good way of protecting them (is this a reasonable assumption?), but how do I clean the rust off the seat tube first?
Do you put anything inside your steel frames to protect them from rust?

Cheers
Duncan

Duncan

Last question first. I recommend Waxoyl to all my customers. It is extremely good for protecting bare steel as it creeps if damaged and self heals.  I do not apply it as standard as some people want to do their own thing and it is a bit messy.
If the rust in your seat tube is just a dust of surface rust I would just spray the Waxoyl straight over it. If it is a little heavier then the best way to shift most of it is with a strip of abrasive cloth inseted into a slot in the end of a length of dowel, stick the other end in a power drill and wizz it up and down inside the tube. Then spray your waxoyl into the tube.
A long time ago when Noah was a lad, I had a Mark one Ford Cortina that was a perambulating rust ball. I sprayed the underside with Waxoyl and it stopped the rust dead in its tracks. It taught me a lot that car, I learned to weld rust  ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates (No relation to John Yates, late of the Met !!!!!)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 20 July, 2011, 11:43:00 am

...Dave Yates (No relation to John Yates, late of the Met !!!!!)

Well, that's a load off my mind!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 20 July, 2011, 11:44:36 am
Can we have further updates on relations to Paula and Trish Yates? ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 20 July, 2011, 11:52:21 am
Can we have further updates on relations to Paula and Trish Yates? ;D

Sean Yates?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 20 July, 2011, 12:01:47 pm
WB & Jack? ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 20 July, 2011, 12:08:16 pm
WB & Jack? ;D

Anagrammatic relations.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: MartinC on 20 July, 2011, 01:51:56 pm
Hi Dave.  One I've been pondering while thinking/dreaming of the next bike. 
What determines the maximum tyre size when using deep drop brakes?  Some bikes using them seem to only manage 25mm by distorting the mudguard, others seem fine with 28mm and I've heard of people using 30s.  Is it just the height of the brake bridge?  If so why are they not all designed to take the maximum possible?  Or is there some disadvantage?  What tyre size would you say was possible if I was asking for these brakes and mudguards?
Thanks

Also, it's not just the frame that determines this but the profile of the brake and the mudguard.  Some brakes have arm profiles that make a narrowing arch, some make a flat arch.  The former will require you to drop the mudguard placement even though there's room in the frame.  The distance from the bolt centre to the top of the arch also varies and affects how high you can fit the 'guard.  SKS narrow guards have a rectangular trough shaped profile which maybe won't fit up into the brake arch in the way a round profile 'guard would.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mike on 20 July, 2011, 02:42:40 pm
Dave, who do you recommend for a frame strip down and re-spray on a moulton? 
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 20 July, 2011, 04:28:43 pm
WB & Jack? ;D

Anagrammatic relations.

Hmm.  Yeah, I think they're a bit homophonic.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: DuncanM on 20 July, 2011, 10:46:11 pm
If the rust in your seat tube is just a dust of surface rust I would just spray the Waxoyl straight over it. If it is a little heavier then the best way to shift most of it is with a strip of abrasive cloth inseted into a slot in the end of a length of dowel, stick the other end in a power drill and wizz it up and down inside the tube. Then spray your waxoyl into the tube.
A long time ago when Noah was a lad, I had a Mark one Ford Cortina that was a perambulating rust ball. I sprayed the underside with Waxoyl and it stopped the rust dead in its tracks. It taught me a lot that car, I learned to weld rust  ;D

The dowel idea is a great idea - I'll give that a go - thanks for your reply.

My garage is full of 1976 Lancia Beta that I need to restore - I suspect I'll spend a lot of time attempting to weld rust. ;)
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 July, 2011, 11:39:16 pm
Sorry chaps, all the speculation on my relatives passed me by as I've been painting all day. The kitchen and staircase that is, not frames  :'( Jobs been waiting for about 3 years !!!
All the other Yateses mentioned are nowt to do with me. I am from the minor but exclusive Geordie branch of the clan  ;D

Dave Yates (Howay the lads !!!)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 July, 2011, 11:46:06 pm
Dave, who do you recommend for a frame strip down and re-spray on a moulton?

Pass !  I have not had that much experience of Moultons and, to be honest, I try to steer clear as there is so much more work involved. If I charge a commercial price it tends to put people off.  If I dont then I am not making any money which is not the object of the exercise when running a business.
All I can suggest is to contact all the usual suspects and see who is prepared to do it.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Efrogwr on 21 July, 2011, 12:22:45 pm
Sorry chaps, all the speculation on my relatives passed me by as I've been painting all day. The kitchen and staircase that is, not frames  :'( Jobs been waiting for about 3 years !!!
All the other Yateses mentioned are nowt to do with me. I am from the minor but exclusive Geordie branch of the clan  ;D

Dave Yates (Howay the lads !!!)

I hope you did a better job than Jack...
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 22 July, 2011, 07:28:48 pm
Hi Dave.  One I've been pondering while thinking/dreaming of the next bike. 
What determines the maximum tyre size when using deep drop brakes?  Some bikes using them seem to only manage 25mm by distorting the mudguard, others seem fine with 28mm and I've heard of people using 30s.  Is it just the height of the brake bridge?  If so why are they not all designed to take the maximum possible?  Or is there some disadvantage?  What tyre size would you say was possible if I was asking for these brakes and mudguards?
Thanks

Now then Mr PH

It depends on how the frame was built. Specifically the height of the brake bridge and the length of the forks. I usually set these dimensions so the brake blocks are at the bottom of the slot on the intended brake giving the maximum clearance. Usually that will take a 28mm tyre with guards. All 28mm tyres are not created equal so you may get a skinny 32 in  but may have difficulty with a beefy 28. This is assuming a 57mm drop brake. There are deeper brakes on the market but all the ones I have seen tend to be a bit Mickey Mouse in the retardation department. Biggsy's comment on chainstays is quite correct but why would you want to put big tyres on a bike with a short back end which is more in keeping with a race type bike.
The two things I get asked most about are the two things with least relevance to "performance" ie weight and wheelbase. I design a frame to do a job and the weight comes out at whatever the weight comes out at !!! With decent tube and components there will only be a difference of about 2lb between a super light steel frame ( about 3lb) and a heavy steel frame (about 5lb).
Wheelbase is a function of about 11 different dimensions all of which are more important than their sum. Again I design the frame to fit and suit the purpose of the customer and it comes out at whatever it comes out at. I have never used either as a design parameter.
Some of the worst handling bikes I have ever ridden were ultra short wheelbase TT bikes most of which were nothing short of lethal.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Interesting one, this. I have a Bob Jackson not dissimilar to Tewdric's although I think his is custom whereas mine is off the shelf. Same geometry though. I really like the frame, it's turned out to be really comfortable for me and I'm delighted with it except for one thing: that rear brake bridge is too low. I have deep drops but the blocks are usually near the top depending how far back the wheel is. There just isn't enough comfortable clearance for a mudguard of the SKS type, and there is a fair bit of stone-scraping noise at times. The limiting factor is the underside of the brake calipers. OK so it was never really intended to have mudguards on it, I suppose. The fork - still a bit tighter than I'd like but tolerable.

I like the bike so much I'd consider having the bridge moved if I get it resprayed at some future date. How feasible is this, Bicycle Repair Man? Is it inevitable that doing so would weaken the frame, for one thing?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 22 July, 2011, 08:16:28 pm
Quote
I like the bike so much I'd consider having the bridge moved if I get it resprayed at some future date. How feasible is this, Bicycle Repair Man? Is it inevitable that doing so would weaken the frame, for one thing?

No problem at all, I have done lots ( read hundreds) of this repair with no ill effects. Cut bridge out cold and file back the stubs to the stay surface then braze a new bridge in at the desired height.
I often do jobs like this to make a nice frame nicer !!! The problem with a lot of off the peg frames is that they try to be all things to all men (and women) and inevitably some owners find them not quite "right" This is the beauty of a steel frame, it can be modified like this without any great hassle by a competent builder.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Doosh on 12 August, 2011, 03:18:30 pm
Hi Dave,

Is there a reliable way to identify whether a frame is 531 or not? The sticker looks genuine and 531 was an original option according to the Peugeot sales brochure. The sticker just states '531 Butted Frame Tubes'.

A few measurements if it's any help- seat tube wall thickness 0.8mm, outside diameter 28mm, seat tube internal diameter 26.4mm.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 August, 2011, 09:03:24 am
Hi Dave,

Is there a reliable way to identify whether a frame is 531 or not? The sticker looks genuine and 531 was an original option according to the Peugeot sales brochure. The sticker just states '531 Butted Frame Tubes'.

A few measurements if it's any help- seat tube wall thickness 0.8mm, outside diameter 28mm, seat tube internal diameter 26.4mm.

Cheers.

Many appologies for the delay in replying. We had a lightning strike on the power line outside our house and among other things it fried the router with the ensuing power spike. A nice man called Barry from BTs Bombay call centre said he would send us a new router, it never turned up !!! Another attempt produced a router on friday and its taken this long to sort out the strange things that happened to the computer.

Now then Doosh

The "531 frame tubes" indicates that the main triangle ie seat, top and down tubes are 531 but the stays are of indeterminate origin. The 28mm seat tube indicates French metric standard tube. The French, being very parochial have their own standards for everything. Frame tubes were 28mm dia seat and down tube and 26mm top tube. Despite the transfer the seat tube sounds plain gauge as a normal single butted seat tube would have a wall thickness of .5mm.
If you can get a picture up I can probably give you some more details

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Doosh on 16 August, 2011, 12:43:26 pm
Thanks Dave. Which parts, specifically, would you need pics of?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 18 August, 2011, 02:55:07 pm
Thanks Dave. Which parts, specifically, would you need pics of?

Seat cluster and head tube joints. Incidentally is it French or English BB?

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Doosh on 18 August, 2011, 03:05:35 pm
Ha ha! bone of contention that one Dave!

I've yet to find a sufficient 14mm tool to remove the crank bolts (none of mine fit into the dust cap recess  ::-)) and not being old enough to have any experience of the old cup and cone BBs I can't tell just by looking.

I'm starting to think it's a 501 frame that some sneaky git has stuck a 531 sticker on, all the other identical models I've found all seem to be 501.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: MacB on 19 August, 2011, 12:38:01 pm
Dave, I've been following a few threads around frame geometry and specifically ST angles. Searching the web brings up all sorts of posts from people trying to get their saddles far enough back. It also seems to me, watching the TdF in recent years, that there is more of a trend for saddles to be lower and further back. Looking at some of the detailed bike specs there are some serious lay back seatposts in use.

I think I understand the theory behind using smaller frames and long stems around handling, weight, etc...not saying I go with them though. But I'd be curious to know if there is some sort of advantage/disadvantage around seat tube angles and seatpost setbacks? For example:-

I have my saddle top about 79cm from the centre of the BB and I find, at this height, that each degree of ST angle equates to 10mm of fore/aft position. So using a Brooks saddle all the way back, on a 71 deg ST with an inline seatpost, to replicate this position on a 73 degree ST I'd need 20mm of layback on the seatpost...roughly, my trig isn't the best.

I'd be really interested to hear your views on this area?

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 27 August, 2011, 11:37:24 pm
Dave, I've been following a few threads around frame geometry and specifically ST angles. Searching the web brings up all sorts of posts from people trying to get their saddles far enough back. It also seems to me, watching the TdF in recent years, that there is more of a trend for saddles to be lower and further back. Looking at some of the detailed bike specs there are some serious lay back seatposts in use.

I think I understand the theory behind using smaller frames and long stems around handling, weight, etc...not saying I go with them though. But I'd be curious to know if there is some sort of advantage/disadvantage around seat tube angles and seatpost setbacks? For example:-

I have my saddle top about 79cm from the centre of the BB and I find, at this height, that each degree of ST angle equates to 10mm of fore/aft position. So using a Brooks saddle all the way back, on a 71 deg ST with an inline seatpost, to replicate this position on a 73 degree ST I'd need 20mm of layback on the seatpost...roughly, my trig isn't the best.

I'd be really interested to hear your views on this area?

Now then Mr MacB

First, appologies for delay, I had a course on last week and was totally knackered at the end of each day. Never seemed to get the computer on, just fell asleep in front of the telly after taking the puppy out for "training"
I am afraid the latest "fashions" in bike design pass me by, I do it the way I have always done it because I know it works for most of the people most of the time.
You have missed out the most important bits of info. How tall are you and what is your inside leg measurement. What are you using the bike for, eg club runs, shopping or world championships? You cannot do this by numbers as there are too many variables. I usually want to see the "body" I am working with. When I am designing a frame I always get the saddle position (height and fore and aft) right first then work forward. I subscribe to the theory that seat angle is a function of thigh length. I try and get the front of the knee over the pedal spindle, a touch further forward for a "racing" position.  I do this because it works for most of my customers and always has. My customers tend to be Mr and Ms average cyclists. They need to be set up in a sensible position to be comfortable partaking in whatever riding they do. I have never liked extreme, fadish, fashions, they dont work for most people. My advice would be unless you are racing at a high level (in which case talk to your coach) or in discomfort stop worrying about it and go and ride your bike ;D.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Domestique on 06 September, 2011, 04:40:06 pm
Replacing a seat tube?
I have a rather nice frame here, with very nice lug work. It is a Les Ephgrave with #2 lugs.
The problem is there is a dent in the seat tube. It’s low enough not to cause problems with the seat post but at some point I would like to replace the seat tube. What are the risks with fancy lug work when replacing a seat tube or is it a relatively straight forward job for a frame builder  :-\
Thanks in advance, I will try and put the bike on the work stand and take a few pictures later
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 09 September, 2011, 09:36:59 pm
Replacing a seat tube?
I have a rather nice frame here, with very nice lug work. It is a Les Ephgrave with #2 lugs.
The problem is there is a dent in the seat tube. It’s low enough not to cause problems with the seat post but at some point I would like to replace the seat tube. What are the risks with fancy lug work when replacing a seat tube or is it a relatively straight forward job for a frame builder  :-\
Thanks in advance, I will try and put the bike on the work stand and take a few pictures later

Hi Domestique

Replacing a seat tube is always a difficult job as there are so many other tubes in the vicinity at both ends. Fancy lugs even more so!!! However a dent does not necessarily mean a new tube. I have done a lot of this repair simply by inserting a mandrel into the seat tube and planishing the dent out. Assuming it is 531 (a reasonable assumption) then this is perfectly safe and a lot less damaging to the frame. It depends of course on the severity of the dent. I have managed to do this on several occaisions without serious damage to the paint.
A picture would certainly help to assess if this is feasible.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Domestique on 10 September, 2011, 11:10:54 am
Hi Dave
Thanks for the info. I have uploaded some pictures, to try to clarify. Imo its not a big dent.
Its badged as a Holdsworth, but frame number is LE3619
Many thanks for help
Pen

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6132651272_ac10f65e31.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132651272/)
DSCF2676 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132651272/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6182/6132106989_dcc540b5b6.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132106989/)
DSCF2683 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132106989/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6192/6132652988_4f8efaf98d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132652988/)
DSCF2680 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132652988/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6132654562_174ede663f.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132654562/)
DSCF2685 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132654562/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: dippy2 on 10 September, 2011, 12:26:12 pm
Hi Dave

When installing a Phil Wood stainless steel Bottom Bracket with Alloy BB shells in Van Nicholas Amazon Titanium frame, should I use the Phil Wood supplied threadlock or as normal practice dictates just use grease for ease of future disassembly.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Efrogwr on 10 September, 2011, 12:30:18 pm
so, it has Holdsworth on the frame. However it looks like an Ephgrave to me. Frame number, lugs and the funny extra bits on the seat stay top eyes all say Ephgrave. It's worth restoring; some reckon that Les Ephgrave was the only real competitor to Hetchins.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 10 September, 2011, 11:17:53 pm
Hi Dave
Thanks for the info. I have uploaded some pictures, to try to clarify. Imo its not a big dent.
Its badged as a Holdsworth, but frame number is LE3619
Many thanks for help
Pen


Definately an Ephgrave and fixable by the method I mentioned  ;D Probably can be done without much paint damage as well.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 10 September, 2011, 11:24:29 pm
Hi Dave

When installing a Phil Wood stainless steel Bottom Bracket with Alloy BB shells in Van Nicholas Amazon Titanium frame, should I use the Phil Wood supplied threadlock or as normal practice dictates just use grease for ease of future disassembly.

Many thanks.

Hi Dippy

I have not had a whole lot of experience with ti stuff but I do know it takes very little to make it gall and pick up on a mating surface. I would favour a decent synthetic grease. Threadlock tends to go hard and it would only take a bit in the wrong place to cause disaster on disassembly. As long as you tighten to the recomended torque it should be fine.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Domestique on 11 September, 2011, 07:28:45 am
Dave
Many thanks for the reply. We should be contacting you via the workshop at sometime when funds permit.
All the best
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: dippy2 on 13 September, 2011, 11:29:32 am
Quote
Hi Dippy

I have not had a whole lot of experience with ti stuff but I do know it takes very little to make it gall and pick up on a mating surface. I would favour a decent synthetic grease. Threadlock tends to go hard and it would only take a bit in the wrong place to cause disaster on disassembly. As long as you tighten to the recomended torque it should be fine.

Dave Yates

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, much appreciated
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 13 September, 2011, 11:34:54 am
so, it has Holdsworth on the frame. However it looks like an Ephgrave to me. Frame number, lugs and the funny extra bits on the seat stay top eyes all say Ephgrave. It's worth restoring; some reckon that Les Ephgrave was the only real competitor to Hetchins.

If DY says it's an Ephgrave, that's good enough for me! ;D

Beautiful framebuilding.  For me, and apologies to those present, Ephgrave was the best ever builder.  Every frame is a work of art.  It's great news that Dave is confident he can repair this one and get it back to it's true glory.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 15 September, 2011, 11:48:42 pm
Hi Dave
Thanks for the info. I have uploaded some pictures, to try to clarify. Imo its not a big dent.
Its badged as a Holdsworth, but frame number is LE3619
Many thanks for help
Pen

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6132651272_ac10f65e31.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132651272/)
DSCF2676 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132651272/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6182/6132106989_dcc540b5b6.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132106989/)
DSCF2683 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132106989/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6192/6132652988_4f8efaf98d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132652988/)
DSCF2680 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132652988/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6132654562_174ede663f.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132654562/)
DSCF2685 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9350786@N06/6132654562/) by Domestique2007 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9350786@N06/), on Flickr

What an absolutely gorgeous frame.  It looks like it might be a Les Ephgrave No. 1 Super, the pinnacle of Ephgraves and very highly sought after.  Well worth restoring and doing some serious research on. 
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: nuovo_record on 22 September, 2011, 11:18:53 am
heres a bit of info - sorry to drag the threasd a bit further away from the main question
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/ephgrave-builders.html
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: matthew on 23 September, 2011, 05:21:17 pm
Dave,

So I dropped the chain on my fixed on Wednesday at about 24mph. Once freed and reset I got on to ride home and noticed an unusual amount of flex at the bottom bracket.

The frame is an circa 1990 British Eagle Touristique and 531ST throughout.

Closer inspection in a work stand today has revealed that there are tension cracks in the paint on inside of the right chain stay and that the outside has rippled, vernier calipers also suggest that the tube is misshapen. Added to this an inspection with a straight edge indicates that the right hand seat stay is bowed from the bridge to the dropout (worst at the canti boss) and the left hand seat stay is bent at the brake bridge.

what is the prognosis?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 23 September, 2011, 09:06:14 pm
Dave,

So I dropped the chain on my fixed on Wednesday at about 24mph. Once freed and reset I got on to ride home and noticed an unusual amount of flex at the bottom bracket.

The frame is an circa 1990 British Eagle Touristique and 531ST throughout.

Closer inspection in a work stand today has revealed that there are tension cracks in the paint on inside of the right chain stay and that the outside has rippled, vernier calipers also suggest that the tube is misshapen. Added to this an inspection with a straight edge indicates that the right hand seat stay is bowed from the bridge to the dropout (worst at the canti boss) and the left hand seat stay is bent at the brake bridge.

what is the prognosis?

Sounds like the back end has been pulled across to the right.  Quick check is to tie a piece of string to  one rear dropout, take it around the head tube and back to the other dropout making sure that it passes on the outside of the dropout on each side and is tight. Measure from the string to the seat tube on both sides. If the dropouts are equally disposed about the centre line of the frame then the measurements will be equal. If they are not then something is bent !!! Depending on the severity of the bend it is probably straightenable, however without seeing at least some pics I cant give you a definitive answer. 531 is remarkably forgiving and I have done dreadful things to customers frames to straighten them after similar mishaps and they have given years more service.
If you can post some pics I will be able to give you a more accurate answer.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: matthew on 23 September, 2011, 09:27:58 pm
Dave

Thanks for a quick answer, here are two photos of the right chain stay,

Inside, stress cracks in paint:

(http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt207/matthew_streeter/IMGP4486.jpg)

Outside ripples:

(http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt207/matthew_streeter/IMGP4489.jpg)

Thank you for the tip about the string measurement I will check that in the morning..

Edit to Add:

Measured the tracking with the string technique. Left hand side 28.5mm Right hand side 35mm.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 25 September, 2011, 11:32:28 pm
Dave

Thanks for a quick answer, here are two photos of the right chain stay,

Inside, stress cracks in paint:

Outside ripples:

Thank you for the tip about the string measurement I will check that in the morning..

Edit to Add:

Measured the tracking with the string technique. Left hand side 28.5mm Right hand side 35mm.

Yep, you have zapped that good and proper :o
However,----------------
I have straightened worse than that in the past  ;D
Strictly speaking it needs a new chainstay and paint, the cost of which is probably more than the frame is worth. If you can live with a slightly distorted chainstay it should be possible to get the frame back in track and as long as there are no creases in the metal it will be perfectly serviceable. As mentioned previously I have done several jobs of the same type which were successful.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: matthew on 26 September, 2011, 10:55:46 am
Dave

thank you for your advice, I had reached the same conclusion about needing a new chainstay and paint.  :facepalm:
As you say I could probably replace the frame for less but I know and really like the ride of this frame geometry and doubt I could get a new frame to match easily. It is therefore probably heading back to mercian who repaired the seat stay seat tube brazes that failed 10 years ago. Though I need to look up your website for comparison.

Though as I am not taking it onto a University campus each day the new paint job doesn't have to be as understated.  :D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 26 September, 2011, 11:13:24 pm
Matthew

If you really like the frame then that is a perfectly good reason to get it fixed. This is the beauty of steel frames, no matter what happens to them they are fixable. Mercian will do a very good job, they have had more practice than me  ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 12 October, 2011, 08:16:24 am
Dave

thank you for your advice, I had reached the same conclusion about needing a new chainstay and paint.  :facepalm:
As you say I could probably replace the frame for less but I know and really like the ride of this frame geometry and doubt I could get a new frame to match easily. It is therefore probably heading back to mercian who repaired the seat stay seat tube brazes that failed 10 years ago. Though I need to look up your website for comparison.

Though as I am not taking it onto a University campus each day the new paint job doesn't have to be as understated.  :D

I've a BE Touristique (1987).  A much better ride than I expected when I bought it off ebay for 50 squid and I have spent quite a bit on it since. 
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: sletti on 27 October, 2011, 11:34:46 am
I have a lug question for the Mater Jedi, Dave Yates.

I am thinking of a frame for building next year and I am very much a lover of steel. I love the look of chrome lugs, bit as I read around I see you can get much the same effect from polished stainless steel.

What would be the material pros/cons for choosing stainless lugs, over non-stainless lugs and having them chromed?

Thanks

Stig
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 27 October, 2011, 11:30:59 pm
Hi Stig

How did you know I am a Jedi Master  ;D

Chrome is horrible stuff  :o. I say that from the point of view of a builder not in the aesthetic sense. The processes involved in chroming are not kind to a frame, abrasive and corrosive and having to trust the frame to a third party to have the process carried out. Having said that it looks fantastic on a classic frame and assuming the frame is made from reasonably robust tube and the chroming is done by someone who knows what they are doing it will probably be OK. We have a large disclaimer on our price list regarding chrome which basically says "We will chrome plate it if you want but if it breaks dont bring it back we dont want to know !!!"
Stainless components, if polished well look just as good as chrome and this has the advantage of no nasty chemicals coming in contact with the frame tubes and no chance of any rusting. However, to polish a stainless component takes a long time hence more money and from a builders point of view is a bit of a pig to work with. Silver solder is the best way to join stainless so with the current price of silver this is going to add anything from £60 to £100 to the frame  so it is going to cost lots more if you want a decent job done.
Essentially you pays yer money etc.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Do or not do, there is no "try"
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: sletti on 28 October, 2011, 09:51:37 am
Do or not do, there is no "try"

Only a true Jedi Master could sum life up so well. :thumbsup: I have seen pictues of you and you hide you green skin and diminutive stature well. ;D

Thanks for heads up on shiny stuff. I appreciate the corrosive chemicals involved in Chrome plating, but I had not considered that it may limit the thickness of the tube walls you could safely apply it to. As I have no desire for a frame made out of recycled scaffold poles, so I think you may have helped me rule chroming out. Mind you, looking at the Mercian cyles prices, chroming lugs, crown and dropouts is gonna cost well north of £200.

I assume if the stainless lugs are sourced (I have my eyes on a snappy set of Fleur de Lys lugs at Ceeway) then could their polishing be farmed out prior to the commencement of the build?

My other question concerns tubing diameters. I have a 531c Allin frame built for me umpteen years ago by Cliff Shrubb. It is a lovely thing with a joyous ride, but at 24" Seat tube length it has always been a little whippy. When time trialling in the 80s this was not that big an issue because my 6'3"only weighed a paltry 9st 6lbs. 20 years of sex drugs and rock and roll (well, pasties and kebabs and rock and roll in reality) see me carrying a good 15st and I think this may be making my bike feel even more whippy. I could well be imagining it, but I got to thinking about oversize tubing (still retained within and oversize set of Fley Di Lys lugs). How much of a difference to the ride would oversize tubing make?

And one more question; do your Jedi powers stretch to the manipulation of time as I would love to attend your framebulding course, and you are booked up until the next glacial epoch?

And many thanks for making yourself available to answer questions on a forum.

Stig
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 28 October, 2011, 11:42:59 pm
Do or not do, there is no "try"

Only a true Jedi Master could sum life up so well. :thumbsup: I have seen pictues of you and you hide you green skin and diminutive stature well. ;D

Green skin and pointy ears are so last year  ;)

Thanks for heads up on shiny stuff. I appreciate the corrosive chemicals involved in Chrome plating, but I had not considered that it may limit the thickness of the tube walls you could safely apply it to. As I have no desire for a frame made out of recycled scaffold poles, so I think you may have helped me rule chroming out. Mind you, looking at the Mercian cyles prices, chroming lugs, crown and dropouts is gonna cost well north of £200.

The wall thickness aspect is really about the polishing prior to the plating process. If you consider that a 725 double taper seat stay is only .6mm wall thickness on a good day and that a cack handed polisher can take .2mm off in some areas you will see the problem, not enough metal left :o

I assume if the stainless lugs are sourced (I have my eyes on a snappy set of Fleur de Lys lugs at Ceeway) then could their polishing be farmed out prior to the commencement of the build?

That can be done, actually it is best to do it that way.

My other question concerns tubing diameters. I have a 531c Allin frame built for me umpteen years ago by Cliff Shrubb. It is a lovely thing with a joyous ride, but at 24" Seat tube length it has always been a little whippy. When time trialling in the 80s this was not that big an issue because my 6'3"only weighed a paltry 9st 6lbs. 20 years of sex drugs and rock and roll (well, pasties and kebabs and rock and roll in reality) see me carrying a good 15st and I think this may be making my bike feel even more whippy. I could well be imagining it, but I got to thinking about oversize tubing (still retained within and oversize set of Fley Di Lys lugs). How much of a difference to the ride would oversize tubing make?

A significant difference, also modern tube is better than 531 so  "oversize" (1 1/4" dt, 1 1/8" tt) in 631 will be significantly better, an 853 DT on a frame that size would be better still.

And one more question; do your Jedi powers stretch to the manipulation of time as I would love to attend your framebulding course, and you are booked up until the next glacial epoch?

Alas such matters are out of my control as SWMBO has the executive power over the diary. If I attempted to meddle retribution would be swift and terrible, well, at least no biscuits for the workshop for a week. Also any attempt at manipulating time will invoke the Arcturian paradox which states that no Jedi framebuilder can be in two places at once (I have tried and ended up back where I started from with an upside down frame)

And many thanks for making yourself available to answer questions on a forum.

You are very welcome

Stig

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: sletti on 29 October, 2011, 12:50:35 pm
Thanks Dave.

Alas such matters are out of my control as SWMBO has the executive power over the diary. If I attempted to meddle retribution would be swift and terrible, well, at least no biscuits for the workshop for a week. Also any attempt at manipulating time will invoke the Arcturian paradox which states that no Jedi framebuilder can be in two places at once (I have tried and ended up back where I started from with an upside down frame)[/color]

When a man, Jedi or otherwise, had a deep and lasting love of his art, it is important that the Memsaab forces him to not let his heart rule his head, and get talked into offering that which is either impractical or impossible, so I utterly understand your position. I shall hope that you have a cancellation before your calendar is re-opened for bookings. And woe betide those who attempt to invoke a paradox of Arcturian proportions, but I hadn't considered the possibilities of quantum entanglement and supersymetry, and that perhaps in a parallel universe there is another Dave Yates who assembles frames from thin walled granite which are joined with a mixture of Pangolin bile and sarcasm. Either way I'll bet it would be a pig to chrome. ;D

But if I could ask a few more question. If you pre-polish the seat lug, how would you recommend attaching the seat stays. I rather like the look of a stay top that is shot into the seat bolt but I guess you would have problems concerning where the polished finish would stop and the painted finish would start. Would it be best to use a traditional top eye type fastening for this, or could you join the stays to the seat  tube below the polished seat lug itself?

Now for a more hypothetical question. I like the look of a classic frame, in particularly those old frames where the chain stays, seatstays and fork blades are half chromed. Is it possible to achieve this effect with stainless tubing, or is, as in your 725 chroming example, the polishing process too likely to compromise the mechanical properties/integrity of the tubing?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 October, 2011, 01:01:52 pm
Wouldn't it be possible for the bike owner to polish dropouts and lugs post-build?  I use aluminum oxide powder on a leather strop for sharpening woodcarving knives, and it brings them up to a mirror polish.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 October, 2011, 11:21:55 pm
Quote
perhaps in a parallel universe there is another Dave Yates who assembles frames from thin walled granite which are joined with a mixture of Pangolin bile and sarcasm. Either way I'll bet it would be a pig to chrome.

I have glimpsed this parallel universe through a crack in the blaster cabinet. The material is indeed granite but my alter ego joins it with a mixture of Ardvark saliva and irony (its much stronger that aluminiumy) and it is in fact a pig that does the chroming  ;D

Quote
But if I could ask a few more question. If you pre-polish the seat lug, how would you recommend attaching the seat stays. I rather like the look of a stay top that is shot into the seat bolt but I guess you would have problems concerning where the polished finish would stop and the painted finish would start. Would it be best to use a traditional top eye type fastening for this, or could you join the stays to the seat  tube below the polished seat lug itself?

IMHO best way would be to part polish the lug, build frame, stick the seat stays onto the bolt then finish the polishing after the flux is washed off

Quote
Now for a more hypothetical question. I like the look of a classic frame, in particularly those old frames where the chain stays, seatstays and fork blades are half chromed. Is it possible to achieve this effect with stainless tubing, or is, as in your 725 chroming example, the polishing process too likely to compromise the mechanical properties/integrity of the tubing?

This really depends on the person doing the polishing. Possible but expensive as the Reynolds 953 stainless is horrendously expensive plus the polishing time.

