Author Topic: Random audax questions  (Read 391083 times)

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1175 on: 26 November, 2018, 09:03:46 am »
Does anyone have figures for the number of people who have died while participating in recent editions of PBP?  I know of 2 this century.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1176 on: 26 November, 2018, 09:22:35 am »
During PBP only or also dying later as a result of injuries sustained during PBP? The total since PBP began is in single figures.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1177 on: 26 November, 2018, 09:46:33 am »
During PBP only or also dying later as a result of injuries sustained during PBP? The total since PBP began is in single figures.

During or later as a result.  I guess the legal "year-and-a-day" criterion could apply.  Do you know the numbers?  I'd be happy to find an authoritative source for 2003 and later.  I only know of two and I hope there are no more than two.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1178 on: 26 November, 2018, 10:34:22 am »
Have look at topic 1200 on YACF. It lists all of the PBPers that I know of who have died as a result of PBP crashes. From memory, there are about five PBPers, which is pretty low considering the number of entrants, the duration of the event and how many years PBP has been running for.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1179 on: 26 November, 2018, 10:51:42 am »
Have look at topic 1200 on YACF. It lists all of the PBPers that I know of who have died as a result of PBP crashes. From memory, there are about five PBPers, which is pretty low considering the number of entrants, the duration of the event and how many years PBP has been running for.

Thank you very much.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1180 on: 26 November, 2018, 09:19:18 pm »
Actually 6 PBPers have died from crashes during the event, usually with motor vehicles. 1 in 1961, 1 in 1966, 2 in 1975, 1 in 2007 (after the event) and 1 in 2011.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1181 on: 26 November, 2018, 10:01:31 pm »
Can you ECE an arrow?

It has been done: http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2017/listride/?Rider=14766
An interesting season - if I'm reading it right, Mr Gee only does 600s between December and Easter.

His season didn't go entirely to plan.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1182 on: 07 December, 2018, 02:37:27 pm »
Question about validating permanents from an organiser's perspective:

Where do I find the online start/finish list for my perm? I can't see a link to it on the organiser's section of the (old) website.

I've also emailed the perms sec about this, so may well get clarification from him soon.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1183 on: 07 December, 2018, 05:19:17 pm »
Where do I find the online start/finish list for my perm? I can't see a link to it on the organiser's section of the (old) website..

(Just in case this helps:) I'd expect it to come up when you click "organisers" on the homepage menu... but that's probably what you've tried already.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1184 on: 07 December, 2018, 05:40:15 pm »
Yes, I can see the event listed there (along with my calendar events) but no obvious link to the start/finish list.

I’m new to organising perms and I’ve just had cards back from my first two riders. I’m sure all will become clear soon...
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1185 on: 07 December, 2018, 06:06:40 pm »
Hmm. I thought you might get "update rider list" offered next to each of them. That's just for DIYs then.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1186 on: 07 December, 2018, 08:00:24 pm »
Hmm. I thought you might get "update rider list" offered next to each of them.

That’s the kind of thing I would expect to see, but it ain’t there.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1187 on: 07 December, 2018, 08:13:11 pm »
Ah, new perm org syndrome.  your perms have to be validated by the permsec. you submit them for validation by post.

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1188 on: 17 December, 2018, 10:58:36 am »
Jeez, one rider has qualified for R5000 already (and all in 200s). Respect.
Eddington Number = 132

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1189 on: 17 December, 2018, 11:56:58 am »
+1!

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1190 on: 17 December, 2018, 01:03:14 pm »
Actually 6 PBPers have died from crashes during the event, usually with motor vehicles. 1 in 1961, 1 in 1966, 2 in 1975, 1 in 2007 (after the event) and 1 in 2011.

So 4 PBPs, averaging 5000 riders averaging 1200km (I know some rough estimates but this is an order of magnitude question) - that 24m kilometres for 2 fatalities or 12m km (7.5m miles) per fatality.

There are 30m cars in the UK and approximately 1500 annual fatalities.  According to the RAC the average distance driven is 12,000km (they had 7800 miles in 2017 and reducing).  So that's 240m km per fatality - so per km you are 20 times more likely to die riding PBP than driving a car in the UK.  However, for every road fatality, there's approximately 15 severe (life-changing injuries).  I don't know what the stats are in PBP in that category but would suspect that it's lower. 



Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 571 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1191 on: 17 December, 2018, 02:16:14 pm »
One PBP death was several months after the event, so I'm not sure if it 'officially' counts.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1192 on: 17 December, 2018, 02:56:54 pm »
There are 29.5 cyclist deaths per billion miles on UK roads (2016 figures) which translates to one death per 34 million miles, or 56 million km.

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1193 on: 17 December, 2018, 03:05:47 pm »
So 4 PBPs, averaging 5000 riders averaging 1200km (I know some rough estimates but this is an order of magnitude question) - that 24m kilometres for 2 fatalities or 12m km (7.5m miles) per fatality.

If we assume no one died on the PBPs not mentioned, surely we need to include those in the multiplication too?

Otherwise you've calculated "risk of dying on a PBP where somebody died".

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1194 on: 17 December, 2018, 06:40:30 pm »
I assume that we're not counting PBP deaths from natural causes. Heart attacks have taken at least two.

However, you're much likelier to be attended by a medical professional on PBP than on a general ride. You're never very far from a doctor.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1195 on: 17 December, 2018, 06:42:08 pm »
So 4 PBPs, averaging 5000 riders averaging 1200km (I know some rough estimates but this is an order of magnitude question) - that 24m kilometres for 2 fatalities or 12m km (7.5m miles) per fatality.

If we assume no one died on the PBPs not mentioned, surely we need to include those in the multiplication too?

Otherwise you've calculated "risk of dying on a PBP where somebody died".
Excellent statto point there  :thumbsup:

(although when we recalculate this properly, there will be a counter-effect from the fact that - IIRC - those events back in the 60s-70s had a lot less than 5000 riders. )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1196 on: 30 December, 2018, 09:10:04 am »
Am I right in thinking that the only permanents that count towards ACP Randonneur 5000/10000 are a) Super Radonnees (which exist in various countries) and b) Flèches de France (for which there is no international equivalent)?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1197 on: 30 December, 2018, 09:56:54 am »
Yes
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1198 on: 31 December, 2018, 11:28:20 am »
Ah, new perm org syndrome.  your perms have to be validated by the permsec. you submit them for validation by post.

This was my initial thought, but it doesn't really add up - this is what it says in the Notes For Organisers document that the PermSec sends out:

"Start / Finish list
There is a Start / Finish list on your organiser page..."

No, there isn't. It's not just that I can't edit the list, there is no list at all - or at least no link to the list. It makes no sense to me that an org wouldn't be able to see the start/finish list for their own event and sounds more like the result of a glitch in the system than nannying of a new org.

"Completed brevet cards
Brevet cards should be returned by entrants to be received by you within 14 days of the event.
When brevet cards are returned to you check that:
...
Then add the event date to the on-line Start / Finish list and click on “Update”. This will automatically
send the details to the Permanents Secretary as a provisional validation"

Can't add details to a non-existent list, can I?

I understand the principle that new perm organisers may be regarded as needing a bit of supervision (even if they have previously organised calendar events) and that cards should be sent off for validation, but I'm allowed to add entrants and results for my calendar event so why not my perm? So far, all the entrants I've had have been via paypal so should be added to the start list automatically, but what happens if I get a postal entry? Should I forward the entry form to PermSec so he can enter the details manually himself? That's insane. If he wants to make unnecessary extra work for himself, that's his prerogative but I don't get it.

Anyway, I sent off a couple of cards for validation at the start of December and emailed PermSec to ask for clarification on this but have yet to receive a response - and I can't see the results online so he hasn't entered them himself. I'm sure it's just a case that he's busy with other things and may have a backlog of cards to process but it's a bit frustrating.

Is this a typical experience for a new perm organiser? Any other new perm organisers unable to see their start/finish list?

ETA: I've checked with the riders and at least one of them has had his validated card returned, which is good, but the results are not online.

ETA2: It also looks like the results from the 2017 edition of my calendar event have been scrubbed from the system as well. I no longer have a 'View results' link on my organiser page, just a 'View finish list' link, which takes me to an empty page. And the event doesn't appear in the full list of 2017 results. This is mildly infuriating.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #1199 on: 31 December, 2018, 05:54:38 pm »
Does this list your finishers?

http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2018/events/?Type=Permanent&Combined=false

(adjust for 2017 if required!)

(my experience is that perms use a totally different system to calendar events - best not to assume otherwise!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles