Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: andyoxon on 07 May, 2020, 01:56:11 pm
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So there's the 2 min silence at 11am tomorrow (8th). We had a note through the door about the 2 min silence, but also tea outside your abode at 4pm, and a nationwide sing (we'll meet again) on your doorstep at 9pm... Not sure* about the sing ;), but may do socially distant afternoon tea with neighbours...
Doing anything?
* = No
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Yup, I've filmed our Town Crier doing a Cry, it will be released in the morning. We've got a socially distant wreath laying at 11:00 then a socially distant sing along at the care homes in town.
Will probably have some tea at some point ;D
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Had no idea about any of this till a couple from up our street posted a note through our door. Will do the silence and tea but not the sing along as people who've just ventured outside will be fleeing back in
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I'm in two minds.
The Parish Council had arranged a memorial service for Sunday, and two local PCs had arranged things for Friday and Saturday. These have now been cancelled. Our local vicar has recorded a short piece that will be transmitted via the interweb on Sunday.
I am concerned about attempt to hijack VE Day by the right wing - particularly in the government and the media. I will not be involved in street parties, bunting displays or sing alongs.
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This image is prevalent on the Web - I just did a Google search for it. VE Day - celebrate the end of WW2. Seriously.
Victory in Europe day? What is that?
This is on many council websites.
http://www.howden-tc.gov.uk/_UserFiles/Images/Stay%20at%20Home%20Street%20Party.jpg
Happy to paste the image correctly if given guidance.
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Don't plan on it really. Obviously I am glad that Nazis got stomped but I really don't have it in me to celebrate a given diary date because war is awful. I don't really empathise with the wider sentiment of this as a party.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32529679
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I'm in two minds.
The Parish Council had arranged a memorial service for Sunday, and two local PCs had arranged things for Friday and Saturday. These have now been cancelled. Our local vicar has recorded a short piece that will be transmitted via the interweb on Sunday.
I am concerned about attempt to hijack VE Day by the right wing - particularly in the government and the media. I will not be involved in street parties, bunting displays or sing alongs.
One of the Daily Heil affiliated sites was running a page that said we were celebrating "Victory _Over_Europe...... https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1257659624871821317?s=20 I checked this myself, it was there. Gone now.
I saw someone this morning saying that the British Legion site had the same thing, but by the time I went to check it had been "corrected".
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I find the whole notion utterly bizarre.
What exactly are we celebrating? Why should we celebrate this when the country we collectively vanquished almost outside of living memory is now a close ally? Why do we continue to define our country through deceitful mythology that emboldens a damaging sense of exceptionalism?
No. Fuck it. Not doing it. I'll quietly remember the dead of all sides. I'll leave the vacuous flag waving to the Gammonati.
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It's a government sponsored distraction.
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I find the whole notion utterly bizarre.
What exactly are we celebrating? Why should we celebrate this when the country we collectively vanquished almost outside of living memory is now a close ally? Why do we continue to define our country through deceitful mythology that emboldens a damaging sense of exceptionalism?
No. Fuck it. Not doing it. I'll quietly remember the dead of all sides. I'll leave the vacuous flag waving to the Gammonati.
+10
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https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/symbols/europe-day_en (https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/symbols/europe-day_en) 9th May is Europe Day. "Europe Day held on 9 May every year celebrates peace and unity in Europe." A more worthy thing to celebrate.
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Shall we celebrate that the Nazis are coming back stronger than before?
Have seen a few 'adverts' on facebook as victory over Europe which is a strange tone.
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I find the whole notion utterly bizarre.
What exactly are we celebrating? Why should we celebrate this when the country we collectively vanquished almost outside of living memory is now a close ally? Why do we continue to define our country through deceitful mythology that emboldens a damaging sense of exceptionalism?
No. Fuck it. Not doing it. I'll quietly remember the dead of all sides. I'll leave the vacuous flag waving to the Gammonati.
I agree with you.
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I find all these celebrations of killing distasteful. If it was like the Holocaust day, a remembering of the terrible events and thanksgiving for peace then yes, but triumphalism no.
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It's a complete non event up here as far as I'm aware.
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I find all these celebrations of killing distasteful. If it was like the Holocaust day, a remembering of the terrible events and thanksgiving for peace then yes, but triumphalism no.
Yeah, it's why we are wreath laying. I've not seen a lot of bunting about...
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Jaded, we will see a LOT of bunting on the BBC News coverage tomorrow. Acres of it.
I predict they will find a village somewhere which is throwing a VE Day street party, and will be broadcasting live from 8am in the morning.