Live long and prosper

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 October, 2011, 11:37:38 pm
Wouldn't it be possible for the bike owner to polish dropouts and lugs post-build?  I use aluminum oxide powder on a leather strop for sharpening woodcarving knives, and it brings them up to a mirror polish.

It would indeed be possible for the frame owner to do this. It would take some time but if you are not working under commercial pressure then you can take as long as you like. The surface on cast lugs is usually pretty good but you would still need to go down through the grades of abrasive to get a good polish. BUT DO NOT TOUCH THE TUBES  :hand:
 I too use the leather strop technique but I use a mixture of jewellers rouge and Solvol Autosol. As well as making frames I also make custom knives, to polish the blades I start with 240 grit wet and dry wrapped around various wooden sticks then work down through the grades ie 320, 400, 600, 1000, 1200. I put the edge on with either a fine diamond stone or a Japanese water stone then an Arkasas stone with oil then the leather strop which as you know puts a fine polish on the edge. When it shaves the hairs off my arm I am happy

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 30 October, 2011, 11:44:45 pm
As well as making frames I also make custom knives

Can I order a Dave Yates chef's knife?  Seriously?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Oaky on 30 October, 2011, 11:46:06 pm
As well as making frames I also make custom knives.....

... I bet that quote set "oooh shiny!!! want!!!" alarms ringing in a good few forummers minds :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Oaky on 30 October, 2011, 11:47:33 pm
As well as making frames I also make custom knives

Can I order a Dave Yates chef's knife?  Seriously?

Um... +1!!!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 31 October, 2011, 11:30:54 pm
As well as making frames I also make custom knives

Can I order a Dave Yates chef's knife?  Seriously?

Alas Tewdric (and Oaky) I only dabble for my own amazement. Everything I have made up to now have been Bushcraft / outdoordsy style. I have never attempted a chefs knife or any othe kitchen type. All have been made from 01 gauge plate which is the classic beginners metal. I would guess that a chefs knife needs to be made of some sort of stainless, way outside of my current experience. The other problem is one of time, each one of the knives in the picture below, apart from the little kiridashi,  took the better part of the time it takes me to build a frame as I have to do most of it by hand. (A belt grinder is on the drawing board but that is as far as it has got) So at the moment it makes no commercial sense to make knives, where I dont really know what I am doing, rather than frames, where I do have a bit of a clue.

Cheers

Dave Yates

(http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo178/daveyates42/Knives/Knives.jpg)

Edit

The handles, for those interested, left to right, antler brass and aluminium, buffalo horn, flat leather lace wrap, African Ebony and aluminium (prchased damascus blade) and burr walnut
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 01 November, 2011, 08:38:31 pm
Hi Dave, I have a question.  Colour no. 28 on your colour chart - what happened?  I'm assuming it's pearlescent orange? 
It is actually Flamboyant Orange and alas I can no longer do that as the tin I had is finished and I cant get any more
You built me a beautiful 631 Super Randonneur a few years back in this colour.  People often comment about the colour, even non-cyclists admire it's sparkly beauty.  Why does no one have good taste any more?  ::-) ;D

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder  ;D

Seriously, what's your view on the current dash for titanium?  When you built my frame it was the thing to have (and IMO still is).  But as usual with me, it went out of fashion the very next day.  :-[

The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike?  Well, nearly everyone.  I'm not about to change and I've never ridden a Ti frame, but, in your opinion, is there any real advantage to them?
I too have never ridden a titanium frame so I can only comment from a theoretical standpoint. Talking to people that own then seems to indicate that they give a nice ride and they dont rust. By and large you cannot get a true custom Ti frame, ie talk to the builder and specify every last detail. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me otherwise  ;D. There are probably American builders doing this but the cost will be astronomical. So the option for most is one of the many off the peg frames about and if that is what you want then fine !!! Down side is if it breaks or you have a crash and it is damaged, getting it repaired is a real nightmare not to say expensive if you can find  someone to repair it.
There is a difference between "want" and "need" we dont actually need most of what we want but if aquiring what you want makes you happy then go for it !!!!! Cycling is a very fashion conscious pastime so flavour of the month will always be an influence

Long live custom built steel.  Long live colourful frames.  :thumbsup:

I'll drink to that


Cheers

Dave Yates

There was a french builder, Pilorget I think, who was offering a custom building service on titanium a few years ago. He had gone to a lot of trouble investing in the necessary equipment for welding in a totally controlled atmosphere. It is a few years since I saw the article on him so I don't know if he is still doing this but I don't see why not (although I am not trying to find out, I am not in that sort of market).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 01 November, 2011, 11:20:42 pm
Quote
There was a french builder, Pilorget I think, who was offering a custom building service on titanium a few years ago. He had gone to a lot of trouble investing in the necessary equipment for welding in a totally controlled atmosphere. It is a few years since I saw the article on him so I don't know if he is still doing this but I don't see why not (although I am not trying to find out, I am not in that sort of market).


Now then Mr mzjo,

I seem to remember such a guy now I think about it. I believe he had a sort of Argon chamber made of polythene sheet on a frame over his welding bench. The trick with ti is not to let atmospheric oxygen anywhere near hot titanium so you either use some sort of chamber filled with the shielding gas or a huge cup on your torch with complicated backpurging connections to the tubes to fill them with gas, either way it is expensive. Add to that the complication of one off sizing and the problem of producing such frames is quite large. Welded joints really need to be fitted very accurately so are ideally done on a milling machine set up of some description. Once you have the set up it makes a lot of sense to run a batch rather than just one tube. It depends on the definition of "custom" as to how the builder proceeds. My definition is start with a blank sheet of paper and every aspect of the frame is specifyable. Other builders define custom as "pick your own colour" ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: border-rider on 01 November, 2011, 11:32:17 pm
By and large you cannot get a true custom Ti frame, ie talk to the builder and specify every last detail. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me otherwise  ;D. There are probably American builders doing this but the cost will be astronomical.

I have a totally custom Ti frame; it did indeed come from the US but the cost was (at the time) rather less than a good UK custom steel frame.  Dearer now, of course, because of the exchange rate
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Hot Flatus on 02 November, 2011, 06:56:07 am
I have a custom Ti frame. It cost me bugger all (£250) ordered direct from China
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 02 November, 2011, 07:45:14 am
Like I said, someone will be along to tell me otherwise  ;D

In both cases, did the price include getting the frame into this country ?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Salvatore on 02 November, 2011, 08:08:43 am
And there's Darren Crisp (http://www.crisptitanium.com/) in Tuscany.  All one-off. Upwards of 3000 euros for frame+fork.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Hot Flatus on 02 November, 2011, 08:22:15 am
Like I said, someone will be along to tell me otherwise  ;D

In both cases, did the price include getting the frame into this country ?

Yes, although it was about 4 years ago. I think it would be almost double that now due to exchange rate changes. Of course, there is no warranty whatsoever, no pedigree and quality control is probably nonexistent. You get what you pay for, although sometimes you can pay a lot more for the same.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 02 November, 2011, 05:21:34 pm
And there's Darren Crisp (http://www.crisptitanium.com/) in Tuscany.  All one-off. Upwards of 3000 euros for frame+fork.

The french builder I was thinking of would have been in the same price range, possibly more expensive, but he offered the same service with Ti that he did with steel. Yes, Dave, I think we are probably talking of  the same man. He insisted that most of the cheaper builders didn't purge and plug the insides of the tubes correctly before welding.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mike on 02 November, 2011, 05:34:38 pm
Like I said, someone will be along to tell me otherwise  ;D

In both cases, did the price include getting the frame into this country ?

Yes, although it was about 4 years ago. I think it would be almost double that now due to exchange rate changes. Of course, there is no warranty whatsoever, no pedigree and quality control is probably nonexistent. You get what you pay for, although sometimes you can pay a lot more for the same.

+1, I got two at about the same time.  Very happy with them and have done many 000's of miles between them. I believe JJ of this parish did PBP on one from the same supplier.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: JJ on 07 November, 2011, 06:17:11 pm
I did, and I like the result very much, although it took me about half a lifetime of sending drawings back and forth to get it just how I wanted it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: sletti on 08 November, 2011, 11:09:54 am
How do these dropouts work? Does the smaller part solder/braze on to the larger part once the rear geometry is established?

(http://ceeway.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20D6.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 08 November, 2011, 11:08:36 pm
How do these dropouts work? Does the smaller part solder/braze on to the larger part once the rear geometry is established?

(http://ceeway.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20D6.jpg)

Exactly that !! The pivot on the seatstay socket allows for a range of different seat tube lengths and still gets a perfect fit of seat stay into socket. I normally braze eveything solid and file / grind the joint flush so it disapears and the dropout is as one piece.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: sletti on 05 December, 2011, 04:06:19 pm
How do these dropouts work? Does the smaller part solder/braze on to the larger part once the rear geometry is established?

(http://ceeway.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20D6.jpg)

Exactly that !! The pivot on the seatstay socket allows for a range of different seat tube lengths and still gets a perfect fit of seat stay into socket. I normally braze eveything solid and file / grind the joint flush so it disapears and the dropout is as one piece.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Out of curiosity, could the recessed parts of the dropout be removed to make a lighter looking end, or would that adversely affect the strength of the part?

And to what extent does the "socketed" nature of the unions with chainstay and seatstay affect the choice of tubing?

Thanks

Stig
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 05 December, 2011, 11:35:26 pm
Hi Stig

Quote
Out of curiosity, could the recessed parts of the dropout be removed to make a lighter looking end, or would that adversely affect the strength of the part?

It could, I personally would not unless the rider was very light. I have seen too many dropouts break to risk it.

Quote
to what extent does the "socketed" nature of the unions with chainstay and seatstay affect the choice of tubing?

The tube has to fit the socket reasonably closely. If the builder is using silver then a good fit is essential. A "good" fit in this case is up to about 5 thou clearance. Brass on the other hand can cope with rather larger gaps, anything up tp 20 thou (thats 0.5mm for the metrically inclined). A tight fit in both cases is a big no no.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: sletti on 07 December, 2011, 02:21:37 pm
The tube has to fit the socket reasonably closely. If the builder is using silver then a good fit is essential. A "good" fit in this case is up to about 5 thou clearance. Brass on the other hand can cope with rather larger gaps, anything up tp 20 thou (thats 0.5mm for the metrically inclined). A tight fit in both cases is a big no no.

Is the size of the gap twixt socket and tube to do with capillary action and how this relates to the specific viscosities of molten silver solder and brass?

Or is it down to the cost of Silver?

If you say the latter you may attract accusations you of being tighter than an Ewok's chuff! ;D ;D ;D

Stig
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 07 December, 2011, 11:19:55 pm
It is to do with the relative "strength" of the joining material. The commonly used 56% silver alloy is relatively weak compared to brass. The gap filling properties of this material are poor due to the fluid nature of the molten silver alloy. Accepted wisdom is a gap bigger than about 5 thou results in a weaker joint. Brass on the other hand is rather more viscous when it melts allowing it to fill gaps  and build fillets. With a tight joint you run the risk of no penetration and hence a potentially fallible joint.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: MacB on 08 December, 2011, 06:04:50 pm
Dave, I was mooching on your site last night and noticed the use of some Paragon Sliders in a build on the custom frames gallery page. Though I have no real need I have a strong hankering for a SS steel frame in bright green that I could mix with red and black parts for my perfect colour scheme. Aesthetically I don't like the sliders but I do like their Rocker dropouts and I'd also want to go with disc brakes. The ability to mix and match inserts for SS, geared or hubgear/Rohloff is attractive as well. So the questions, finally ;D:-

1. can you offer the rocker style as a build option?
2. do you have a personal preference/rating on types of dropouts/EBBs for tensioning purposes?
3. I'd quite like all steel but I don't see steel disc forks as an option on your site. Is it a case of carbon or buying some bog standard straight blade steel unicrown ones?
4. If it was steel unicrown ones can they be painted to match the frame?

Appreciate this may be more sales orientated so just say if I should contact you via your site instead....thanks...Al
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 08 December, 2011, 06:53:50 pm
Al

Quote
1. can you offer the rocker style as a build option?

If you get them I will build with them.

Quote
2. do you have a personal preference/rating on types of dropouts/EBBs for tensioning purposes?

No, Its all one to me, customers choice

Quote
3. I'd quite like all steel but I don't see steel disc forks as an option on your site. Is it a case of carbon or buying some bog standard straight blade steel unicrown ones?

I dont do steel road forks for disc brakes. There are no blades available from Reynolds or Columbus that are suitable

Quote
4. If it was steel unicrown ones can they be painted to match the frame?

Yes !!!

Cheers

Dave Yates

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: MacB on 11 December, 2011, 04:56:15 pm
Thanks Dave, most helpful, seems like I'll have to wait though, I only got my newsletter indicating new stock available on the rocker dropouts a few days ago. They've sold out again already, I'm guessing a lot of backorders as they'd been waiting on new machinery.

In the meantime though  ;D can I ask you some general stuff around chainstay lengths and clearances. Is there any sort of formula to know what length you require for a given level of tyre clearance? Looking around at manufacturers specs and there seems to be a variety of lengths that claim big clearances, without resorting to bendy seat tubes etc. When I play around in CAD the dimensions I get just show the distance from tyre to ST at the shortest point. Assuming that in that space you want to fit guards and a derailluer, is their a minimum that it should be?

For example, if I want a 73 degree seatube, the Rocker dropouts and comfortable clearance for 700x40 tyres with full mudguards. Though the rockers increase CS length by 17mm I'd want the full clearance available in the shortest setting.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 12 December, 2011, 07:32:12 am
In the meantime though  ;D can I ask you some general stuff around chainstay lengths and clearances. Is there any sort of formula to know what length you require for a given level of tyre clearance? Looking around at manufacturers specs and there seems to be a variety of lengths that claim big clearances, without resorting to bendy seat tubes etc. When I play around in CAD the dimensions I get just show the distance from tyre to ST at the shortest point. Assuming that in that space you want to fit guards and a derailluer, is their a minimum that it should be?

For example, if I want a 73 degree seatube, the Rocker dropouts and comfortable clearance for 700x40 tyres with full mudguards. Though the rockers increase CS length by 17mm I'd want the full clearance available in the shortest setting.

I dont do "formulas"  :o With specific reqirements like this I take the rolling radius of the wheel, in this case I would guess around 350mm, add an allowance for mudguards and front mech, say 25+mm and set the jig up so the axle centre to seat tube is 375ish with the seat angle and BB height as required. See what it looks like, if I am happy with it I cut the chainstays to fit. The BB height or drop has a significant effect on the clearance. For a given chainstay length and seat angle raising the BB increases the clearance and vice versa.
As I have mentioned before, my "system" is very subjective, wet finger in the wind tempered by experience. If it looks right it probably is.
 I thought a cad was a fellow of dubious morals  ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: MacB on 12 December, 2011, 08:47:37 am
Aha, that actually makes sense, my bumbling efforts had told me that I wanted about a 30mm gap to ensure comfortable clearance for guards, derailleurs, etc.....thank you again...and I don't really think you're a CAD  ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bledlow on 15 December, 2011, 03:28:03 pm
I was wondering if there's any way to tell whether the integrity of a frame has been compromised by internal rust. There's nothing obviously wrong with it from the outside, but there is some rust inside. It rings like a new frame if pinged. Reynolds 531c, a small Orbit frame. Pretty light rider, not used for over a year but stored indoors in a warm dry place.

Also, how easy is it to adjust the rear triangle? At some time in the past the rear stays have been spread to fit a wider hub (it was probably built for 5 speed, now had 7), but it's not straight. When viewed from behind, the back wheel is visibly off line. It doesn't seem to affect its handling, to my surprise. The rider has never noticed it. Is it best left as it is, or should I try to get it straight?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Crepello on 15 December, 2011, 07:26:18 pm
Also, how easy is it to adjust the rear triangle? At some time in the past the rear stays have been spread to fit a wider hub (it was probably built for 5 speed, now had 7), but it's not straight. When viewed from behind, the back wheel is visibly off line. It doesn't seem to affect its handling, to my surprise. The rider has never noticed it. Is it best left as it is, or should I try to get it straight?
Which side is the wheel biased to? Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left.

Are there any disadvantages with this approach I wonder? Neutral wheel dishing would seem like a good idea.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 December, 2011, 08:06:43 pm
I was wondering if there's any way to tell whether the integrity of a frame has been compromised by internal rust. There's nothing obviously wrong with it from the outside, but there is some rust inside. It rings like a new frame if pinged. Reynolds 531c, a small Orbit frame. Pretty light rider, not used for over a year but stored indoors in a warm dry place.

Also, how easy is it to adjust the rear triangle? At some time in the past the rear stays have been spread to fit a wider hub (it was probably built for 5 speed, now had 7), but it's not straight. When viewed from behind, the back wheel is visibly off line. It doesn't seem to affect its handling, to my surprise. The rider has never noticed it. Is it best left as it is, or should I try to get it straight?

You cant really tell without some pretty sophisticated kit. If the paint is blistering it is a fair indication that the tube is rusted through. If so, poke it with something sharp ie scriber or knife point to see if the metal is sound. If all appears well on the outside then give the inside of the tubes a blast with Waxoyl. This will not get rid of the rust but it will stop it getting any worse.

Regarding the back end, first check the wheel, with a dish gauge if you have access to one or by reversing it left to right if not. If the wheel is okay then check the dropout disposition using the string test ie piece of string from one dropout round the head tube to the other dropout. Measure the distance from string to seat tube on both sides. If the same then fine, if not then the frame is out of track. 531 frames should be easy to re track but if, as Crepello says some Orbit frames were built assymetrically then you are stuck with it and need to get the wheel re dished to fit.
I built several ATB frames this way in the 80's but most people do not grasp the concept and I got a couple of calls from subsequent buyers of the frames on the second hand market complaining about the poor building !!!!!!!!!

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bledlow on 16 December, 2011, 12:51:07 pm
Dave,

thanks very much.

There's no blistering at all. An experienced mechanic had a look at the bike this morning. Said one can't be sure when looking at an assembled bike, but he can't see anything wrong with the frame. It looks like rust around the bottom bracket & a little around the seatpost, & the tubes sound as if they're sound. How meaningful is that last bit?

What degree of disassembly is advisable before applying Waxoyl?

The advice for how to check the alignment is very useful. I hadn't thought of any of it.

Crepello: thanks.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 16 December, 2011, 03:20:13 pm
...Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left...

Having seen some early Orbits, including one being taking apart to replace a down tube, I suspect that their tolerances weren't much less than 4mm.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 December, 2011, 10:54:52 pm
Quote
Having seen some early Orbits, including one being taking apart to replace a down tube, I suspect that their tolerances weren't much less than 4mm.

I could not possibly comment ;)

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: andrew_s on 18 December, 2011, 02:27:01 am
Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left right.
Are there any disadvantages with this approach I wonder? Neutral wheel dishing would seem like a good idea.
An undished rear wheel is stronger, but the disadvantage is that you can't just go out and buy one. You can't even be certain you can buy a normal dished wheel and remove the dish from it without fitting new spokes. I've been on 3 tours where someone has had to buy a new back wheel to carry on (2 dead hubs, 1 split rim), plus one that got pringled by the airline and had to be fixed up as well as possible without any spares available.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 18 December, 2011, 04:52:03 pm
Quote
What degree of disassembly is advisable before applying Waxoyl?

Sorry, missed that. Seat pin out, Waxoyl down the seat tube, BB out spray it along the chainstays, down tube and bottom of the seat tube. Swing the frame about to slosh it around inside, let all the excess drain out, reassemble.

Quote
You can't even be certain you can buy a normal dished wheel and remove the dish from it without fitting new spokes.

Absolutely spot on. Rear wheels built rim centred over locknuts require spokes of different lengths ie block side usually 2 to 3mm shorter. If you try to re set the rim so it is centred over the flanges the block side spokes will be too short. Recipe for disaster
A dishless wheel is definitely stronger but a properly built wheel will handle all but really extreme situations. If that sort of situation is envisaged then use more spokes  ;)

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Crepello on 19 December, 2011, 06:52:08 pm
Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left right.
Are there any disadvantages with this approach I wonder? Neutral wheel dishing would seem like a good idea.
Ah, YFTFM :thumbsup:

In which case, another issue might be chainline and issues with the front mech moving out further to accommodate it.


Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: oldenslo on 20 December, 2011, 06:27:05 pm
Hi everyone - just found this site whilst trying to research 'Geoffrey Butler'.

Been reading this very interesting and valuable thread (facts, courtesy of someone who really knows what he's talking about, rather than the hot air, poorly-based opinions and bigotry that seems to fuel so many other internet discussions) and I thought I'd register to enable me to chip in my twopenn'orth (and if the quality of this thread is typical of the site in general I can see myself becoming quite a regular reader).

Anyway, with regard to Dave's Waxoyl recommendations (which I heartily endorse, having used the stuff successfully on many vehicles over many years) I would also urge anyone dealing with a rusting frame to, first of all, kill/convert the rust before applying the wax, and the best way of doing this, in my experience, is to use a product called 'Bilt-Hamber deox-C'. This is a non-acidic 'organic' product that you mix with water before immersing the rusty item for at least 24 hours. It has an almost magical effect, converting all the rust into a grey metallic finish. After a good soaking, you rinse it off with clean water, dry it immediately (hair-dryer, fan-heater etc) then, also immediately, you apply whatever coating is appropriate to the job in hand - in this case, a good sousing of Waxoyl as described above by Dave.

One of the great benefits of the Bilt-Hamber method is that, as the whole work piece (bike frame in this instance) is immersed, all otherwise inaccessible rusted areas get the treatment too (you obviously need a large enough vat or dish to get a frame and forks in - in my case I knocked up a frame-shaped structure out of old timber (a sort of six-inch high fence surrounding the laid-on-its-side frame, which I then converted into an immersion chamber by laying a large piece of thick polythene sheet (from the garden centre) over the wooden framework, then laying the bike frame on top of the polythene so that the weight of the frame pushed it down inside the woodwork, enabling me to fill the whole lot with the Bilt-Hamber fluid. Knowing that I was going to leave it to soak for a couple of days, I also covered the top with more polythene so as to minimise/prevent loss of fluid by evaporation.  Amazingly, when you've finished de-rusting the frame, you can decant the fluid into storage cans and use it again later for further de-rusting jobs. I should add that, other than having discovered this product (via a classic car mag recommendation some years ago) and tried it myself, I have no connections whatsoever with Bilt-Hamber (a German outfit, I understand) or any of their dealers, agents or any other interested parties.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: eck on 29 December, 2011, 02:58:22 pm
I'm planning to touch up (and no sniggering at the back  ::-) ) a fairly tatty second hand Ribble alu frame, and would be grateful for any advice on what preparation I should do.
It's down to bare metal in a few places, each side of the head tube and round the BB especially, and in some places paint is peeling off where it has been touched up in the past.
I've some Humbrol enamel from a previous bike that's a good-enough match, and I know I'll need to sand down the edges etc, but what about primer etc?
The bike is my "worst weather" winter bike, I'm less concerned about aesthetics than just keeping it sound.
TIA.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 December, 2011, 03:00:23 pm
Its aluminium. Just give it a wash now and then
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: eck on 29 December, 2011, 03:02:10 pm
Its aluminium. Just give it a wash now and then
  ???
That's more often that it usually gets washed.  :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 December, 2011, 07:24:29 am
I'm planning to touch up (and no sniggering at the back  ::-) ) a fairly tatty second hand Ribble alu frame, and would be grateful for any advice on what preparation I should do.
It's down to bare metal in a few places, each side of the head tube and round the BB especially, and in some places paint is peeling off where it has been touched up in the past.
I've some Humbrol enamel from a previous bike that's a good-enough match, and I know I'll need to sand down the edges etc, but what about primer etc?
The bike is my "worst weather" winter bike, I'm less concerned about aesthetics than just keeping it sound.
TIA.

Eck

The trick is to key the surface with something like 240 grit wet and dry to give the Humbrol something to grip. This will last for a couple of years and when it needs another touch up its only a few minutes job. There may be a primer for ally  but it is probably not worth bothering with for this sort of job. Ally really needs an acid etch primer but this is not generally available to the "public". The stuff I use is a two pack industrial concoction designed specifically for the job. It has a "Defstan" rating several lines long and the MOD use it for painting Tornados and the like. Sticks like ---- to a blanket.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: eck on 30 December, 2011, 08:59:29 pm
Dave,
Many thanks for your helpful reply. The original frame is a bright lemony yellow, the Humbrol enamel is more like custard.  :facepalm: Never mind, another coat tomorrow and it will be better than it was.

BTW, the bestest paint job I ever had is on the 653 Joe Waugh (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6602394843_4198d1d349_b.jpg)  you guys built for me in late 1996, when you were still at the old Wallsend place. There's hardly a mark on it, and it's still very much my favourite bike after all those years.  :)
(The glow at the back wheel isn't the warm Scottish afternoon sun, it's from the halogen heater trying to keep the garage above freezing)

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 21 January, 2012, 08:19:22 pm
A little general question. Is it still possible to find tubing in french dimensions? It's for a frame that has no conceivable value or merit (other than it would appear to be 1930's, is not a race frame or a classy build and has Super Champion fork-ends -and the gearchange that goes with it). I have measured the damaged tubes (down tube and top tube) and they appear to correspond with the dimensions in a 1980's Ishiwata catalogue for french tubing, 28.0mm and 26.0mm (on bare tubes).
A second question. How easy/complicated is it to replace tubes if the lugs are pinned? Judging by the extremely crude nature of the lugs I would assume that they are pinned.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 26 January, 2012, 07:28:34 am
A little general question. Is it still possible to find tubing in french dimensions? It's for a frame that has no conceivable value or merit (other than it would appear to be 1930's, is not a race frame or a classy build and has Super Champion fork-ends -and the gearchange that goes with it). I have measured the damaged tubes (down tube and top tube) and they appear to correspond with the dimensions in a 1980's Ishiwata catalogue for french tubing, 28.0mm and 26.0mm (on bare tubes).
A second question. How easy/complicated is it to replace tubes if the lugs are pinned? Judging by the extremely crude nature of the lugs I would assume that they are pinned.

Sorry about the delay, had computer problems, the mouse died and I have no idea how to use the keyboard in this situation  ::-)
The tubes you describe are indeed French metric standard. Down and seat tubes 28mm and top tube 26mm. AFAIK the only metric tube generally available in the UK was the original 753 which was produced only in metric for the first couple of years because only the French and Portugese were interested in it. Reynolds have never had the tubes available on "general release" unless for a minimum order of 500 pieces. I actually have a couple of metric tubes somewhere, cant remember what or where but if you are desparate I can have a look.
Pinned lugs can be a bit of a b----r to dismantle. I usually try to find the pins then drill them out first. The other technique I have used is to heat the lug joint up to dismantling temp, then quickly punch the pin out with a thin pin punch. This is really a four handed job, someone to hold the torch and someone to do the punching. Not for the faint hearted and usually employed when the pin is discovered in the process of dismantling.
What is the damage to your frame? It may be possible to repair without taking the tube out. Replacing a tube is a fairly savage process and one I usually only use as a last resort.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 27 January, 2012, 04:06:23 pm
Reynolds 753 is much too good; steel central heating pipe would be closer! I was actually hoping you could tell me if Columbus did Gara in french dimensions (since they seem to do that in all sorts of sizes and lengths not necessarily frame set related).
Here are a couple of pictures. The bike is now stripped (except the cranks!) but I haven't yet taken a pic of the damage to the down tube. The crease is actually somewhere behind the gearlever quadrant; your experienced eye can probably see how far it is bent. The top tube has a couple of good ripples.
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9723/100b6067.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9591/100b6070.jpg

The thing with this bike is that it has no conceivable value other than that a utilitarian randonneuse built with a Super Champion gear is not common and that it is family in that it used to belong to my wife's uncle. I had thought it destined for the scrap metal skip but before I dump it I would like to make sure that I am not missing something. To complete the picture, it was fitted with 700B wheels (for which Endrick rims are about as common as rocking horse droppings) and that steel drop bar is actually 30cm wide and must be excruciatingly uncomfortable (and it is about 3cm too small for me).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: iddu on 27 January, 2012, 04:43:43 pm
A little general question. Is it still possible to find tubing in french dimensions?

Himself probably knows already, but FYI: http://www.ceeway.com/Gara.htm
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 27 January, 2012, 06:45:23 pm
I have also delved into the site of Ceeway a lot, not just for this, but they tend only to reference in english sizes, I suppose because they handle tubes to correspond with the lugs in their catalogue.
This is really a question for a french frame builder, I know, but our local frame builder has much the same character as Major Nicholls, although without perhaps the same level of skills, so I am a bit scared to even trouble him.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 27 January, 2012, 11:31:12 pm
Quote
Himself probably knows already, but FYI: http://www.ceeway.com/Gara.htm

The tubes in the link are actually imperial although shown as mm. 25.4mm = 1", 28.6mm = 1 1/8". The difference between French and British standards is only .6mm in each case but that is the difference between "fit" and "not fit". The top tube will not go into the lug and the down tube will rattle around in the lug.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to restore the bike. I have done lots of such jobs over the years where the frame is worthless to all but the family member who wants to resurrect it. I recently did a Flying Scot that had belonged to the customer's Grandfather then Father. It was in a sorry state but worth spending some time doing for the sheer sentimental value. I could attempt to source some tubes but the job would be expensive, rough estimate in excess of £300  :o

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 27 January, 2012, 11:56:19 pm
Dave - Jig-built versus free-built? 

I noticed someone posted a piccy of a frame under construction  from a well-known Yorkshire builder recently very firmly arranged in a jig. 

Their main competitor in the same Yorkshire city claims that free-built makes for a springier and happier frame. 

Is there anything in it?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 28 January, 2012, 07:44:39 am
Dave - Jig-built versus free-built? 

I noticed someone posted a piccy of a frame under construction  from a well-known Yorkshire builder recently very firmly arranged in a jig. 

Their main competitor in the same Yorkshire city claims that free-built makes for a springier and happier frame. 

Is there anything in it?

One of the first things I say to people on my courses is that there are as many different ways of building frames as there are framebuilders. My opinion is that it depends entirely on the builders skill level and experience. Strictly speaking it is a "fixture" rather than a "jig" but I am being a bit pedantic here, the term "jig" is in general usage in the framebuilding world so jig it is  ::-).
The purpose of any jig or fixture in engineering is to reduce the number of variables in an operation and to a certain extent "de skill" the operation. In the case of, say, a drilling jig the work piece is clamped into the jig and the jig is clamped to the drilling machine table. The drill is guided by a hardened steel bush built into the jig. All the operator has to do is load the workpiece into the jig drill the hole then repeat with the next piece ad nauseum !! Virtually no skill at all is required to operate but lots of skill in the design and manufacture of the jig. Some of the commercial frame jigs eg Bike Machinery and Marchetti Lange use clamps on the tube diameter operated by a pneumatic cylinder. These are fine for mass producing El Cheapo frames but an absolute no no for anything remotely decent.
I have always built with a jig of my own manufacture developed from a design used by a framebuilder called Mike Mullet in the 70s. In it, none of the tubes are clamped rigidly. I developed a build sequence that allows movement during the brazing process. Any piece of metal when heated expands. The "free build" exponents claim that this method allows the frame to move with the heat so no stresses are locked into the structure. My contention is that if the jig is designed well with this in mind the frame can move but is held in line during brazing. However it depends entirely on the skill of the builder. The more experienced builders have developed a system that works for them so as long as the frame fits the rider, tracks in a straight line, fits the purpose it was designed for and remains in one piece it matters not a jot how it is put together IMHO.
Sorry thats a bit long, I could probably write a book on the subject but I have to go and feed the chickens  ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 28 January, 2012, 11:01:02 pm
Quote
I noticed someone posted a piccy of a frame under construction  from a well-known Yorkshire builder recently very firmly arranged in a jig

Tewdric

Do you have a link for this pic? I am always interested in how others do it  :o

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: border-rider on 28 January, 2012, 11:14:44 pm
Do you have a link for this pic? I am always interested in how others do it  :o

here:

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=49308.msg1147848#msg1147848
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 29 January, 2012, 12:27:33 am
Do you have a link for this pic? I am always interested in how others do it  :o

here:

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=49308.msg1147848#msg1147848

You are a remarkable search engine, Mr V.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 29 January, 2012, 08:02:17 am
Do you have a link for this pic? I am always interested in how others do it  :o

here:

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=49308.msg1147848#msg1147848

Cheers for that Mr M. I think this just backs up my statement that there are as many ways of building frames as there are framebuilders. The Woodrup marque have always produced excellent frames, when I were a lad there were quite few in the North East. There was a shop in Newcastle, Denton Cycles, that always had a few in stock.
I would guess from the pic that this fixture is used purely for tacking the joints as there appears to be limited access to the back of the joints. If this is the case then the main brazing will be done out of the fixture allowing the structure to "move" with the heat. I use this technique when fillet brazing ie tack in the jig and do the joints in the vice.

(http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo178/daveyates42/Knives/Workshop/DSC01433.jpg)

My jig that has seen lots of frames through it, probably around 2500, ish, give or take a few. The frame will be fillet brazed in the vice. The joints have had one pass to ensure full penetration then I will shotblast and do the fillets with no additional flux other than the gasfluxer. All round access, tubes not clamped, works for me  ;D

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 31 January, 2012, 08:05:07 pm
Your jig looks very much like one that was at Argos when I visited them (gave them something to do!) in the late 1980's. Same concept anyway.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 04 February, 2012, 01:15:22 pm
Your jig looks very much like one that was at Argos when I visited them (gave them something to do!) in the late 1980's. Same concept anyway.

I have never seen the Argos jig but I am not surprised. Longstaffs have a similar set up with a third axis of rotaion and the capacity for trikes.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: AndyH on 04 February, 2012, 02:33:30 pm
Hi Dave, I've put this in Tandems, but you may be able to give me some guidance on the practicalities of the (hopefully simple) alterations I might want done.

About 5 years ago my uncle gave me this late 30s / 40s Claud Butler USWB frame.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--4C33Hq1zFQ/Ty06dhw_6OI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/O6NA7wtc694/s640/IMAG0437.jpg)
He had started to restore it some years earlier, realised that it wasn't going to happen, so it became mine when he moved house. It's sat ignored in my shed since then.

It's 22 1/2" Centre to top for both captain & stoker, 126mm OLN at the back, and the canti bosses are for 27" wheels. No bottle cage bosses, the EBB at the front is very narrow (60mm) the stokers BB is 70mm, both BB axles are for cottered cranks and the steerer appears to be 1 1/8. It has no gear hanger. The wheels in the picture are 700c, and the back one is not in the dropouts properly.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pIE3k8MOWSg/Ty06is6Y9dI/AAAAAAAAAfY/9v471dbjU48/s640/IMAG0438.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ijWXPJ1bMIE/Ty06o6FNT7I/AAAAAAAAAfg/vyUvNikB_YQ/s512/IMAG0439.jpg)

I'm not really sure what to do with it. I guess the options are as follows:

1. Sell it as it is
2. Build it up as it is, trying to find all the right period parts
3. Send it to a frame builder to get the following work done:- Re-set the rear end to 130 or 135mm, remove the pump pegs, move the canti bosses so I could run it with 700c wheels, put some bottle cage bosses on, change the rear dropouts, & I'd probably go for a braze on front mech, as it'd probably be hard to properly mount a band on one on the curved rear set tube.

Any advice / opinions / offers welcome. Cross posted in both Tandems & Bicycle repair man's thread.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 05 February, 2012, 07:56:52 am
Now then Andy,

Interesting project (possibly  ;D) I have worked on a number of these beasts in the last 30 odd years. They are well built solid tandems and yours appears in pretty good nick. I am not, nor ever have been,  a tandem rider so I cannot speak from experience but I understand the stoker has a somewhat crunched position and a jarring ride on these due to the rear wheel being so close.
Of your two options for keeping it, the first ie finding period parts could be a long term job as there is a diminishing supply of this sort of stuff and it commands a premium. In terms of function IMHO period equipment is nowhere near modern stuff. So, again only my opinion, you would end up with an expensive old tandem that had limited functionality.
Modifying it to take modern gear will be even more expensive. The braze ons you mention would be no problem apart from the front mech hanger. The hanger is designed to sit on a conventional straight seat tube to position the chaincage in its design position. A new hanger would have to be fabricated with an extension plate to take it back to this position that allows the chaincage to follow the perimeter of the chainrings with the trailing edge low enough to clear the chain on the small ring. You then need to arrange a fairly tortuous route for the cable to clear everything.  I have done this a few times, both on this sort of tandem and TT frames with curved seat tubes so it can be done but time consuming and therefore expensive.
There are three other areas of concern. First the rear dropouts, there is no need to replace them as the slots can be opened up to take a 10mm axle quite safely as there is plenty of metal there and a gear hanger can be welded on. The lower front edge would need to be relieved by about 10-12 mm to allow the wheel free access. Second the headset is probably 1 1/8" x 26 tpi, chances of finding anything to fit are slim so some mdification work may have to be done in this area. The other area is the BB fittings. I cannot see from the pics but if, as was common, they are Chater Lea fittings then you will have a major problem. Everything was bigger on these fittings. They were designed to take 5/16" balls as opposed to 1/4" and hence the cups are a bigger diameter so nothing modern will fit. I seem to remember that the Tandem Club used to sell adaptors that screwed into a Chater BB shell to allow modern cups ie 1.37 x 24tpi to fit. Failing that some could probably be made but as a one off would be expensive. An ex eployee of mine many years ago had a saying "You dont get much engineering for a pound".
 I did a similar job on a Higgins tandem back in the 80s and that cost over £300 then so I would guess you are looking at at least double that, probably more and even going down that route you still have the stoker comfort problem.

You pays your money etc

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 05 February, 2012, 09:21:44 pm
Hi Dave, I've put this in Tandems, but you may be able to give me some guidance on the practicalities of the (hopefully simple) alterations I might want done.

About 5 years ago my uncle gave me this late 30s / 40s Claud Butler USWB frame.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--4C33Hq1zFQ/Ty06dhw_6OI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/O6NA7wtc694/s640/IMAG0437.jpg)
He had started to restore it some years earlier, realised that it wasn't going to happen, so it became mine when he moved house. It's sat ignored in my shed since then.

It's 22 1/2" Centre to top for both captain & stoker, 126mm OLN at the back, and the canti bosses are for 27" wheels. No bottle cage bosses, the EBB at the front is very narrow (60mm) the stokers BB is 70mm, both BB axles are for cottered cranks and the steerer appears to be 1 1/8. It has no gear hanger. The wheels in the picture are 700c, and the back one is not in the dropouts properly.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pIE3k8MOWSg/Ty06is6Y9dI/AAAAAAAAAfY/9v471dbjU48/s640/IMAG0438.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ijWXPJ1bMIE/Ty06o6FNT7I/AAAAAAAAAfg/vyUvNikB_YQ/s512/IMAG0439.jpg)

I'm not really sure what to do with it. I guess the options are as follows:

1. Sell it as it is
2. Build it up as it is, trying to find all the right period parts
3. Send it to a frame builder to get the following work done:- Re-set the rear end to 130 or 135mm, remove the pump pegs, move the canti bosses so I could run it with 700c wheels, put some bottle cage bosses on, change the rear dropouts, & I'd probably go for a braze on front mech, as it'd probably be hard to properly mount a band on one on the curved rear set tube.

Any advice / opinions / offers welcome. Cross posted in both Tandems & Bicycle repair man's thread.

My tuppence (FWIW)
1. Contact the Tandem Club spares service. If the headset is the Brampton usually fitted to tandems of this period, up until very recently they had the replaceable lug races in stock (and yes the bits you need to replace press in and come out for replacement; no need to replace the whole of the upper race/clamp, just the race that is in it)
2. From the main source they may still have a replacement front eccentric for pre-war tandems that allows you to use modern bbs.
3. At the back reducer sleeves to convert to 1.37"x24 bb thread and a bit of work to reduce the width to 68mm. I had this done on my anonymous tandem by Argos in 1989, very worth while mod.
4. Go to a front changer system à la français, which puts your front changer at  the pilot's end and so on a straight tube. Just need to check that the chain has enough room not to foul on the rear rh crank.

In all cases the first stop is the Tandem Club spares service to see what is available and plan from there.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 05 February, 2012, 10:37:39 pm
Quote
In all cases the first stop is the Tandem Club spares service to see what is available and plan from there

Excellent advice. Its a long time since I had any contact with the Tandem Club so I was not sure how good bad or indifferent the supplies are. Definitely worth asking.

DY
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: AndyH on 08 February, 2012, 12:36:39 pm
Many thanks for the advice. I think a sympathetic restoration without a front mech may be the way to go, i.e 5, 6 or 7 speed on the back.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 08 February, 2012, 05:47:42 pm
Something that I forgot to mention but is worth remembering is that modern tandem rear hubs are wide, 140mm IIRC. I would agree that a 5 or 6sp set up is very appealing; I ran my pre-war tandem for over a decade with only 5 gears, including camping with a trailer. You may find yourself choosing between increasing the rear width to use a modern tandem hub or using a solo freewheel with a very limited choice in terms of quality (but finding a NOS quality freewheel may be easier than I make out  :) I hope so).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: rogerzilla on 09 February, 2012, 01:38:53 pm
Cheap 5 speed freewheels are usually OK.  They might be a bit wobbly when freewheeling, and poorly sealed, but this doesn't reduce pedalling efficiency and there's no indexing to worry about, hence no need for nicely-shaped teeth.

Keep them flushed with light oil and they will normally run for ever.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Buzz on 12 February, 2012, 06:33:59 pm
Run it fixed just for the excercise in experiencing terror.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 19 March, 2012, 01:11:53 pm
For Chocolatebike re http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=57899:

Dear Dave,

What do you think of springing open a 132.5mm titanium frame to take a 135mm hub?  Ok with all?, or ill-advisable with some/all?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 23 March, 2012, 07:01:00 am
For Chocolatebike re http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=57899:

Dear Dave,

What do you think of springing open a 132.5mm titanium frame to take a 135mm hub?  Ok with all?, or ill-advisable with some/all?

Sorry about delay in replying, been away since Monday. Grandaughter's first birthday, could'nt miss that !!!
As a matter of princilple it is ill advised to fit any sort of oversize / undersize (o.l.d) hub into any frame as the risk of breakage is increased dramatically. I know lots of you will jump up and say words to the effect of "been doing it for years and its fine". That does not alter the fact that you are putting the rear end of the frame under unecessary stress.
Consider this, if the frame has been built properly then the rear dropout faces are parallel at the decreed O.L.D. If you force a wheel of more or less than that O.L.D. into the frame the chainstays will pivot about their fixed end thus taking the dropout faces out of parallel. You then tighten your nuts (painful :o) or Q.R. and in effect force the dropouts towards parallel again thus imposing a static stress on the structure. You then get on your bike and ride it. This puts a dynamic stress over the static stress already imposed and is thus an excellent recipe for a fatigue failure, usually somewhere in the region of the dropout or on a TIG welded frame it will seek out any weakness or imperfection in the welds.
Now I have no experience of Ti other than using bits of tube to make stuff totally unrelated to bicycles and I understand that some grades of Ti have no fatigue limit but is it worth the risk? Take advice from the builder as he is the man on the spot and it is his name going on the frame.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 23 March, 2012, 11:24:42 am
Thanks Dave.  I don't mind doing it with my 1980s 531 steel frame that owes me nothing, but I can appreciate it's a different matter when specifying a brand new posh bike.  I'd want it to be as near to "right" as possible, too.  It'll be interesting to see what the particular builder advises, and what Chocolatebike goes for.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 03 April, 2012, 11:17:19 pm
Now then people,

I was about to reply to a request for some info on a new frame and I discover its gone  :o
Has it been moved / deleted. Was I imagining things. Do we really exist or are we some figment of the galactic cartoonists imagination. I have been a bit slow responding as a) I have a framebuilding course this week and b) I am stricken with the lurgie (or possibly Patagonian Black Swamp fever) courtesy of my grandaughter.
If whoever posted the request wants to re-post or PM me I will see what I can do to help.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: SteelRules on 13 April, 2012, 09:22:08 am
Hi Dave,

I appreciate that you offer to answer some questions, despite being quite busy.

My question relates to the difference between the Classique and the Classique 853.
Not sure whether I can simplify their differences by just noting that the main tubes are different.

Intended use: road cycling. I would like to fit 25c tyres.
About myself: 184cm height, 90cm inseam, 155cm up to sternum, reach from knuckles to shoulder 67cm.
Weight 95kg and hopefully coming down. Currently riding chromoly 4130 double butted and love it.
Preferred joint method: lugs. Colour of my choice straight orange, possibly without decals. Lug lining black.

Aim: Work on reducing my weight and have a road bike which is comfortable, fits me well and allows me
many hours in the saddle. I cannot demand the speed that I do not have.   

My concise questions for you are:

1. The classique 853 uses tubing of that series entirely or you also use 725 for the rear stays?

2. Do you have more alternatives with Reynolds 853 in terms of tube diameters and shapes in
contrast with 631 for the main tubes?

3. How does 725 compares to 853 for the rear stays?

4. You mention that with an 853 you finished and audax battered. There is really that much of a difference in
pliability between the two? If so, what is the difference due to, wall thickness, tubing diameter or strength?

5. What is in your opinion the difference in function between curved and straight fork blades?
What tubes would you consider for the fork?

6. If silver melts at lower temperatures and the tubes are heated less, then silver it is.

Hopefully I have typed sensible questions, without the usual myths and clichés.

Many thanks for your time and contribution.
SteelRules.

P.S. I have been typed in a text editor first to avoid being lost in transition...
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 13 April, 2012, 09:30:12 pm
Now then Mr Steelrules (6", 12" or 3ft?)

Quote
1. The classique 853 uses tubing of that series entirely or you also use 725 for the rear stays?

  This particular starting point is 853 main, 725 rear. I build custom frames so each of the models mentioned on the website are "starting points". I rarely build anything exactly as the spec on the website.

Quote
Do you have more alternatives with Reynolds 853 in terms of tube diameters and shapes in
contrast with 631 for the main tubes?

  631 is 853 without the heat treatment so physical sizes are the same. ie same metal but 853 is heat treated to a higher tensile strength.

Quote
How does 725 compares to 853 for the rear stays
Dont know, I have never ridden a frame with 853 stays. I would assume slightly stiffer structure. not good for comfort.

Quote
You mention that with an 853 you finished and audax battered. There is really that much of a difference in
pliability between the two? If so, what is the difference due to, wall thickness, tubing diameter or strength?


Stiffness of the structure, and the construction method (tig welded)

Quote
What is in your opinion the difference in function between curved and straight fork blades?
What tubes would you consider for the fork?


Straight fork blades are the work of the Devil, evil devices that rattle your eyballs out. If you ride over a 5p you can tell whether it is heads or tails. Avoid like the plague if you want comfort. I always use Reynolds "R" curved blades.


Quote
If silver melts at lower temperatures and the tubes are heated less, then silver it is.


Wrong !!! 853 and 631 are both air hardening steel that need to be heated above 800C to make this happen. They need to be brass brazed to get the best out of the material. Conventional chrome moly and manganese moly steels anneal (soften) after heating hence a lower temperature is seen by some as beneficial. The 853, 631 stuff works the opposite way.

Quote
Hopefully I have typed sensible questions, without the usual myths and clichés
Close ;D

You say you want comfort not speed, for a rider of your size I would recommend 631 TT / ST 853 DT with 725 stays and "R" fork blades and a decent pair of conventional spoked wheels.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Ed 15/4/12 Typo






Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: SteelRules on 16 April, 2012, 09:11:01 pm
There and back again, Mr Yates:

Thanks for correcting the typo, I guessed you meant top tube.
Illuminating answers. Nice to know that on a first post, I was close..

I have read somewhere that Eddy Merck asked Reynolds for more compliant tubes than 725 for his
Grand Tour frames. Reynolds apparently came up with the idea of 653 for rear stays and fork. Not sure if
myth or urban legend.. I am surprised that the Oracle remains so quiet. May be I am the one who knows nothing.

i) I will dare to ask for similarities between R fork blades and 631 fork blades. If 631 is cold-drawn possible to
curve the blades on cold by brute force?

Kind Regards from Skintland ;)
Steel indeed Rules..

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 April, 2012, 09:48:59 pm
Quote
I have read somewhere that Eddy Merck asked Reynolds for more compliant tubes than 725 for his
Grand Tour frames. Reynolds apparently came up with the idea of 653 for rear stays and fork. Not sure if
myth or urban legend.

Big Ted may have asked Reynolds for something but it certainly was not for something different to 725. That did not exist then, but 753 did so it was possibly that if it happened at all.
The 653 set was 531 main triangle drawn to a higher tensile strength of 60 tons/sq inch hence the "6" in 653. The rear stays were 753.

Quote
I will dare to ask for similarities between R fork blades and 631 fork blades. If 631 is cold-drawn possible to
curve the blades on cold by brute force?

All Reynolds tube is cold worked to reach its final physical shape. All Reynolds fork blades are bent cold I have no idea what the difference between the standard R blades and 631 is as I have a) never ridden on any 631 forks and b) never made any !!! I would guess slightly stiffer and hence slightly less comfort.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 20 April, 2012, 10:12:34 pm
Linky:   Frame building pictures (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=58864) - from a Dave Yates course.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Arno on 23 April, 2012, 09:41:29 am
Hi Dave,

do you have an opinion about curves vs straight seat stays? Do you think choosing a frame with curved seat stays increases the comfort (all other things being equal) or is it just a gimmick?

Thanks,

Arnaud.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 April, 2012, 06:48:49 am
Quote
do you have an opinion about curves vs straight seat stays? Do you think choosing a frame with curved seat stays increases the comfort (all other things being equal) or is it just a gimmick?

Hi Arnaud,

I would guess that curved seat stays would take any harshness out of the back end. Cant say for certain as a) I have never ridden such a frame and b) I have never made such a frame.
Best advice I can give is try and get a ride on one and see what you think. If it suits your style of riding then fine !!

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Andrew Br on 24 April, 2012, 12:51:44 pm
For completeness sake:-

Sorry for the late conclusion to this and thanks again for all the feedback.

Justin (Burls, the frame designer) echoed what Dave said; the 132.5mm mid point setting would always stress the frame and the dropouts would never be parallel to the hubs.

The frame is now on order with 130mm spacing and I've already got the wheels (Fulcrum 5) which we Helen's Xmas present from me.
When the frame arrives, it's going to be sent off for spraying and then the LBS will build it up with 105.
She's hoping to have it for the Manchester-Morecambe FNRttC.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 24 April, 2012, 02:36:25 pm
Dave, stop being so damned open minded and reasonable!  Surely if you play up the cantankerous old didact image it will play to your advantage?  Look at the examples of <REDACTED>, <REDACTED> or <REDACTED> ;)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 April, 2012, 05:31:01 pm
Quote
Look at the examples of <REDACTED>, <REDACTED> or <REDACTED>

Eh !!

DY, (reasonable grumpy old sod)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: SteelRules on 24 April, 2012, 05:57:49 pm
Quote
do you have an opinion about curves vs straight seat stays? Do you think choosing a frame with curved seat stays increases the comfort (all other things being equal) or is it just a gimmick?

Hi Arnaud,

I would guess that curved seat stays would take any harshness out of the back end. Cant say for certain as a) I have never ridden such a frame and b) I have never made such a frame.
Best advice I can give is try and get a ride on one and see what you think. If it suits your style of riding then fine !!

Cheers

Dave Yates

In line with the question, is Reynolds 531 the only one amenable to be used for curving seat stays and chain stays?
Reynolds 725 could potentially be employed as well if desired?

Probably at some point we need to start off the topic of frame geometry, trade offs and compromises.
Steeper angle in seat tube (76 degrees) for flats or time trials or shallower angles for climbing (73 degrees)?
Why one should favour one discipline and not the other?
So many things I do not know...
Thanks for insightful comments,
SteelRules
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 April, 2012, 11:18:05 pm
Quote
is Reynolds 531 the only one amenable to be used for curving seat stays and chain stays?
Reynolds 725 could potentially be employed as well if desired?

531 stays are no longer listed by Reynolds. 725 stays are heat treated and thin and therefore totally unsuited to bending, they will simply crumple. 525 stays of a suitable wall thickness would bend if you really wanted to. I do so regularly laterally to increase clearance for big tyres, but I have never done so longtitudinally for "comfort" or "fashion"
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Doosh on 02 May, 2012, 06:25:48 pm
Hi Dave,

Just wondering if there's a rider weight limit for a 753R frame with 753 forks?

Cheers.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: SteelRules on 04 May, 2012, 08:51:47 pm
Hi Dave,

Hopefully you are having a nice week and are not too tired.

My question today is about what heat treatment adds to the steel tubes.
Ok, Reynolds 853 has added strength and added resistance over 631 due to heat treatment => quoted from Reynolds website
Question: The strength comes from increased elasticity of the tubes, like they rebound more after an impact?
If the above is correct, then how on earth 631 is more comfortable than 853?

Also, the air hardening quality of tubes has nothing to do with heat treatment, counterexample being 631, correct?

When joining tubes with lugs, is it attainable to force melted brass through the mitered tube joints to achieve some form of fillet brazing?

Many riddles...
Many thanks, Mr Yates for your time and patience.
SteelRules




Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 04 May, 2012, 11:06:14 pm
Hi Dave,

Just wondering if there's a rider weight limit for a 753R frame with 753 forks?

Cheers.

Hi Doosh

Too many variables to give a definitive answer. Riding style has as much to do with it as the weight of the rider. Another factor is how well the frame is made. You can take the best tubeset in the world but build it badly and it will be a rubbish frame (believe me, I have seen a few !!!). Incidentally, after the first few frames I rarely built 753 forks, too stiff, rattled your eyballs out. I built lots of 753 frames for the Pros in the 80's, some big strong lads, none AFAIR  failed.

Best I can do

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 05 May, 2012, 07:41:02 am
Hi Dave,

Hopefully you are having a nice week and are not too tired.

My question today is about what heat treatment adds to the steel tubes.
Ok, Reynolds 853 has added strength and added resistance over 631 due to heat treatment => quoted from Reynolds website
Question: The strength comes from increased elasticity of the tubes, like they rebound more after an impact?
If the above is correct, then how on earth 631 is more comfortable than 853?

Also, the air hardening quality of tubes has nothing to do with heat treatment, counterexample being 631, correct?

When joining tubes with lugs, is it attainable to force melted brass through the mitered tube joints to achieve some form of fillet brazing?

Many riddles...
Many thanks, Mr Yates for your time and patience.
SteelRules

You again :facepalm: ;D

I am neither a metalurgist nor a theoretical engineer ie one who does numbers rather than getting his hands dirty  ;D. I take what the tube manufacturers provide and design frames based on experience and feedback from the many thousands of customers that have passed my way. In my experience both as a rider and as a builder, heat treated tubes make for a more rigid structure and hence appear to move less under the stresses of riding. All the 853 and 753 frames I have posessed felt more like riding on a razor blade than a sofa. The 531, 653, 631 frames have all felt less like the former and leant towards the latter. The "feel" of a bike to any rider is very much a function of experience ie what you have ridden before. The term "comfort" is a very subjective term. My background is road racing and I feel happiest on a bike at the "sharper" end of the scale so what is fine for me to ride long audaxes on to someone else would be too harsh.

You are correct that the air hardening is independent of the heat treatment, it is a property of the alloy.

Regarding the question on lugged joints. A properly brazed lugged joint has brass or silver all the way through the joint so that the two tubes are "stuck" together. The strength of the joint is in the fit of the mitre and the penetration of the joining medium into that mitre. As long as this fit and penetration is achieved then you could wrap the joint in baked bean can and it would stay together. A common misconception is that the tube is stuck to the lug and the lug provides structural strength. The lug simply holds the tubes in place to allow them to be brazed. The brass / silver is not "forced" into the  joint but flows by capillary action, given that the joint area is hot enough ie melting point of the joining medium. If you section a joint ie cut it through the centre you should find brass all the way through so it is visible inside the tube  that forms the leg of the "tee". To ensure this is the case I normally set up the joint so that I am feeding brass in at the high point and pulling it through the joint with the torch so it appears at the low point then work it round the joint always feeding in at the higher point.


Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Doosh on 05 May, 2012, 01:56:29 pm
Hi Dave,

Just wondering if there's a rider weight limit for a 753R frame with 753 forks?

Cheers.

Hi Doosh

Too many variables to give a definitive answer. Riding style has as much to do with it as the weight of the rider. Another factor is how well the frame is made. You can take the best tubeset in the world but build it badly and it will be a rubbish frame (believe me, I have seen a few !!!). Incidentally, after the first few frames I rarely built 753 forks, too stiff, rattled your eyballs out. I built lots of 753 frames for the Pros in the 80's, some big strong lads, none AFAIR  failed.

Best I can do

Cheers

Dave Yates

Thanks Dave, it's a Vernon Barker/MB Dronfield frame. Hopefully I'll be ok at 100kg, should be around 90 though  :-[
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 06 May, 2012, 06:39:04 am
Quote
Thanks Dave, it's a Vernon Barker/MB Dronfield frame. Hopefully I'll be ok at 100kg, should be around 90 though 

By my calculations thats around 15 stone, should be fine, Vernon built good stuff, knew what he was doing.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: eck on 06 May, 2012, 08:28:26 pm
Vernon built good stuff, knew what he was doing.

That's a relief: I've just had a crack in my Airborne Zeppelin ti frame repaired by Vernon. Only £35, and a very tidy job he's done.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 11 May, 2012, 10:23:43 am
Re: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=59485.0

Any thoughts, Dave, on Arno's custom frame that arrived with a fatter down tube than asked for?  Will it be "uncomfortable"?

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 11 May, 2012, 02:01:01 pm
Hello Dave,

Leading on from your explanation of lugged joints, I was wondering how much of a fillet you actually need round a lugless joint. I'm thinking of a well-known frame builder whose fillet brazing was immaculate (as he himself would tell everyone), but who used a considerable amount of metal on the joints, especially at the head-tube. (I know a couple who ordered a machine and lied to him that it was for racing so he wouldn't build it so heavily).

Purely for curiosity, and only if you have the inclination to answer.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: RichMoss on 11 May, 2012, 02:21:00 pm


Ok, Reynolds 853 has added strength and added resistance over 631 due to heat treatment => quoted from Reynolds website
Question: The strength comes from increased elasticity of the tubes, like they rebound more after an impact?
If the above is correct, then how on earth 631 is more comfortable than 853?



Cheers

Dave Yates
I hope you don't mind me butting in here with a reply to SteelRules: I looked at the Reynolds website and can't see the exact quote. I wonder if you are confusing Elastic Modulus and 'elasticity'. A higher elastic modulus means the material is stiffer (for a given stress, it deforms less). The words elastic and elasticity just means that when you remove the stress that is deforming something, it recovers its original shape. Elastic modulus is also known as Young's modulus.
The website refers to a higher yield strength - the yield strength is that point where the material deformation changes from elastic to plastic - that is, the material doesn't return to its original shape but deforms permanently.
Richard

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 11 May, 2012, 09:16:52 pm
Hello Dave,

Leading on from your explanation of lugged joints, I was wondering how much of a fillet you actually need round a lugless joint. I'm thinking of a well-known frame builder whose fillet brazing was immaculate (as he himself would tell everyone), but who used a considerable amount of metal on the joints, especially at the head-tube. (I know a couple who ordered a machine and lied to him that it was for racing so he wouldn't build it so heavily).

Purely for curiosity, and only if you have the inclination to answer.

Hi Ian

Back in the day, when men were men and brake cables came out of the top of the levers, I built a TT frame for a certain J Waugh. He won a Commonwealth Games Gold Medal in the TTT on this frame. It was made of 753 built lugless with  55% silver solder. The fillets were minimal, about 3mm radius mainly because that stuff is so fluid that it is impossible to make them bigger. I did this for a number of reasons, first to get the frame as light as possible, secondly as a showpiece for the business and thirdly because "they" said it couldnt be done. The frame survived and is still going strong.
As I said in the previous post the strength of the joint is in the fit of the mitre and the penetration of the brass/silver. Peugeot used to make a "sports" bike with no lugs and no visible fillet. We sold loads of them in the shop at Steels and AFAIK none of them broke. The mitres were machine cut to close tolerance, the joint was done by utilizing a pre placed coil of brass in the tube and heating the whole lot with monster torches so the brass melted and ran into the joint. They claimed an "internal fillet" was formed, I never cut one open so I dont know for certain but the claim seems reasonable.
I have never liked huge fillets, they are not necessary and look slightly ugly. They require more heat and more brass to no mechanical effect and take more cleaning up and finishing. Not a lot going for them really !!!
I normally try and end up with fillets 10-12 mm wide which, to me, looks about "right" However at the end of the day "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 May, 2012, 07:15:08 am
Re: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=59485.0

Any thoughts, Dave, on Arno's custom frame that arrived with a fatter down tube than asked for?  Will it be "uncomfortable"?

My apologies Biggsy, I missed this one.
Just read through the thread and I have to agree with those who said "talk to the builder". I hate having dissatisfied customers and will try and do everything to resolve any such situation. In terms of what difference the slightly larger down tube would make, I have no experience of Titanium as a frame material so my comments are not particularly valid. If this were a steel frame then I suspect that the difference in "feel" would be minimal. The lateral stffness of the frame would be slightly greater but you would have to ride two otherwise identical bikes to notice any difference at all and a lot of that would be subjective. How any bike (frame) is perceived by the rider is largely a function of experience ie what you have ridden before, how your brain works, how much influence "mates" and forums have had etc. Take one bike and three riders from different backgrounds and you will get three different assesments of the bike. Some can take almost any bike and ride it whilst others agonise over the finest detail that has no bearing on the function of the bike at all. We are all different and IMHO it is the job of the builder to get inside the head of the customer, read his/her dream and turn it into a reality that matches the dream as closely as possible.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Rhys W on 24 May, 2012, 09:27:39 am
I remember those Peugeot frames, I'm sure they were called "inexternal" or something. Interesting to learn the engineering facts behind the marketing.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 05 June, 2012, 11:46:50 pm
Quote
I am guessing that a frame with low bottom bracket (8cm drop and 26cm height)
with seat tube angle of 72 degrees and head tube angle of 73 degrees
plus curved fork blades with rake in the interval 4.5-5.0cm ought to be comfortable.

The main triangle for a large sized frame (59-60) could be made tighter by lowering the horizontal top tube 2cms.
Does any of these measurements guarantee comfort in your opinion, Dave Yates?

First off the measurements are completely irrelevant without reference to the rider, height, weight, inside leg, physical problems, riding style, purpose of bike, colour of socks etc. It may be OK for a particular person but agony to ride for another. As I have pointed out previously, how any bike is perceived by any rider is a function of their experience. Put 3 different riders on the same bike and you will get three different assesments of how it rides.
What is "comfortable" ? it is a completely subjective term and can mean all things to all people. My personal interpretation is that the bike should disapear under you as you ride it. The rider should not have to fight the bike to stay in position, which has as much to do with the set up of the bike as the material the frame is made from or whether it has a 72 or 72.5 seat angle.
There is no formula to arrive at the "perfect" bike. Personally I treat each customer as an individual with individual needs (which must be balanced against their "wants") . The design of the frame is arrived at after consultation, discussion and a bit of intuition on my part. I dont do it by numbers, a custom bike frame is too personal to rely on a computer program that tries to keep all the people happy all the time.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 06 June, 2012, 11:43:33 am
The discussion about steel deformation was at risk of derailing this excellent thread, so I hope no one minds me splitting it off.

