Author Topic: X Factor v Pavarotti  (Read 8404 times)

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
X Factor v Pavarotti
« on: 07 January, 2010, 07:43:24 pm »
Here's a paradox that struck me as I trudged into work this morning.  I think we're all agreed that X Factor is trashy stuff.  And one of the justifications most voiced for this is that it's all derivative, there's no creative artistry involved, they're all being told to perform in a certain narrow way.   Sounds very reasonable so far.  But isn't classical music the same ?  Few classical musicians/singers write their own material, and don't they all get instructed in a very definite way on how to perform too ?  So there it is, opposite ends of the classy to trashy spectrum unified by the same criticism.  Or have I missed something ?
Aero but not dynamic

LEE

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #1 on: 08 January, 2010, 09:18:43 am »
I don't think you've missed anything.

Classical music is basically set in stone, there are a million musicians and opera singers and a finite number of "classics".  Therefore the only differentiators are:

1) Good looks - (when was the last time you saw a rough looking women on a cello?  My god, they all look like a Robert Palmer backing band now). I can assure you, they were all like Susan Boyle 30 years ago

Classical albums by Babes always sell better than usual.

There are better singers than Catherine Jenkins and better Violinists than Vanessa Mae

2) Terrible looks (the dancing dog syndrome)- It may occasionally help if someone very ugly comes onto the scene.  The fact that they are even above average stuns the world into mass record sales. ("It's not that the dog is a good dancer, merley that the dog can dance at all")

Being blind also fits into this category (So as not to offend any blind people, please do not read this out aloud)

3) Extreme talent - Pavarotti is obviously exceptional, he needs to be exceptional, looking like he does (not quite terrible enough to fit into category 2 and definitely not into category 1)

So yes, it does seem like an endless loop of people re-hashing the same old material, thinking that, in some way, they can do it better than the last person.  They are just doing cover versions, doing the same thing that pop artists get slated for.

Mind you, it's getting harder and harder to get tickets for Beethoven gigs.






Wowbagger

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Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #2 on: 08 January, 2010, 09:50:28 am »
The first thing that you have missed is that Classical music is just that: it's called "classical" because it's how it ought to be done. It has stood the test of time. You can hardly place the throwaway world of popular music in the same category.

Classical music is not set in stone. There are many ways of interpreting the dots on a page of manuscript and there are as many ways of performing a work as their are conductors. On another thread a month or two ago, PColbeck mentioned that he had numerous different versions of a particular work on CD. Why? Because each one's different, and each one has its own validity. There's a whole world of artistic interpretation in the performance of good music.

That's not to say that commercialism can't exploit classical music: of course it can. It has always been possible to exploit pretty people by putting them in front of an instrument even if they haven't got talent - remember Richard Clayderman? He could play a little but scarcely merited third-rate and has, quite justifiably, been forgotten. Truly talented musicians carry on well past the stage of being attractive to look at: Alfred Brendel carried on into his 70s, André Previn is still working at 80, the list goes on.

I'd say that if you can't tell the difference, keep listening until you can.
Quote from: Dez
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Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #3 on: 08 January, 2010, 09:51:11 am »
Not sure I agree on this one. Classical music is about interpretation.  If you listen to one singer or conductors interpretation of a piece it will be very different from an others. Some orchestras even have a house sound, the Berlin Philharmonic all through the 60,70 and 80s being famous for smooth playing and the sheen that their music had.
Expecting a performer to write their own music is a relatively recent phenomena, only really took off in the 60s. Even after that some of the greatest artists have been interpreters rather than writer/performers. Aretha Franklin, Elvis, Dione Warwick amongst a host of others spring to mind.

WoW beat me to it.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

LEE

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #4 on: 08 January, 2010, 10:43:46 am »
Some orchestras even have a house sound

Now I'd like to hear that

(But then again I grew up in Manchester in the 1980s)

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #5 on: 08 January, 2010, 11:56:00 am »
...... it's called "classical" because it's how it ought to be done.

It's how it was traditionally done rather than ought to be done. If all music was "classical" the world would be a very dull and irritating place. We could do without twat factor though.....
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #6 on: 08 January, 2010, 12:06:46 pm »
You can stick some Bach onto a disc and send it to the very depths of space ala Voyager in the hope
that some other intelligent form of life will find it, and then realise there is other intelligent life
out there, besides their own.

Try doing that with a cover version of 'I Will Always Love You.'

Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #7 on: 08 January, 2010, 12:35:31 pm »
You can stick some Bach onto a disc and send it to the very depths of space ala Voyager in the hope
that some other intelligent form of life will find it, and then realise there is other intelligent life
out there, besides their own.

I thought they didn't send Bach in the end coz Carl Sagan said it would be showing off ;D
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #8 on: 08 January, 2010, 12:40:26 pm »
IIRC they sent three recordings. And yes, it is indeed showing off.  ;D
Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
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LEE

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #9 on: 08 January, 2010, 02:20:10 pm »
IIRC they sent three recordings. And yes, it is indeed showing off.  ;D

Let's just hope ET doesn't like dancing or a good sing-a-long then.

