Yet Another Cycling Forum
Random Musings => Miscellany => Kidstuff => Topic started by: Charlotte on 08 November, 2016, 03:13:35 pm
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The Babbit got an Islabikes Rothan balance bike for her second birthday. It's red because red bikes go faster:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/vicechair/DSC_8678_zpsnjdunuob.jpg)
Whilst she gets to grips with it, I'm wondering whether it's a daft idea to also get her a generic three wheeler (two at the front, one at the back) micro scooter as well.
Can kids learn the two things separately, or am I going to confuse her?
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Two-year-olds learn zillions of things simultaneously: speech, sphincter control, dressing, shape matching etc and eventually make sense of the world.
I don't think scooting will confuse the Babbit.
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Their brains are enormous and mostly empty sponges. I'm pretty sure that no confusion will ensue.
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That's my gut feeling on the matter too. I'd guess that the difference between scooting and straddling should help to separate out tricycle control from bicycle control. Furthermore, smalls don't seem to have too much trouble going between balance bike and pedalled tricycle.
That said, I've always thought those three-wheeled scooters looked a bit rubbish, further evidenced by their usual position of being slung over a buggy or dragged along by parents, rather than actually ridden. I've no idea what they're actually like to ride, thobut.
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Both my daughters found two wheeled scooters easier. The 3 wheeled ones seemed to tip them over.
I taught the oldest with stabilisers and the youngest with a balance bike.
Balance bike was far better. Reasons obvious as you'll see when you watch the whole process. No spoilers from me. Enjoy the love.
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Both my daughters found two wheeled scooters easier. The 3 wheeled ones seemed to tip them over.
That's what I was wondering. It doesn't look like a very controllable geometry, surely prone to jackknifing were it not usually molished from injection-moulded plastic and incapable of achieving much in the way of speed.
I taught the oldest with stabilisers and the youngest with a balance bike.
Balance bike was far better. Reasons obvious as you'll see when you watch the whole process. No spoilers from me. Enjoy the love.
The evilness of stabilisers should be readily apparent to any experienced adult bicyclist who's tried to ride an upwrongular hedge-seeking trike for the first time. There's no way that particular learning curve can be improved by creating a vehicle that randomly switches between that and bicycle handling unless you force matters by shifting your centre of mass outboard to make it consistently handle like a bike and sidecar (as experienced stabiliser-riding children tend to do). This can be further illustrated by watching a child brought up on balance bikes attempt to ride their friend's bike with stabilisers, set off quite well and fall spectacularly at the first proper corner.
But I'm sure Charlotte knows this already.
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I'm not so sure about the evilness of stabilisers. Bear in mind that little kids come to them without our bicycular preconceptions but they do see that a bike without them falls over. It has to lean against a wall! So I think they do function as a confidence booster. That said, I've little doubt that a balance bike (or just a bike without pedals) does the job better.
I also agree that a child should have no trouble coping with a scooter and a balance bike at the same time.
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I'm not so sure about the evilness of stabilisers. Bear in mind that little kids come to them without our bicycular preconceptions but they do see that a bike without them falls over. It has to lean against a wall! So I think they do function as a confidence booster.
That's exactly why I refused to even try to ride bike without stabilisers until I was about 7.
The confidence boost came from seeing bikes without riders staying upright while in motion, and the realisation that the moving bike does something magic, rather than relying on superhuman balance skills.
So I suppose that one depends on the child. A balance bike neatly side-steps the issue, as they learn to ride something that handles like a bike before getting round to worrying about this stuff.
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L had both from about that age. He got the hang of the balance bike much faster, couldn't really scoot at all, and for ages the scooter just languished in the garage. Then all of a sudden a couple of months ago we got it out again and he was magically much more competent.
It's now really come into its own for journeys where we're going to be doing a bit of walking at either end of a bus/tube journey. We used the balance bike for that a little bit when he was smaller, but he's onto a pedal bike now and that is definitely heavier than I want to risk carrying around if he decides he wants to walk for a bit. Plus I can pull him along on the scooter which doesn't work with a bike.
In fact he's better at the scooter now than the pedal bike... but I'm sure it'll balance out in due course.
Other kids I've known have gotten the hang of the scooter at a much earlier age -- if I regularly sees other older kids (e.g. at nursery or friends of yours) using one she may be more enthusiastic.
WARNING: scooters are much more likely to tip over frontways. One of the reasons he didn't scoot for a bit may well have been that he was put off when I was helping him go up a steep underpass by pushing him -- scooter wheels hit a bump and he went straight over the handlebars and cut his chin open*. Nasty enough to need gluing together at the hospital. The fact that I was pushing definitely made this worse but they are definitely prone to this as a failure mode. I suspect that littler kids may also find it harder to save themselves. These days if L tips the thing he can get his hands up fast enough that there's no harm done, but when he was 2 I think his co-ordination was a bit slower.
* an injury that wearing a helmet would not have protected against even had he been wearing one.
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I also agree that a child should have no trouble coping with a scooter and a balance bike at the same time.
I disagree. Many adults would fall off it they tried that. I recommend riding them alternately.
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I also agree that a child should have no trouble coping with a scooter and a balance bike at the same time.
I disagree. Many adults would fall off it they tried that. I recommend riding them alternately.
Jumping from one to the other in motion like a cowboy changing horses while holding up a stagecoach. Did John Wayne have a balance bike?
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Can kids learn the two things separately, or am I going to confuse her?
