Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 01:39:55 pm

Title: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 01:39:55 pm

Am wondering what people think is a good number of controls for a 200k audax is. I've done events with as few as 2, and as many as 5, but most have 3-4. But I was talking with another audaxer who suggested 4 was too many for a 200.

How many is too many?

Thoughts?

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: telstarbox on 26 September, 2019, 01:43:01 pm
Assuming this doesn't include the HQ itself?
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 26 September, 2019, 01:44:30 pm
2 intermediates seems reasonable, but then I'm used to calendar events on road networks that allow for so few in a free route.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: bludger on 26 September, 2019, 01:48:06 pm
I'm planning my own 200 right now. Looking at the organiser handbook, I'm thinking 3 controls, not including the depart and arrivée is about right, roughly every 40-60km (if I recall the handbook correctly).

I've also put in 3 infos so far, mostly because I think the validators will want them for the purposes of 'prevent people from taking short cuts.' The draft ride is basically a 'diamond lasoo' at the moment, with the main controls at the point where the diamond meets the 'snake' back to London, and the furthest point out west. Waiting from some feedback from my talented and experienced mentor for the time being ;D
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: hellymedic on 26 September, 2019, 01:51:23 pm
Assuming this doesn't include the HQ itself?

Indeed. My optimum out & back 200 would be Start, midway to turn, turn, midway back & Arrivée.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: slugbait on 26 September, 2019, 02:16:29 pm
3 is my preferred number of controls, but 2 or 4 is also OK. I have to add that when I organize 200's they tend to have 4 controls...

In terms of spacing: optimally at 60k, 120k and 160k.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Paul H on 26 September, 2019, 02:26:29 pm
How quickly you can get through them is IMO more important than how many.  Assuming two is the required minimum, that's what I vote for  I'd only usually stop at one, but on the Tortoise>Hare scale I'm firmly the former.  If each control requires locking the bike and a queue, four might well eat up time I'd rather spend moving. I know it's considered unusual, but I don't mind infos, they're something to look out for and they can usually be answered without getting off the bike.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: bludger on 26 September, 2019, 02:36:36 pm
Infos can really depend. I like ones that are very clearly linked to an obvious thing you come across e.g. 'colour of church of St Bludger's doors'. The ones that irk me are e.g. 'what animal statue on wall' because you'll be searching and searching walls and whatnot, whereas a church door is very obvious when a route goes past it, and it doesn't really matter if it's a few hundred metres 'off'.

My favourite info is a volunteer holding a big fluoro sign with a letter on it, but that's quite labour intensive to pull off.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 26 September, 2019, 02:39:34 pm
My favourite info is a volunteer holding a big fluoro sign with a letter on it, but that's quite labour intensive to pull off.

You can always volunteer a lamppost... until a local or other gadgie removes it...
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: lmm on 26 September, 2019, 02:46:01 pm
4 seems absolutely fine to me, that's one every 40k. I'd say closer than 20km is starting to take the piss, so even 8 or 9 controls wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

I'd include infos in that count though, as I don't find them any less hassle than a manned or "free" control - quite the opposite in fact.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Greenbank on 26 September, 2019, 02:57:23 pm
I'd include infos in that count though, as I don't find them any less hassle than a manned or "free" control - quite the opposite in fact.

Indeed, the best info controls are those that can be observed without the need to stop cycling let alone get off the bike.

Also, compare it to PBP where the first official control (that you have to stop at) is at ~220km.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 03:09:58 pm

My favourite info is a volunteer holding a big fluoro sign with a letter on it, but that's quite labour intensive to pull off.

If you're going to that length, why not give the volunteer a couple of slabs of soft drinks, some mars bars, and a stamp?

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Wobbly on 26 September, 2019, 03:19:16 pm
The question's a bit ambiguous, so my answer might be out by one.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: zigzag on 26 September, 2019, 03:36:53 pm
ideally two controls - at 80km and 150km. progressively shorter distances (80, 70, 60*) to accommodate the increasing fatigue.

* 200 is normally ~210k
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 26 September, 2019, 03:52:26 pm
If advisory you have to be mindful of meeting min distance in planning whilst not having an overly over distance actual event route. Mandatory you can have fewer controls with a secret one possibly thrown in. The shape of a route will often dictate the number of controls, an out and back (such as PBP) requiring the fewest. (Even fewer if one way like an arrow)

Some hate getting a receipt, some hate Infos, some hate stopping, some hate queuing. You can mitigate the receipt and queuing by having a volunteer or sheet of stickers at certain controls. Try an avoid Infos if some riders might pass that location when dark and struggle to answer (or indeed read) the question
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 September, 2019, 03:58:06 pm
'colour of church of St Bludger's doors'.
And the three miracles of St Bludger are:
The appearance of a centrally-heated bus shelter with pasty-vending machine at 2am on a wet 600;
The vision of a glowing hand pointing the way when completely lost with a failed GPS and a lost route sheet on the Arse End of Nowhere and Back Again 400;
The delivery of a full-carbon disc frame with 105 for £1.99 in the Planet X sale.
Blessed be St Bludger, for he strengthens the weary of leg, warms the cold of soaked jersey and invigorates the spirit of human muscular effort.
Here endeth the lesson of the Holy Randonneur. 
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 04:06:27 pm
If advisory you have to be mindful of meeting min distance in planning whilst not having an overly over distance actual event route. Mandatory you can have fewer controls with a secret one possibly thrown in. The shape of a route will often dictate the number of controls, an out and back (such as PBP) requiring the fewest. (Even fewer if one way like an arrow)

The event I'm organising is a mandatory route event (like all Dutch events).

Quote
Some hate getting a receipt, some hate Infos, some hate stopping, some hate queuing. You can mitigate the receipt and queuing by having a volunteer or sheet of stickers at certain controls. Try an avoid Infos if some riders might pass that location when dark and struggle to answer (or indeed read) the question

Info's are a tough one when you have to deal with multi language instructions, and of course the issue of colour blindness etc... But the choosing a good info thing has been done in a number of other threads.

Photo controls seem to becoming more common, quite a nice alternative to info controls (tho assumes everyone carries a camera/phone)

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 04:11:26 pm
The question's a bit ambiguous, so my answer might be out by one.

I'm not counting the start, or the arrivee as controls. Does that help remove ambiguity?

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: hellymedic on 26 September, 2019, 04:12:30 pm
I think a useful answer depends on whether food & drink are available at the start and whether several riders have ridden to the start.

I was of the sort that need food every 50km and was REALLY low on one ride where I'd ridden 30km to the start and not eaten (my folly) until the 50km control.

(The 7 cups of TEA and CAEK revived me...)
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 26 September, 2019, 04:18:27 pm

Info's are a tough one when you have to deal with multi language instructions, and of course the issue of colour blindness etc... But the choosing a good info thing has been done in a number of other threads.

Photo controls seem to becoming more common, quite a nice alternative to info controls (tho assumes everyone carries a camera/phone)

J

This wasn't so much about choosing a good info as to choosing between having an info or a control.  The former might seem preferable to reduce the number places riders need to get a receipt etc. but the timing may not work for all riders.  The number of full controls is linked with the number of infos; as one can often substitute the other. 

On WAWA in 16 we had the choice of getting a receipt, answering an info or taking a photo in a few locations.  As long as you had something you could present (easily) as proof of passage at the next manned control. That worked well.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Wobbly on 26 September, 2019, 04:18:45 pm
Some hate getting a receipt, some hate Infos, some hate stopping, some hate queuing

I have the full set: I hate all of them  ;D
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: bludger on 26 September, 2019, 05:11:06 pm

My favourite info is a volunteer holding a big fluoro sign with a letter on it, but that's quite labour intensive to pull off.

If you're going to that length, why not give the volunteer a couple of slabs of soft drinks, some mars bars, and a stamp?

J
The last time I saw the volunteer with the card control it was on a Grimpeur at the 20kish mark. I think they were there just for AAA purposes. I still felt sorry for them as they were on their own.

'colour of church of St Bludger's doors'.
And the three miracles of St Bludger are:
The appearance of a centrally-heated bus shelter with pasty-vending machine at 2am on a wet 600;

Ugh. During my first 400, the halfway control was the Australian war memorial in France (I think? We started in Belgium...). It was outside because the start was 6pm and it was freezing cold. I saw a glowing vending machine and ran straight for it as there wasn't an open petrol station or late night Mcdonalds within sight, but it was for those audio tour guide walkie talkie things. I was not amused.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Greenbank on 26 September, 2019, 05:15:56 pm
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.

I remember a "drop a laminated token in a bucket someone is holding at the side of the road" control within the first 10km of the one 200[1] many years ago. Worked well and the person was probably only standing at the side of the road for 15 minutes or so, easily free to be able to man a control later on in the ride.

1. Upper Thames or maybe it was the SBWW. 10 years ago at least.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 26 September, 2019, 05:20:01 pm
Assuming we are talking about intermediates and not arrivee, the 2 or 3. So the ride is in three legs of 70km or 4 legs of 50km, less than 50km between controls seems to soon.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: wilkyboy on 26 September, 2019, 05:21:05 pm
One intermediate control is the correct number for a 200.  Two at a pinch.  Three if you must.  More than that is superfluous*.