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=60196.msg1245454#msg1245454
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Zipperhead on 14 July, 2012, 02:57:26 pm
I've just noticed that my Brompton frame has a crack in it. When I put my weight on the saddle, I can't feel the crack opening at all, but I'm sure things would be different across cobbles...

You can see it here, it looks like it extends from about the seatpost clamp down to nearly the weld at the bottom of the tube. It's not quite as bad as it looks, when I looked closely at the picture, dirty water has adhered to the crack making it look a bit wider on the lower part.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aCIgXjGMLGc/UAF48il0XII/AAAAAAAAXO4/eXECBZHiymU/s512/D7K_4156.JPG)

So, I'm wondering if I find someone locally to weld it, whether it's likely to hold together for a few years.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 July, 2012, 12:10:44 am
Hi Zipperhead

I would guess that is a warranty issue if you bought it new. If not it is still fixable, its steel!!. Someone fairly handy with a TIG welder should be able to fix that. You will lose a bit of paint. If you continue to ride the bike the crack will continue to grow until something eventually gives way, not tomorrow, not next week but it will go so best to get it sorted sooner rather than later.
If I were repairing this I would drill a hole at the lower end of the crack, (cant actually make out where the top is) then open the crack up a bit with an angle grinder then TIG weld it making sure I got plenty of penetration and file the top off the weld flush with the original surface. If the fillet at the joint is brass I would stop the weld ether side and re braze that bit likewise the collar at the top.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Zipperhead on 15 July, 2012, 12:46:11 am
Thanks for that Dave.

It's definately not a warranty issue - it's probably 8 or 9 years old now.

I can't make out quite how far up it goes, I may be able to see more inside when I take the plastic collar out. For now I'll retire it from use until it can be welded.

A bit of paint doesn't matter - it will be one of lifes scars, and we all get those as we go along.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 July, 2012, 07:55:14 am
Quote
it will be one of lifes scars, and we all get those as we go along.

Got a few of those ;), its called "experience"

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: CountrySickness on 15 July, 2012, 09:51:40 am
Hi Dave

I was discussing wheels with my favourite wheelbuilder last week and mentioned that I was considering disk brakes on a new custom audax bike to make it more "winterised" (and thinking ahead to LEL).  He mentioned that he's heard that steel forks and disk brakes are a bad combination and lead to a lot of snapped forks.  What is your opinion? Do Reynolds do disk-specific fork blades?

Cheers
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 July, 2012, 12:21:10 am
Hi Dave

I was discussing wheels with my favourite wheelbuilder last week and mentioned that I was considering disk brakes on a new custom audax bike to make it more "winterised" (and thinking ahead to LEL).  He mentioned that he's heard that steel forks and disk brakes are a bad combination and lead to a lot of snapped forks.  What is your opinion? Do Reynolds do disk-specific fork blades?

Cheers
None of the current Reynolds road fork blades are suitable for disc brakes. There is something in the pipeline but whether it comes to fruition remains to be seen. The forces involved are of an order of magnitude greater than for rim brakes and as your wheelbuilder says there are lots of instances of fork breakages where disc mounts have been fitted to blades that are not designed for the purpose. If you do a search on the forum you will find quite a bit of discussion on the subject. From Reynolds point of view they have to be absolutely sure that anything they do does not incur risk to the company in the form of legal action due to lack of fitness for purpose. From the framebuilders POV the same considerations apply. I have no doubt that disc brakes on road bikes will become more and more popular but I think a little more time and work is required.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: matthew on 16 July, 2012, 05:45:30 pm
So, I'm wondering if I find someone locally to weld it, whether it's likely to hold together for a few years.

Given where you are based and that Brompton manufacture in Brentford, could not your someone local be the original manufacturer. I don't know how long brompton warranty their frames for but I suspect they would want to see the mode of failure.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Zipperhead on 16 July, 2012, 09:45:17 pm
Good idea, it is way out of warranty, but I could email them and ask them if they could suggest anybody with the necessary skills. I'm not sure if they're set up to do TIG welding, I only remember seeing brazing being done in the factory - but, don't ask don't get!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Revellinho on 24 July, 2012, 08:58:34 pm
I have a frame related question/problem.  I have been riding a road bike and doing audax events for a couple of years on an entry level tourer with an Al frame on 28mm tyres.  My main problem has been that as I go to the longer distances (400/600) I get numb hands, even though I have tried to adopt a gentle grip and used gel inserts under the tape.  I want to do LEL next year and am concerned about this problem.  The 3 options seem to be...

a) get someone who knows what they are talking about who can sort out my bar and brakes position/angle

b) get some carbon forks fitted to the bike

c) give up trying to improve this bike (Dawes Vantage) and get a better frame - steel/titanium?  Problem is I cannot afford a one off outlay of 1-2k and would need a cyclescheme or 'easy terms'.

I think that the problem is exacebrated by the fact that my longer routes have been very hilly, so lots of braking and LEL should not be too bad. 
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 24 July, 2012, 09:32:56 pm
I have a frame related question/problem.  I have been riding a road bike and doing audax events for a couple of years on an entry level tourer with an Al frame on 28mm tyres.  My main problem has been that as I go to the longer distances (400/600) I get numb hands, even though I have tried to adopt a gentle grip and used gel inserts under the tape.  I want to do LEL next year and am concerned about this problem.  The 3 options seem to be...

a) get someone who knows what they are talking about who can sort out my bar and brakes position/angle

b) get some carbon forks fitted to the bike

c) give up trying to improve this bike (Dawes Vantage) and get a better frame - steel/titanium?  Problem is I cannot afford a one off outlay of 1-2k and would need a cyclescheme or 'easy terms'.

I think that the problem is exacebrated by the fact that my longer routes have been very hilly, so lots of braking and LEL should not be too bad.

Hi Revellinho

Difficult to say without seeing you in the flesh as it were. Can you post a pic or two of you on your bike? Ideally taken from the side against a wall, one with pedal at bottom of stroke and one with crank horizontal facing forward. I have to say that sort of frame is not ideal for that sort of riding so a change of frame would be a good bet. You do not need to spend a fortune on a new frame, a decent 631 or similar tubed frame could be picked up quite reasonably second hand and as long as you can find one in the right size area you can fine tune the position with the components.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Revellinho on 24 July, 2012, 10:05:58 pm
will comply with requests when it is daylight - am doing settle - southport - settle tomorrow, so will try to get some innocent bystander to snap me!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Revellinho on 25 July, 2012, 08:53:23 pm
This link should go to the photos - some on the hoods others on drops but it was getting gloomy when I got back so they were a bit rushed.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67062984@N00/
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 03 August, 2012, 08:59:24 am
Shoot me down in flames, but I'd say straight off that your bars are far too low.

That bike has quite a long reach for you, combining that with the slower riding speeds of Audax plus low bars and you are putting a lot of pressure on your hands.

Can you flip the stem?  Might need to replace brake and gear cables.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: frankly frankie on 03 August, 2012, 02:00:01 pm
That's a similar riding position to the one I have, and have used on 3x PBPs.  Works for me! 
I use an Alu frame and straight bars (so have fewer options for hand movement). 
I do occasionally get hand numbness problems but I take the view that this is greatly preferable to bum discomfort, and it's very difficult to eliminate both without raising my fitness and leg strength considerably. 
You only have the 3 contact points, hands, feet, bum - unless you are rock-hard then on the longer distances, something's gonna hurt.  Unless you're a concert violinist my vote would go for the hands.

I'd suggest an option
d) Aquire the habit of shifting your hands regularly, like every 1 or 2 minutes.  I don't mean big moves such as tops/drops/hoods necessarily, but just small movements to alter the pressure points.  Just the same as you would shift around slightly on the saddle to stay comfortable.  It has to be learned, then it becomes a habit.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tewdric on 03 August, 2012, 03:53:38 pm
That looks like quite a good position for audax tbh.  Your knee is nicely above the ball of your foot with the crank forward, but that's perhaps distorted by what looks like quite a mid foot cleat position  (which a lot of people say they get on well with).  Perhaps try moving the saddle back about a centimeter to reduce the weight you are carrying on your wrists?  You should also lower the saddle a fraction too to maintain the same distance from saddle to pedals. 

If this section of the thread takes off I will consider splitting it off - I don't think we wibble enough about riding position given how crucial it is to performance, injury prevention and enjoyment.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Revellinho on 03 August, 2012, 04:51:37 pm
Split away by all means!  Just to add to the mix, I did a hilly 400 the other day and did not have even a hint of numbness in the hands.  I change my grip a lot but have added in a sort of fist on top of the hoods - as if I am grabbing vertical extensions coming up out of the bar - not so good if you need quick access to the brakes, but really comfortable with no awkward wrist angles.

Interesting that it looks as though I am over-reaching, as many would say the frame/stem set up is too small using the 'can you see the front hub' rule of thumb.  I can see the hub with plenty to spare!  I do suffer with knee problems and I am currently experimenting with the saddle a half cm forward and the (spd) cleats are now in the forward slot to see what it is like with the knee right over the pedal centre, instead of 2cm behind it.  This pushes me even further over the bars!

BTW I did lower the bars 1.5cm just to try and get a bit more aerodynamic.

I will keep experimenting and thanks for the comments, it's appreciated.  I expect that my experiments will get a thorough examination on the Tregaron Dragon in a couple of weeks, as it is lots of hills that tend to be the acid test and although I haven't done it before I know it is a bit uppy-downey.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 03 August, 2012, 05:04:48 pm
I think a split would be good.

Now, back to bar height.

I'm a believer in being able to sit up now and then. It's good to give your neck/back a break and change of position.

I'm also a believer in not having straight arms. Straight arms = shock transmitted to neck and shoulders.

You've lowered the bars you say - but how much time do you spend on the drops?

Bending your elbows a bit would get you down into a more aero position and still leave you with the option of sitting up.  Take a look at the racers tucked down - hands either side of the stem, forearms parallel with the road. Unless you are riding in that position and still not getting low, you don't need to lower your bars.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 03 August, 2012, 05:19:29 pm
I will keep experimenting

But do it by tiny increments at a time, and experiment in every direction (even when you expect it's the opposite from what's required).  Have and juggle 2mm spacers in your headset stack, and be prepared to buy yet more stems and handlebars.  Sell unwanted parts through this forum or eBay to help pay for them.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 29 August, 2012, 08:40:26 pm
Now then people.

My apologies for seeming to disapear from the face of the earth for a while, alas life gets in the way of the good stuff from time to time.

Revellinho,
Having looked at your pictures I reckon your bars are a bit low. I usually look for an equal angle on back and arms and you are tilted forwards slightly. I try and set people up so that the top of the bars are level with or no more than about 1"-2" below depending on their arm length. Your saddle height looks just about spot on. I would seriously consider the carbon fork option. I would put money on those foks you have being a significant factor, they look pretty "solid" to me and as such will transmit a lot of vibration and road shocks straight up into your hands /arms.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Revellinho on 13 September, 2012, 10:07:50 pm
thanks

I have recently moved my bars back up again, but am going to experiment with a slightly longer stem.  I had to borrow and use a bike that was a tad large for me during August and it was a bit 'reachy', but I found this to be very comfortable on at least one all-day ride and when I got my own bike back it felt very 'bunched up' on the front. 

I know about the Al-alloy frame and steel forks and as soon as I can afford to do so,  hope to upgrade.  I thought a good quality full steel frame and forks was the answer but will look into the carbon forks issue.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 September, 2012, 11:33:18 am
Also try rotating bars a bit.

Mscharly was getting hand pain even on short rides and was convinced her bike was too small for her. Watched her a bit, then rotate bars down a tad. Pain vanished.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Revellinho on 14 September, 2012, 03:33:30 pm
Interesting and worth looking at.  I used to think that you just got a bike and pedalled it, but when small niggles are magnified by hours of riding it is amazing how many variables there are to check... saddle height, saddle position fore/aft, saddle angle, cleat position, stem angle, stem length and now bar rotation.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: SteelRules on 26 September, 2012, 09:36:32 pm
There and back again,

It's been too quiet for sometime.

Hi, Dave, yes it's me again :$. I hope that everything is going on well. Hopefully, you wont mind too much if I ask some questions. May be you will find the time to reply? 

1. How do you set the tubes in your fixture to design the frame? Do you work in angles? Do you work in lengths so that you choose chainstay length to achieve desired center-rear? In the same manner, do you choose the top tube, seat tube angle and fork rake to achieve a desired center-front?

2. I am happy to be a guinea pig. What measurements would you choose for a frame used by somebody being 184m tall, 95kg, 91cm inseam, 68cm shoulder to knuckles. The frame would be ridden for training and cycling club rides.

3. Is it possible to initially set the tubes taking into account the expansion that takes place after joining? In other words, is it feasible to join the tubes resulting in a frame aligned within a reasonable margin of error?

4. Does Reynolds offer top tube and seat tube in 31.7mm diameter and 35mm diameter for downtube?  Are there lugs to join such diameter pipes?

5. I do not quite understand the current fad that aims at shortening and shortening the chain stays. Do  you have the impression that a bike is more stable if the chain stays are longer than 41cm so that more weight is placed on front wheel? My definition of stability is that leaning of the bike while moving forward translates into steering. In the same manner, do you consider shortening the top tube to have a longer and lower stem so that front center mass further aids steering?

I really appreciate your illuminating comments.
Many thanks for your time and patience.

Let's not forget that steel rules ;)

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 September, 2012, 11:25:02 pm
Now then rusty

First off let me reiterate, there are as many ways of building frames as there are framebuilders. Anything I describe is my way of doing it and in no way a standard, industry or otherwise.

Quote
1. How do you set the tubes in your fixture to design the frame? Do you work in angles? Do you work in lengths so that you choose chainstay length to achieve desired center-rear? In the same manner, do you choose the top tube, seat tube angle and fork rake to achieve a desired center-front?

I design the frame for the customer, then when I come to build it I set up the jig. I use seat angle and head angle/fork offset, top tube length, bb drop and rear centres. If the customer specifies toe clearance then I take this into account when designing the frame by adjusting angles, top tube and fork offset.

Quote
2. I am happy to be a guinea pig. What measurements would you choose for a frame used by somebody being 184m tall, 95kg, 91cm inseam, 68cm shoulder to knuckles. The frame would be ridden for training and cycling club rides.

I have mentioned before that I dont work from numbers alone so without a fair bit more information those numbers dont mean a lot. Having designed and built several thousand frames I dont actually need a guinea pig and in any case, being a bit of a dinosaur I only work in inches and pounds, I cant make any sense of these strange foriegn measurements ;D

Quote
3. Is it possible to initially set the tubes taking into account the expansion that takes place after joining? In other words, is it feasible to join the tubes resulting in a frame aligned within a reasonable margin of error?

There is no "expansion" after joining. Steel expands when heated then contracts when cooled. Any framebuilder worthy of the name will produce a frame aligned to "a reasonable margin of error"

Quote
4. Does Reynolds offer top tube and seat tube in 31.7mm diameter and 35mm diameter for downtube?  Are there lugs to join such diameter pipes?

Reynolds do tubes in these diameters, actually 1 1/4" and 1 3/8" as all Reynolds tube is produced in imperial diameters. Lugs are available.

Quote
5. I do not quite understand the current fad that aims at shortening and shortening the chain stays. Do  you have the impression that a bike is more stable if the chain stays are longer than 41cm so that more weight is placed on front wheel? My definition of stability is that leaning of the bike while moving forward translates into steering. In the same manner, do you consider shortening the top tube to have a longer and lower stem so that front center mass further aids steering?

I dont quite understand your use of the word "current" This was a "fad" long before I started building frames. Claude Butler and Jack Taylor curved seat tube, Flying Gate, Condor split seat tube, MKM seat tube onto down tube, etc, all dating from the 70's and before. The rest of your question depends entirely on A) the rider and B) the purpose to which the bike is to be put.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikepacker on 22 October, 2012, 08:49:52 pm
I want a custom built frame to replace the titanium I have recently sold. Other than Flying Gate there doesn't seem to be any frame builders in my area. Does anyone know of a frame builder in the Midlands area I could look at?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 22 October, 2012, 08:55:43 pm
Dave's in the Midlands.  Just the East Midlands.  As is Mercian.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Hot Flatus on 22 October, 2012, 08:56:33 pm
Brian Rourke in Stoke?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 22 October, 2012, 08:57:11 pm
Longstaff

Edison

MB

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 22 October, 2012, 09:00:31 pm
Going the other way, there's Argos in Bristol - are they still building?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 22 October, 2012, 09:01:58 pm
I think Lee Cooper's in Coventry.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 22 October, 2012, 09:03:00 pm
Do Henry Burton still make their own frames?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikepacker on 22 October, 2012, 11:07:12 pm
I'll check up tomorrow on Henry Burton, I have emailed Lee Cooper but got no response. Like the idea of using Dave but it is a jaunt from here over to Lincolnshire. Robin Mather is not too far away and although he is top notch his price is very high for a steel frame. Really only looking at the £1000 mark.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 23 October, 2012, 09:50:53 am
Did you know that Trevor Jarvis does 'normal' frames - some with fancy lugs, too - as well as Flying Gates?

I understand he was ill last year, though, so I'm not sure if he's building.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikepacker on 23 October, 2012, 10:49:17 am
Last time I spoke to Trevor he was handing all the frame making over to Jeremy Cartwright who doesn't seem to have the depth of experience with bike frames.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 23 October, 2012, 10:50:00 am
Oh.  OK.  Best wishes to Trevor if you are in touch.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 23 October, 2012, 10:58:08 am
I'll check up tomorrow on Henry Burton, I have emailed Lee Cooper but got no response. Like the idea of using Dave but it is a jaunt from here over to Lincolnshire. Robin Mather is not too far away and although he is top notch his price is very high for a steel frame. Really only looking at the £1000 mark.

Mercian would be my choice.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 23 October, 2012, 10:59:27 am
Personally, I'd make the extra effort and go to Dave Yates.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikepacker on 23 October, 2012, 11:12:15 am
I am begining to think that might be the best option.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 23 October, 2012, 11:17:42 pm
I could not possibly comment  ;D

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 24 October, 2012, 09:43:39 am
I could.  I've never owned one of your frames, Dave, but I have aspired to for a very long time now.  I've seen you working at York Rally, and I bet there are a lot of framebuilders who wouldn't be prepared to submit to that kind of scrutiny.  I've ridden a couple of bikes built up from your frames, and they were really well crafted.

Can I get a discount? ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tiermat on 24 October, 2012, 09:48:21 am
I know two people, other than myself, who are able to comment, one OTP, the other not.

One keeps posting pictures of his lovely purple DY bike on FB, I think he likes it.

The other keep raving about how he really likes his DY built Flying Scot.

OK, not a representative sample, but good enough for me (and I used to own the frame the first person ^ now has, and if it wasn't too small for me, I would still have it :) )

I have just, recently, negiotiated buying another DY frame, one that is the right size for me, so there must be something in it :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 24 October, 2012, 12:20:42 pm
A friend of mine has a hobby pulling bikes out of skips and renovating them. A while ago he found a good condition Colnago MTB (yes, really), and now he's found a Dave Yates frame.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 25 October, 2012, 07:26:44 am
Quote
and now he's found a Dave Yates frame.

IN A SKIP  !!!!!!!!!  :o

Whoever put it there was obviously a complete philistine ! At the end of their days they at least should get a proper funeral.  ;D

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 25 October, 2012, 08:49:54 am
Quote
and now he's found a Dave Yates frame.

IN A SKIP  !!!!!!!!!  :o

Whoever put it there was obviously a complete philistine ! At the end of their days they at least should get a proper funeral.  ;D

Dave Yates

I think this one's going to rise from the dead.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 25 October, 2012, 09:48:06 am
Zombike! :o
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikepacker on 26 October, 2012, 12:34:23 pm
I have just been on a ride with someone who has a Bob Jackson off the peg World Tour frame with 631 tubing. It rode extremely well and was as comfortable to me as my old 531 frame. I don't know much about this company and wondered if there are any downsides to these frames as they are priced at £500 less than similar custom ones.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 26 October, 2012, 12:53:45 pm
Bob Jackson are my favourite builders.  Even more than Woodrup.  The World Tour is, without doubt, an excellent design, and, could I but afford one, I'd have one right now.

Well worth getting in touch with them.

Btw, they no longer have a retail shop, and operate just as framebuilders.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: SteelRules on 13 November, 2012, 07:16:03 pm
Hi Dave,

I appreciate your response to my last batch of questions.
I am trying to know more about your philosophy of road frame design.
Unfortunately, you don't put out much information.

If I may ask:

1. Do you design your road frames to achieve a proportion of weight distribution, that
according to your experience works? Pino Morroni advocated 45/55 front/rear.
The ratio 40/60 front/rear seems more common nowadays. Can we know your take in that regard?

2. Round straight chainstays versus oval. Are you in favour of one type versus the other?
Are there Reynolds 631 round straight 7/8' (22.2mm) chainstays available in 410mm length?

As always, your comments are appreciated.   
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 November, 2012, 09:08:00 pm
Now then

Quote
Unfortunately, you don't put out much information.

That is because the questions are a result of you spending far too much time thinking up strange questions instead of riding your bike  ;D

Quote
I am trying to know more about your philosophy of road frame design

My "philosophy" on frame design is based on experience, both of riding ( first cat road racing licence for 9 years, club riding, touring, audaxing inc. PBP and LEL) and building the things for 36 years having been responsible for some 12500 frames. I have a good idea of what works in a given situation. Each situation (customer) is different so it is difficult to say "this is how I do it" I tend to work very much by the "seat of the pants" and take each design as it comes. The stuff you have been asking is far too esoteric for me. I suspect you would get the same response (if any) from most of the experienced builders. One of the first things I say to people on my framebuilding courses is that there are as many different ways of building frames as there are framebuilders. Some use computers and lots of numbers. I use the wet finger in the wind approach. It works for me !!!

Quote
1. Do you design your road frames to achieve a proportion of weight distribution, that
according to your experience works? Pino Morroni advocated 45/55 front/rear.
The ratio 40/60 front/rear seems more common nowadays. Can we know your take in that regard?

See above !!! I am sure Mr Morroni has very fixed ideas on the subject and being Italian he must be right. However as I said I dont do numbers like that. If it looks right it probably is.

Quote
2. Round straight chainstays versus oval. Are you in favour of one type versus the other?
Are there Reynolds 631 round straight 7/8' (22.2mm) chainstays available in 410mm length?

If you are talking about a 7/8" dia tube as a chainstay, hideous things, and as far as I am aware Reynolds have never listed items such as these although they will do anything to special order. I know one builder who made frames with this configuration but it was purely a marketing ploy. "Look at my frames they are different" not neccessarily "better"

Cheers

Dave Yates

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: SteelRules on 20 November, 2012, 09:07:03 pm
Dave,

I appreciate your patience in replying my esoteric questions.
I have tried to know your frame designs better. Call it respect for a craftsman or
for somebody who has persisted in the trade despite the difficulties brought by mass production.
Know that I remain genuinely curious. You are right in one thing, though, that I should ride more.
Nevertheless, in Cartesian mode, when I ride I also think.

Probably better to step aside for now.

P.S. It seems to me that Columbus is gaining market share through liaison with reputable framebuilders.
Reynolds, are you taking note?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 19 February, 2013, 07:16:14 pm
Hi Dave, I wonder if you wouldn't mind helping me?

I have a steel Basso of indeterminate age (built from Columbus CroMo if that helps) and I need to change the BB. The fitted unit is a Shimano UN10, the BB shell is a 'cutaway' design with tubular cable guides brazed in place. The end caps are marked 36x24 and the BB shell appears to be 70mm across. The cups are plastic and FAG/Campag style. All of this is suggesting to me that the BB is Italian thread which I have never dealt with before.

Any pratfalls to avoid?

luv'n'stuff

John B
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 19 February, 2013, 07:26:58 pm
Hi Dave, I wonder if you wouldn't mind helping me?

I have a steel Basso of indeterminate age (built from Columbus CroMo if that helps) and I need to change the BB. The fitted unit is a Shimano UN10, the BB shell is a 'cutaway' design with tubular cable guides brazed in place. The end caps are marked 36x24 and the BB shell appears to be 70mm across. The cups are plastic and FAG/Campag style. All of this is suggesting to me that the BB is Italian thread which I have never dealt with before.

Any pratfalls to avoid?

luv'n'stuff

John B


Hi John

Your BB is indeed Italian. All you have to rember is that both cups are right hand threaded so come out anticlockwise. Replace with like threaded components and all will be well !!!
I love both your avatar (got a real one next door) and your signature quote. Who is that atributable to? Very profound.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 19 February, 2013, 07:37:11 pm
It's a Genesis song.  (I only know that thanks to Google.  Not quite a Genesis fan myself).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 19 February, 2013, 07:48:00 pm
Thanks. I'd suspected it was an odd one for a while.

The avatar is a kind of 'requiem for British industry' - the Avro factory is less than 2 miles from me and BAe recently shut it! Somewhere my sister has the bomb selector from the Lancaster's nose and I'm sure the 'RCA 88' at mum's came from something similar. I love the engineering ('200,000 rivets flying in loose formation' :) ) and am fascinated that war can produce such innovation and such wanton waste of resources. And they're beautiful!

The signature is a Genesis lyric. 'Guide Vocal' from the 'Duke' album. About 6 months after Dad died I was making a brew at work and it came into my head. I don't mind saying I was perfectly useless for a good 20 minutes after . . .

Thanks again and, yes, I do run a bike shop, I'd just never seen an Italian BB before.

luv'n'stuff

J
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tedzlad1 on 25 February, 2013, 08:54:28 am
i have got a 1984 claude butler reynolds 531 recently from a granparent was just wondering if i could find out a bit more infomation about it (pricewise) i have been told it could be worth good money and im just curious
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 25 February, 2013, 09:06:40 am
It's unlikely to be worth much, Claud Butlers aren't anything special.  Just enjoy riding it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tatanab on 25 February, 2013, 09:25:59 am
It's unlikely to be worth much, Claud Butlers aren't anything special.  Just enjoy riding it.
You have to go back to original Claud Butlers from the 50s and earlier for them to be worth good money. Some models into the 1980s were average or sightly above average machines, by mass produced standards, but that is all.
1984 catalogue -   http://www.nkilgariff.com/CBcats/Cat_84/CB1984_Cat.htm
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Somnolent on 25 February, 2013, 04:45:16 pm
1984 Reynolds 531....
Not sufficiently "vintage" to keep fully in period.
OTH with limited bodgery and skills you can learn on these pages you can likely turn it into a very acceptable audax/winter trainer.


Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 25 February, 2013, 10:58:23 pm
Wot they said !!!! ;D
Fair to middling mass produced frame by Holdsworth. The name is one of those that still has "cachet" even now some 60 years after the "real" Claude Butlers. Even the current far eastern produced offerings are considered "good bikes" by the uninformed.
I just hope my name lasts as long   ;D

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 26 February, 2013, 01:07:16 pm
...I just hope my name lasts as long   ;D

Dave Yates

Who? ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 26 February, 2013, 11:17:25 pm
Who? ;D

That Geordie chap that made bikes, what was his name, Gates, Bates, something like that.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Efrogwr on 28 February, 2013, 09:37:34 am
Who? ;D

That Geordie chap that made bikes, what was his name, Gates, Bates, something like that.

A Geordie? Is he from Byker?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 28 February, 2013, 08:02:24 pm
Whitley Bay actually, the posh end of Tyneside  ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: closetleftie on 06 March, 2013, 06:36:53 pm
Hi Dave,


Idle wondering on my way home this afternoon: what would happen to the properties of a steel bicycle frame if it was galvanized?


Not a plan, you understand. Really just idle curiosity!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 06 March, 2013, 06:46:33 pm
Electroplated, hot dipped or Sherardized?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: closetleftie on 06 March, 2013, 07:14:02 pm
Electroplated, hot dipped or Sherardized?

No, galvanized.  ;D :P




Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 06 March, 2013, 11:32:04 pm
Galvanising is commonly done by hot dipping ie into molten zinc which melts at approx 420 deg C. This is well below the temp required to anneal the tube and also below that of the lowest melting point silver solder. I dont think it would harm the frame but the finish would be pretty rough. We really need a metallurgist on the job th give a definitive answer.

Best I can do I am afraid

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Martin 14 on 07 March, 2013, 12:34:48 am
Wot they said !!!! ;D
Fair to middling mass produced frame by Holdsworth. The name is one of those that still has "cachet" even now some 60 years after the "real" Claude Butlers. Even the current far eastern produced offerings are considered "good bikes" by the uninformed.
I just hope my name lasts as long   ;D

Dave Yates

I thought it had  :o  ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Big Al on 07 March, 2013, 08:24:05 pm
Bicycle Repair Man!   - but - HOW?!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: closetleftie on 08 March, 2013, 07:25:42 pm
Galvanising is commonly done by hot dipping ie into molten zinc which melts at approx 420 deg C. This is well below the temp required to anneal the tube and also below that of the lowest melting point silver solder. I dont think it would harm the frame but the finish would be pretty rough. We really need a metallurgist on the job th give a definitive answer.

Best I can do I am afraid

Cheers

Dave Yates

It would make the bike look a bit like it was an agricultural implement, wouldn't it?  ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 March, 2013, 07:27:16 pm
...or one of those unpolished Sabbath Ti frames  :demon:
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: toestrap on 17 March, 2013, 06:39:25 pm
Hi Dave,

I hope you might be able to advise please?

As the pictures below show I have a bit of an issue with the non-drive side chainstay, where it should be brazed onto the rear dropouts. The fact that I can slip a scrap of paper between the tube and the drop out shows it isn't attached there. It seems brazed below this point and it is ok on the inner face of the dropout.

I'm not sure if this a new feature or just something I've noticed. The frame is c.30+ years old, a Dawes galaxy, 531 unbutted maintubes.

I'm due shortly to a long tour with full panniers - is this frame worth the risk? What might be the options?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheers


(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8565088467_e337c0f44a.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54089265@N02/8565088467/)


(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8520/8565087309_b62ba472fc.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54089265@N02/8565088467/)

 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54089265@N02/8565087309/)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 18 March, 2013, 12:07:46 am
Hi Dave,

I hope you might be able to advise please?

As the pictures below show I have a bit of an issue with the non-drive side chainstay, where it should be brazed onto the rear dropouts. The fact that I can slip a scrap of paper between the tube and the drop out shows it isn't attached there. It seems brazed below this point and it is ok on the inner face of the dropout.

I'm not sure if this a new feature or just something I've noticed. The frame is c.30+ years old, a Dawes galaxy, 531 unbutted maintubes.

I'm due shortly to a long tour with full panniers - is this frame worth the risk? What might be the options?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheers



Now then Toestrap

That looks like a classic mass produced frame brazed joint!! The brass sticks where it touches and often it doesent touch much  :o
If the frame is 30 years old and it has not broken yet it is probably OK. However to set your mind at rest I would get it seen to before your tour. It is a simple job that any competent builder could do in a few minutes. Clean up around the joint, hacksaw blade along the gap to clean inside the dodgy joint and re braze. You will lose a bit of paint but a couple pf brushfulls of hammerite or similar will fix that.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: toestrap on 18 March, 2013, 08:18:17 am
Perfect, many thanks Dave.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: contango on 27 March, 2013, 10:50:43 pm

Hi Dave, saw this thread and figured you might be able to give me some pointers.

I've got a cyclocross bike (2009 Specialized Tricross Sport Triple) that I use for day-to-day use, touring, the odd audax etc. It's got cantilever brakes and having recently ridden a bike with caliper brakes I came to realise how much better they are at stopping the bike. I'm looking at the fork and frame of the tricross and trying to figure if it's a sensible (or even a possible) option to mount caliper brakes to the fork and frame. It's got what look like mounting points there but I can't tell if they are designed to take a caliper brake or if they are intended for nothing more than a mudguard.

Any thoughts appreciated.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 28 March, 2013, 11:44:11 pm

Hi Dave, saw this thread and figured you might be able to give me some pointers.

I've got a cyclocross bike (2009 Specialized Tricross Sport Triple) that I use for day-to-day use, touring, the odd audax etc. It's got cantilever brakes and having recently ridden a bike with caliper brakes I came to realise how much better they are at stopping the bike. I'm looking at the fork and frame of the tricross and trying to figure if it's a sensible (or even a possible) option to mount caliper brakes to the fork and frame. It's got what look like mounting points there but I can't tell if they are designed to take a caliper brake or if they are intended for nothing more than a mudguard.

Hi Contango

Alas, I dont think this is a practical proposition. Being a cross bike the clearance between possible caliper brake mounting points and the centre of the rim brake surface will be too great. You need to measure from centre of brake hole to middle of braking surface on the wheel. If it is greater than 57mm then forget it. You may find deeper brakes but they will not work as efficiently and would feel soft.
It would be worth checking the set up of your cantis. For best effect you should see an angle of approx 90 degrees between a line from pivot bolt centre to straddle wire clamp and the straddle wire.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mark on 30 March, 2013, 12:53:27 am
I went through a series of canti brakes on my tourer trying to find something that gave decent stopping power, didn't squeal and was reasonably easy to set up. I finally replaced the front brake with a direct pull (V-brake) Cane Creek Direct Curve 5 (http://store.canecreek.com/p/direct-curve-5-brake-single/brakes-and-levers?pp=25) brake and a Drop V (http://store.canecreek.com/p/drop-v-lever-pair?pp=8) brake lever. Lots of stopping power, easy to adjust, stays adjusted and it's quiet.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: toestrap on 01 April, 2013, 01:44:42 pm
Hi Dave,

I hope you might be able to advise please?

As the pictures below show I have a bit of an issue with the non-drive side chainstay, where it should be brazed onto the rear dropouts. The fact that I can slip a scrap of paper between the tube and the drop out shows it isn't attached there. It seems brazed below this point and it is ok on the inner face of the dropout.

I'm not sure if this a new feature or just something I've noticed. The frame is c.30+ years old, a Dawes galaxy, 531 unbutted maintubes.

I'm due shortly to a long tour with full panniers - is this frame worth the risk? What might be the options?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheers



Now then Toestrap

That looks like a classic mass produced frame brazed joint!! The brass sticks where it touches and often it doesent touch much  :o
If the frame is 30 years old and it has not broken yet it is probably OK. However to set your mind at rest I would get it seen to before your tour. It is a simple job that any competent builder could do in a few minutes. Clean up around the joint, hacksaw blade along the gap to clean inside the dodgy joint and re braze. You will lose a bit of paint but a couple pf brushfulls of hammerite or similar will fix that.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Sorted :), many thanks for the advice:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8525/8604146432_df5619afed.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54089265@N02/8604146432/)



 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54089265@N02/8604146432/)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 01 April, 2013, 07:46:51 pm
Toestrap

Very neat job, can I ask who did it? Someone who knew what they were doing !!!

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: toestrap on 03 April, 2013, 08:33:30 am
Enigma in Hailsham. They were very helpful and easy to deal with. More importantly they didn't fall about laughing when they picked up my frame which (with only the headset races still in place) weighed close to, and probably more than, one of their fully built Ti machines. ;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: slope on 23 April, 2013, 05:57:40 pm
This is bugging the hell out of me!

I can induce front wheel wobble/oscillation at any speed so far (still experimenting) between 12.5mph and 21mph by simple taking my hands off the bars and almost sitting upright. The further forward I lean, the less the effect, also the further back/upright, the wobble diminishes. The oscillation never gets uncontrollable or scary like a tank slapper at very high speed - I can ride and watch or feel the bars wobble without losing absolute control. It can also be produced by taking only one hand off the bars - which is how i discovered it - hand signalling - I don't make a habit of riding no hands!

It appears to start sooner with more of a load in the saddlebag or when using rear panniers. I went on a jaunt last week with heavily loaded (small Super Cs) on the rear and a lightly loaded barbag. The "shimmy" was way more pronounced, even at lower speeds and sometimes with both hands on the bars. It was still just about controllable.

At speeds in excess of 20mph it's rock solid, loaded or not - which took a lot of confidence building on my part, having had a tank slapper on another frame and could only see death, fortunately avoided with buttocks and knees automatically clenching the saddle nose and top tube respectively!

The frame is a Longstaff tourer which I bought new from George in 1993 - heavily ridden and toured with solid as a rock predictable steering for many years. I had it refurbished in 2007 (by Longstaff's), when I requested the 1" steerer tube to be replaced to make it 1" Ahead compatible. It looked so naff (traditional lugged frame with UGLY chunky Ahead stem = FAIL on my part ::-) ) I reverted to the more elegant quill stem and cut the steerer tube down and threaded it. A new Ultegra threaded headset was fitted.

This is when I suspected/imagined? a different feel to the bike? I kept checking the adjustment of the headset - I still keep checking and have had it checked - it is properly adjusted.

The front wheel has been changed to a Shimano 3N71 dyno hub model. I've checked the frame over for cracks. I've checked the alignment of frame front to back.

Suggestions? PLEASE??

Further thought - what could be the outcome of not threading the steerer "square"?

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 23 April, 2013, 06:14:56 pm
Try running the headset just a shade tight to see if that affects the frequency or amplitude. Shimmy can be very difficult to diagnose though.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 23 April, 2013, 06:42:09 pm
Leave the headset alone.  You don't want to dampen the steering when you might be able to solve the root cause - perhaps via a slight change of riding position via a stem/seatpost adjustment.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 23 April, 2013, 07:34:20 pm
Good luck with that approach
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 23 April, 2013, 08:16:39 pm
I had luck with that with my Raleigh Royal.  No hint of shimmy in the 20 years since.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 23 April, 2013, 10:07:28 pm
An acquaintance of mine cured shimmy on his Longstaff Trike ("Don't you dare tell George.") by replacing the top set of ball bearings with a section of flexible metal tube from a brake cable outer.

Not, however, recommended for a two-wheel machine, not even a Longstaff.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Dtcman on 27 April, 2013, 04:28:31 pm
Dave

I have a Harry Hall 653 steel framed audax bike (similar to the Hewett Cheviot). I’ve changed from Cantis to V brakes on the front and always had trouble aligning them. I’ve now realised that the wheel rim isn’t central between the fork blades but is bob-on in the wheel building jig. There’s no sign of damage and I guess they’ve like it from new. It’s as though one blade is fractionally longer than the other. The obvious bodge fix seems to be to lengthen the drop-out on one side slightly 0.5-1mm max I would guess.

Any reason that wouldn’t work?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 27 April, 2013, 08:11:55 pm
An acquaintance of mine cured shimmy on his Longstaff Trike ("Don't you dare tell George.") by replacing the top set of ball bearings with a section of flexible metal tube from a brake cable outer.

Not, however, recommended for a two-wheel machine, not even a Longstaff.

The bodge on vintage motorcycle-sidecar outfits with cone bearings was to replace the balls in one or both races with a brass curtain ring to reduce the steering wobble.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 April, 2013, 09:28:04 pm
Dave

I have a Harry Hall 653 steel framed audax bike (similar to the Hewett Cheviot). I’ve changed from Cantis to V brakes on the front and always had trouble aligning them. I’ve now realised that the wheel rim isn’t central between the fork blades but is bob-on in the wheel building jig. There’s no sign of damage and I guess they’ve like it from new. It’s as though one blade is fractionally longer than the other. The obvious bodge fix seems to be to lengthen the drop-out on one side slightly 0.5-1mm max I would guess.

Any reason that wouldn’t work?

Now then !
First check is to turn the wheel round ie left to right. If the wheel is still over to the same side then the forks are indeed out. The best fix if this is the case is to file a small amount out of the dropout that is on the "long" side with a round file that fits the curve of the dropout slot. I find a 10" round second cut works best, but it does depend on the file. Dropouts by and large have plenty of metal to allow this to be done without any risk at all. You must keep checking the wheel centering as you proceed. A drop of thinned hammerite smooth on the bare metal will prevent it rusting.
Good luck

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 April, 2013, 10:05:10 pm
This is bugging the hell out of me!

I can induce front wheel wobble/oscillation at any speed so far (still experimenting) between 12.5mph and 21mph by simple taking my hands off the bars and almost sitting upright. The further forward I lean, the less the effect, also the further back/upright, the wobble diminishes. The oscillation never gets uncontrollable or scary like a tank slapper at very high speed - I can ride and watch or feel the bars wobble without losing absolute control. It can also be produced by taking only one hand off the bars - which is how i discovered it - hand signalling - I don't make a habit of riding no hands!

It appears to start sooner with more of a load in the saddlebag or when using rear panniers. I went on a jaunt last week with heavily loaded (small Super Cs) on the rear and a lightly loaded barbag. The "shimmy" was way more pronounced, even at lower speeds and sometimes with both hands on the bars. It was still just about controllable.

At speeds in excess of 20mph it's rock solid, loaded or not - which took a lot of confidence building on my part, having had a tank slapper on another frame and could only see death, fortunately avoided with buttocks and knees automatically clenching the saddle nose and top tube respectively!

The frame is a Longstaff tourer which I bought new from George in 1993 - heavily ridden and toured with solid as a rock predictable steering for many years. I had it refurbished in 2007 (by Longstaff's), when I requested the 1" steerer tube to be replaced to make it 1" Ahead compatible. It looked so naff (traditional lugged frame with UGLY chunky Ahead stem = FAIL on my part ::-) ) I reverted to the more elegant quill stem and cut the steerer tube down and threaded it. A new Ultegra threaded headset was fitted.

This is when I suspected/imagined? a different feel to the bike? I kept checking the adjustment of the headset - I still keep checking and have had it checked - it is properly adjusted.

The front wheel has been changed to a Shimano 3N71 dyno hub model. I've checked the frame over for cracks. I've checked the alignment of frame front to back.

Suggestions? PLEASE??

Further thought - what could be the outcome of not threading the steerer "square"?

Now then Slope
Sorry about the delay in replying I have been stupidly busy the last couple of weeks combined with a nasty attack of Dutch Lurgie courtesy of one of my framebuilding course pupils.
Over the past 37 years that I have been building frames I have come across this problem  fairly regularly.  If the bike rode OK before then clearly something has changed.
It sounds as if the trail has altered. This could happen if the new column was put in at a slightly different angle to the original thus altering the offset.  First check that the fork blades are in line with the steering axis. Do you know what the original fork offset was.
Is the dynohub wheel the original? if not have you tried it with the original, or near offer, wheel
The effect of theading the column off square would be a bit of a tight spot somewere as it turns.
The weight distibution thing is consistent with a lot of examples of this problem that I have seen most of which have been cured by altering the fork offset however there are too many variables to give a firm reply. Sorry to be a bit vague but I normally solve this sort of thing "hands on" rather than by electronic means.
My money would be on the fork offset.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: slope on 30 April, 2013, 10:37:37 pm
This is bugging the hell out of me! . . . . . .
Quote

Now then Slope . . . . . . .

Cheers

Dave Yates

Thanks Mr Yates - I will respond with more info tomorrow and DO realise it's hardly a straightforward problem
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Dtcman on 01 May, 2013, 06:11:11 pm
Dave

I have a Harry Hall 653 steel framed audax bike (similar to the Hewett Cheviot). I’ve changed from Cantis to V brakes on the front and always had trouble aligning them. I’ve now realised that the wheel rim isn’t central between the fork blades but is bob-on in the wheel building jig. There’s no sign of damage and I guess they’ve like it from new. It’s as though one blade is fractionally longer than the other. The obvious bodge fix seems to be to lengthen the drop-out on one side slightly 0.5-1mm max I would guess.

Any reason that wouldn’t work?

Now then !
First check is to turn the wheel round ie left to right. If the wheel is still over to the same side then the forks are indeed out. The best fix if this is the case is to file a small amount out of the dropout that is on the "long" side with a round file that fits the curve of the dropout slot. I find a 10" round second cut works best, but it does depend on the file. Dropouts by and large have plenty of metal to allow this to be done without any risk at all. You must keep checking the wheel centering as you proceed. A drop of thinned hammerite smooth on the bare metal will prevent it rusting.
Good luck

Dave Yates


Thanks Dave I'll give it a go.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: closetleftie on 02 June, 2013, 09:39:42 am
Hi Dave,


I have a 531* frame which I think is built for 27" wheels. It has canti bosses but the fork crown is also drilled for caliper brakes. Currently powder coated and used for going to the pub!


It needs a respray and I would like to convert it from threaded to threadless steerer, so some work is required anyway. Can the frame be converted to be compatible with 57mm drop dual pivot brakes in the process, so that I can put a modern STi groupset on it?


Thanks!

Leftie


*Well, it has a 531 sticker on when I bought it...
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: contango on 02 June, 2013, 08:34:16 pm

Hi Dave, saw this thread and figured you might be able to give me some pointers.

I've got a cyclocross bike (2009 Specialized Tricross Sport Triple) that I use for day-to-day use, touring, the odd audax etc. It's got cantilever brakes and having recently ridden a bike with caliper brakes I came to realise how much better they are at stopping the bike. I'm looking at the fork and frame of the tricross and trying to figure if it's a sensible (or even a possible) option to mount caliper brakes to the fork and frame. It's got what look like mounting points there but I can't tell if they are designed to take a caliper brake or if they are intended for nothing more than a mudguard.

Hi Contango

Alas, I dont think this is a practical proposition. Being a cross bike the clearance between possible caliper brake mounting points and the centre of the rim brake surface will be too great. You need to measure from centre of brake hole to middle of braking surface on the wheel. If it is greater than 57mm then forget it. You may find deeper brakes but they will not work as efficiently and would feel soft.
It would be worth checking the set up of your cantis. For best effect you should see an angle of approx 90 degrees between a line from pivot bolt centre to straddle wire clamp and the straddle wire.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Ack, shamefully late in coming back to the thread, too many threads here to keep on top of them all. Thanks for your feedback, I'll take a look at how my cantis are set up and tweak as necessary. If I can get a bit more stopping power out of them it may be I don't need to look at calipers, I guess if I can lock both wheels then I've got more than enough stopping power.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: ran doner on 02 June, 2013, 09:23:29 pm

Ack, shamefully late in coming back to the thread, too many threads here to keep on top of them all. Thanks for your feedback, I'll take a look at how my cantis are set up and tweak as necessary. If I can get a bit more stopping power out of them it may be I don't need to look at calipers, I guess if I can lock both wheels then I've got more than enough stopping power.

I replaced my tektro cantis on my 2010 tricross with these FSA cantis (http://www.hargrovescycles.co.uk/products.asp?category=Cyclocross&product=SLK Cyclocross Brake Set#.Uaun1_1wapo) with some Kool Stop pads and the improvement was instantly apparent.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: BrianI on 02 June, 2013, 09:26:55 pm

Ack, shamefully late in coming back to the thread, too many threads here to keep on top of them all. Thanks for your feedback, I'll take a look at how my cantis are set up and tweak as necessary. If I can get a bit more stopping power out of them it may be I don't need to look at calipers, I guess if I can lock both wheels then I've got more than enough stopping power.

I replaced my tektro cantis on my 2010 tricross with these FSA cantis (http://www.hargrovescycles.co.uk/products.asp?category=Cyclocross&product=SLK Cyclocross Brake Set#.Uaun1_1wapo) with some Kool Stop pads and the improvement was instantly apparent.

Tektro CR520/720s are a good option too.  I have these on my dawes horizon.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 02 June, 2013, 10:42:57 pm
Hi Dave,

I have a 531* frame which I think is built for 27" wheels. It has canti bosses but the fork crown is also drilled for caliper brakes. Currently powder coated and used for going to the pub!

It needs a respray and I would like to convert it from threaded to threadless steerer, so some work is required anyway. Can the frame be converted to be compatible with 57mm drop dual pivot brakes in the process, so that I can put a modern STi groupset on it?

While you're waiting for Dave, I can tell you that you will be able to fit dual-pivot brakes, though deeper than 57 mm is needed in some cases.  It depends on the particular frame.  I fitted modern components to my old Raleigh Royal that originally had 27" wheels.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: closetleftie on 03 June, 2013, 07:28:07 am
Thanks Biggsy,

I did run 70mm Alhonga DPs for a while. They weren't as good as 57mm ones though - bit more spongy, which I assume to be because there is more flex in the longer "arms". If I wasn't thinking of converting to a threadless steerer anyway, that's certainly what I would do again.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 03 June, 2013, 03:02:05 pm
Try measuring.  http://sheldonbrown.com/calipers.html#reach 

(http://sheldonbrown.com/images/forkreach266.jpg)

An extra couple of mm of reach can be got from a calliper by filing the bottoms of the brake block slots.

My front Alhonga feels ok, thanks to being able to have the blocks at the top of the slots, effectively minimising arm length.  The rear is rather spongy, but I don't mind having a weak rear brake.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: closetleftie on 03 June, 2013, 03:17:28 pm
Sorry - I should have made myself clearer. The frame definitely won't take 57mm drop brakes as it is. The reach required is around 65-70mm at a guess. The Alhonga deep drop brakes were pretty near maxed out from memory.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 03 June, 2013, 03:23:26 pm
Oh right.  You could stick with standard cantis.  They're compatible with STI brake levers.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: closetleftie on 03 June, 2013, 07:06:32 pm
But not with easy set-up, at least in my hands.  :-[
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Dtcman on 10 June, 2013, 12:56:01 pm
mini V brakes will also work directly with drop leavers. Easier to set up than cantis and no hanger required.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Vince on 26 June, 2013, 11:39:02 am
As reported on the 'On the Commute' Thread, I have had the misfortune to sheer the steerer tube of my Mercian.

(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/VinceHall/2013-06-26084554_zps9659cf4f.jpg)

Mercian will replace the tube and respray the fork for 120 quid. However, I'm concerned that at around 35 years old, the frame may have reached it's end of life. Tubes are 531 DB.

Any views on extending the life of this frame? Is another failure somewhere else on the frame likely?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: aidan.f on 02 July, 2013, 10:17:34 pm
I would be  interested  in  DY's  opinion of  roller bearing  headsets - I gather they stress the  steering  tube axially. (I may have  just answered my own question).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Pedaldog. on 16 August, 2013, 12:14:43 am
I want to build a Dutchbike from the Atomic Zombie plans. It uses a lot of sourcable bike parts but the main frame is square tube, Steel or Cro-mo. Any ideas of where to pick up good quality tubing for this project?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Rhys W on 21 August, 2013, 10:55:17 pm
I have a question for Dave.

I have a nice steel frame that I use for winter clubruns, a Pinarello Sestriere made out of their own-brand "Forma" Cr-Mo tubing. Lovely frame, rides like a dream, Italian style but clearance for mudguards. I noticed some bumps on the underside of the chainstays which felt like paint drips, but on further inspection turned out to be little bubbles of rust under the paint:

(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rhys.llangefni/lluniau/rust.jpg)

Obviously some failure of preparation before the frame was painted. I sanded off any loose flakes/rust, applied some rust inhibitor and covered it in primer as an interim measure. I'm thinking of getting it resprayed now as it's also lacking a second set of bottle cage bosses. My question is, would this be "cured" by shotblasting and a good (professional) respray? I don't want to spend £150+ for the rust to return in a few months time.

I notice that Argos offers something called "Primer rust pitting from: £50", which seems rather expensive?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 08 October, 2013, 08:14:53 pm
Now then folks

I owe you all a large apology for disapearing for most of the year !!! Earlier on in the year I was struck down by the lurgie which left me completely donald ducked for over two months. Then we had a rather extensive bulding project which over ran and caused some headaches. I suppose I just fell out of the habit of looking at the computer.
However all is well now, I feel fine, the building work is finished and I have even been getting out on my bike again (not very far and not very fast) after being inspired by helping at the Kirton control on LEL.
Any of you whose queries I have missed, if they are still of concern let me know and I will see what I can do.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 08 October, 2013, 09:33:43 pm
Welcome back.  :thumbsup:

Do you have any thoughts on Stumpy's crack?:      STOPPIT

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=76166.0
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 October, 2013, 01:14:28 pm
Welcome back.  :thumbsup:

Do you have any thoughts on Stumpy's crack?:      STOPPIT

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=76166.0

Sorry about delay, had a nasty little bug in the computer. Gone now, all is well !!!
The BB shell in question is a Long Shen cast shell. This is the first one of these that I have ever seen crack. This sort of failure is usually seen on pressed shells where micro cracks have formed during the forming process. Withou sight of the inside of the shell it is difficult to give an assesment.
As to fixing it, a new shell is the surest fix but that is expensive and then the frame needs respraying. The job is a nightmare as the shell has to be dissected and taken off a piece at a time then the tubes cleaned up and the new shell brazed in using a jig to ensure accurate alignment.
Yoave's suggestion of a tig weld along the crack is a good one and would be my preferred method if cost was an issue. A repair like that cannot be absolutely guaranteed but of all the similar sort of repairs I have done none have come back !!!
It comes down to how much you value the frame.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 01 November, 2013, 05:57:32 pm
Hello Dave,

What do you think of this;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fixed-Gear-Fixie-RoadToPista-track-dropout-adaptor-Road2Pista-adapter-/271304352459?clk_rvr_id=539674322164

Good idea or bloody dangerous?

Cheers

Yoav
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 01 November, 2013, 07:34:00 pm
Hello Dave,

What do you think of this;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fixed-Gear-Fixie-RoadToPista-track-dropout-adaptor-Road2Pista-adapter-/271304352459?clk_rvr_id=539674322164

Good idea or bloody dangerous?

Cheers

Yoav

Hi Yoav

I have to say my first instinct is "bloody dangerous"  There appears to be only one bolt holding the fixed dropout to the frame. Kick back hard on that and I suspect the single bolt will not be sufficient to hold it. In addition the device will raise the back end of the frame thus altering the head and seat angles.
Not the smartest idea I have seen !!!!!

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: AndyMorris on 11 November, 2013, 12:54:36 am
Hi Dave,

Over the past 8 or so years I've broken 6 frames, One was an old 501 Raleigh, One of a very nice M. Steel handbuilt, replace for no cost, two pompino's and two alloy fixies from Pearsons. All of them went around the BB

I'm a hefty chap (16 1/2 stone +-7 lbs) who does like stonking up hills and I'm now resigned to buying a new pomp every year or so.

I think you should be able to find some pics here (https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/114865833296711869491/albums/5749204296814437505)

Any idea?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 11 November, 2013, 09:22:40 am
A friend of mine had a similar problem, except that he broke random parts of successive Dawes frames, including cracking a headtube. The supplier (Thorn) got fed up with replacing under warranty and offered to build him a frame he couldn't break. They used oversize tandem tube. Apart from one rear dropdown, he hasn't had a problem (still breaks cranks regularly).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 11 November, 2013, 09:53:10 pm
Hi Dave,

Over the past 8 or so years I've broken 6 frames, One was an old 501 Raleigh, One of a very nice M. Steel handbuilt, replace for no cost, two pompino's and two alloy fixies from Pearsons. All of them went around the BB

I'm a hefty chap (16 1/2 stone +-7 lbs) who does like stonking up hills and I'm now resigned to buying a new pomp every year or so.
I think you should be able to find some pics here (https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/114865833296711869491/albums/5749204296814437505)

Any idea?


Hi Andy

There is a pattern here !!!  Most "off the peg" frames are designed for Mr or Ms average. Alas you are not within that category. You have, as I see it, two choices. Either buy a custom frame from someone who knows what he is talking about or continue to break frames and replace. It is perfectly possible to build a frame to take your weight and riding style, just need to use a bit more metal in the right places. It really depends on your budget and cash flow as to which course you choose.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 11 November, 2013, 10:05:08 pm
A friend of mine had a similar problem, except that he broke random parts of successive Dawes frames, including cracking a headtube. The supplier (Thorn) got fed up with replacing under warranty and offered to build him a frame he couldn't break. They used oversize tandem tube. Apart from one rear dropdown, he hasn't had a problem (still breaks cranks regularly).

Ian

I have repaired more Dawes frames than I care to remember. A lot of them were cracked head tubes. Several others were cracked bottom head lugs. The head tube issue was, I believe, due to the use of inferior quality head tube ie mild steel not 531 or similar. The head lug issue was due to poor brazing ie not enough brass. Both are cost issues. Dawes frames were built down to a price not up to a standard. having said that there are hundreds of thousands of Dawes frames out there doing the job they were designed for with no problems which shows they got it right for their target market. In that situation if they have one failure in, say, a thousand frames that is acceptable in their commercial model. Alas it is always the odd dodgy one that gains attention.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 11 November, 2013, 10:18:36 pm
Ah yes, 'three main tubes'. It probably didn't help that he rides a 26" frame.

I've never broken anything worse than a spoke (except once, long ago, and that was with the aid of the rear wing of a minicab).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: AndyMorris on 11 November, 2013, 11:58:22 pm

Hi Andy

There is a pattern here !!!  Most "off the peg" frames are designed for Mr or Ms average. Alas you are not within that category. You have, as I see it, two choices. Either buy a custom frame from someone who knows what he is talking about or continue to break frames and replace. It is perfectly possible to build a frame to take your weight and riding style, just need to use a bit more metal in the right places. It really depends on your budget and cash flow as to which course you choose.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Seeing as I can get a pomp a year for 130 quid I'd have to be convinced that a custom frame would last forever, seeing that it would cost up to 10 times that, but something that works, has proper lugs, takes dual pivot brakes, 'guards and a rack and has old fashioned long horizontal road drop outs, spaced for fixed would be very tempting, the pomp is a bit agricultural.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 12 November, 2013, 09:46:24 am
A friend of has a frame exactly like that: rack, guards, fixed, built to his spec by a certain Mr Yates. It's survived a lot of abuse over quite a few years.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 12 November, 2013, 08:26:54 pm
...... a very nice M. Steel handbuilt ......

Hi Andy, I am seriously impressed by your ability to break frames, including one of Dave Yates' own, it would seem?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 12 November, 2013, 11:21:12 pm
including one of Dave Yates' own, it would seem?

Not necessarily !!!  ;D Of the approx 12,500 ish frames built whilst I ran M. Steel's frame shop I only built about 3500 personally. The "standard" frames were built by a team of three whilst I built "specials", tandems, oddball TT frames, Pro team frames, etc. The BB shell was a pressed item and I refer you back to previous comments about frames being designed for "Mr average". If you design a frame to handle all possibilities then to almost all people it will be too heavy. A very large percentage of customers state they want a "light" frame. If I am designing a frame for a specific customer then I take all factors into consideration. If I am designing a "standard" frame to be sold off the peg  it is a balancing act of weight v durability to cover most of the mid range of possible riders and styles.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Russell on 20 November, 2013, 01:39:52 pm
Hi Dave

Can you help with this issue?

Mrs R is a little chap and a while ago we bought her an Islabike Luath 26 as a second bike.  After changing the bars to a swept back type it fits well enough.  A bit short in the chain stays perhaps but reach and standover are OK.  The steering however is another matter.  It is too light and floppy and the bike tends to over steer into corners.  This may be because of the change in riding position - more upright - and with those shorter chainstays this has taken weight off the front wheel.

How feasible would it be to change the offset of the forks to provide more stability?  I believe the offset would need to be increased, ie greater bend.  What kind of change would be required (how long is a piece of string question I know!)?  The forks are polished cro-moly.

Thanks

R
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 20 November, 2013, 01:52:18 pm
While you're waiting for Dave.....

Fork offset would need to be REDUCED to make the steering more stable.  Every few mm makes a noticeable difference.

See http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/trail.html

Quote
For a given steering angle, offsetting the hub forward reduces trail, while offestting the hub backward increases trail. This may seem counterintuitive, since very stable cruiser bikes usually have more fork rake than twitchy track bikes. But the other factor at work is the angle of the steerer -- cruiser bikes have very slack head tubes, so they have more trail despite their fork rake, not because of it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 November, 2013, 08:52:10 pm
Hi Dave

Can you help with this issue?

Mrs R is a little chap and a while ago we bought her an Islabike Luath 26 as a second bike.  After changing the bars to a swept back type it fits well enough.  A bit short in the chain stays perhaps but reach and standover are OK.  The steering however is another matter.  It is too light and floppy and the bike tends to over steer into corners.  This may be because of the change in riding position - more upright - and with those shorter chainstays this has taken weight off the front wheel.

How feasible would it be to change the offset of the forks to provide more stability?  I believe the offset would need to be increased, ie greater bend.  What kind of change would be required (how long is a piece of string question I know!)?  The forks are polished cro-moly.

Thanks

R

Hi Russell

Without seeing and more importantly measuring the bike in question I cannot give a hard and fast script. However, in principle "wot Biggsy said" If you increase the offset you will reduce the trail thus making it even more twitchy. I once rode a Dawes Kingpin small wheel shopper bike that the owner had "modified" by increasing the offset so much that the result was negative trail. It could be ridden in a straight line with both hands on the bars but at the least provocation the front wheel would try and reverse itself. Absolutely lethal !!!
The point to consider is that if you reduce the offset then the front centres and thus toe/wheel clearance will be reduced. However as Biggsy points out even a few mm could make a noticeable difference in this situation. As the forks are steel then altering the offset is perfectly feasible.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Cheer
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Russell on 21 November, 2013, 03:59:40 pm
Thanks Dave and Biggsy.  I'll check the front centres clearance against her other bike to see how much is available.  In the absence of a bike workshop what techniques could be employed?  My friend has a metal workshop with large vices and presses which I could use.

R
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 21 November, 2013, 05:23:23 pm
How about just replacing the forks instead of modifying them?  Carbon fibre could be a nice upgrade.  Or is there no choice of road forks for the wheel size?

Switching from 45 to 43 mm fork offset was enough on my full-size racer to go from being barely possible to ride no-handed to safe to ride no-handed.  The difference with hands on the bars is subtle, but still a pleasant little improvement.  I'd guess Mrs R would want more difference than that, but you've got to be careful not to go too far.

(I don't know how these numbers translate to little bikes).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Russell on 21 November, 2013, 10:48:03 pm
The bike is based around MTB 559 wheels so we would be looking slim road forks with mudguard eyes and canti studs.  Not a common fork I suspect.

I wait to be proved wrong.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: rafletcher on 03 January, 2014, 02:37:00 pm
While you're waiting for Dave.....

Fork offset would need to be REDUCED to make the steering more stable.  Every few mm makes a noticeable difference.

See http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/trail.html

Quote
For a given steering angle, offsetting the hub forward reduces trail, while offestting the hub backward increases trail. This may seem counterintuitive, since very stable cruiser bikes usually have more fork rake than twitchy track bikes. But the other factor at work is the angle of the steerer -- cruiser bikes have very slack head tubes, so they have more trail despite their fork rake, not because of it.

I've been comparing frame geometries, and was surprised how close in trial a "race" oriented frame (73 head angle, 45 offset) was to a "sportive" one (71.3 head angle, 53 offset). The difference in trial with same sized tyres was just 2mm (larger for the sportive frame). A difference that could be eliminated by changing one tyre size (from 25mm to 23mm of the Sportive). Would the handling then be the "same" for both?  I used this calculator http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 03 January, 2014, 04:14:14 pm
There's more to handling than trail, but steering stability would be basically the same.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 09 January, 2014, 09:09:39 pm
Not my problem but seen on another forum;
http://www.lfgss.com/thread120041.html#post4024652
and wondered what Dave would say about this?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 09 January, 2014, 11:01:25 pm
Hi Yoav

Looks pretty terminal to me. Not the smartest move threading an aluminium steerer, bound to break sooner or later not enough metal there. I am not familiar with Allan forks, probably possible to replace the column ie cut old one out, glue new one in. Personally I would not trust such a repair, far too critical an area.
Best bet, new forks

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 11 January, 2014, 12:09:47 pm
If it's an original Alan from the 70’s then it would be all aluminium including the forks with a threaded steerer. I suppose its a miracle it lasted this long.