It is easy then to imply that the rest of the country is acting similarly.
Where I live in SE London no indications of bunting or flags. I am about to go out for a walk so will report back if any are spotted.
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A house (about 30 yards opposite) on my road has a dirty great big union flag hanging out
of their two front bedroom windows. The family are presumably getting ready.
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Jaded, we will see a LOT of bunting on the BBC News coverage tomorrow. Acres of it.
I predict they will find a village somewhere which is throwing a VE Day street party, and will be broadcasting live from 8am in the morning.
It is easy then to imply that the rest of the country is acting similarly.
Where I live in SE London no indications of bunting or flags. I am about to go out for a walk so will report back if any are spotted.
There's your problem, watching BBC News CCHQ Propaganda
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I only found out about the singing nonsense last night and about the rest of it from reading this thread. I shall probably do the minute of silence by default, as the chances are I'll be asleep. The rest of it can get tae fuck.
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David Amess has had an online concert organised under his name. I know a few people who are singing in it. Our choir secretary asked if any other choir members wanted to contribute a video of some singing, which I assumed had to be solo, and I volunteered to sing "I am the very model of a prejudiced Etonian". As yet, I am still waiting for a response...
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Last year on my way through I visited the place in Reims where the surrender was signd (on the 7th May 1945). Fittingly it's now an international school.
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A fair few houses round here have got Union Jack bunting and what not going up.
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Just asked my mother if she remembered VE day, aged 9. She said 'not really, but did recollect her father putting a couple of union jacks on canes in the front garden'.
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A small group of us (Kim, Carnardly and me - we met AndrewC on about he third day, I think) set off from Cherbourg to Dieppe by bicycle some years ago. Imagine my surprise when we found ourselves cycling by the famed Normandy beaches on VE Day. Up to that point, I had no idea what time of year VE Day was, nor that we would meet a whole load of strange people dressed in period uniforms and driving period vehicles about. I thought it rather odd that no-one seemed to be dressed in the uniform of those who came second.
Many of the roads in the vicinity are named after people involved in the battle, but I have to say that I was less than convinced by the authenticity of Private C. O. Jones Boulevarde.
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I spent 22 years in the services. We remember our dead (and those of all nations in war) on Remembrance Day. That's enough. There is no justification that I can see to celebrate victory over Germany 75 years ago. Yes, it was a Good Thing that it happened, and it would have been incredibly important to people all over Europe at the time, and we must ensure we don't forget the horrors of those times, but 'celebrations' in 2020? Why, FFS? I will not be participating.
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I respect the dead but I don’t believe in the glorification of war. I had 6 years experience of a nasty little bush war. Tomorrow is being used by the media and politicians for their own clandestine purposes. I’m going to work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I'll be out on my bike tomorrow morning. If challenged, unlikely though that is, my response will be: ok, how many relatives' war graves, battlefield memorials for I and II, Last Posts at Menen Gate, et al have you visited and paid your respects at then?
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I find it bizarre that the further we get from the horrors of war the more we want to wallow in it.
I don't blame the old boys who get wheeled out to enjoy their moment in the spotlight, good for them and I hope they are still remembered when the circus has moved on.
In 2016* we completed publication of my father's account of his war and added as much as we knew about mother's. Both were committed to a united Europe and I am glad this country only came to its current state when they were no longer around to have to witness it.
* not knowing the referendum result
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As far as I am aware nothing will happen where we are. :thumbsup:
Also, I've only just discovered that it's a bank holiday. I'm not sure Mrs B knows either. She hasn't mentioned it, so I haven't either. Looking forward to her logging on to her work laptop and getting all grumpy because no one's around. :demon:
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I know that everyone could do with a lift just now, but all this fuss that is being made about tomorrow feels a bit to jingoistic to me and I shall be hiding in my back garden once I’ve cut the grass in the front.
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It's a complete non event up here as far as I'm aware.
The same hereabouts, thankfully.
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Coincidentally but related, the NHS clapping has just happened. It sounded rather subdued and short today.
Tomorrow, I'll be working. I might go for a run later. As far as I'm aware, no tea or singing has been organised here and I've not noticed any bunting.
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I didn't really know it was the 75th anniversary. I'm not really sure why we are 'celebrating' it. I'm respectful of the sacrifice and glad we won, I don't think anyone is going to argue that Hitler and his pals were anything but thoroughly bad eggs (Trump probably reckons there were good people on both sides). That said, I was born many, many years after and no one in my family fought in the war (my grandparents were around, but since they were all miners, the closest they came was my gran, who made bullets in Player's cigarette factory, bullets being a faster-format cigarette when it came to death). Oh and the Luftwaffe tried to bomb my gran. Marked for death, she was. Or a lost bomber was dumping its spodeload. Unless a field in the East Midlands was a strategic target. Let's make some holes in fields, Adolf, they'll capitulate then.