Note that the org's handbook is out of date on this matter:  at the last AGM I spoke for the motion to remove the need for organisers to position controls such as to get riders to dismount and top up, and this motion was passed (actually irrespective of whether I spoke, as online voting meant it already had the necessary majority  ::-)).  Therefore riders are responsible for planning and making their own refreshment stops (if any), and organisers can place controls where needed for minimum distance; if the two coincide then that's nice, but not necessary.

My two 200s have one and two controls each.  As it happens, both have ample opportunity to stop mid-stage for a cuppa, if needed/wanted by individual riders (and there are plenty who ride straight thru without stopping, myself included).

Just to add — this is an Audax UK point of view, other countries may have different requirements.


* IMO.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Zed43 on 26 September, 2019, 05:26:48 pm
I like the last leg to the finish to be rather short, say 35-40km. Otherwise, 60-70km between controls feels ideal. You do the math  :P

For me it's not so much a physical as a mental thing. Sure, you can divide a long leg by planning a stopover yourself, but somehow I rarely do and when I do it doesn't have the same feel. Yeah, I'm weird  ;D
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Greenbank on 26 September, 2019, 05:35:23 pm
Also, something to bear in mind, my requirements now (as a much more experienced rider) are quite different to when I first started Audaxing.

50km seemed like a very long way to the first control on my first 200 and I felt like I desperately needed refuelling when I got there. I'm sure I could have still got through had it been 80/70/60km legs but I was glad it was closer to 50/50/50/50.

Now I'd probably prefer 80/70/60 and would bounce the 80km control to have a first proper rest/restock at 150km. I'm much more set up for fuelling on the move now so the controls are more of a minor annoyance than a relief/sanctuary.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 05:41:41 pm
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.


Just under 90 minutes based on the RUSA calculator. For an 0900 start, they have to be there from 0935 until 1100...

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 26 September, 2019, 05:43:08 pm
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.


Just under 90 minutes based on the RUSA calculator. For an 0900 start, they have to be there from 0935 until 1100...

J

About 45 minutes by BR rules
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 05:46:35 pm

About 45 minutes by BR rules

I'm organising a BRM, so I have to play by the rules from ACP, not AUK.

Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 26 September, 2019, 05:51:45 pm

About 45 minutes by BR rules

I'm organising a BRM, so I have to play by the rules from ACP, not AUK.

Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

J

I don't think you get extra time for starting late. My understanding is that you can start late, but you are eating into your time provision... and I also thought the obligation for the organiser is for 30 minutes, not 60.

All academic, obviously, as nobody gives a monkey about timing at a control at km 20 and if the controller is no longer there, I am sure you can get away with a selfie, receipt or other POP
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 06:06:28 pm
I don't think you get extra time for starting late. My understanding is that you can start late, but you are eating into your time provision... and I also thought the obligation for the organiser is for 30 minutes, not 60.

You don't get extra time, but the organisers are also required to not close controls while people are still allowed to start...

Quote

All academic, obviously, as nobody gives a monkey about timing at a control at km 20 and if the controller is no longer there, I am sure you can get away with a selfie, receipt or other POP

It's not academic in every case.

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: postie on 26 September, 2019, 06:17:33 pm
2 is best, 3 is ok ,anymore too many.
I guess the thing is , if your route has lots of places to get food/drink riders can stop were they like , so 2 stamp controls would be fine.

I am rider who likes 70km plus between controls many do many don't
As a organizer why have more control's then i need.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Ian H on 26 September, 2019, 06:17:57 pm
The greatest emphasis should be on the distance, accomplished with easy navigation.  If it's too convoluted then it probably needs a re-think.   
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 26 September, 2019, 06:23:25 pm
As Ian says,

basically a control is there for a reason, which typically is to define the shape of your route. A "rectangle shaped route" will have typically 3 controls, a triangle can do with 2. More complicated shapes will need more controls or more info controls.

Route is king, then you sort out the controls accordingly.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 26 September, 2019, 07:15:56 pm
There's the railway problem of course. Around here we have to put a control between the obvious stops at Preston, Lancaster, Penrith etc. 200s tend to less affected than longer rides, as the shorter ones go into the hills. The M6 motorway services tend to get used, as they are nowhere near railway stations.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: grams on 26 September, 2019, 07:59:00 pm
Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

No you can’t. Nor on an AUK BRM, since that rule hasn’t been copied over.

(Do continental organisers really hang around at the start for an hour?)
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 September, 2019, 08:00:22 pm
Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

No you can’t. Nor on an AUK BRM, since that rule hasn’t been copied over.

Oh. No late starting at all on AUK events?

Quote
(Do continental organisers really hang around at the start for an hour?)

yes.


J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 27 September, 2019, 08:14:21 am
Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

No you can’t. Nor on an AUK BRM, since that rule hasn’t been copied over.

Oh. No late starting at all on AUK events?