Remember that school where the children were playing back the last-but-one musical phrase the teacher had just played them?
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Just make sure the scooter's red too!
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I also agree that a child should have no trouble coping with a scooter and a balance bike at the same time.
I disagree. Many adults would fall off it they tried that. I recommend riding them alternately.
Jumping from one to the other in motion like a cowboy changing horses while holding up a stagecoach. Did John Wayne have a balance bike?
No, but he did have a stunt double.
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It'll be fine.
But I do agree the 2-wheeled scooters are better, you can corner properly etc. You could go for a non-folding one with the not-so-miniature wheels (which may be entirely missing the point).
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The Little Duck has both, though he was more into the balance bike. His scooter is a three wheeled job, and he has no interest in trying a two wheeler.
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Bit late to this but MissS had a balance bike and scooter from before 2 with no problems. I would definitely invest in one of the proper 3 wheeled Mini Micro scooters; they are set up to allow proper steering like a motorbike (you lean in the direction you want to go). The cheaper ones which are just two wheels at the front with no diff/articulation are tricky.
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Our Duck is now asking for a skateboard! :o :o :o
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Our Duck is now asking for a skateboard! :o :o :o
Like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lzlV_hKXgI
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Both is fine, they will figure the one they find easiest and do that, but will play with both.
#1 child took to the three wheeler and this allowed us to massively increase our range sans pram. The sub-two ones are getting the knack of the scooter already so I would recommend.
#1 used stabilisers for about a month as he went from balance bike to needing to learn to pedal, brake and start all at once. Having never pedalled before he needed the easier learning device.
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Pedalling can be very hard work and rather inefficient for small kids.
I have memories of younger siblings making faster progress on their tricycles just using foot to floor propulsion than actually pedalling.
Gear ratios on small kids' bikes are very low...
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Gear ratios on small kids' bikes are very low...
I did the maths on SmallestCub's Cnoc[1] 14 at one point and concluded that it was about the same gain ratio as you'd find on an adult single speed. (Obviously gear inches are useless in this context, you've got to consider the entire system.) Which doesn't mean the child in question isn't still having to cover about twice the distance relative to their size compared to an adult.
Direct-drive tricycles on the other hand suffer from the penny farthing problem. Reasonable proportions, sensible gain ratio: Pick any one.
[1] Islabikes may not be typical of the species of course. Many cheap children's bikes suffer from excessively long cranks.
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A few years ago I saw some kids bikes from one of the big manufacturers – I think it was Trek – in a shop, and noticed they had adjustable crank length; the cranks were drilled with a couple of holes at different distances. Quite a neat way to make one bike cope with varying proportions in children of the same overall height and to let the bike grow with the child.
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Some stuff about bikes for children here (with things that I don't understand about gear ratios).
http://deceasedcanine.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/how-to-choose-kids-bikeor-why-its-not.html
http://deceasedcanine.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/operation-souped-up-islabike-success.html
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Scooter and balance bike, what ever happened to a too big a bike, hill, jumping on, scraped knees and falling over?
Young kids today, bubble warp and helicopters is all I say :)
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Scooter and balance bike, what ever happened to a too big a bike, hill, jumping on, scraped knees and falling over?
Young kids today, bubble warp and helicopters is all I say :)
That's a wonderful typo! Being in the bubble and getting warped... ;D
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Some stuff about bikes for children here (with things that I don't understand about gear ratios).
http://deceasedcanine.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/how-to-choose-kids-bikeor-why-its-not.html
Nice spreadsheet, but it falls short of calculating the actual gain ratios. Would be interesting to plug those numbers into Sheldon's calculator...
I'm not sure I agree with the original premise though. A child on a Beinn necessarily has much shorter cranks than an adult on a Dahon or a Helios, so for a given gain ratio, I'd expect them to pedal at a higher cadence to achieve the same speed. A child is smaller than an adult (ie. their small legs can't make the pedals move in as big a circle), so to achieve the same speed they're either going to have to pedal at a higher cadence, or push a higher gear, and as anyone who's ever ridden a bike knows, high gears don't give you speed for free.
Expecting children to push teethgrinder gears in order to keep up with adults on bikes is about as reasonable as expecting them to run in order to keep up with adults walking.
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Look at the weights. The lightest bike in that table is the Islabike Cnocc 14 small, at 5.6kg. Really light! But that's for a 3 y.o. who weighs on average 15kg according to this table. http://www.onaverage.co.uk/body-averages/average-child-weight Islabike also have the heaviest, the Luath 24 at 9.05kg, for an 8 y.o. with an average weight of 26kg. So in both cases the bike is about a third of the rider's body weight. And these are the top end of kids bikes; imagine a 75kg adult considering a 25kg bike to be lightweight. It's obvious kids are going to have to put in a lot more effort up even modest gradients (and probably have more trouble controlling the bikes on downhills).
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Yes, that's the other thing. To a child, all bikes are loaded tourers.
I suppose aerodynamics can mostly be handwaved, on account of low speed, relatively small frontal area, and making good use of the boundary later.
I wonder if anyone's fitted an child's bike with a power meter and obtained some real-world figures? If they have, they're probably on YACF...
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Going back to the spreadsheet for a mo, not only does it not mention gain ratios it doesn't calculate straightforward gear inches (or development, whichever you prefer). With an assortment of wheel sizes, my brain asks for a pencil and paper to make sense of the combinations.