That said, I'm minded it's not a bad thing if it gives a buzz of recognition to any of the old folks who did make the sacrifice. I can't be bothered with jingoistic nonsense though.
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Our neighbours have got flags up, at least one with spitfires on.
I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between this and the Thursday night clapping.
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I do remember VE50, as nobody dreamed of calling it at the time. I don't recall a great deal about except that the pubs were open.
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I remember D-Day 40 ::-)
I'm uncomfortable with the bank holiday TBH.
1.The Tories have always hated the May Day BH, because it's about workers' rights
2. In this jingoistic Brexit climate it will be used as another reason to tell everyone how special and brilliant we are, and to have a dig at the Krauts. Well, they're pissing all over us in the CV-19 stakes and generally being an enlightened, civilised country.
3. Boris might make a speech.
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I remember D-Day 40 ::-)
I'm uncomfortable with the bank holiday TBH.
1.The Tories have always hated the May Day BH, because it's about workers' rights
2. In this jingoistic Brexit climate it will be used as another reason to tell everyone how special and brilliant we are, and to have a dig at the Krauts. Well, they're pissing all over us in the CV-19 stakes and generally being an enlightened, civilised country.
3. Boris might make a speech.
Boris doesn't make speeches. He merely stumbles into a group of occasionally oversized words and a fight breaks out. He's the closing time pub car park of oration. Leave him alone Darren, he's not worth it.
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(https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/flat/bath-towel/images/artworkimages/medium/1/the-big-three-ww2-tehran-conference-1943-war-is-hell-store.jpg?&targetx=0&targety=-142&imagewidth=952&imageheight=761&modelwidth=952&modelheight=476&backgroundcolor=FFFFFF&orientation=1&producttype=bathtowel-32-64)
I am not sure it would be wise where I am to be celebrating Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill's achievement given what Stalin did to eastern Europe for the following 50+ years.
I've always loved that photo from Yalta. You can see in Churchill's expression that he knows that the UKs time as a world super power is over and that the US and the USSR are the future. Its a pity that most of the Tory Party haven't realised this yet 75 years on.
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Hmm, you've got me wondering now. I don't remember anything special for the 40th but was it D Day 50 or VE Day 50 I'm remembering spending in the St James? I think it was summer, so probably D Day. Could have been either really.
(So what were we being distracted from in 1994/5?(!))
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Boris doesn't make speeches. He merely stumbles into a group of occasionally oversized words and a fight breaks out. He's the closing time pub car park of oration. Leave him alone Darren, he's not worth it.
Ought that not be "Leave it Dom! He's not worth it"
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(https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/flat/bath-towel/images/artworkimages/medium/1/the-big-three-ww2-tehran-conference-1943-war-is-hell-store.jpg?&targetx=0&targety=-142&imagewidth=952&imageheight=761&modelwidth=952&modelheight=476&backgroundcolor=FFFFFF&orientation=1&producttype=bathtowel-32-64)
I am not sure it would be wise where I am to be celebrating Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill's achievement given what Stalin did to eastern Europe for the following 50+ years.
I've always loved that photo from Yalta. You can see in Churchill's expression that he knows that the UKs time as a world super power is over and that the US and the USSR are the future. Its a pity that most of the Tory Party haven't realised this yet 75 years on.
I reckon he's thinking "Four hours so far and not so much as a glass of sherry."
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While FDR and Uncle Joe are engaged in a smug contest.
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I'm not really sure why we are 'celebrating' it.
Two world wars and one world cup...Victory over Europe.
https://twitter.com/Frederika_R/status/1258281394012401670?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
EDIT and the daily Nazi comerative coin offer too.
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(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/1014517d5d8804f8ca3e4324d2219faceb62c0ec/0_0_3500_2359/master/3500.jpg?width=1065&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=08bfadb8505fed71db89b0f134921399) (https://www.theguardian.com/news/gallery/2020/may/07/shark-fins-and-a-powdered-demo-thursdays-best-photos#img-8)
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I remember D-Day 40 ::-)
I'm uncomfortable with the bank holiday TBH.
1.The Tories have always hated the May Day BH, because it's about workers' rights
2. In this jingoistic Brexit climate it will be used as another reason to tell everyone how special and brilliant we are, and to have a dig at the Krauts. Well, they're pissing all over us in the CV-19 stakes and generally being an enlightened, civilised country.
3. Boris might make a speech.
Boris doesn't make speeches. He merely stumbles into a group of occasionally oversized words and a fight breaks out. He's the closing time pub car park of oration. Leave him alone Darren, he's not worth it.
Boris.... Only ever..... Speaks..... Collections..... Of words..... That are.... Only.... Loosely..... Punctually..... Connected...... To each..... Other.... Like..... He's...... Having to...... Think...... Very..... Carefully...... About..... The Legal..... And political ..... Ramifications...... Of each..... One
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Our neighbours have got flags up, at least one with spitfires on.
I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between this and the Thursday night clapping.
I am absolutely convinced that there is a considerable subsection of the population that seriously believes that England (yes, England) won the second World War single handed.
Their knowledge of the reasons for the war, and the contribution of the allies, and of -'empire' forces is almost certainly next to zero.
To many of this subsection (a subset of the subsection) the war is nothing more than a victory at a game of footie.
It was us wot won it, innit.
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Last year on my way through I visited the place in Reims where the surrender was signd (on the 7th May 1945). Fittingly it's now an international school.
For the sake of accuracy check mate was on
4 May 1945 1830 British Double Summer Time at Lüneburg Heath, south of Hamburg, Field Marshal Sir Bernard Law Montgomery accepted the unconditional surrender of the German forces in the Netherlands, northwest Germany including all islands, in Denmark and all naval ships in those areas. The surrender preceded the end of World War II in Europe and was signed in a carpeted tent at Montgomery's headquarters on the Timeloberg hill at Wendisch Evern.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/374fa6f8a1c62342fd62e33edc90ee8c/tumblr_nnu6oqbHJC1qhk04bo1_1280.png)
The end of the Second World War saw a terrible explosion of violence across Europe. Prisoners murdered jailers. Soldiers visited atrocities on civilians. Resistance fighters killed and pilloried collaborators. Ethnic cleansing, civil war, rape and murder were rife in the days, months and years after hostilities ended. Exploring a Europe consumed by vengeance, Savage Continent is a shocking portrait of an until-now unacknowledged time of lawlessness and terror.
Those who built what is now the EU knew the consequences of its failure.
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Our neighbours have got flags up, at least one with spitfires on.
I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between this and the Thursday night clapping.
I am absolutely convinced that there is a considerable subsection of the population that seriously believes that England (yes, England) won the second World War single handed.
Their knowledge of the reasons for the war, and the contribution of the allies, and of -'empire' forces is almost certainly next to zero.
To many of this subsection (a subset of the subsection) the war is nothing more than a victory at a game of footie.
It was us wot won it, innit.
Quite probably a similar proportion of USAninnnies think they won he war, and of Japanese think they were very badly treated.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
Berlin has a one off holiday, to celebrate liberation.
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Our neighbours have got flags up, at least one with spitfires on.
I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between this and the Thursday night clapping.
I am absolutely convinced that there is a considerable subsection of the population that seriously believes that England (yes, England) won the second World War single handed.
Their knowledge of the reasons for the war, and the contribution of the allies, and of -'empire' forces is almost certainly next to zero.
To many of this subsection (a subset of the subsection) the war is nothing more than a victory at a game of footie.
It was us wot won it, innit.
Oh I'm sure you're right, I think you'd find it's actually quite a large section of the population
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8th May was a public holiday in 1977. Or it was for me** in Leipzig, and it was called Tag der Befreiung vom Faschismus*. It was hot and we lounged about in the park, in contrast to a week earlier, when it had been drizzly.
* Day of Liberation from Fascism
** and Angela Merkel, whatever she was called then
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OK, so far I’ve been made aware of an 11am silence? , a 3pm something or other ( possibly “ raising a glass” after Churchill’s speech,) and a community singing of “ We’ll meet again” at some time this evening.
And the Minister on TV this morning was proud of the “ celebrations we’ve organised”.
I think I’m tempted to just hide away. However, the patriotic police in the road I live on might pull me up.
Anybody any clue as to exact what is supposed to be happening?
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It seems like an excuse to evoke the past, maybe sidestepping some of the expectations of respect that remembrance still clings to and with none of the joy of Beltane. I shan't be singing in the street.
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I think I’m tempted to just hide away. However, the patriotic police in the road I live on might pull me up.
:-D
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I think I’m tempted to just hide away. However, the patriotic police in the road I live on might pull me up.
:-D
Our local Neighbourhood Watch co-ordinator, who has taken the Covid business as an opportunity to appoint himself as a kind of Redcoat in Chief, proposed setting up some speakers and broadcasting the concert from the Albert Hall this evening, with Vera Lynn croaking her way through The White Racists of Dover and Katherine Jenkins doing her usual histrionic caterwauling. Glad to see he was immediately shouted down by the majority of my neighbours.
I'll be taking a pause at 11.00, to respect those on all sides who lost their lives, but that's it. All the jingoistic stuff can **** itself.
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Official stuff: https://ve-vjday75.gov.uk/
(& 5 yrsa https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ve-day-events-and-general-information )
ETA. probably won't be trying Spam Hash or Homity pie, but instead having a non-VE related socially distant BBQ at lunch...
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
Berlin has a one off holiday, to celebrate liberation.
Ortlieb alert!
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Twenty-five years ago, when they moved the bank holiday for the 50th Anniversary (but the 8th was a Monday so far less confusing), I was morris dancing at a village fete. Said fete was an annual affair, and the team had been several times before, but this time they had a little commemorative bit at the start of the event. A standard bearer from the British Legion, a two minutes silence, there may have been Last Post. I remember feeling it was all a bit odd and out of place back then. It would be even weirder now.
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ETA. probably won't be trying Spam Hash or Homity pie, but instead having a non-VE related socially distant BBQ at lunch...
Is homity pie a WWII hangover? I thought it was older, though I first encountered it in the 90s. I like it.
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There's a German guy in my village, married, kids etc, he runs the volunteer community shop.
Just seen him unloading a car full of stock into the shop (closed for BH).
I'm just going to pop out and remind him we won the war.
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Anyone see the Red Arrows? Me neither.
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I did - was out at regents park and saw them by chance.
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ETA. probably won't be trying Spam Hash or Homity pie, but instead having a non-VE related socially distant BBQ at lunch...
Is homity pie a WWII hangover? I thought it was older, though I first encountered it in the 90s. I like it.
I think Homity Pie predates WW2. Woolton Pie, named after/promoted by Lord Woolton who was minister of food was a WW2 invention. Both Homity Pie and Woolton Pie are meatless.
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There's a German guy in my village, married, kids etc, he runs the volunteer community shop.
Just seen him unloading a car full of stock into the shop (closed for BH).
I'm just going to pop out and remind him we won the war.
Don't forget the other one. And the World Cup.
Have an urgent appointment ready if he mentions coronavirus or the motor industry.
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ETA. probably won't be trying Spam Hash or Homity pie, but instead having a non-VE related socially distant BBQ at lunch...
Is homity pie a WWII hangover? I thought it was older, though I first encountered it in the 90s. I like it.
I think Homity Pie predates WW2. Woolton Pie, named after/promoted by Lord Woolton who was minister of food was a WW2 invention. Both Homity Pie and Woolton Pie are meatless.
I remember reading that the only WW2 food invention to have survived is carrot cake.
wikipedia says its origin was much older, but that it was revived in WW2 because less sugar is required.
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I'm sure those who care about such things will e'en now be looking for the green ink, that they might write to the local newspaper complaining about the minute of silence being RUINED by the Met's helichopter. Me, I laughed. And went back to sleep.
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Fortunately no VE shite here, it's largely abandoned studentville and a few non-student randoms.
There's remembrance and then there's jingoistic shit like this. And most remembrance is jingoistic shit and perpetuates all of our ignorances about so much of the wretched Empire and ignores many who genuinely suffered. I am ignoring this day entirely.
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A Polish friend has just Facebooked a picture of her bunting-strewn house bedecked with mostly Union flags and the occasional Polish flad.
States she's marking VD Day [sic]
Should I correct?
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A Polish friend has just Facebooked a picture of her bunting-strewn house bedecked with mostly Union flags and the occasional Polish flad.
States she's marking VD Day [sic]
Should I correct?
May be a personal celebration?
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Someone has decided to be the village DJ with Vera Lyn on loop. Headphones on, I’m going to do angry PJ Harvey.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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A Polish friend has just Facebooked a picture of her bunting-strewn house bedecked with mostly Union flags and the occasional Polish flad.
States she's marking VD Day [sic]
Should I correct?
Victory over Deutschland?
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Lot of tea and cake being eaten by neighbours who are socialising at separate tables which is very pleasant, but the playing of old WW2 tunes and other war time memorabilia by relatvely young people I do not understand at all. Who is this actually for?
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The Tory government. It swaps a holiday celebrating Labour for a nostalgic distraction.
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The Tory government. It swaps a holiday celebrating Labour for a nostalgic distraction.
Quite!
Distraction from the domestic catastrophe...
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Hah! We get them both.