Quote

Haven't seen any guideline on the AUK organiser handbook,which suggests it is discretionary. Personally I don't bother to hang around more than 5 minutes and if someone wants to start late, they can always come back with POP even without a card and get validation. Info controls can be replaced by selfies or other forms of POP.
As long as the evidence is satisfactory, the card is redundant
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: phil d on 27 September, 2019, 09:07:40 am
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.

I remember a "drop a laminated token in a bucket someone is holding at the side of the road" control within the first 10km of the one 200[1] many years ago. Worked well and the person was probably only standing at the side of the road for 15 minutes or so, easily free to be able to man a control later on in the ride.

1. Upper Thames or maybe it was the SBWW. 10 years ago at least.

Yes, Upper Thames, 2004 and 2005. It didn't really work that well - too many riders seemed confused by the concept of taking a token at the start that they dropped in a bucket a few km down the road as they rode past!

Many riders have told me that when I moved the start/arrivee and dropped from 3 controls to two it was a much better event. The loss of a big hill in the final 10k was part of that (it's still in the event, but near the start instead), but lots expressed a preference for the two (almost exactly equally spaced along the route) controls. 70km gives a far better chance of a late starter reaching the first control "in time". Always supposing that the start is still manned for their late departure.

Given the availability of food outlets in England and (most of) Wales, I agree with Wilkyboy's comments above, but rather different criteria might apply in much of Scotland.

Given the OP's statement that they are organising a mandatory route event the number of infos is irrelevant. There are plenty of threads here about them anyway.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: De Sisti on 27 September, 2019, 09:18:30 am
There used to be 3 within the first 70k on the old Cheltenham Flyer. :jurek:
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: grams on 27 September, 2019, 09:33:24 am
I quite like when organisers pick a suitable eatery for riders to feel part of a collective endeavour.

(“Suitable” being the tricky bit, of course)
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Ivo on 27 September, 2019, 10:17:32 am
If advisory you have to be mindful of meeting min distance in planning whilst not having an overly over distance actual event route. Mandatory you can have fewer controls with a secret one possibly thrown in. The shape of a route will often dictate the number of controls, an out and back (such as PBP) requiring the fewest. (Even fewer if one way like an arrow)

The event I'm organising is a mandatory route event (like all Dutch events).

Quote
Some hate getting a receipt, some hate Infos, some hate stopping, some hate queuing. You can mitigate the receipt and queuing by having a volunteer or sheet of stickers at certain controls. Try an avoid Infos if some riders might pass that location when dark and struggle to answer (or indeed read) the question

Info's are a tough one when you have to deal with multi language instructions, and of course the issue of colour blindness etc... But the choosing a good info thing has been done in a number of other threads.


Plus fog

I once road a 200 organised by Rocco. The info control was 'what's the colour of the building at km...'. Dense fog so I entered 'battleship grey'
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: JohnL on 27 September, 2019, 10:53:41 am
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.


Just under 90 minutes based on the RUSA calculator. For an 0900 start, they have to be there from 0935 until 1100...

J

I think (although may have misremembered this) that RUSA have a complicated formula for their first few control closing times so that you can still get to the first controls at a reasonable pace if you’ve started late.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 27 September, 2019, 10:53:48 am


I once road a 200 organised by Rocco. The info control was 'what's the colour of the building at km...'. Dense fog so I entered 'battleship grey'

It is a stupid question to ask in an Info control, seeing that colour blindness is more common than people think
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 September, 2019, 10:58:06 am
It is a stupid question to ask in an Info control, seeing that colour blindness is more common than people think

Not to mention the way men and women think about colour differently:

https://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/

I'd say it's a grey area, but having read Randall's work, I'm not sure what grey is anymore...

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: De Sisti on 27 September, 2019, 11:42:50 am


I once road a 200 organised by Rocco. The info control was 'what's the colour of the building at km...'. Dense fog so I entered 'battleship grey'

It is a stupid question to ask in an Info control, seeing that colour blindness is more common than people think
Does it really matter, so long as it's answered in good faith?
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: bludger on 27 September, 2019, 11:47:42 am
I had to do an info control in Flemish once - ran it through google translate and it came out as 'the name of the old timer on the door'. Got to the place but was none the wiser as to what it meant.

Apparently it was the number plate of a photo of an old car on the door of the café, the organiser sympathised and stamped me.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 September, 2019, 12:21:21 pm
I had to do an info control in Flemish once - ran it through google translate and it came out as 'the name of the old timer on the door'. Got to the place but was none the wiser as to what it meant.

Apparently it was the number plate of a photo of an old car on the door of the café, the organiser sympathised and stamped me.

Yeah, this is the problem with info controls. At least for the Dutch events a question needs to be in Dutch, German, and English, just because we have such an international mix on our rides. When I've been in doubt at an info location, I've taken a photo of the location as an additional backup.