I remember seeing one when they first came out; oddly futuristic and strangely attractive. I couldn't afford one.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 08 March, 2014, 09:07:19 pm
I have just (like this afternoon) been given one of those Peugeot frames with the lugless construction and the hidden brazing mentioned by Dave somewhere up post. It has a weakness for me in that the frame has mudguard eyes but the fork does not. How practical would it be to braze or weld (welding would have to be gas; no tig available) eyes to the fork ends solid enough to take a pair of low-loaders? I am pretty confident of my brazing skills and the low-loaders would be for light loads. Which would be the better choice, weld or braze?
I am not especially enthusiastic about P clips - not sure why, probably aesthetic.
Cheers Jo

PS the frame is free and requires guard eyes to justify its continued existence.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 10 March, 2014, 11:30:40 pm
Hi Mzjo,

Definitely braze, if you gas weld you will probably melt the braze securing the dropouts, if that then contaminates the weld you will end up with weak joints all round. Best bet with a job like this is to use Ceeway rear pannier mounts just behind the dropout. Much more brazing area for the sort of loaded pannier loads on this sort of joint. I this position you can fit mudguards as well.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mzjo on 12 March, 2014, 07:40:25 pm
Thanks Dave , that was just what I wanted to hear  :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: EMnut on 24 March, 2014, 07:45:54 pm
Hi Dave

I got a question about geometry in regards of seat set-back.

Due to my old tourer having a bent top tube and downtime, I've taken off all the working parts and put them on another road bike frame. My old frame has 531 decals on it, and is quite hefty, the new one is 501, but is much lighter (possibly because more of it is 501)

The new frame is bigger than the last one, the 1977 Galaxy was 23.5 inch the 1983 Raleigh Record Sprint is 25inch. However when I compare the old frame with new one, the relative positions of the crank to saddle height, and saddle to top tube are pretty much exactly the same. The only difference other than standover height, (the bigger frame allows me an inch of stander, I am 5ft11), is the angle of seat tube, it is steeper.

On the first few rides I've done I've had a sore lower back, so my thoughts were I need to set the saddle back more than my current seatpost allows. However looking at photos of racing cyclists from the 70s and 80s I've noticed that many of them tilt their saddles backwards a fraction, and that most of them are ridding with a Brookes saddle.

So my question is, other than setting back the saddle more, what else should I consider to make the frame more comfortable? Is it a case of being a harder road frame  and different position, pushed further forward in relation to the cranks means I need to get used a new riding position? Or would there be milage in a  longer stem (the current one is quite short), my other bike is a Bianchi road bike and this had a very low top tube and low bars, and I find it very comfortable?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Squarewheels on 12 April, 2014, 10:06:59 pm
Do you do advice on aluminium frames?  :hand:

I have a frame (Cervelo S1) that has a crack under the seat clamp (hairline). It makes many creaking noises.

My question is then...Is this about to end in some sort of catastrophic failure which could kill me and anyone in the surrounding area?

And:

Should/Could it continue to be used as it is?

And:

Is it worth getting it reapired and heat treated? What would that cost?

Thanks
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: jsabine on 28 April, 2014, 03:37:58 pm
It's fairly clear that my experiment with a shorter wheelbase bike hasn't worked, and that although I was able to make these modifications with the help of a large wooden post and about 100kgx25km/h worth of kinetic energy, I'll need professional help to reverse the process.

The forks, clearly, are FUBAR (though I don't know whether they're beyond the attentions of Mr Scaffold Pole); more seriously, there's a crease in the head tube just above the lower bearing race, as the joint transitions into the tube.

I can't tell whether there's also a crease in the down tube and top tube - I don't think so, because although there's a tiny lump in each - again, at the end of the joint/tube transition - I remember noticing these several times well before the crash, and there's something similar at the seat tube end of the top tube.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7297/14050375194_a0d3992b75_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/npzR3b)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7443/14069828673_4b673575c8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nrixSZ)
(Loads more photos, none of them as clear as I'd hope, in this Flickr album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/124069025@N05/sets/72157644383704002).)

Opinions welcome - once I've stripped it, is it even worth sending it off to someone for a proper look? Any ideas as to ballpark repair costs?

I have no sentimental attachment to the frame, though it has been extremely comfortable and a very nice ride; it cost me buttons and I don't even know what tubing it is (though I was told high-end Columbus).

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 28 April, 2014, 06:48:26 pm
Is there a touch of toe overlap on that frame?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 28 April, 2014, 06:53:22 pm
Is there a touch of toe overlap on that frame?

If the front wheel was the other side of the down-tube it might still be ok for the track.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: jsabine on 28 April, 2014, 08:44:27 pm
Is there a touch of toe overlap on that frame?

If the front wheel was the other side of the down-tube it might still be ok for the track.

I did contemplate hoping for high-camber roads and only r/h bends. But yes, while you can cope with toeclip overlap, downtube overlap's a bit more of a fundamental problem.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 28 April, 2014, 08:49:37 pm
Is there a touch of toe overlap on that frame?

If the front wheel was the other side of the down-tube it might still be ok for the track.

I did contemplate hoping for high-camber roads and only r/h bends. But yes, while you can cope with toeclip overlap, downtube overlap's a bit more of a fundamental problem.

Sorry, shouldn't joke. It's nasty when that happens to a frame. Hope you can sort it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: clarion on 28 April, 2014, 08:51:12 pm
I hope you can sort it.  Won't be cheap, mind.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: jsabine on 28 April, 2014, 11:01:12 pm
Oh, no point in not joking about it. It happened because I'm a muppet who wasn't looking where he was going, and I'm fine. Well, pissed off, but fine apart from that.

The immediate solution is to fish out the Roberts frame I have in the loft and get myself in gear to build that, and then find out whether this one is terminal. At least sorting the Roberts will be effort rather than money as I think I have everything I need.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 29 April, 2014, 01:19:05 pm
Now then,

I am afraid that looks pretty terminal. From your description it seems everything forward of the seat tube is donald ducked. Cost of repair would be in the £500+ region, ie new top / down and head tubes and new forks  and it would never be the same again. Best to write it off to experience.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: jsabine on 29 April, 2014, 02:09:01 pm
Clearly that's not the answer I was looking for ... (though the one I thought I was likely to get).

As I said though, I don't think (or at least I don't want to believe) that the top and down tubes are affected - once I've stripped the parts, is there a straightforward way of telling for sure? I'm pretty sure that the tiny lumps I mention were there before the crash and are no worse now.

If I've been lucky, how practical might a new headtube be?

Cheers

John

(On the upside, the front wheel is, unsurprisingly, still true.)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 April, 2014, 08:45:42 am
Hi John

Upon closer inspection of your pics I think the tiny lumps you describe are in fact undercuts on the top and down tubes where the builder has been a little over enthusiastic with his cleaning up of the fillets. Initially I read this as classic front end damage where the front triangle has been pushed up and back  This undercutting would normally be considered a fault but as the joints have survived the impact then I would say it is not a matter for concern. The forks are definitely beyond redemption, I would not risk repairing these, I suspect a Mickey Mouse Metal steerer for it to bend so much.
Without inspecting the frame in the flesh I cannot be absolutely sure but a new head tube is a possibility. The problems faced by anyone attempting this on a fillet brazed frame are  getting the old tube off without damaging the top and down tube, then getting the remnants of the fillets off the tubes so it is not an easy job. Of course with any major repair such as this there is always a risk, it will never be "as good as new".  If I were to do this you would be looking at about £200 for the metalwork. Other builders are available  ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 April, 2014, 08:57:35 am
Do you do advice on aluminium frames?  :hand:

I have a frame (Cervelo S1) that has a crack under the seat clamp (hairline). It makes many creaking noises.

My question is then...Is this about to end in some sort of catastrophic failure which could kill me and anyone in the surrounding area?

And:

Should/Could it continue to be used as it is?

And:

Is it worth getting it reapired and heat treated? What would that cost?

Thanks

Hi Squarewheels

Abject apologies for missing your post, I have been very busy recently and just missed it.
I dont do aluminium frames but from your description of the crack it may be weldable by someone who knows what they are doing. For an area like this I dont think heat treatment is an issue and it depends on which alloy it is as to whether it was heat treated in the first place.

Sorry, thats the best I can do.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 30 April, 2014, 09:13:33 am
Hi Dave

I got a question about geometry in regards of seat set-back.

Due to my old tourer having a bent top tube and downtime, I've taken off all the working parts and put them on another road bike frame. My old frame has 531 decals on it, and is quite hefty, the new one is 501, but is much lighter (possibly because more of it is 501)

The new frame is bigger than the last one, the 1977 Galaxy was 23.5 inch the 1983 Raleigh Record Sprint is 25inch. However when I compare the old frame with new one, the relative positions of the crank to saddle height, and saddle to top tube are pretty much exactly the same. The only difference other than standover height, (the bigger frame allows me an inch of stander, I am 5ft11), is the angle of seat tube, it is steeper.

On the first few rides I've done I've had a sore lower back, so my thoughts were I need to set the saddle back more than my current seatpost allows. However looking at photos of racing cyclists from the 70s and 80s I've noticed that many of them tilt their saddles backwards a fraction, and that most of them are ridding with a Brookes saddle.

So my question is, other than setting back the saddle more, what else should I consider to make the frame more comfortable? Is it a case of being a harder road frame  and different position, pushed further forward in relation to the cranks means I need to get used a new riding position? Or would there be milage in a  longer stem (the current one is quite short), my other bike is a Bianchi road bike and this had a very low top tube and low bars, and I find it very comfortable?

Hi Mr Nut

As with Squarewheels many apologies for missing your post, I plead a) pressure of work and b) senility !!
It is virtually impossible for me to give advice on position problems without seeing you in the flesh sitting on the bike in question. There are just too many variables however I will do what I can.
Sore anywhere usually indicates that particular area being under abnormal stress. I normally associate lower back ache with seat too high. Try sitting on the bike with your heels on the pedals, pedal backwrds, if your bottom rolls from side to side then your seat is possibly too high. Measure the distance from BB centre to saddle top then try dropping it until you can pedal with your heels with no lateral movement of your bottom on the saddle.
As I said, difficult to be precise but try that and see what happens, if you are not happy then put the saddle back where it was  and try raising your bars a touch.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: jsabine on 30 April, 2014, 10:44:38 pm
Upon closer inspection of your pics I think the tiny lumps you describe are in fact undercuts on the top and down tubes where the builder has been a little over enthusiastic with his cleaning up of the fillets. Initially I read this as classic front end damage where the front triangle has been pushed up and back  This undercutting would normally be considered a fault but as the joints have survived the impact then I would say it is not a matter for concern. The forks are definitely beyond redemption, I would not risk repairing these, I suspect a Mickey Mouse Metal steerer for it to bend so much.

Without inspecting the frame in the flesh I cannot be absolutely sure but a new head tube is a possibility. The problems faced by anyone attempting this on a fillet brazed frame are  getting the old tube off without damaging the top and down tube, then getting the remnants of the fillets off the tubes so it is not an easy job. Of course with any major repair such as this there is always a risk, it will never be "as good as new".  If I were to do this you would be looking at about £200 for the metalwork. Other builders are available  ;D

Hurrah! I knew that if I asked often enough, I'd get an answer that was closer to one I liked. If I ask again about the price, will it come down to £100?

I presume that your approx cost is simply for a new fillet brazed headtube, and I'd also have paint and a new set of forks on top? It's going to be (more than) a little while before I've raked enough out of the back of the sofa to contemplate a repair, and I think I'll try to track down the original builder as a first port of call (doubt I'll get far with that though), but thanks very much for your advice here, and you may well end up seeing this in the metal.

Thanks too for your info about the undercutting - I'd assumed that this wasn't quite how things were meant to be, but that the practical effect was harmless in this case.

As for the forks, I've not taken them out yet but am fairly sure that the steerer was stamped Columbus when I did look at them a while ago - didn't think it was monkey metal. I did hit the post quite hard though.

All much appreciated

John
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: terryb on 09 May, 2014, 04:37:28 pm
My grandson was servicing a boiler today and ended up with a very old bike which he rescued from the customers intended trip to the tip
A Viking, so assume its 60`s/70`s/80`s. which one he hasn`t said yet, but
he asks if the bottom bracket "is cassette or free balls"  ;D
was I right to inform him it should be British thread and 68mm wide and to try the cassette BB he has just taken off his `good` bike after a slight upgrade
This I think should answer his questions and will also show if the shell is knackered thread wise
now to my question.......eventually
How easy and cheap is it to sort the bottom bracket out if there is a problem ?
I remember having to use O/size cups on a MCLEAN frame in the early 70`s
Good news is, he says everything is there  :thumbsup:
thanks in advance for any help
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 09 May, 2014, 07:02:12 pm
My grandson was servicing a boiler today and ended up with a very old bike which he rescued from the customers intended trip to the tip
A Viking, so assume its 60`s/70`s/80`s. which one he hasn`t said yet, but
he asks if the bottom bracket "is cassette or free balls"  ;D
was I right to inform him it should be British thread and 68mm wide and to try the cassette BB he has just taken off his `good` bike after a slight upgrade
This I think should answer his questions and will also show if the shell is knackered thread wise
now to my question.......eventually
How easy and cheap is it to sort the bottom bracket out if there is a problem ?
I remember having to use O/size cups on a MCLEAN frame in the early 70`s
Good news is, he says everything is there  :thumbsup:
thanks in advance for any help

Hi Terry

It should be a standard British threaded BB. I cant answer the question about howeasy it is to fix without seeing it !!! There are too many possibilities, however as it is a steel frame it is "fixable" no matter what , if any the problems are. If the cassette does not fit then give me a shout and I will see what I can do.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Furious on 18 May, 2014, 07:40:49 pm
Washing my bike yesterday morning, in preparation for the #Space4Cycling #BigRide, I noticed this crack at the top of the RH seatstay.

(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo55/Rijidij61/Cycling/Bosanova/JamisFrameCrack.jpg)

I should be concerned, yes?

The bike is only about 8 months old. The frame is Reynolds 520.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 18 May, 2014, 08:40:04 pm
Not something I'd like to ride for too long. The failure mode would likely be fairly benign though.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 18 May, 2014, 08:45:07 pm
Those welds look really rough. What make is the bike? 
It should be repairable.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Furious on 18 May, 2014, 10:03:19 pm
It's a Jamis.
I'll be taking it back to the shop tomorrow, and see what they have to say about it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 18 May, 2014, 10:23:17 pm
I've looked closely at some Jamis bikes and been impressed. Sorry to say this, but that is absolutely appalling. I think you should press for a replacement frame.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 May, 2014, 10:03:18 am
Washing my bike yesterday morning, in preparation for the #Space4Cycling #BigRide, I noticed this crack at the top of the RH seatstay.

(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo55/Rijidij61/Cycling/Bosanova/JamisFrameCrack.jpg)

I should be concerned, yes?

The bike is only about 8 months old. The frame is Reynolds 520.

Now then Furious
(You certainly should be at that)   Eight months old with a break in a place that it should never happen !!!!  Replacement frame under warranty without doubt. That is a rubbish weld that has undercut the seat tube. What I cannot see from your picture is how much seat pin is inside the seat tube. You really need the end of the pin to be well below the joints to give support to the area.
Do keep us informed about what happens when you take it back.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikenrrd on 20 May, 2014, 10:13:23 am
A silly question: how much does a full set of lugs and cast bottom bracket weigh, for a normal diameter tubed frame and an oversize diameter tubed frame?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 May, 2014, 11:44:29 am
A silly question: how much does a full set of lugs and cast bottom bracket weigh, for a normal diameter tubed frame and an oversize diameter tubed frame?

Thanks.

I have no idea !! I will attempt to weigh a set when I get a minute. The difference will be negligible.

Dave yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: grani on 20 May, 2014, 11:59:54 am
I have an audax frame that I am having a disc mount brazed onto. I am however wondering if I am better off putting the caliper on the chainstay or seat stay.

If on the CS then I can use normal rack and mudguards but with a cable run under the downtube and be restricted to 160mm discs or bigger.

If I put it on the SS then I can use 140 or 160mm discs and have a nicer cable run but will lose at least one brazed on eyelet and severely restrict the use of the other one (for a rack at least).

Of course there needs to be a brace put in if the caliper is on the SS but are there any other serious considerations?

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 May, 2014, 01:30:24 pm
I have an audax frame that I am having a disc mount brazed onto. I am however wondering if I am better off putting the caliper on the chainstay or seat stay.

If on the CS then I can use normal rack and mudguards but with a cable run under the downtube and be restricted to 160mm discs or bigger.

If I put it on the SS then I can use 140 or 160mm discs and have a nicer cable run but will lose at least one brazed on eyelet and severely restrict the use of the other one (for a rack at least).

Of course there needs to be a brace put in if the caliper is on the SS but are there any other serious considerations?

Hi Grani

I would be inclined to put it on the chainstay as the seatstay mount will, as you say, foul the rack mounts. I have done this on quite a few occaisions and whilst it is a bit more of a fiddle I think it is a better solution.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: grani on 20 May, 2014, 02:15:49 pm
I have an audax frame that I am having a disc mount brazed onto. I am however wondering if I am better off putting the caliper on the chainstay or seat stay.

If on the CS then I can use normal rack and mudguards but with a cable run under the downtube and be restricted to 160mm discs or bigger.

If I put it on the SS then I can use 140 or 160mm discs and have a nicer cable run but will lose at least one brazed on eyelet and severely restrict the use of the other one (for a rack at least).

Of course there needs to be a brace put in if the caliper is on the SS but are there any other serious considerations?

Hi Grani

I would be inclined to put it on the chainstay as the seatstay mount will, as you say, foul the rack mounts. I have done this on quite a few occaisions and whilst it is a bit more of a fiddle I think it is a better solution.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Thank you very much for the advice it is much appreciated. I think I will try to put it on the chainstay. There is not a lot of room but it should just about fit.

I have tried to do as much research as possible and I can't find any compelling arguments for or against either in terms of structural integrity. Obviously apart from adding a brace between the chainstay and seat stay.

Do you have any experience with either failing because of a lack of strength in the tubing?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 May, 2014, 07:09:00 pm
Quote
Do you have any experience with either failing because of a lack of strength in the tubing?

I have seen seat stays break after a disc mount fitting but never a chainstay mount. A lot of seatstays are very thin walled and not suitable at all for this sort of treatment.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 20 May, 2014, 11:06:58 pm
A silly question: how much does a full set of lugs and cast bottom bracket weigh, for a normal diameter tubed frame and an oversize diameter tubed frame?

Thanks.

I have no idea !! I will attempt to weigh a set when I get a minute. The difference will be negligible.

Dave yates

Set of Long Shen cast lugs and BB shell for 1 1/4" DT and 1 1/8" ST and TT = 283g
Set of Long Shen ditto for1 3/8" DT ! 1/4" TT and ST = 287g

Like I said, negligible  ;D

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikenrrd on 21 May, 2014, 01:32:18 pm
A silly question: how much does a full set of lugs and cast bottom bracket weigh, for a normal diameter tubed frame and an oversize diameter tubed frame?

Thanks.

I have no idea !! I will attempt to weigh a set when I get a minute. The difference will be negligible.

Dave yates

Set of Long Shen cast lugs and BB shell for 1 1/4" DT and 1 1/8" ST and TT = 283g
Set of Long Shen ditto for1 3/8" DT ! 1/4" TT and ST = 287g

Like I said, negligible  ;D

Dave Yates

Thanks Dave.  I asked as I was trying to work out how much lighter a tig welded vs lugged frame would be.  I'm guessing 200 grams, now.

I also read somewhere that the Eddy Merckx MX Leader was heavy due to its oversize lugs.  I have a Merckx Corsa Extra, which weighs 2.1kg for the frame, so I can't see the MX Leader weighing much more than that.

All lugged steel frames in my size (550/550) seem to weight 2.1kg! :)

Anyway, I said it was a silly question! :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Furious on 28 May, 2014, 08:59:00 pm
Washing my bike yesterday morning, in preparation for the #Space4Cycling #BigRide, I noticed this crack at the top of the RH seatstay.

(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo55/Rijidij61/Cycling/Bosanova/JamisFrameCrack.jpg)

I should be concerned, yes?

The bike is only about 8 months old. The frame is Reynolds 520.

Now then Furious
(You certainly should be at that)   Eight months old with a break in a place that it should never happen !!!!  Replacement frame under warranty without doubt. That is a rubbish weld that has undercut the seat tube. What I cannot see from your picture is how much seat pin is inside the seat tube. You really need the end of the pin to be well below the joints to give support to the area.
Do keep us informed about what happens when you take it back.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Thanks Dave,

I don't want to say too much as I'm still waiting on a decision from the dealer on this.
(It's not too difficult to guess who the shop is.. AFAIK, they're the only Jamis dealer in the land).

The shop manager originally said they would be able to source me a replacement within a week if I could get the bike to them quickly (which of course, I did).
When I dropped the bike off, the timescale changed to 2 weeks. Then another staff member phoned me later and informed me that it could take up to 4 weeks, because they were "very busy" (what does that have to do with me?).

I will certainly elaborate further when this matter is resolved.

I checked, and the seatpost has about 20cm (almost 8") inside the seat tube.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 02 June, 2014, 09:39:28 am
Other than cost, other there any advantages to TIG welding over brazing steel frames?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 June, 2014, 08:10:21 pm
Lower weight
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 02 June, 2014, 08:47:49 pm
Lower weight

Is that significant on a steel frame? Damn ugly though  :P
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 June, 2014, 10:05:20 pm
Whether weight is important depends on the rider. The heat effects of TIG, brass brazing and silver brazing mean that different tubing and butting can be used.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikenrrd on 02 June, 2014, 10:32:45 pm
Lower weight

Is that significant on a steel frame? Damn ugly though  :P

Would you buy a hi-ten steel frame? :)
As above - lug less frames will save about 200 grams.  That's a 10% weight saving on a typical steel frame.  Made from something decent, of course :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 03 June, 2014, 07:45:51 am
Lugless used to mean fillet brazed. Maybe still does. Looks much nicer than these welds.

Ah well, that's progress for you.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 12 June, 2014, 12:59:16 pm
Other than cost, other there any advantages to TIG welding over brazing steel frames?

Hi Yoav

The advantages of TIG fall mainly to the manufacturer. The process is quicker and cleaner so the tiresome process of cleaning up brazed joints is all but eliminated. With aluminium it is the only process worth considering. Weight can be saved on a steel frame against a brazed frame either lugged or fillet brazed. There is less filler rod, the butts can be shorter as less heat is involved and obviously you lose a complete set of lugs and the sockets on the BB shell. Mechanically a perfectly good way of building a frame, aesthetically not so sure IMHO.


Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Euan Uzami on 10 July, 2014, 10:58:11 am
Hi Dave,
In reference to this: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=36893.75
At least two cases, one of which mine, where a seat post (aluminium / alloy) has seized in an 853-tubed frame.
Can you comment on the whether or not 853 tubing is particularly prone to this?

And if so can you suggest an alternative? And if so whether you do any off the peg frames made out of this that would take an OEM rohloff (i.e. with deep rear dropouts) or whether I would be looking at custom.

And can you comment on whether "dissolving the seat post with caustic soda" could have any detrimental effect on the frame?

TIA, Ben.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 10 July, 2014, 09:49:47 pm
Hi Dave,
In reference to this: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=36893.75
At least two cases, one of which mine, where a seat post (aluminium / alloy) has seized in an 853-tubed frame.
Can you comment on the whether or not 853 tubing is particularly prone to this?

And if so can you suggest an alternative? And if so whether you do any off the peg frames made out of this that would take an OEM rohloff (i.e. with deep rear dropouts) or whether I would be looking at custom.

And can you comment on whether "dissolving the seat post with caustic soda" could have any detrimental effect on the frame?

TIA, Ben.

Hi Ben

853 is steel !! steel and aluminium in the presence of damp ideally saline "damp" will set off galvanic corrosion also known as "seized seat pin syndrome". This tube is neither better or worse in this respect in my experience, all (non stainless)steel is the same, I cant comment on any of the (so called) stainless tubes as I have little experience of them.
I dont do "off the peg" frames  :o
I have no experience of using caustic soda to remove seat pins but it seems to work.
What I do is if the frame is being resprayed I heat the seat tube to, I suppose about 300C, using the oxy acetylene torch, then leave it to cool for 30mins or so. Grip the seat pln in the vice along the jaws not across then using the frame as a lever get it turning and pull it out. The heat destroys the corrosion which makes extraction easy. Sometimes a spot of Plus Gas helps.
If the paint needs to be saved then I use an industrial die grinder with a tungsten carbide cutter brazed onto an extension shaft to carefully cut through the pin which allows it to collapse into the seat tube and be pulled out. I have also done this on Carbon frames. This assumes that the customer has left me enough seat pin to get a grip on. DO NOT CUT IT OFF FLUSH WITH THE SEAT LUG to "help". Several times I have had to weld an extension onto the stub of a seat pln to give me something to grip in the vice.

I have, I suppose, done several hundred, possibly thousand, jobs of this nature during the last 35 years and as far as I know with no damage to the frames. All I would say is dont try either method at home unless you know exactly what you are doing.

The best advice I can give is make sure the pin is clean when you fit it and plenty of grease or anti seize compound such as Coppaslip. Then at least once a year take it out, clean it, regrease it and replace.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: bikenrrd on 10 July, 2014, 10:50:58 pm
You could also use a carbon fibre seat post. :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Euan Uzami on 11 July, 2014, 09:53:34 am
Hi Ben

853 is steel !! steel and aluminium in the presence of damp ideally saline "damp" will set off galvanic corrosion also known as "seized seat pin syndrome". This tube is neither better or worse in this respect in my experience, all (non stainless)steel is the same, I cant comment on any of the (so called) stainless tubes as I have little experience of them.
I dont do "off the peg" frames  :o
I have no experience of using caustic soda to remove seat pins but it seems to work.
What I do is if the frame is being resprayed I heat the seat tube to, I suppose about 300C, using the oxy acetylene torch, then leave it to cool for 30mins or so. Grip the seat pln in the vice along the jaws not across then using the frame as a lever get it turning and pull it out. The heat destroys the corrosion which makes extraction easy. Sometimes a spot of Plus Gas helps.
If the paint needs to be saved then I use an industrial die grinder with a tungsten carbide cutter brazed onto an extension shaft to carefully cut through the pin which allows it to collapse into the seat tube and be pulled out. I have also done this on Carbon frames. This assumes that the customer has left me enough seat pin to get a grip on. DO NOT CUT IT OFF FLUSH WITH THE SEAT LUG to "help". Several times I have had to weld an extension onto the stub of a seat pln to give me something to grip in the vice.

I have, I suppose, done several hundred, possibly thousand, jobs of this nature during the last 35 years and as far as I know with no damage to the frames. All I would say is dont try either method at home unless you know exactly what you are doing.

The best advice I can give is make sure the pin is clean when you fit it and plenty of grease or anti seize compound such as Coppaslip. Then at least once a year take it out, clean it, regrease it and replace.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Brilliant thank you Dave, sounds like you're a dab hand at it so I'll probably get in touch re bringing it round when i've next got a day off as I'm not that far from you.

I have cut it off but not flush, I've left about a centimetre to an inch to grab hold of.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: blackburnrod on 21 September, 2014, 06:39:51 pm
I have a 30 year old Duralinox 979 60cm frame on which the seat tube has unbonded from the bottom bracket.Is it feasible/worthwhile trying to repair or have repaired this? If so any advice on procedure or repairers?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: phillip on 30 September, 2014, 01:43:41 pm
its sorted now,  but......advise/comments welcome
I have a Marin Pine Mountain Mtb hardtail circa 1993/5
had no problems over the years and still had its original ch/set and BB. Been removed and refitted a few times over the years for cleaning and stuff natch
Recently decided to do a wee project and get it kitted out with disc brakes and a dyno bracket for a bit of expedition type trailer towing
Mounts fitted by R4 and his crew  ;)
Then decided that it needed a new(er) BB and ch/set
same brand shimano deore triple with bigger rings
All went to plan until fitting the crank side BB cup, which wouldn`t  :'(
after a bit of faffing about and wearing my thumb nail out tracing the thread start and direction of the new...and the old cups....bugger...diff er ent rotations
Never noticed before
So took a left, crank, cup out of another bike. Yep, same as new ch/set.  + they have the direction arrows on
So also took the right, ch/set cup out and tried that. Okikdoki. put the donor parts back.
got onto CRC,  very helpful,  but unheard of situation so we were both left head and things scratching
Simple solution was to buy another BB51 assy:  cheap enough at £7,
so now the Marin has 2 ch/set side BB cups fitted
BB shell is 67. summat on the vernier. didn`t bother with the summats `cos it was near enuff 68mm for me
I wiil know for future ref: but any ideas on why it is thus, who did what and why ?
Got the bike fully assembled from someone back in the mists of time in the Shipley/Otley area. Not Ellis Briggs.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 September, 2014, 01:49:16 pm
If I'm reading this correctly, the factory used a LH thread tap on both sides of the BB shell?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: phillip on 30 September, 2014, 02:07:21 pm
If I'm reading this correctly, the factory used a LH thread tap on both sides of the BB shell?

Crank side same as Chset side, so the answer would be yes, both lh thread
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 30 September, 2014, 02:10:31 pm
French/Italian threading?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 September, 2014, 02:15:32 pm
Both RH thread in those cases but different diameters.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Biggsy on 30 September, 2014, 02:30:14 pm
My guesses:

1.  The left LH thread was cut to override an original RH thread that got badly damaged.

2.  Pure mistake.

3.  Made for a circus performing backwards cyclist.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 27 October, 2014, 09:49:17 am
Now then people,

I must apologise for my lack of presence over the last few months, been stupidly busy along with a few physical and domestic problems. I know I have missed a few communications so if any of the queries are still current re send and I wil see what I can do.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tim Hall on 13 November, 2014, 07:43:30 pm
Dave, whereabouts did you put the frame number on your M Steel frames? I'm looking at one on Ebay and am trying to find out a bit more about it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tiermat on 13 November, 2014, 07:46:54 pm
Dave, whereabouts did you put the frame number on your M Steel frames? I'm looking at one on Ebay and am trying to find out a bit more about it.

Ask Fungus, he has one.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 13 November, 2014, 09:38:12 pm
Dave, whereabouts did you put the frame number on your M Steel frames? I'm looking at one on Ebay and am trying to find out a bit more about it.

Under the BB shell and on the steering column. Very early frames were numbered using a vibrating engraver so may be quite indistinct but the numbers will be there.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tim Hall on 20 November, 2014, 09:37:05 pm
Frame arrived today. MS550.  The paint is showing its age so I'm thinking about getting it powder coated.  Are replacement decals available?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tiermat on 21 November, 2014, 06:20:54 am
Frame arrived today. MS550.  The paint is showing its age so I'm thinking about getting it powder coated.  Are replacement decals available?

Heretic! PC? Noooooo.

Having said that, tld's Paul Donohue got powder coated and looks gorgeous. That frame is not lugged, though.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tim Hall on 21 November, 2014, 02:38:54 pm
Frame arrived today. MS550.  The paint is showing its age so I'm thinking about getting it powder coated.  Are replacement decals available?

Heretic! PC? Noooooo.

Having said that, tld's Paul Donohue got powder coated and looks gorgeous. That frame is not lugged, though.