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To be fair, it was decided (or announced) to move the bank holiday back in June las year - so not exactly something for the pandemic.
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Mike Harding, whom I follow on Facebook, said this morning that his mother wasn’t one for celebrating VE Day as she reckoned that a German Widow was every bit the same as a British Widow.
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Friday is bin day, so I checked the council website last night to see if it had been rescheduled. It said our next bins were today. I didn't quite trust it but put them out anyway and, yes, they were collected. No holiday for the bin men.
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Reflect on this. VE day happened near the end of a war in the middle of last century.
Not for a moment belittling the dead and the suffering. But lets be clear - this happened last century.
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Jaded, I never said this holiday date change was a distraction from the virus. This government relies on distractions from everything it actually does to maintain its support base.
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Last year on my way through I visited the place in Reims where the surrender was signd (on the 7th May 1945). Fittingly it's now an international school.
For the sake of accuracy check mate was on
4 May 1945 1830 British Double Summer Time at Lüneburg Heath, south of Hamburg, Field Marshal Sir Bernard Law Montgomery accepted the unconditional surrender of the German forces in the Netherlands, northwest Germany including all islands, in Denmark and all naval ships in those areas. The surrender preceded the end of World War II in Europe and was signed in a carpeted tent at Montgomery's headquarters on the Timeloberg hill at Wendisch Evern.
I suspect it's a technicality thing, he was the number 2 pecking order and wasn't taking the surrender of all the German forces.
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/55c0a0b9e4b0b9bcbeb36515/1588959257565-BXSX6W00BJYGIPBH7GU2/1050248.jpg?format=750w&content-type=image%2Fjpeg)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/55c0a0b9e4b0b9bcbeb36515/1588959261688-95TGO3HN6J1W7J9AFZK8/1050240.jpg?format=1000w&content-type=image%2Fjpeg)
Thank god it did end though. Now if only we could stay a part of the Europe that resulted from it.
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Mike Harding, whom I follow on Facebook, said this morning that his mother wasn’t one for celebrating VE Day as she reckoned that a German Widow was every bit the same as a British Widow.
Mike Harding is far too sensible for the current world.
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For the last 45 years, I've worked with people from all the countries that were at war in 1939-45. We've spent a huge amount of effort to cast aside the differences that made that war more likely, and - at least at a parochial level - we have succeeded.
Among my first jobs was working for NAAFI in Germany in the early 1970s. At the time, German citizens would still apologise to other NATO nationalities, in otherwise quite normal social interactions, for what 'they' inflicted on us during WW2. I couldn't accept that then, and I'm certainly not going to accept it now. As in the Cold War, we fought a regime and its ideology, not a nation. I will not subscribe to a celebration of the events of 1939-45 that crows about the defeat of that nation (or 'Victory Over Europe' as it was termed in some advertising). The few remaining veterans of that war that I know have no interest in celebrating any military victory, simply a peace that - very fortunately - was won by an alliance that essentially had freedom as its watchword. And, despite the suspicions of some here, still does. Imperfectly, perhaps.
I want to be able to look my German friends in the eye today and be able to celebrate with them that peace and freedom, not some football-fan-stylee 'two world wars and one world cup' event that seems to be so much of the driver today.
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(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/03762eed7d2cdbb456e76ecc49faf3cbed3c8d28/32_46_4783_2914/master/4783.jpg?width=1065&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=aa445382acea98af51edf9afe8cda1af) (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/may/08/martin-rowson-darker-side-ve-day-coronavirus-cartoon)
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Ouch. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/07/royal-hospital-chelsea-says-nine-pensioners-have-died-from-covid-19 :'(
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Listening to vox pop on R4 news, I keep hearing "celebrating the war".
FFS
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Nearly everything about today is what is wrong with the British. My in-laws were celebrating, although i can almost forgive them that given that they met during the war when m-in-l was evacuated to the town f-in-l lived. But the rest. Union flags with everything. There was even a street party here this afternoon. Hopefully it’ll all just fade away now.
I feel a grumpy bastard for saying this but the jingoism really grates in my mind against the remembrance thing and seems to be against most of what they all fought for.
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I had a bit of a ride round today. Saw lots of street parties. Didnt see anybody over 70.
I'm not really sure what this VE day is actually about. Remembering the dead? Remembering the living? Celebrating stuffing it to the Hun?
Or is it fake remembrance to create and coalesce a national myth...
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Jaded, I never said this holiday date change was a distraction from the virus. This government relies on distractions from everything it actually does to maintain its support base.
I wasn’t aware that I had directed my response at anyone in particular.