It always amazes me the number of info controls on AUK events. I've only had 3 across the events I've done in NL/DK/BE. Had a few photo controls tho...

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 27 September, 2019, 12:22:14 pm

Does it really matter, so long as it's answered in good faith?

In good faith, we can agree that such info is redundant
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 27 September, 2019, 12:25:15 pm


It always amazes me the number of info controls on AUK events. I've only had 3 across the events I've done in NL/DK/BE. Had a few photo controls tho...

J

Nobody wants them... they are only required to make sure the minimum path between controls is in the 200 km ballpark. It might be that in other countries organisers use more main/straight roads and there is less need for infos
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 September, 2019, 12:26:18 pm

Nobody wants them... they are only required to make sure the minimum path between controls is in the 200 km ballpark. It might be that in other countries organisers use more main/straight roads and there is less need for infos

Nah, we just do mandatory route... There may be a secret control on any event we do.

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: bludger on 27 September, 2019, 12:30:03 pm
I think my ride might have a secret control - I really don't want to have many infos, so hopefully the 'there may be a secret control' promise should satisfy the validation panel that the riders won't be tempted to take short cuts.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Greenbank on 27 September, 2019, 12:34:40 pm

Does it really matter, so long as it's answered in good faith?

In good faith, we can agree that such info is redundant

Trust, but verify.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Manotea on 27 September, 2019, 01:59:11 pm
I don't see infos as good or bad; they are simply part of the event, and therefore, part of the fun.

There was interest in the Anfractous becoming the AAAnfractous, which was done but at the cost of adding a couple of infos to an event that already had infos. Number of complaints after five years or so, zero.

I guess it helps those infos are at the top of hills and most riders are ready for a breather...

The larger question is whether you'd rather have an event with infos or not have an event?

Having said this as an org it makes my life much simpler if I can do without them... the answer to that is in my hands though sometimes my hands are tied by geography.

Before anybody checks, the AAAnfractous isn't running this year, however the number of infos is not a factor in that.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Kim on 27 September, 2019, 02:04:19 pm
I guess it helps those infos are at the top of hills and most riders are ready for a breather...

That and infos at the top of hills to force you to climb them tend to be easier to find.  Though the exceptions tend to get filed under "well I'm not going back down there to look".
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 27 September, 2019, 02:12:28 pm
I think my ride might have a secret control - I really don't want to have many infos, so hopefully the 'there may be a secret control' promise should satisfy the validation panel that the riders won't be tempted to take short cuts.

I would be surprised if your local area supervisor would allow you to get away with a "secret control" in place of a no. of infos for your first event, but keep us posted, it might become a convenient shortcut* when planning troublesome routes

* I have the feeling most secret control are actually bollox and are not patrolled
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 September, 2019, 02:38:55 pm
The larger question is whether you'd rather have an event with infos or not have an event?

Having said this as an org it makes my life much simpler if I can do without them... the answer to that is in my hands though sometimes my hands are tied by geography.

This argument was done to near death in the thread on Infos; as Bairn Again and I pointed out, you need infos to keep riders off certain roads since the law doesn't (A9 and A90)

Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 September, 2019, 03:37:47 pm
This argument was done to near death in the thread on Infos; as Bairn Again and I pointed out, you need infos to keep riders off certain roads since the law doesn't (A9 and A90)

Or you just make it mandatory route...

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 27 September, 2019, 03:49:48 pm
It always amazes me the number of info controls on AUK events. I've only had 3 across the events I've done in NL/DK/BE. Had a few photo controls tho...

J

Purely a symptom of advisory routes, and a web of lanes. Make an event mandatory route and many of the Infos could be ditched.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 27 September, 2019, 04:32:06 pm

Or you just make it mandatory route...

J

It's not simple. To have a point, a secret control needs to be quite late in the ride... if it's too early, then riders will just shortcut from there. If it's late, then you need someone to stay in one spot for hours, which is a joyless task, let's face it.

If you just threaten but then don't actually have a secret control, you are just creating problems down the line and for other organisers
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: bludger on 27 September, 2019, 04:54:11 pm
I've definitely seen 'there may be secret controls' before e.g. http://audaxclubhackney.co.uk/events/the-shark/ .
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 September, 2019, 04:55:31 pm
It is a stupid question to ask in an Info control, seeing that colour blindness is more common than people think

Not to mention the way men and women think about colour differently:

https://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/

I'd say it's a grey area, but having read Randall's work, I'm not sure what grey is anymore...