I know. Trouble is, the last frame (the Mercian) I had resprayed went waaaaay over budget, although to be fair that was down to me adding extras (take out that dent, remove that bracket, remove that stem, headset, decals, contrasting head tube ect ect). And it took a long while.  I shall ponder.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Tim Hall on 22 November, 2014, 11:10:04 am
And having pondered, I think I'll finish building it up, see how it rides. If it's good, I'll send it off to Coningsby for proper painting. (Being a bit slow on the uptake, I didn't realise that Dave did renovations)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: yoav on 22 November, 2014, 06:03:45 pm
Having been there, I've seen Dave's renovations, and very good they are too. Cheaper than Mercian, probably.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tiermat on 22 November, 2014, 06:50:50 pm
Oooo, is this where I post a pick of adave's handywork on Mrs T's Carlton? :)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 23 November, 2014, 12:26:39 pm
Hi Tim
MS550 was a frame made for shop stock in 1984 so I have no idea who bought it ! I have M.Steel decals but probably not exactly the same as original. If you like it afterriding it drop us a line via the website and I can certainly sort it out for you.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tiermat on 23 November, 2014, 12:43:44 pm
Oooo, is this where I post a pick of adave's handywork on Mrs T's Carlton? :)

Here, paint and refurb (including removing some braise ons and adding others) by Mr Y, build by Torslanda.

Colour choice by Mrs T :)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Dav3loluIHI/VHHV9vAKEvI/AAAAAAAAGhg/rJQk21XImjk/w1068-h801-no/P1000119.JPG)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: ACyclingRooster on 23 November, 2014, 03:45:59 pm
Hi tiermat. Striking paint job but are you not worried about it coming off of the tyres ? ;D 8) ::-)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Jethro on 24 November, 2014, 09:33:43 pm
Does anyone know why some frame builders will not build a 953 frame fillet brazed?

I have contacted Reynolds who have confirmed that the fillet brazing of 953 can be done quite successfully,instead, most builders use either Tig welding (Brian Rourke) or will only build with lugs.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 November, 2014, 09:42:59 pm
There are some interesting (if you are a metallurgist or corrosion engineer) corrosion possibilities when combining some steels with some braze materials. HK is getting a fillet brazed stainless frame in the next year but I've not quite settled on the materials. I'm not sure whether that is why some framebuilders are not wanting to fillet braze 953 though.

Another possibility is that 953 is very, very thin and most fillet brazing is brass, so there is a fair amount of heat distortion. Silver fillet brazing has lower heat input but there are other disadvantages (as always).
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: tiermat on 25 November, 2014, 07:14:37 am
Hi tiermat. Striking paint job but are you not worried about it coming off of the tyres ? ;D 8) ::-)

;D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 13 February, 2015, 04:36:57 pm
I wonder if the collective can help me with this.

An early 80s Clements frame with odd downtube bosses.

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/shedbike/WP_001001_zpsqqggojsl.jpg)

I'm struggling to get levers to fit on.

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/shedbike/WP_001000_zpsjmzu2wfy.jpg)

None of the downtube levers I have will fit. I've tried Simplex, Campag, Shimano indexed & friction and I'm kind of stumped. The thread is definitely NOT M5.

Suggestions if anyone has any - keep it clean, please!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 February, 2015, 07:21:53 pm
Aren't they the unique braze ons that Shimano used in the AX era before they went back to matching the Campagnolo shape?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 13 February, 2015, 08:45:43 pm
They are indeed what LW&B said !!! I even have some in a pot somewhere if anybody wants one  ;) The thread as I recall is 4.5mm. Shades of Betamax

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 13 February, 2015, 08:48:52 pm
I will have a play with some bits and see if I can suggest a solution

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 13 February, 2015, 09:13:03 pm
I will have a play with some bits and see if I can suggest a solution

Dave Yates

I love this place! I don't want to spoil the paint but if that's the only option . . .
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: jsabine on 13 February, 2015, 11:20:53 pm
As ever, someone else (http://simplicityvintagecycles.com/2012/04/09/the-kodiak-saga-continues/) has had the very same problem, albeit they solved it for downtube cable stops not for different levers ...

Drill press, file, M5 tap (though disappointingly not an angle grinder. Oh sorry, that's a meme from Another Place).

That frame looks like it's got some tidy touches.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 14 February, 2015, 12:25:24 pm
Looks like I'll need a pair of the 600 or Dura Ace AX levers. Anyone got anything in the loft/shed/bits box?  :D
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: croissante on 14 February, 2015, 04:20:06 pm
Hi Dave,

An old frame of yours (maybe 10-15y old? I don't know) was recently passed on to me by an old cyclist who no longer needed it. I've just gotten around to building it up, and was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the frame? I had initially fingered the frame as a light tourer, but looking at it all componented up it strikes me now more as an audax/randonneé bike. Any chance you can clarify? Regardless, I have been told that it was used to tour France, so it should fit my purposes, but it'd be interesting to know!

Secondly, could I ask about frame clearances/space for mudguards? I have built it up with 28c Schwalbe Marathons (+Greenguard), and at the rear stays, there is about 2mm of clearance at the lowest, where there is a protrusion of the brake bridge, which I assume is a mudguard mount of some kind (it is threaded). Not even enough clearance for Crud Roadracers! Is this simply a matter of choosing a smaller tyre, or am I missing something? I reckon that with a different rear brake (the current one only clears the tyre when you tension the cable) and by filing off the mount that I could fit a Crud mudguard in the gap. Thoughts?

In any case, I gotta say: this is possibly the nicest frame I've ever ridden, and I've only done about three miles on it so far! The ride is ultra smooth, and I'm barely feeling bumps in the road... (it's also nice to be on a frame that isn't two sizes too big for me)

Frame (click through for bigger):
(http://i.imgur.com/ptlk1HDm.jpg?1) (http://i.imgur.com/ptlk1HD.jpg)

Rear clearance:
(http://i.imgur.com/TfKaTJOm.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/TfKaTJO.jpg)

Mudguard mounts (?)
(http://i.imgur.com/CpNsHwam.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/CpNsHwa.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/J6Kk39wm.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/J6Kk39w.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 14 February, 2015, 08:13:08 pm
<sticks nose in where it's not wanted>

Marathons have a deep tread - the 25mm have a gigger profile than some 28s. I once tried to fit some 28s on a Carrera Gryphon and couldn't get the damned wheel back in! May I suggest you look at some 25mm Durano Plus or similar. It looks like you'll get those in with room for some proper gaurds . . .
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: croissante on 15 February, 2015, 08:38:02 pm
<sticks nose in where it's not wanted>

Marathons have a deep tread - the 25mm have a gigger profile than some 28s. I once tried to fit some 28s on a Carrera Gryphon and couldn't get the damned wheel back in! May I suggest you look at some 25mm Durano Plus or similar. It looks like you'll get those in with room for some proper gaurds . . .

Reckon 25s would do for touring, though? Was planning on taking this bike on a tour of the west coast of Scotland somepoint this summer, I'll be needing tyres of a suitable width!

In any case, if all fails I could pick myself up a pair of these (http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-gb/gear/product/giant.road.fenders.defy.avail.rapid.dash/592/54781/), which may fit. Either that or get some VO metal mudguards and cut/file them similarly into submission.

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: JohnR on 15 February, 2015, 08:49:50 pm
I bought a pair of these for my giant ocr3 just fitted but rear one was short @ seat tube by about 3" or so and not enough clearance on 23mm gp4000's. Took them off in the end.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 February, 2015, 11:29:36 pm
Looks like I'll need a pair of the 600 or Dura Ace AX levers. Anyone got anything in the loft/shed/bits box?  :D

Just got back in the workshop today, busy doing other stuff all weekend. I cannot find the lever bosses I know were there !! I have been reorganising the workshop storage and have moved stuff around. I have no doubt they will turn up one day.
The link provided by jsabine looks like a viable option. You will be able to re tap the boss to M5 but dont use a drill press :o recipe for disaster if the drill snatches. The other thing to do is grind the point off the M5 tap or you will put a large dent in the down tube under the boss. (dont ask how I know this)
Your other alternative, as you have already mentioned, is to find some AX levers. It looks like a halfway decent frame so worth doing something with

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 February, 2015, 11:40:10 pm
Hi Dave,

An old frame of yours (maybe 10-15y old? I don't know) was recently passed on to me by an old cyclist who no longer needed it. I've just gotten around to building it up, and was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the frame? I had initially fingered the frame as a light tourer, but looking at it all componented up it strikes me now more as an audax/randonneé bike. Any chance you can clarify? Regardless, I have been told that it was used to tour France, so it should fit my purposes, but it'd be interesting to know!

Secondly, could I ask about frame clearances/space for mudguards? I have built it up with 28c Schwalbe Marathons (+Greenguard), and at the rear stays, there is about 2mm of clearance at the lowest, where there is a protrusion of the brake bridge, which I assume is a mudguard mount of some kind (it is threaded). Not even enough clearance for Crud Roadracers! Is this simply a matter of choosing a smaller tyre, or am I missing something? I reckon that with a different rear brake (the current one only clears the tyre when you tension the cable) and by filing off the mount that I could fit a Crud mudguard in the gap. Thoughts?

In any case, I gotta say: this is possibly the nicest frame I've ever ridden, and I've only done about three miles on it so far! The ride is ultra smooth, and I'm barely feeling bumps in the road... (it's also nice to be on a frame that isn't two sizes too big for me)

Frame (click through for bigger):
(http://i.imgur.com/ptlk1HDm.jpg?1) (http://i.imgur.com/ptlk1HD.jpg)

Rear clearance:
(http://i.imgur.com/TfKaTJOm.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/TfKaTJO.jpg)

Mudguard mounts (?)
(http://i.imgur.com/CpNsHwam.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/CpNsHwa.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/J6Kk39wm.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/J6Kk39w.jpg)

Having been responsible for some 12000 plus frames a frame number would be useful to narrow the possibilities  ;)
I looks like one of our Audax style frames built for 49 drop brakes and max 25 tyres. Those tyres you have fitted are too big !!
The frame number is under the BB shell and on the steering column.
I am afraid the componentry means nothing as we never built "standard" bikes every one was different and the bits will have changed over the life of the bike.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: croissante on 17 February, 2015, 12:50:26 am
Having been responsible for some 12000 plus frames a frame number would be useful to narrow the possibilities  ;)
I looks like one of our Audax style frames built for 49 drop brakes and max 25 tyres. Those tyres you have fitted are too big !!
The frame number is under the BB shell and on the steering column.
I am afraid the componentry means nothing as we never built "standard" bikes every one was different and the bits will have changed over the life of the bike.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Hi Dave,

Cheers for the reply- that description seems to fit the frame perfectly; the brake pads (on 47-57mm calipers) are hovering just near but not quite the top. Guess I'll have to get me some new tyres if I want to fit guards! Here's hoping that 25s will stand up to some light touring.

Regarding the frame number, I see a number on the BB shell, but nothing on the steering column. It reads 10796, and near it, embossed rather than engraved there seem to be the letters either E or F and a 1. Not sure that latter part is relevant!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 17 February, 2015, 10:42:12 am
10796 is a Super Randonneur made as a custom frame in Feb. 2001. It may have been sold as a bike but I dont have that info. At the time that model was made for 49 drop brakes and 25mm max tyres as default unless the customer specced deep drop and 28s It was actually one of a pair made for Husband and Wife.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: croissante on 17 February, 2015, 02:53:38 pm
10796 is a Super Randonneur made as a custom frame in Feb. 2001. It may have been sold as a bike but I dont have that info. At the time that model was made for 49 drop brakes and 25mm max tyres as default unless the customer specced deep drop and 28s It was actually one of a pair made for Husband and Wife.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Hi Dave,

That's definitely the one- I have seen its sibling frame, as that has found a new home as well. Cheers for the help- should be able to get this bike built up correctly!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 19 February, 2015, 12:22:44 am
Looks like I'll need a pair of the 600 or Dura Ace AX levers. Anyone got anything in the loft/shed/bits box?  :D

Just got back in the workshop today, busy doing other stuff all weekend. I cannot find the lever bosses I know were there !! I have been reorganising the workshop storage and have moved stuff around. I have no doubt they will turn up one day.
The link provided by jsabine looks like a viable option. You will be able to re tap the boss to M5 but dont use a drill press :o recipe for disaster if the drill snatches. The other thing to do is grind the point off the M5 tap or you will put a large dent in the down tube under the boss. (dont ask how I know this)
Your other alternative, as you have already mentioned, is to find some AX levers. It looks like a halfway decent frame so worth doing something with

Cheers

Dave Yates


Thanks for looking, Dave. I think I'm sorted with AX kit so no mods required.

Fingers crossed - we'll find out when the stuff I've bought lands. There's quite a bit on that *bay if you do a little research.

Was pleasantly surprised to find that the concealed cables actually run through full length conduits in the frame. Feeding cables through is a doddle.

Thanks again

luv'n'stuff

John Baron
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 24 February, 2015, 12:12:26 pm
Just fitted a pair of 600AX gear levers which arrived on Monday. In two minds now as to whether to source a full set - which would mean using the odd pedals - or just buy generic 600 (6200) stuff and build it piecmeal.

L'eroica, anyone?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Plug1n on 24 February, 2015, 12:27:27 pm
which would mean using the odd pedals

I should have a pair of adapters for AX to normal pedals somewhere, if you want.  Knocked about but servicable.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 24 February, 2015, 02:20:32 pm
which would mean using the odd pedals

I should have a pair of adapters for AX to normal pedals somewhere, if you want.  Knocked about but servicable.

Thinking that to do it right it should be full AX . . .
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Nick H. on 07 March, 2015, 08:52:59 pm
Hi Dave, I'm a former attendee of your course and I have a silly tyre-kicker's question which you may wish to ignore! Tom Donhou is offering TIG welded off the shelf frames in 850 Pro Team in 3 sizes. They are for disc brakes only. £2,295 gets you a frameset with Enve forks, a Chris King headset and a nice paint job. My question is: where is the money going??? I have a feeling your price would be about £1,000 lower. (Maybe if he gets loads of orders he'll ask you to build them!)

http://road.cc/content/news/130322-donhou-bicycles-signature-steel-dss1-disc-equipped-frameset-launched

P.S. I seem to remember you telling me that you can build a frame in a day. Have I got that right?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: steve Anglesey on 14 June, 2015, 09:21:20 pm
Hello Dave I wonder if you can give me some advice please?
I have a 2013 dawes galaxy. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that underneath one of the rack bosses the paint had come off and there was some rust there. I put some nail varnish over it after reading it suggested. I've now taken off the bolt that holds the rack in the boss and removed the rack and found that there is further paint damage and small amounts of rust around the opening to the boss. I take it this is what is referred to as surface rust. I don't know the difference between surface rust and other forms of rust. Is using nail varnish good enough to stop it spreading? Thank you Steve
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 02 July, 2015, 05:24:06 pm
Hi Dave, I'm a former attendee of your course and I have a silly tyre-kicker's question which you may wish to ignore! Tom Donhou is offering TIG welded off the shelf frames in 850 Pro Team in 3 sizes. They are for disc brakes only. £2,295 gets you a frameset with Enve forks, a Chris King headset and a nice paint job. My question is: where is the money going??? I have a feeling your price would be about £1,000 lower. (Maybe if he gets loads of orders he'll ask you to build them!)

http://road.cc/content/news/130322-donhou-bicycles-signature-steel-dss1-disc-equipped-frameset-launched

P.S. I seem to remember you telling me that you can build a frame in a day. Have I got that right?

Now then,

Sorry about the long delay, I used to get an e-mail to tell me something was here for me to answer, I've probably pressed the wrong button and unset that feature.

Headset and forks would retail at about 400, but that is just a guess, so that leaves around 1900 for the frame 853 Pro Team is not cheap and Tig Welding thin steel is a skill in its own right on a par with all the other frame building methods, if it is done right. Think Lightspeed, Lynskey etc. Tom is based in London and  has all the associated costs. He can charge what the market will stand, if priced too high the frames will not sell. I am currently building a similar frame, fillet brazed, which is around 1400. but I live in the wilds of Lincolnshire with very little in the way of overheads  ;D. However an article is priced some will say its too expensive, I find this with my courses but I have a very long list of potential students so it cant be that wrong.
I used to be able to build a bog standard horizontal top tube lugged frame and forks in a day but nowadays I rarely build such a beast.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 03 July, 2015, 01:31:54 pm
Hello Dave I wonder if you can give me some advice please?
I have a 2013 dawes galaxy. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that underneath one of the rack bosses the paint had come off and there was some rust there. I put some nail varnish over it after reading it suggested. I've now taken off the bolt that holds the rack in the boss and removed the rack and found that there is further paint damage and small amounts of rust around the opening to the boss. I take it this is what is referred to as surface rust. I don't know the difference between surface rust and other forms of rust. Is using nail varnish good enough to stop it spreading? Thank you Steve

Hi Steve
Same comment as above, I need to look into why no notification.
"suface rust" is exactly what it says in the tin. If you expose any non stainless ferrous metal to the elements it will start to oxidise quickly. It becomes a problem if nothing is done about it and the oxidisation eats into the metal. Your problem is minor and you have done someting about it, I prefer Humbrol model paint or smooth hammerite. Just keep an eye on it, if it comes back clean the rust off with some sort of abrasive cloth/paper and touch up with paint of some description.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Foghat on 25 February, 2016, 02:26:25 am
Hello Dave, I originally posted the query below in its own thread, but Samuel D pointed out it would be worth posting in your frame-related thread too.  Thanks!


With the standard of road surfaces in Britain declining so alarmingly from an already dire state, I've decided my Roberts commuter needs to be modified to take up to 35mm tyres (with mudguards).  This will also allow me to fit Continental Top Contact Winter Premium tyred wheels on dodgy days - these are nominally '37mm', but I understand they come up narrower than this.  And my 30mm Schwalbe Winters will fit without rubbing annoyingly.

Currently it just about takes 28mm tyres with Shimano BR650 brakes - it's their Audax frame with oversized downtube (Chas had been experimenting with the oversized tubing and I was willing to give it a go in a frame that was custom-built to my specified dimensions and fittings).

The frame transfer states 'Columbus Nivacrom', but of course Roberts were noted for mixing tubesets, so I don't actually know what individual tubes are made from.  Not sure what model Nivacrom it is - the transfer is under a chain-catcher which obscures the lower section of it, but I understand there are/were different types.  I'll look under the chain-catcher if it makes a difference.  My chainstays in this frame are 16.5mm wide horizontally and 31mm tall at the rim - I wonder if this helps identify the tubing?

I reckon by moving the brake bridge up 10mm and the chainstay bridge forwards by 8mm I will get plenty of clearance for the desired 35mm tyres.  This will necessitate switching to Tektro R559 deep-drop brakes, which are 55-73mm, compared with '47-57mm' for the BR650s.  45mm mudguards will squeeze in too, but I'll need a new fork.

So I'm wondering whether the seatstay and chainstay tubing will be up to a re-brazing (by an expert, of course), or is Nivacrom too thin or delicate to risk it (if that's what the stays are) - what do the frame tubing experts here think?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 25 February, 2016, 07:56:29 pm
Now then Mr Foghat,

First off, the concept of a"set" of frame tubes is a bit amorphous !! Reynolds, Columbus et al manufacture a range of tubes some of which are put in a box and called a "set" (this is called marketing) Any decent framebuilder building a custom frame will choose each tube to do the job required of it. Personally, I have never bought sets of tube for the last 30+ years and I assume Chas has done the same sort of buying.
To do the work you are talking about is not a problem, any competent framebuilder will be able to do this. If Iwas doing this job I would take the bridges out cold ie cut them out and file off the excess, then braze new bridges in the rquired position. I have done this sort of job hundreds of times with no probs.
You do need to bear in mind that if you fit longer forks then the BB height will increase, the head and seat angles will decrease and the standover height will increase, the frame pivoting about the rear axle. However if the increase in fork length is smallie less than 10mm, then these alterations will be relatively insignificant.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Foghat on 01 March, 2016, 06:16:23 am
Thanks Dave.  Good to know that re-heating the stays close to where they were initially brazed shouldn't compromise their integrity. I assume that's what you're saying.....if done competently?

Yes, the geometry changes are pretty minor, and easily manageable.

Re 'tubesets', I was really just alluding to Roberts' penchant for mixing tube manufacturers in a frame, rather than any concept of actual boxed 'sets'.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Roy on 02 March, 2016, 03:57:13 pm
I am looking to buy a summer road bike with close clearances. The question is should I go for aluminium or carbon? What are the advantages/disadvantages of these materials over steel?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 02 March, 2016, 04:25:12 pm
Aluminium is cheaper and sometimes lighter.
Carbon is usually expensive and lighter. Carbon soaks up vibration and bumps better than aluminium.

don't obsess over the material. Test ride some bikes and buy the one that feels right.

Close clearances are pointless, IMO.
I suspect you are associating them with snappy handling that feels fast.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: chickendrumsticks on 09 June, 2016, 11:36:28 am
Hi Mr Yates sir, new member here with a frame related question which I hope you and the other generous contributors can help me with.

I've just purchased a bike.  Its a Revell (Madison supplied, poss. early 80s) but bears no model name.  Its not a Romany tourer or a Ritmo (what the heck is a "Ritmo" anyway???) as far as I can tell from the few Revell posts on this forum.  Its made in 531c throughout with "close clearances" and no mudguard or other eyes. Has Campy ends and is a 22" frame. Full Shimano groupset (except for some nice Cinelli bars and stem).  Shimano BB and headset too. Usual head tube and seat tube badges and "Revell" on the downtube. And no discernible frame number but the initials(?) AE are stamped on the BB underneath.  Could this be the builder.

I wonder if its a "Rapide"?

Most striking is the colour scheme which looks original - a combination of red,blue, yellow with chromed driveside chainstay and rear ends!  The panels are "faded" into each other.  If I knew how to post a pic I would do that to aid identification(DONE!). Any wise and profound thoughts or insights?  I understand some Revell frames were made for Madison by some very esteemed builders back in the day - I believe your good name was mentioned along with that of Mercian!  Here's hoping you may be able to help me.  Thanks in anticipation...new pics of distinctive?? lugwork which are nicely tapered and pierced.

Pics here...https://www.flickr.com/gp/141591263@N05/703BHC

p.s. it turns out that "ritmo" is Spanish for rhythm - so I guess if fitted with right sort of saddle it could be an efficient form of contraception
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 17 November, 2016, 05:33:13 pm
Now then Mr chickendrumsticks,

Apologies for the delay in answering, lors of problems, dont ask!!!
At Steels we made a few frames forMadison/Freewheel in the 80s If it were one of ours it would have a three or four digit number on the bottom bracket shell and fork column. The BB shell is a Haden and the AE is probably a works batch or item identification. The lugs are Prugnat S4s .These components were standard "go to" items for most builders of the era.Sorry I cant be more specific, nothing else on the frame tells me who might have built it.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: fastpedaller on 28 December, 2016, 06:45:37 pm
worth doing if you have Pompino.  They rust like buggery from the inside.  I did mine and the one I sold to Mr Endon, and had a load of Waxoyl left.  I got my Waxoyl on t'internet, with an applicator.  Enough for 5 or 6 frames I'd think so maybe worth sharing with other forrummers

Does the Pompino rust from the inside any more than other similar frames?
On-One say "Our tubing (DN6) comes from a company called Founderland in Taichung, Taiwan. Off the same lines, the same material, the same dies, everything, Reynolds have Founderland put the same tubing into boxes with "Reynolds 520" on it." So surely any bike similarly tubed would rust as badly?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Dave_C on 02 January, 2017, 05:43:09 pm
My turn to ask a question, if I may. I have bought a s/h Cotic Bfe frame and plan to move everything over from my Spec Rockhopper to the Cotic. They are both straight headtube so hopefully no problems there. It needs a new headset, so I may see if I can stretch to a Hope as I'll never really need to fit another in my lifetime.

But the frame brake line guides look like they are for cable and I have hydraulic brakes. Any suggestions? I don't want to butcher the guides but there are slotted guides for tie wraps so this may be a possibility.

Anything else I should be aware of? I have a circa 2010 Rockhopper as a donor which has 9 speed Deore crank which should fit but I have been told that unlike road bikes the crank may need shims or spacers to make the crank fit the bb? Can anyone elaborate please? Other than that I hope the transplant will be a quick and painless affair.

Cheers, Dave C

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Zipperhead on 03 January, 2017, 02:19:06 pm
But the frame brake line guides look like they are for cable and I have hydraulic brakes. Any suggestions? I don't want to butcher the guides but there are slotted guides for tie wraps so this may be a possibility.

I used these when I converted my tandem to hydraulic brakes - Magura brake hose guides (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAGURA-ALUMINIUM-HOSE-GUIDES-FOR-DISC-BRAKES-Bike-frame-hydraulic-hose-adapters-/152347379460?hash=item23789c8704:g:q7QAAOSwtpZYR~tA)

They bolt into the existing cable guide and the brake pipe clips into them.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Dave_C on 03 January, 2017, 11:02:37 pm
Thanks Zipperhead! I recall seeing something like these before. Thanks for the help! :D

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Deano on 03 January, 2017, 11:04:28 pm
You can just cable-tie the hose on and use the existing stops as guides. It won't be that neat, but it'll work.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: MacB on 05 January, 2017, 03:40:20 pm
Stick on ones work as well and can be a bit tidier:-

http://www.tredz.co.uk/.M-Part-Self-adhesive-Cable-Guides_34123.htm?sku=79214&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKEAiA-rfDBRDeyOybg8jd2U4SJAAoE5Xqgub8jw2wctznIOJ4fPaORM9qh6yrcOaeD0e8Z4SHIhoCKa_w_wcB#
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Torslanda on 05 January, 2017, 08:31:13 pm
I have to say my experience of those is less than sub-optimal.

Cleaned paintwork then degreased with solvent, dried and warmed the surface. Stuck for about 20 minutes. I think the manufacturers know this, that's why they come with zip ties, it's a tacit admission that they dont work...

ETA. Six anna half quid for three bits of plastic is scandalous!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: aidan.f on 07 June, 2017, 08:06:05 am
Having  crashed  through  a few potholes on a  600K perm on the  T T* machine this weekend and having broken a pair of Longstaff tandem forks in the past**  I  am thinking  of  taking them out of the frame and giving  them the 'ding and ring' test.

Having only seen this being done once by D.Y.  how hard and where should I ding and how do I preserve the paint? is this test, with my cloth ears worth it?

These are nice flexible forks. as  G.L. said to me 'these are yer front suspension'  you can see the blades flexing over bumps. However due to 'modern roads' the 28C tyre will be replaced with a 35C for LEL.

*some of this parish will know I  mean tandem trike not time trial  :)
** To be fair in that  instance the blade was not properly brazed into the crown - 'twas mostly held in with flux. Compare this with Georges overbuilt frame fillets... :-[


Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 07 June, 2017, 01:10:40 pm
You shouldn't be hitting the fork hard enough to chip paint off (or hitting the fork crown). Basically make a tink or ding sound up high (mostly) on the fork blades and be concerned if there is a noticeable difference between one fork blade and the other. If you are tone-deaf, there must be a smartphone app that recognises pitch. I know there are ones for guitar tuning.

Look really hard at the paint over brazed joints too.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: fd3 on 06 August, 2017, 10:53:39 am
Query about bikes for light riders:
As most bikes are made for "the generic" rider with an addition to avoid liability, you often get posts on forums from powerful heavier riders looking for a frame to replace the series of frames that they have destroyed through being mighty and massive.
On the flip side, if you are a tall 65kg rider, might it make sense to have a bike built for you instead of for the heavier masses? (I know it's not that much lighter than average, but it is for say a 6'+ rider).
Would you get a bike that is not overly stiff out of it?
Would the bike be lighter?
Or is it a theoretical thing that wouldn't happen as it is too dependent on the narrow choice of tubing available?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: ACyclingRooster on 06 August, 2017, 12:11:23 pm
Aluminium is cheaper and sometimes lighter.
Carbon is usually expensive and lighter. Carbon soaks up vibration and bumps better than aluminium.

don't obsess over the material. Test ride some bikes and buy the one that feels right.

Close clearances are pointless, IMO.
I suspect you are associating them with snappy handling that feels fast.


Hi mrcharly. I personally have never ridden a Carbon frame - and my pension would not support such frivolous fashion.
Carbon is known for being a severe ride and very little kindly to the skeleton as a quality steel frame is.
Carbon is also known for sudden and inexplicable failures as it is also known for crushing if one is a little heavy-handed with Spanners and or Allen Keys.
Whether it be 531 single or double butted or even Columbus tubing - there is a comfort level that really does take some beating.

Rider weight and Saddle choice has a great-deal to do with rider comfort and as does bar/stem choice and the appropriate wrappings of bar-tape.

My road bike is a Steve Goff Columbus tubed - Designer Select - three different Columbus tubes chosen by Steve Goff for their particular attributes.
I have just built a Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Alu Carbon (Carbon Forks and Carbon Seat Stays) as a Flat-bar Road Hybrid on Campagnolo Veloce levers.
At almost 72yrs young the blend of 7000 Alloy and very little carbon is about as much as my old bones will tolerate on our crappy roads and with the comfort of the Flat-bars for a leisurely and upright ride.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Jack `o Newbury on 06 November, 2017, 07:18:48 pm
Help needed , shim material for Airnimal telescopic seat tube reducing from 30.2 mm to 30mm . I thought s/s sheet epoxy resin glued in , but can only seem to buy in China . Any thoughts ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: kyuss on 31 March, 2020, 10:22:45 pm
So, on the way in to start my Deliveroo shift today this happened.

(https://i.imgur.com/v4j2Wgd.jpg)

Cycling uphill and came to a stop at some lights and on starting off again got maybe 3 revolutions into it before the cranks wouldn't spin. Thought the chain had unshipped and jammed in the front derailleur but turns out a chainring bolt had snapped at some point and folded the chainring. The result is this....

(https://i.imgur.com/BUjfp6F.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/qN4FaRB.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/W4jIpcW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yM3AULX.jpg)

A big gouge and a slight dent. Although the last photo there makes it look worse than it is, it's still looks fairly significant to my eyes. It's an aluminium Triban RC500. I'll get in touch with Decathlon tomorrow, but since they don't seem to sell framesets I'm not holding out much hope in getting hold of a cheap replacement and it doesn't seem like it would be a warranty issue either.

Am I right in thinking this frame is toast? Couldn't happen at a worse time. Do I chance it or just resign myself to the fact that I'll be budgeting for a new frame?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: zigzag on 31 March, 2020, 10:35:01 pm
i'd ride it, but repair it too.

two wraps of ~5cm wide carbon fibre strip would keep the frame structurally sound.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: icycle on 08 April, 2021, 04:41:54 pm
Hi all, I'm looking for a little bit of advice.

This is my second titanium frame that has cracked. The first was replaced under warranty by the supplier no quibbles (although it took over 7 months to get a new frame). The first time, the frame cracked around the holes for cable on the downtube - definitely a design fault which has since been addressed on the new frame.

The new frame has now cracked on the weld area between the headtube and downtube - just a small crack, which I spotted early on, but still a definite crack.
Does this look like it could be repaired (without an ugly weld), or is a replacement frame needed?(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51102999654_bbf6b6538e_b.jpg)

The supplier has however examined the frame and found a bit of wear on my non-drive rear stay. (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51102924946_c91c56c95a_b.jpg)
It has a small dip into the rear stay when he rubs his finger over it - he's saying it's 'severe wear', I think it's more cosmetic.
Because of this however, this is their stance:

Even if our manufacturer can repair the head tube the seat stay has worn in such a way it now compromises the rear of the frame and we wouldn't want you riding a frame that we know is compromised at the rear.

My proposal is that we offer a replacement frame but as the current one can't be repaired due to the seat stay we would ask you to contribute 50% towards the cost of a new frame. We're happy covering the labour cost of switching all the parts or building up a new bike which is roughly £250 for a bike like this.