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I had a bit of a ride round today. Saw lots of street parties. Didnt see anybody over 70.
Well I saw an over 70 outside. She was, as she often is this time of year, on the roof of her chalet bungalow painting the cladding of the upper room. She also had 4 union flags on the property. No street party though, thank goodness.
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From 4pm yesterday, nearly every house around here (~15+) had people outside on lawns with various beverages of choice... Some bunting/flags were evident. We went outside and were social-ly distant; I even had tea in a union jack mug - but can't really say I was celebrating anything... Had a few long range chats, and retreated after an hour or so. Some stayed out until 9-10pm, and the wine, prosecco, beer probably helped with them singing 'we'll meet again' with some gusto...
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A neighbour was playing 1940's stuff behind us for a while. Apparently you used to get nightingales singing in Berkeley Square once but I doubt if bluebirds were ever over Dover.
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Listening to vox pop on R4 news, I keep hearing "celebrating the war".
FFS
It's accurate, even though it's probably not what they mean, if you think about Commando comics and almost every war film ever made. Though the word "the" might be superfluous.
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Listening to vox pop on R4 news, I keep hearing "celebrating the war".
FFS
It's accurate, even though it's probably not what they mean, if you think about Commando comics and almost every war film ever made. Though the word "the" might be superfluous.
I do remember commando comics at school. We called them 'trash' mags and I can't remember them being highly regarded. In fact we didn't take much interest in 'the war' or ask one another what their parents did 'in the war'.
Near us we had a kind of veterans retirement home. They used to sit outside facing the quiet road we used to walk along. I always remember one of them who had a clean handkerchief in front of him on a table and all he did was fold it up and then unfold it, over and over again.
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My dad asked to borrow my union flag. He was 12 when the war ended and life had been a bit shit for a fair few years. VE Day was celebrating the war was (mainly) over and that things would get better. I was surprised at his enthusiasm as he is very dismissive of the whole Poppy Day thing.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Or is it fake remembrance to create and coalesce a national myth...
Something invented by the red tops, I reckon.
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Fortunately no VE shite here, it's largely abandoned studentville and a few non-student randoms.
For completeness I should mention the large linear bunting-fest round the corner on $posh_road, just outside barakta's current walking range.
I was out for a bike ride yesterday, and passed a great deal of bunting and occasional street parties. My general impression was that most were little clusters of middle class people who know their neighbours using it as excuse to do something less dull than REMAIN INDOORS, and were a celebration of that special kind of not-even-ironic middle-English bunting-and-teacakes-ness that normally only gets organised for sporting events and royal weddings. Others were more specifically VE-day-themed, with Spitfires and Vera Lynn and such. I noticed a few people old enough to remember the war in attendance. And some were just neighbours having a party in their front gardens, without any real theme or decorations - I got the distinct impression that some were celebrating the impending end of the lockdown. :-\
There seemed to be a wide variation in how central the union jack was to the decorations. Sometimes it was just a bit of bunting, often amongst more home-made decorations (particularly in the posher areas, where rainbows were also a central theme). Others had made a huge feature of them, in a way that's hard not to interpret as nationalistic.
Bonus points to the couple of houses whose decorations included a) French and b) Polish flags.
Nil points for upside-down union jacks (several) and England flags left over from the last big sportsball event.
(There was also a house with a creepy scarecrow of a nurse in the front garden. The Uncanny Valley supports our NHS heroes, or something.)
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In deepest Bermondsey today I saw one Union Jack. You would have thought this a hearlland of bunting and flags.
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The people over the road have some framed pictures in their window. At first floor level, and my eyesight isn't good enough to make out the details but I think formal pictures. I can completely see that pride in what they (or family) did - as well as the peace won, even if I don't want to display it that way.
I still find the party atmosphere a bit weird so far from the event though.
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I went past a house yesterday displaying: The Union flag, the South African flag, the Irish flag (I think) and the student's favourite, a Che Guevera flag.
The Village Flag Man (big flag pole in the front garden, flags displayed for any occasion) had a Stars and Stripes hanging from a first floor window, something I can't remember on the fence and a Union flag upside down on his flag pole. He might have meant it, but otherwise I think his post as Village Ensign is up for review.
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Apart from the usual bunting, I was pleased to see someone in Barnie with Aus and NZ flags, and I was wondering if there might be an India flag as well, but I was surprised to see a French flag. At that point, they ran out of space on their van.
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The Tory government. It swaps a holiday celebrating Labour for a nostalgic distraction.
This.