J
By sheer coincidence, my son has just described to me why colour blindness affects men more than women. It's because the Y chromosome is smaller and lighter than the X chromosome(which is why for every 100 baby girls born there are 102 baby boys) and one of the pieces it lacks is the gene that controls colour vision. Colour blindness is recessive, so girls inherit two copies and are thus more likely to get a recessive gene overridden by the other X, whereas boys only get one copy.

Another thing affecting the way we perceive colour is our language; different languages have different numbers of words (basic words like green and blue, not tints like aquamarine and emerald) for colours. Although of course that's only perception in a conscious descriptive sense, not the eye's function.

But none of this really matters for info controls. If you're colour blind, just state what it looks like to you. An organiser who quibbles about it – I doubt very much if any do – might be worth avoiding anyway.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: jsabine on 27 September, 2019, 05:10:42 pm

Or you just make it mandatory route...

J

It's not simple. To have a point, a secret control needs to be quite late in the ride... if it's too early, then riders will just shortcut from there. If it's late, then you need someone to stay in one spot for hours, which is a joyless task, let's face it.

If you just threaten but then don't actually have a secret control, you are just creating problems down the line and for other organisers

I don't get either of your points - a secret control early in the ride does not preclude there also being one (or more) later on.

Equally, why does saying that there 'may' be one or more secret controls, and then not actually having any create any problems for you or subsequent organisers? It doesn't create any sort of binding precedent.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 27 September, 2019, 05:12:46 pm
I've definitely seen 'there may be secret controls' before e.g. http://audaxclubhackney.co.uk/events/the-shark/ .

Mandatory route. You can't have secret controls on an advisory, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: grams on 27 September, 2019, 05:35:25 pm
I’ve had info controls written in by organisers/controllers*, and sharing of “missed” infos is pretty rampant amongst riders. The idea that they keep people honest in a way that the possibility of secret controls doesn’t seems pretty dubious.

(* I take photos and write them in at the finish, so they’re blank before then)
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Ian H on 27 September, 2019, 05:41:08 pm
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 September, 2019, 05:43:21 pm

Or you just make it mandatory route...

J

It's not simple. To have a point, a secret control needs to be quite late in the ride... if it's too early, then riders will just shortcut from there. If it's late, then you need someone to stay in one spot for hours, which is a joyless task, let's face it.

If you just threaten but then don't actually have a secret control, you are just creating problems down the line and for other organisers

You also need enough volunteers, very few of the other Scottish rides I did this year had organizers anywhere other than the HQ.
Tour of East Lothian had club members at each control, including the top of the redstane ride
The organizers of Hellfire Corner and NCC600 was able to work the controls with 2 control teams. (I didn't ride either)
Bairn Again was able to provide 1 manned intermediate control on the Auld Alliance, and that was him...
Argyll Alps, thanks to the layout of the roads on Cowl, the organizer was able to get to the top of the Rest and Be Thankfull before any riders got there, wait for the stragglers to get to the top and blast along to the Ballochindrain, by the time the last riders were through there he needed to hot foot it back to the ferry.

In some areas to have full manning of controls and secrets, you'd have a bigger Helpers ride than actual ride.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 September, 2019, 06:04:55 pm

You also need enough volunteers, very few of the other Scottish rides I did this year had organizers anywhere other than the HQ.
Tour of East Lothian had club members at each control, including the top of the redstane ride
The organizers of Hellfire Corner and NCC600 was able to work the controls with 2 control teams. (I didn't ride either)
Bairn Again was able to provide 1 manned intermediate control on the Auld Alliance, and that was him...
Argyll Alps, thanks to the layout of the roads on Cowl, the organizer was able to get to the top of the Rest and Be Thankfull before any riders got there, wait for the stragglers to get to the top and blast along to the Ballochindrain, by the time the last riders were through there he needed to hot foot it back to the ferry.

In some areas to have full manning of controls and secrets, you'd have a bigger Helpers ride than actual ride.

For the event I'm organising we have a team of 2, and are looking for fully crewed start, finish, and one of the intermediate controls.

For an event where we hope to have 50+ riders.

Some of the comments on here about secret controls make me want to put a secret control outside of the arrivee...

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: grams on 27 September, 2019, 06:12:03 pm
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

There’s always a secret control around the next corner, so job done.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 27 September, 2019, 06:22:25 pm
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

But isn't shortest distance calculated differently for mandatory? The defined route dictates the distance not min distance between controls. So you can define your event route , then place controls at suitable distances along it.  Whereas with advisory; infos often turn up in an effort to hit the minimum distance but the advised route is plenty over the min distance.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Ian H on 27 September, 2019, 08:23:23 pm
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

But isn't shortest distance calculated differently for mandatory? The defined route dictates the distance not min distance between controls. So you can define your event route , then place controls at suitable distances along it.  Whereas with advisory; infos often turn up in an effort to hit the minimum distance but the advised route is plenty over the min distance.