Surely the crack is the problem, if the crack can't be repaired (no matter if there is wear on the stay) the frame should be replaced - that's the manufacturer's error. If the crack can be replaced, then surely the wear on the stay is my problem, and if I decide it is just cosmetic, I could just keep using the frame. Obviously if it breaks at the stay, then it isn't the suppliers problem.

Any advice welcomed,
Thanks





Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: JonBuoy on 09 April, 2021, 07:35:35 am
Disclaimer: I am a mechanical engineer whose job includes spending time looking at photo's of damaged components and trying to understand what I am looking at - but they aren't bike frames (or even titanium).

The crack has run into the tube so any repair is more than just grinding out and redoing the weld.  It will be big(ger) and it may be ugly.  I would also be concerned about the longevity of the repair and the rest of the welds on the frame.

It is never easy to interpret photo's but to me the mark on the stay looks far closer to the 'cosmetic' end of the damage spectrum than the 'severe wear' end.  Fingers are remarkably good at feeling this sort of imperfection and, as a result, are also good at making it feel far worse than it is.  If the dealer is proposing to effectively write the frame off as a result of the mark I would expect them to provide some proper dimensional checks showing the extent of the damage and the amount of material removed and give an indication of the effect that this will have on the ability of the component to do its job.

I am not sure about the legalities of this but - assuming it is not possible/desirable to repair the original frame then it seems reasonable that you are asked to make a contribution to the cost of a new frame based on the wear and tear that you have applied to the original frame.  That contribution should be based on something more calibrated than the dealer's fingers.

Hopefully someone will be along in a bit who actually knows what they are talking about with respect to bike frames and warranties!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: icycle on 09 April, 2021, 01:20:20 pm
Hi JonBuoy,

Thanks for your comments.

Confirmed most of my suspicions re the frame not being able to be repaired. Also, without seeing actual measurements of the wear in the rear stay, it is difficult to know if the frame has been significantly compromised in that area.

The frame is under warranty, so I'd have expected the frame to be replaced because of the crack. I feel the two issues should be seen as two separate items: the crack has definitely compromised the frames integrity whereas the wear hasn't yet (and if that wear is halted, the frame could still last a long time).

I'm being asked to contribute 50% of the price of a new frame - but I feel a fairer option would be 50% of the cost price of the frame, otherwise I am potentially footing the full cost of a new frame. (I of course, don't know what the true cost price is to the supplier).

Plenty to think about at this stage.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: alexb on 25 May, 2021, 06:49:44 pm
Who is the frame supplied by?
There are a few manufacturers that have "previous" on using almost any excuse to avoid honoring the warranty!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: zigzag on 31 May, 2021, 03:35:05 pm
how quick/easy is to make indentations on chainstays for tyre clearance on a steel frame? ideally without damaging the paint.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210531/e062071071795cc074b319f320ffc382.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 May, 2021, 03:41:11 pm
Depends on the type of tubing.

A framebuilder friend of mine modified some vice grips to do so, with different sized/ shaped jaws to cradle the chainstay to avoid crimping the wrong side. There is a somewhat greater chance of initiating a crack down the road if you are too hamfisted.

How much movement do you need? A mm or two, no problem. 10mm, don’t be silly. Smooth curves are better for fatigue than hard folds or crimps, so gentle ovalisation is generally better than hammering in a reverse-curve dimple.

Expect paint damage as most paint isn’t flexible enough and chips or flakes under high contact forces.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: zigzag on 31 May, 2021, 05:08:19 pm
thank you, i agree with the best practices to not overdo this. currently there are no indentations at all, so adding ~5mm of clearance each side should be fine i would hope? if a piece of cloth was placed between the frame and dowel(?), would it protect the paint somewhat?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 May, 2021, 05:17:58 pm
Maybe but 5mm each side is a large percentage of the width of a chainstay. Are you using a vice (or similar hand tool) or a hammer and drift? One of those methods is more controllable.

Figure on the paint being trashed (regardless of protection) and perhaps be pleasantly surprised but I know what I would put my money on.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 31 May, 2021, 09:29:10 pm
I indented a drive-side chainstay to clear a fooking great chainring on our racing tandem.  30yrs later it is still going strong.  Mostly a 531 tandem set as I recall.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: geoff on 01 August, 2021, 07:21:54 pm
We have a second hand ally dirt jump frame arriving soon... Plan is to rattle-can it "raw" in clear-coat. Any advice about stripping? (Carry-On Camping jokes also welcome)

Our lad's idea is to Nitromors it...

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Help with frame related questions
Post by: zigzag on 06 August, 2021, 06:28:02 pm
so, took the frame along with my drawings to a local master frame builder who did a stellar job, even keeping the original paint intact (small spots of surface rust are from a long time before). the frame now clears 32mm tyre with at least 5mm space everywhere. chainstays were indented by 5mm, from 19.5 -> 14.5mm. well chuffed!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210806/39ce25d8ae4c92879a8010429f554349.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210806/21398e651f9761a34ca8b034def18825.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Southy on 06 August, 2021, 09:47:48 pm
Hi.

I was sent this way by a helpful suggestion on another thread. I'm trying to identify a bike I've had for the last ten years. Initially I thought it may not be a Condor as marked but looking at the Conduit website it may be one of their early 90's frames.

It has "Allez" stamped on the rear dropout and the frame number 3290 but there are nothing else stamped on the frame (which seems unusual as Condor bikes seem to have this stamped somewhere).

Someone has suggested this may be a frame that Dave or another builder may have made so any help in identifying the year/model number and frame material would be really appreciated as I would like to get it resprayed and roadworthy again. Have some pictures here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MOZo3GdcZH8fELZtwOxHUj1dj8FX3Tsx?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 07 August, 2021, 08:35:48 am
Hi  Southy
All the frames we made for Condor had the Condor number. This was four or five digits, the last two being the year, the first two or three being the sequence fot that year. We used to record every frame we made against our numbering sequence and stamp whatever the (trade) customer wanted on the frrame and forks. As far as I can make out your frame was one of a batch of five delivered to Condor around the end of August 1990. Alas the Condor number was not recorded in the order book and we lost most of the original order forms in a flood just as we were moving out of the Wallsend workshop in 2005. The Allez dropouts were originally made for Holdsworth and I aquired a vast quantity when Holdsworth went down the chute in the late 80s along with all kinds of other bits. I still have some 30 years later !!!
It is made from 531, probably St but not 100% sure. The Condor engraved components were only used on the top custom models such as the "Pro" or the "Baracchi" Later models had  Condor stamped dropouts.

Hope that helps

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Southy on 07 August, 2021, 10:17:23 am
Hi Dave,

Thank you ever so much for the detailed explanation, it certainly does help and is nice to know more about what I have.

Cheers

James
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Graemee on 13 August, 2021, 11:28:32 am
Hello, I hope that this is the appropriate place to put this query. I'm building up a 1983 Vitus 979 and I'm struggling with the downtube shifter bosses. They appear to be standard shimano type but the 'flats' on the end of the boss to orientate the shifter are at 90 degrees to normal e.g they are perpendicular to the downtube rather than parallel. For info, I'm trying to mount DA 7700 shifters and they do fit fine, just not in the correct orientation.

The end result is that the shifters are rotated so that the lever fouls the front wheel in certain gears.

Has anyone ever encountered this before and what are the options for alternative shifters?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 August, 2021, 12:12:41 pm
Huret or Simplex shifter bosses? An unusual thread dimension and some measurements will answer that.

Campag pattern shifter bosses bonded on 90 degrees out? Other early aluminium frames used bolt-through shifter bosses but most (all?) Al Vitus frames used bonded bosses.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Graemee on 13 August, 2021, 12:20:38 pm
Hurer or Simplex shifter bosses? An unusual thread dimension and some measurements will answer that.

Campag pattern shifter bosses bonded on 90 degrees out? Other early aluminium frames used bolt-through shifter bosses but most (all?) Al Vitus frames used bonded bosses.

The standard Shimano bolt threads into the boss without any issue so I assume standard M5 threading. The only images of Huret / Simplex bosses I can find show a cylindrical boss without flanges. I have flanges ( ;D) its just that they are in the wrong orientation.

Your Campag idea might be right...
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 13 August, 2021, 04:01:14 pm
I have a variety of odd lever bosses in various tins and pots in the workshop. I have a vague reccolection of something like you need. I will have a dig and see what l have
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Nick H. on 13 August, 2021, 06:42:23 pm
Hello, I hope that this is the appropriate place to put this query. I'm building up a 1983 Vitus 979 and I'm struggling with the downtube shifter bosses. They appear to be standard shimano type but the 'flats' on the end of the boss to orientate the shifter are at 90 degrees to normal e.g they are perpendicular to the downtube rather than parallel. For info, I'm trying to mount DA 7700 shifters and they do fit fine, just not in the correct orientation.

The end result is that the shifters are rotated so that the lever fouls the front wheel in certain gears.

Has anyone ever encountered this before and what are the options for alternative shifters?
Are they like these? https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1154220-odd-downtube-shifter-bosses-orientation.html
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 14 August, 2021, 05:21:26 pm
Right, I have had a dig around in the workshop and come up with 2 alternatives. Alas I have forgotten how to post photos, can anybody help, Im sure the info is here somewherebut my IT skills seem to be slipping away😯
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 14 August, 2021, 06:51:23 pm
I use this site to host pics for uploading from my device:

https://imgbb.com/upload

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 26 August, 2021, 11:18:07 pm
[https://ibb.co/vQ2pzKW]
Thanks Asterix
Lets try this, two possibilities, the first is for use on an alloy frame with a hole drilled through the down tube.
The length of studding holds them in place and the flats can be oriented how you want.
The second is two steel lever bosses with the radius re formed at 90 deg. If either are any use let me know

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: philip on 26 August, 2021, 11:45:32 pm
[https://ibb.co/vQ2pzKW]
Nearly. You have some extra '[' and ']' around the url, you should remove those: https://ibb.co/vQ2pzKW or better yet, switch to the embedded image, i.e. the BBCode variant of the 'Embed Codes' on the image page (https://i.ibb.co/vQ2pzKW/20210814-171657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vQ2pzKW)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 27 August, 2021, 09:43:13 am
Thanks again Asterix, the older I get the less I know 😁😁
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: robgul on 14 October, 2021, 05:20:00 pm
I have a Giant Defy in the workshop - don't know how old it is but has a cartridge BB (the strange one that extracts from the non-drive side) and 9 speed Sora etc.  Frame is Aluxx 6000 series fork looks like a hybrid aluminium/carbon model.

Now that I've got the amazing amount of crud off it and dropped out the front fork I found corrosion/paint bubbling and wear on the back of the fork crown and about 5cm down each fork leg.

(https://i.ibb.co/svvQkVZ/giant-defy-fork-1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VNxXLR1/giant-defy-fork-2.jpg)

The fork appears pretty sound and there's no obvious damage anywhere else on the frame.

Thoughts please?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 October, 2021, 01:36:40 pm
Hi robgul
Get the paint off and examine what the surface looks like underneath. If there is just surface corrosion  on the alloy then clean and re paint. If the fork is carbon bonded onto the alloy examine the joint between the alloy component and the carbon. If there is the least suspicion of any corrosion at the joint then ditch the forks sharpish. Disaster waiting to happen.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: robgul on 15 October, 2021, 01:57:57 pm
Hi robgul
Get the paint off and examine what the surface looks like underneath. If there is just surface corrosion  on the alloy then clean and re paint. If the fork is carbon bonded onto the alloy examine the joint between the alloy component and the carbon. If there is the least suspicion of any corrosion at the joint then ditch the forks sharpish. Disaster waiting to happen.

Dave Yates

Thanks - I've had a dig around and the corrosion is quite widespread and pretty flakey - looks like new fork time.   I've sent an enquiry to Giant's local dealer with the frame # etc - they, not surprisingly said it's had it and they're getting a price for a replacement - shudders at likely price!

The rest of the bike is old but seems OK - any suggestions on a cheaper option on a replacement fork please?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 October, 2021, 05:49:46 pm
Sorry, totally out of touch with current carbon replacement fork market. I either make steel forks or tell the customer to source their own carbon forks and I build the frame around the supplied item.

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: robgul on 15 October, 2021, 07:53:13 pm
Sorry, totally out of touch with current carbon replacement fork market. I either make steel forks or tell the customer to source their own carbon forks and I build the frame around the supplied item.

Dave Yates

Thanks - a bit more digging around and it looks like Giant is pretty much proprietary as far as forks are concerned - waiting for a cost from them.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ashaman42 on 16 October, 2021, 05:47:20 pm
So I know that putting disc brakes on a fork not designed for it is not a good idea, not that I'd trust a clamp on adapter anyway. But putting a disc fork and brake on a frame that wasn't designed for it is ok right? The bike in question is a Dahon Glide folder like so:

(https://eu.dahon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/dahon-glide-p7p8-2011-large.png)

The original fork was replaced with a schwinn 24" fork so I could fit a front hub motor (the standard fork being only 74mm OLN) with the steerer cut down to fit in the Dahon headset arrangement.

I had plans to find a disc fork later but given the rear rim fell apart on the ride home the other day I'm keen to move rather faster than I was and get away from using rim brakes on the front.

Of course I can't seem to find many rigid 24" disc forks but the Surly Disc Trucker fork (https://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/frames-forks-c6/rigid-forks-c51/surly-disc-trucker-fork-p627) claims to have a 376mm axle to crown length which is pretty similar (it's somewhere in the 370-380 mm ballpark) to what I get when trying to measure the current fork in situ (axle to crown is from the top of the crown/bottom of the headtube rather than the base of the crown right?)

That fork is £130 though - I did find these other forks (https://bankruptbikeparts.co.uk/collections/forks/products/26-mtb-fork-v-disc-mount-1-1-8steerer-28-6mm-260mm-90mm-threaded-steerer-blk) which are £25. So I guess my other question is just how much difference a 25/30mm increase in A2C is likely to make? It's not like it's a wonderfully great handling bike already...
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: sojournermike on 17 October, 2021, 06:29:32 pm
Sorry, totally out of touch with current carbon replacement fork market. I either make steel forks or tell the customer to source their own carbon forks and I build the frame around the supplied item.

Dave Yates

Thanks - a bit more digging around and it looks like Giant is pretty much proprietary as far as forks are concerned - waiting for a cost from them.

Seem unlikely, though not impossible, that it’s not a fairly standard headset - with an Ali steerer probably 1 1/8? So if you can work out the axle to crown then you should be able to find something suitable in full carbon. Are the brakes short or mid drop?

Edited to add: 1 1/8 carbon in short drop are available from Columbus (Futura SL) expensive or Chinese sellers on the bay. You can probably find a mid drop fork too, though you might need to contact someone like ADK in Taiwan…
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: robgul on 19 October, 2021, 03:33:35 pm
Sorry, totally out of touch with current carbon replacement fork market. I either make steel forks or tell the customer to source their own carbon forks and I build the frame around the supplied item.

Dave Yates

Thanks - a bit more digging around and it looks like Giant is pretty much proprietary as far as forks are concerned - waiting for a cost from them.

Seem unlikely, though not impossible, that it’s not a fairly standard headset - with an Ali steerer probably 1 1/8? So if you can work out the axle to crown then you should be able to find something suitable in full carbon. Are the brakes short or mid drop?

Edited to add: 1 1/8 carbon in short drop are available from Columbus (Futura SL) expensive or Chinese sellers on the bay. You can probably find a mid drop fork too, though you might need to contact someone like ADK in Taiwan…

Giant dealer has come back and said the fork that matches the frame number is out of stock and no date for availability.  They say they MAY have something that will work at the shop - need to take the frame/bearings etc to find out - later in the week.   

Cost is around £180 for the fork which probably makes it a "value judgment" for the owner . . not sure how olf the bike is - other than the forks it's mechanically sound but looks very tired.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Johnsabi on 24 May, 2022, 03:36:57 pm
Came across this Gillott badged frame recently. It's not a Gillott but looks like a blend of my two Dave Yates built frames. Is this one of yours? (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52087093657_633e499359.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nmKYfV)531C (https://flic.kr/p/2nmKYfV) by guzzijohn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28237406@N05/), on Flickr (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52088622645_f1e9fccccc.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nmTNLM)A S GILLOTT (https://flic.kr/p/2nmTNLM) by guzzijohn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28237406@N05/), on Flickr (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52088622470_d41b2372ff.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nmTNHL)158 (https://flic.kr/p/2nmTNHL) by guzzijohn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28237406@N05/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 28 May, 2022, 10:00:16 pm
Hi Johnsabi
Not one of ours I'm afraid. The number is wrong, 58 I would guess is the seat tube length. Probably from centre of BB to centre line of TT measured along seat tube. The components appear to be the standard set of bits that were available from The Holdsworthy Company who were the distributors  for Reynolds tubes, Prugnat lugs, etc. There were thousands of frames built in the 80's with these components and hence all look similar.
The  frames built at M Steel Cycles were all numbered in a direct numerical sequence starting at no. 1 which was the first frame I ever made in 1976. When I moved to Lincolnshire in 2005 the numbers are prefixed with DY then the year then the sequential number of the frames built that year eg DY1821.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Johnsabi on 30 May, 2022, 08:10:24 am
Thanks for the info Dave. I have one of your frames, number MS337, would that be late 70's?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 01 June, 2022, 12:04:37 pm
Alas pages are missing from the first record book which starts at 395 in 1983 so I would guess yours is around early 82
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: fatntired on 14 June, 2022, 02:22:03 am
Hi Mr. Yates,

Writing from the other side of the pond, and think a previous post of yours may have finally solved a puzzle for me. I have a very similar bicycle to the one you identified above as a frame you did for Condor in 1990. Mine seems nearly identical except it seems the year may have been stamped upside down and there's a second serial number on there to go with the one that matches your aforementioned format. I'm hoping you may be able to tell me more about this beautiful bicycle. I suspect it has been tastefully repainted, but I can't say for sure as I found it with no identifying info at a swap a few years ago and didn't actually speak to the previous owner.

Thanks in advance for anything you can tell me!

Best,

T

(https://i.imgur.com/cCDZtrX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ILQzwbs.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nOWSbRL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5HfQVme.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/FRPjPDb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1FR6Hcw.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 15 June, 2022, 04:24:33 pm
Hi T
That frame is indeed built by ourselves at M Steel Cycles for Condor. As near as I can nail it down it is one of a batch of 4 59cm Super Cadet touring frames made for Condor as shop stock. The number 4295 on the BBshell followed by a centre punch mark identifies it as a frame finished off by Chris, one of my builders. It was invoiced to Condor July 95. Alas I dont know who bought it from Condor. The Super Cadet was their top "off the peg" touring model.
I hope that helps a bit, i have limited info on  much of the production at M Steels as we lost most of the original order forms in a flood so all I have are the order books that each frame was entered as it came in.
Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: fatntired on 15 June, 2022, 04:50:05 pm
Hi Dave,

Thanks so much for the reply. By my eyes the BB is stamped 4206, but I theorized that the 06 was a 90 punched in upside down for some reason. The other serial stamped on the BB is 700968.

Thanks,

Ted
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 June, 2022, 01:38:59 pm
T
Sorry for the wrong info. Having put the right glasses on and zoomed the pic. I concur that the number is indeed 4206. Which is one of our numbers  which I have found to be one of our Hosteller models. The spec on this model is identical to the Condor Super Cadet hence my jumping to the wrong conclusion. Ordered 6 may 89 by a shop that rejoiced under the name of "Bike Hogan" for a customer called Brimstein. Thats all I have on this.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: fatntired on 16 June, 2022, 01:53:27 pm
Thank you so much! It's amazing to be able to ask questions straight from the source like this. Have a great day!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Johnsabi on 27 June, 2022, 04:54:59 pm
Another one for you Dave. One of your Joe Waugh frames, number 4789 with a centre punch mark after it. Mid 90's I assume. Also, where in Morpeth was the M Steel shop? I don't remember it, but a Koga Miyata I have has a Gosforth and Morpeth telephone number on it.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 27 June, 2022, 08:03:02 pm
The M Steel name  goes back to before 1900. Matt Steel was an ironmongers  on Gosforth High Street who dealt with bikes as well. The business  was bought by Geoff Dobson, I think, in the late 50s and traded as M Steel Cycles. Geoff opened a second shop in Morpeth's Sanderson Arcade which was run by Dennis Fairley. Geoff and myself formed M Steel (Lightweight Cycles) Ltd to build frames in 1981 and were joined by Joe Waugh some 6 weeks after that not long after that Geoff sold the shop to the limited company and moved to Morpeth to run the shop himself whilst remaining a director of the limited company. That Koga would have been sold very late 70s/early 81
The Joe Waugh frame was sold from our Whitley Bay shop to someone called Robinson in April 1990
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Johnsabi on 28 June, 2022, 11:19:24 am
Thanks for the prompt reply. I bought the Koga from a young chap in Tynemouth in 1981. I seem to remember it being advertised as ex-demo or some such. Mr Robinson who ordered the frame must have been a keen Mavic fan. I picked up two of his bikes, one is 75% Mavic and the other is 100% Mavic.
PS This is John from TEDS electrical in North Shields. Hope you are keeping well.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: finch on 02 September, 2022, 09:05:43 pm
I’ve got a 2012 Supersix and it’s got this really annoying trait that when you’re riding on a less than perfect surface, and they’re all like that in Scotland, the front mech cable dings with ridiculous frequency on the admittedly massive downtube. I’ve tried plastic spirals for ring sizing and running the cable as tense as it’ll go    Short of getting a custom cable guide that sticks forward from the bb shell and changes the angle of the dangle I’m pretty much out of ideas as to how to make it stop and I do very much want to make it stop. Stops what is an incredible frame being perfect
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Audax1 on 18 October, 2022, 08:13:00 pm
Hello

Think I’ve understood this thread where a selection of questions can run simultaneously. Interested in thoughts on whether 110mm and 90mm drop outs and forks can be sprung to take 120 and 100mm hubs? Trying to prevent having to re spray the frame by having work done on it. Or, can 120/100mm hubs be respaced easily enough?

Many thanks

Stuart 
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 18 October, 2022, 08:21:59 pm
Is this an older frame (>40 years) or NJS or what? If older, what dropouts does it have? Old frames can be built for axles of smaller diameter than the more recent 9mm front/ 10mm rear.

Coldsetting steel forks/ frame by 10mm almost never damages the paint.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Audax1 on 18 October, 2022, 08:45:46 pm
Thanks this is useful re the cold setting the dropouts and preserving the paint. Apologies I left off some of the key details, the frame is from 1945 so guessing may also be a case of filling the dropouts too

Would adding mudguard eyes require the paint to be stripped or perhaps just on the drop outs, is this possible?

Thanks
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Ian H on 18 October, 2022, 09:11:18 pm
Thanks this is useful re the cold setting the dropouts and preserving the paint. Apologies I left off some of the key details, the frame is from 1945 so guessing may also be a case of filling the dropouts too

Would adding mudguard eyes require the paint to be stripped or perhaps just on the drop outs, is this possible?

Thanks
I've had eyelets silver-brazed with minimal paint damage.  You need a skilled builder to do it well.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Audax1 on 18 October, 2022, 09:22:38 pm
Ok thank you I’ll have a chat with them and see what they say! Much appreciated
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 18 October, 2022, 09:58:44 pm
In the dark ages, Blackburn made “Custom Eyelets” to allow a rear rack to be fitted to Campag dropouts without P-clips. It isn’t that hard to make a set, if you want to avoid potential paint damage.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Audax1 on 19 October, 2022, 01:11:32 pm
Thanks very much this is useful to know, will have a look into this!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Jiveman on 23 October, 2022, 04:55:36 am
Hello Mr Yates...if your out there?

I've been offered a very nice frame that has been resprayed and in the process lost it's identity.

But two things made me wonder if it was a Condor. The serial number 9030 (Condor site says year followed by production) and the unusual Allez dropouts. Both suggested low production.

It has no pantographing. The top eyes are the truncated ones often found on Holdsworth Professionals. (the serial No is way off the Holdsworth ones) It is also close clearance with mudguard eyes.
The lugs look like Cinelli Investment/Italia with short points.
All the threading is British. Seat post size is 26.8
I've seen three very similar Condor GS bikes with a similar number, lugs, dropouts, top eyes.

I can take up the offer of this frame, it's clearly quality. But I can't bare a frame I know nothing about.....

Thank You

Wrote LLoyd at first.....!
(https://www.retrobike.co.uk/attachments/allez2-jpg.673757/)

Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 23 October, 2022, 06:51:01 pm
If you reset dropout width, don’t forget to realign the dropouts to parallel.

If you are set on finding out what the frame is, join the V-CC and ask the question there.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Jiveman on 31 October, 2022, 12:09:54 pm
Just had my frame confirmed as a Condor. So not only is the type of frame I was after....close/mudguard clearance. It's a 531 Condor as well.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 31 October, 2022, 07:49:37 pm
Evening ladies and gents
I've  only just picked the last few posts up as for some reason I've not received  any notifications  that there are posts to answer.
First to finch
There used to be small rubber rings available that were fitted on the cable to stop it banging on the tube. I should imagine a standard o ring of appropriate internal diameter would do the job. You would probably need around half a dozen would do it. Just search on "o rings"

Next Audax1
A frame of that age will re set no prob. As Little wheels and big points out  you must ensure the dropouts are re set to parallel. You will also require the dropout slots to be opened up to 10mm rear and 9mm front. I have done this sort of job several times with no probs over the years. Check the brake clearance before you cut any metal   :-\

Jiveman
Alas that is not a Condor number. All the Condors we built at Steel's   were numbered year last preceded by production number for that year eg 9030 We never, as far as I remember, built any Condor frame with Allez dropouts they had their own Condor stamped ones. There is a possibility  that it is one of ours from M Steel Cycles as the number corresponds with  a Gold Medal built in 1987. If you can put some pictures up I can give you a better idea, specifically seat cluster, under the bb shell showing the number and it should have the number on the steering column, also the size of the frame , centre of bb to top edge of seat lug
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 31 October, 2022, 08:05:58 pm
Jiveman
The seat pin size is wrong for a 531c tubeset it should be 27.2.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Jiveman on 05 November, 2022, 12:32:27 pm
Thanks for the reply.

I got back to it, and under close inspection there's nothing other than a Condor sounding frame number to go by.
9030 is on the F&F, so not a massed produced frame I'd have thought?
It is 27.2 though and all English threading, and certainly has the characteristics of a very early 90's frame.
So with the Allez drop outs front and rear, it looks like a Holdsworth, but then the number doesn't.
So unless I can pin it down, I'm going to label it up as a Birds of Colindale as I had two of his off the peg frames as a youngster, and I know Terry didn't build frames.

Thanks
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 05 November, 2022, 04:23:22 pm
I actually put some more info in aprevious general reply see below

Jiveman
Alas that is not a Condor number. All the Condors we built at Steel's   were numbered year last preceded by production number for that year eg 9030 We never, as far as I remember, built any Condor frame with Allez dropouts they had their own Condor stamped ones. There is a possibility  that it is one of ours from M Steel Cycles as the number corresponds with  a Gold Medal built in 1987. If you can put some pictures up I can give you a better idea, specifically seat cluster, under the bb shell showing the number and it should have the number on the steering column, also the size of the frame , centre of bb to top edge of seat lug

Cheers
Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: rcbprk on 15 November, 2022, 10:03:31 pm
Evening Dave,

I picked up a Joe Waugh Prima frame at the weekend from a local community bike repair charity. It’s build in 531c with Campagnolo dropouts on frame and fork. It looks to be in pretty good shape. The frame itself looks similar to one that Hilary Stone is selling, details-wise albeit a different finish and without the chromed forks; he has it listed as a 1994. The BB shell on mine has the number is 7727. I wondered if you might have an idea of what date this one hails from?

Also, it’s come to me with a Campagnolo Athena Graphite crankset - would that be typical of the kit these would have left the shop with at the time? Presumably there was a mix of Campagnolo, Shimano and maybe Suntour knocking around. I wonder what the trends of the day were like at Steels in the early 90s.

Many thanks
Roy
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 16 November, 2022, 10:24:48 am
Hi Roy
That frame was ordered 26/10/94 as a stock frame for Steel's Gosforth shop. It was invoiced 9/5/95, I assume at the point it was sold as a build up from the shop. No idea what kit was fitted as each one was built to customer spec.

Cheers

Dave Yates
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: rcbprk on 16 November, 2022, 10:36:47 am
Thanks Dave, much appreciated. Its made it as far as the west end of Newcastle so I'm happy to keep in in the North East.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: D.A.L.E. on 11 May, 2023, 07:37:19 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/P6yvbVp/332740157-6606487879428857-577501285361712754-n.jpg)

Trying very hard to not buy this... Shed any light on this Dave?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Bicycle Repair Man on 13 May, 2023, 12:42:57 pm
Sorry, without a frame number and size it is just another frame. If you can get said details I can help with  date and other limited details. I might have the original order form but unlikely as most of them were lost in a flood when we moved from Wallsend
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: D.A.L.E. on 13 May, 2023, 01:20:43 pm
Fair. I was just looking for any clue as to what it was/when it was from. I can make out Machine on the top tube and that's about it. Will update if I buy it. Cheers.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: fwevans on 26 May, 2023, 11:10:02 am
is it possible to change the steerer tube on some forks from 1 inch to 1 1/8 inch? or is that not good for the forks' longevity? Saw some 853 touring forks that I was thinking of maybe using on a bike frame. thanks
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 May, 2023, 11:33:01 am
Impossible.  You'd need a new crown with a 1 1/8" steerer socket, so you'd be rebuilding the entire fork.
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: fwevans on 26 May, 2023, 04:07:16 pm
Ok thank you for telling. Learnt something new, though now I look at it, it is simple
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 May, 2023, 12:18:15 pm
There are reducing rings that allow you to use a 1" fork in a 1 1/8" head tube but there's little point; a 1 1/8" fork is stiffer where it matters.  Most 1 1/8" forks are threadless and most 1" forks are threaded, just to throw in an extra complication.

Quill stems look nice, and most of my bikes have them, but a threadless setup is technically much better and you can really feel the extra stiffness.  A quill stem is only attached at its very bottom and moves a lot during riding.  You can tell this from the way a freshly fitted quill stem pumps grease out of the headset top nut!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: onerousdeporte on 01 June, 2023, 12:28:17 pm
Any idea of the frame manufacturer that puts the serial number on the seat post part of the frame and the number start with NG.

The frame has a Raleigh head badge.

EDIT: It is a nottingham built 1974 raleigh. From here https://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_raleigh_serials.html
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: onerousdeporte on 24 June, 2023, 02:53:50 pm
Does anyone know about the Joe Waugh M Steel bicycle frame numbering?

Bought this (https://lfgss.microcosm.app/api/v1/files/7657f82043b3df471f8e6c6e5c0092605b4a0f64.jpeg) and people have mentioned that it looks very like an M steel build bike.

The frame number starts with mf, so is it an M steel bike, is there anyway I can tell?
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Korri on 27 September, 2023, 09:28:40 pm
Hola, me llamo David, soy de España y tengo un cuadro JOE WAUGH y busco información,
pero nunca he usado un foro y no sé cómo poner fotos El número de cuadro es MS379
Gracias!
Title: Re: Help with frame related questions
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on 21 January, 2024, 04:24:35 pm
Hj Dave , are you still there?  Am I right in thinking you built Pearson frames?  If so I have one, 22" 531 ST , 120 spacing at the rear, cantilevers, no upper rack mounts, no fork mounts, I'm thinking late 70's.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53478232170_0686119632_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ptFVgG)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2ptFVgG) by mark tilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/yo_stumpy/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53477963673_cb4cb78b41_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ptExsr)  (https://flic.kr/p/2ptExsr) by mark tilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/yo_stumpy/), on Flickr

I think that says 1713
The cantilever bosses appear to be cubes rather than post where they attached. One of yours?