I took the Monday off and worked Friday. I am fed up with WW2 "nostalgia" being rammed down my throat, Germany has been a responsible member of Europe for a long time now and I find it a bit nauseating this jingoistic celebration of defeating a nation that is not only an ally but in fact a place to look up to in many ways.
GC
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https://www.bundespraesident.de/SharedDocs/Reden/EN/Frank-Walter-Steinmeier/Reden/2020/05/200508-75th-anniversary-World-War-II.html (https://www.bundespraesident.de/SharedDocs/Reden/EN/Frank-Walter-Steinmeier/Reden/2020/05/200508-75th-anniversary-World-War-II.html)
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The Tory government. It swaps a holiday celebrating Labour for a nostalgic distraction.
This.
I took the Monday off and worked Friday. I am fed up with WW2 "nostalgia" being rammed down my throat, Germany has been a responsible member of Europe for a long time now and I find it a bit nauseating this jingoistic celebration of defeating a nation that is not only an ally but in fact a place to look up to in many ways.
GC
Shame for you it's a celebration in Germany of Liberation Day.
They celebrate being freed from the tyranny of the Nazis
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Shame for you it's a celebration in Germany of Liberation Day.
They celebrate being freed from the tyranny of the Nazis
Yet, the day after, there are protests by far right groups in Alexander Platz in Berlin.
J
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https://www.bundespraesident.de/SharedDocs/Reden/EN/Frank-Walter-Steinmeier/Reden/2020/05/200508-75th-anniversary-World-War-II.html (https://www.bundespraesident.de/SharedDocs/Reden/EN/Frank-Walter-Steinmeier/Reden/2020/05/200508-75th-anniversary-World-War-II.html)
Wonderful speech.
"Human dignity shall be inviolable." :thumbsup:
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https://www.bundespraesident.de/SharedDocs/Reden/EN/Frank-Walter-Steinmeier/Reden/2020/05/200508-75th-anniversary-World-War-II.html (https://www.bundespraesident.de/SharedDocs/Reden/EN/Frank-Walter-Steinmeier/Reden/2020/05/200508-75th-anniversary-World-War-II.html)
That is really powerful. Thoughtful stuff.
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(There was also a house with a creepy scarecrow of a nurse in the front garden. The Uncanny Valley supports our NHS heroes, or something.)
Some village scarecrow competitions/festivals this year have had an NHS theme. My favourite that I've seen so far was a farmer in wellies, legs akimbo, upside down with his head stuck in a hedge and the label NHS on him (also upside down).
I hope sociologists, anthropologists etc are noting the role of the scarecrow as "village festival item". There might be comparisons to be made with the changing role of pumpkins and the decline of Guys.
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"Never again," we vowed after the war. But for us Germans in particular, this "never again" means "never again alone". This sentence is truer in Europe than anywhere else. We must keep Europe together. We must think, feel and act as Europeans. If we do not hold Europe together, also during and after this pandemic, then we will have shown ourselves not to be worthy of 8 May. If Europe fails, the "never again" also fails.
Hence the irony of post-Brexit British Street parties.
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Some friends were expecting a baby. It was born on 8th May, so that's good. They'd been wanting a baby for years, a couple of attempts had resulted in miscarriage so VE Day could now stand for Victory over Empty womb day. ;D
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Posh, big-housed, old, white bits of Oxted. Flags aplenty. Everywhere else, less so.
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Posh, big-housed, old, white bits of Oxted. Flags aplenty. Everywhere else, less so.
Basically the inverse of St George's flags during a football tournament, then.
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Precisely.
And not one single English flag with ENGLAND printed across the middle.
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See a few Zwift riders with the England flag altho' most have the Union emblem. I am a Canadian at the moment but may decide to emigrate to an African country soon, not Kenya, that's too obvious. Or maybe Finland. My Zwift name is a transnational one.
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Some friends' baby was born in May. I just discovered it was actually the 8th of May. A boy. They didn't call him Victor or Winston.
In fact they called him, rather inappropriately,
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Some friends' baby was born in May. I just discovered it was actually the 8th of May. A boy. They didn't call him Victor or Winston.
In fact they called him, rather inappropriately,
Conception?
Date of, that is.
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Some friends' baby was born in May. I just discovered it was actually the 8th of May. A boy. They didn't call him Victor or Winston.
In fact they called him, rather inappropriately,
August Thyssen was a German industrialist, a steel magnate.
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Some friends' baby was born in May. I just discovered it was actually the 8th of May. A boy. They didn't call him Victor or Winston.
In fact they called him, rather inappropriately,
Conception?
Date of, that is.
Hadn't thought of that, but I guess the timing works!