Wowbagger

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Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #10 on: 08 January, 2010, 02:27:29 pm »
IIRC they sent three recordings. And yes, it is indeed showing off.  ;D

Let's just hope ET doesn't like dancing or a good sing-a-long then.

Bach wrote lots of great dances (gavottes, gigues, sarabandes, minuets) and some superb songs (St. Matthew Passion, all his chorales). In fact, probably more than any other composer.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #11 on: 08 January, 2010, 02:32:40 pm »
IIRC they sent three recordings. And yes, it is indeed showing off.  ;D

Let's just hope ET doesn't like dancing or a good sing-a-long then.

I'm hoping they're a lot more advanced than that.
Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #12 on: 08 January, 2010, 02:46:38 pm »
IIRC they sent three recordings. And yes, it is indeed showing off.  ;D

Let's just hope ET doesn't like dancing or a good sing-a-long then.

Bach wrote lots of great dances (gavottes, gigues, sarabandes, minuets) and some superb songs (St. Matthew Passion, all his chorales). In fact, probably more than any other composer.

Mozart, in his short life, actually wrote even more than J.S. Bach.   :o
Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #13 on: 08 January, 2010, 03:29:39 pm »
IIRC they sent three recordings. And yes, it is indeed showing off.  ;D

(Googles)

You are this: correct.  It seems to be something that Stephen Fry attributed to Sagan on "QI".
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #14 on: 08 January, 2010, 03:41:48 pm »
I trust Stephen, implicitly.  :thumbsup:
Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #15 on: 08 January, 2010, 03:48:58 pm »
What they are mainly showing off is their complete numptiness.

Alien, whoever they are, will not be Nick Hornby.  They will not eulogise over record covers.  They are unlikely to get as far as the diagrams demonstrating how to build a gramophone.  If the record had been secured on a spindle, with even the crudest of needles attached to a simple horn, there is a chance that Mr E.T. will be delighted by aural stimulation.

As it is, it's a frisbee.
Getting there...

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #16 on: 08 January, 2010, 03:52:59 pm »
Have you seen the new Post Office 'Album Cover' stamps?  :thumbsup:

Dad, what's that black disc thing that's partially hidden?

Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #17 on: 08 January, 2010, 03:54:20 pm »
As it is, it's a frisbee.
even that assumes there will be some air to create the pressure differential to keep it in the air.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #18 on: 08 January, 2010, 03:58:35 pm »
Why 'Let It Bleed' and not 'Sticky Fingers'?

And what happened to 'Never Mind The Bollocks'?

Personally, I feel Trust's debut album, L'Elite would be best, rendered down to stamp-size.  But not quite so British.

Now, about Roxy Music's oeuvre...
Getting there...

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #19 on: 08 January, 2010, 04:01:16 pm »
As it is, it's a frisbee.
even that assumes there will be some air to create the pressure differential to keep it in the air.

They could always use it as a plate. 
Getting there...

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #20 on: 08 January, 2010, 04:01:20 pm »


And what happened to 'Never Mind The Bollocks'?



Yes, you'd like to see "Bollocks" just millimetres from the Queen's face, wouldn't you?  ;D


Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #21 on: 08 January, 2010, 04:17:03 pm »
The Duke of Edinburgh's Challenge
Getting there...

Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #22 on: 08 January, 2010, 04:21:05 pm »
 ;D

I'm now seeing the words "Earl" "Grey" and "T-bag".
Quote from: Marbeaux
Have given this a great deal of thought and decided not to contribute to any further Threads for the time being.
POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
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Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #23 on: 08 January, 2010, 10:06:20 pm »
IIRC they sent three recordings. And yes, it is indeed showing off.  ;D

Let's just hope ET doesn't like dancing or a good sing-a-long then.

Bach wrote lots of great dances (gavottes, gigues, sarabandes, minuets) and some superb songs (St. Matthew Passion, all his chorales). In fact, probably more than any other composer.

Mozart, in his short life, actually wrote even more than J.S. Bach.   :o

Highly unlikely, I fear. Many moons ago, I remember listening to some programme or other on Bach's output in which the so-called expert claimed that if a scribe were employed 5 days a week for 8 hours a day to copy Bach's output longhand, it would take him 50 years. Remember that, quite apart from his well-known output, he was churning out a new piece of church music every week for his employment in Leipzig. He also lived almost twice as long as Mozart.

Mozart seemed to produce stuff in bursts: what did his last 6 weeks of life yield?
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Eccentrica Gallumbits

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Re: X Factor v Pavarotti
« Reply #24 on: 08 January, 2010, 10:16:31 pm »


Try doing that with a cover version of 'I Will Always Love You.'


Well, exactly. The original's much better.

There seems to be a lot of implied snobbery in this thread. Classical music isn't intrinsically better than pop music, it's just that most of it is very old, so only the good stuff has survived until now. I bet there was a lot of dross written at the same time by other composers which has fallen by the wayside. Pick any quality in classical music - melody, rhythm, emotion, ability to move or stir or cheer the listener, and you'll be able to find a pop song at least as good. Yes, some pop is drivel. But lots of it is very very good and it will survive because it says something to people about their lives that is meaningful to them.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.