No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 27 September, 2019, 08:26:33 pm


Equally, why does saying that there 'may' be one or more secret controls, and then not actually having any create any problems for you or subsequent organisers? It doesn't create any sort of binding precedent.

If unmanned secret controls became the norm, then I argue that even validation loses completely its point. As Ian says above, a mandatory route is not a good reason for poor practice
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 September, 2019, 10:41:00 pm
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

But isn't shortest distance calculated differently for mandatory? The defined route dictates the distance not min distance between controls. So you can define your event route , then place controls at suitable distances along it.  Whereas with advisory; infos often turn up in an effort to hit the minimum distance but the advised route is plenty over the min distance.

No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.
I'm not sure I understand that. I can see that if you have a mandatory route you need controls to make sure people follow that route. So what does 'shortest route' refer to in the case of a mandatory route? Surely the idea of mandatory is that you have to follow the route as specified, anything else should not, strictly, be validated?
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: S2L on 28 September, 2019, 07:23:27 am

I'm not sure I understand that. I can see that if you have a mandatory route you need controls to make sure people follow that route. So what does 'shortest route' refer to in the case of a mandatory route? Surely the idea of mandatory is that you have to follow the route as specified, anything else should not, strictly, be validated?

What he means is that you can't polish up a badly thought out route with the "mandatory route" sticker. If the route has too many "sections" that can be avoided by taking a different (and shorter) route, then the threat of one secret control is not good enough and either there are proper controls or the route needs a rethink
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: grams on 28 September, 2019, 08:11:24 am
It’s a bit early in the day to be hurling insults at other organisers, isn’t it?
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 September, 2019, 08:23:28 am
If unmanned secret controls became the norm, then I argue that even validation loses completely its point. As Ian says above, a mandatory route is not a good reason for poor practice

How exactly does an uncrewed* secret control work?

If its secret, then the riders don't know it's happening until they see the big sign by the road, and someone trying to flag them down.

Isn't that just a convoluted way of doing an info?

J

*Any control where I'm the sole controller is likely to be unmanned, but it won't be uncrewed...
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 28 September, 2019, 09:55:08 am
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

But isn't shortest distance calculated differently for mandatory? The defined route dictates the distance not min distance between controls. So you can define your event route , then place controls at suitable distances along it.  Whereas with advisory; infos often turn up in an effort to hit the minimum distance but the advised route is plenty over the min distance.

No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.

Ok, I'll probably convert a full control into an info (on one of my events)  in that case as mandatory doesn't seem to offer any advantages unless I have lots of volunteers to man secret controls. I thought it'd be the same as DIY mandatory where distance is based on the mandatory route.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 28 September, 2019, 10:04:40 am
If unmanned secret controls became the norm, then I argue that even validation loses completely its point. As Ian says above, a mandatory route is not a good reason for poor practice

How exactly does an uncrewed* secret control work?

If its secret, then the riders don't know it's happening until they see the big sign by the road, and someone trying to flag them down.

Isn't that just a convoluted way of doing an info?


I guess it's exact location won't be known, like an info location is (yeah I know). So you could say there are unmanned secret controls where we've placed signs with bright green backgrounds. Please record the letter on the sign, but we won't tell you where they are.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Manotea on 28 September, 2019, 10:04:47 am
A secret info? I like it! Don't tell 'em your name, Pike!

I mostly set events to Mandatory to make it clear that it is expected that the published route will be followed...


Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Paul H on 28 September, 2019, 11:45:06 am
I'm all for mandatory routes to keep riders off sections of road the organiser deems unfit to ride, but if they're being used as an alternative to infos, then swapping the freedom of an advisory route for them seems a poor trade.  I've been on plenty of rides where different riders will choose their own route for their own reasons, no route is going to please them all and part of the pleasure is that you can make it what you want. I'll even make changes as I go depending on the weather, time of day, how I'm doing for time.  Or even detour for a cafe, shop, something of interest or BCQ point.  I rarely deviate from the route because another is quicker, but there's some events where that quicker route is at least as popular and it'd be a shame if there wasn't the choice.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 September, 2019, 01:29:19 pm
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

But isn't shortest distance calculated differently for mandatory? The defined route dictates the distance not min distance between controls. So you can define your event route , then place controls at suitable distances along it.  Whereas with advisory; infos often turn up in an effort to hit the minimum distance but the advised route is plenty over the min distance.

No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.

Ok, I'll probably convert a full control into an info (on one of my events)  in that case as mandatory doesn't seem to offer any advantages unless I have lots of volunteers to man secret controls. I thought it'd be the same as DIY mandatory where distance is based on the mandatory route.
This is the bit that's puzzling me.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: grams on 29 September, 2019, 11:25:31 am
No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.

My understanding of continental events is that the controls are there to prove you got round, and the minimum distance between them can be much less than the length of the event*. Taking shortcuts has to filed in the general category of cheating (alongside taking a train/car/ebike/hovercraft) and beyond what controls are there to enforce.

Fretting over MDBC seems to be an AUK invention for the "advisory route" system and shouldn't be carried over to mandatory route events.

(* just checked PBP for my own amusement. It's 1088 km MDBC on ViaMichelin cycling, probably even less by other means)
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 29 September, 2019, 11:28:47 am

Ok, I'll probably convert a full control into an info (on one of my events)  in that case as mandatory doesn't seem to offer any advantages unless I have lots of volunteers to man secret controls. I thought it'd be the same as DIY mandatory where distance is based on the mandatory route.

Why do you need so many secret controls?


My understanding of continental events is that the controls are there to prove you got round, and the minimum distance between them can be much less than the length of the event*. Taking shortcuts has to filed in the general category of cheating (alongside taking a train/car/ebike/hovercraft) and beyond what controls are there to enforce.

Fretting over MDBC seems to be an AUK invention for the "advisory route" system and shouldn't be carried over to mandatory route events.

(* just checked PBP for my own amusement. It's 1088 km MDBC on ViaMichelin cycling, probably even less by other means)

Yep, that certainly matches my experience. Randonneurs NL also double check the strava logs too. But they aren't totally anal about it. On the Bunnik 200 in January, I rode along the opposite bank of a river for abour 20km, to bag a tile. It's close enough to the route that they were happy.

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 29 September, 2019, 01:06:30 pm


Why do you need so many secret controls?


Volunteers not controls. If you have a secret control towards one end or the other of an event then you wouldn't expect a single volunteer to remain there for a number of hours. The number of volunteers is more about the number of hours you'd need to cover not the number of secret controls.

If you have a route with a big hill with good views you can of course sit at the top and see riders coming from a long time away.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: frankly frankie on 29 September, 2019, 01:48:25 pm
It's not simple. To have a point, a secret control needs to be quite late in the ride... if it's too early, then riders will just shortcut from there. If it's late, then you need someone to stay in one spot for hours, which is a joyless task, let's face it.

If you just threaten but then don't actually have a secret control, you are just creating problems down the line and for other organisers
I don't get either of your points - a secret control early in the ride does not preclude there also being one (or more) later on.

Equally, why does saying that there 'may' be one or more secret controls, and then not actually having any create any problems for you or subsequent organisers? It doesn't create any sort of binding precedent.

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 29 September, 2019, 01:49:54 pm

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.

What is a virtual secret control?

J
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Phil W on 29 September, 2019, 07:42:27 pm

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.

What is a virtual secret control?

J

One you are told exists but in reality doesn't.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Wobbly on 29 September, 2019, 08:20:33 pm
One you are told exists but in reality doesn't.

 ;D
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: Ivan on 29 September, 2019, 09:45:07 pm
I've definitely seen 'there may be secret controls' before e.g. http://audaxclubhackney.co.uk/events/the-shark/ .

This year, I did have a secret control on The Shark, located about 0.001km from the Arrivée at the other end of the table.
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: jsabine on 30 September, 2019, 12:57:19 am
It's not simple. To have a point, a secret control needs to be quite late in the ride... if it's too early, then riders will just shortcut from there. If it's late, then you need someone to stay in one spot for hours, which is a joyless task, let's face it.

If you just threaten but then don't actually have a secret control, you are just creating problems down the line and for other organisers
I don't get either of your points - a secret control early in the ride does not preclude there also being one (or more) later on.

Equally, why does saying that there 'may' be one or more secret controls, and then not actually having any create any problems for you or subsequent organisers? It doesn't create any sort of binding precedent.

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.

I've only once felt peeved about the presence or absence of a secret control, on the Mile Failte in 2014. Second night, I think, 2 or 3 or 4 in the morning, I was knackered and, spying a pub bench outside a petrol station, lay down for a distinctly chilly and unrestful half hour of shut-eye (it cannot be dignified with the name of sleep).

After I willingly got up, but reluctantly set off, about 3km up the road somebody leapt out and shouted 'secret control!'

Church hall. Soup. Sandwiches. Tea.

If they'd had blankets or central heating I'd probably have throttled them - as it was, it wasn't significantly warmer than the bench had been, so I managed to smile ...
Title: Re: How many controls for a 200?
Post by: bludger on 30 September, 2019, 10:10:51 am
I've definitely seen 'there may be secret controls' before e.g. http://audaxclubhackney.co.uk/events/the-shark/ .

This year, I did have a secret control on The Shark, located about 0.001km from the Arrivée at the other end of the table.
Ha! I had to miss it but a friend did it - I didn't know about this  ;D