Bridge as a Sport

[Ben T]

I would rather see chess and bridge in the Olympics than wrestling, I mean ffs 

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

The distinction between game and sport is the point. The response flows from that. Sport England shouldn't support a game, only sports.

I wholeheartedly disagree. That is giving some areas of competition an undeserved elevated status over others.

Some people, for whatever reason, don't take well to physical "sports". There is no reason why physical competition should be given an artificial elitism over mental competition. I sincerely hope the EBU's judicial review is successful.

You're the one  who sees it as elitism and an elevated status. Nobody's saying actual sports are better than games. They're different. Lobby the government to set up a non-physical competitive games council if you like, but don't try to pretend board games and card games are sports.

[Wowbagger]

I would rather see chess and bridge in the Olympics than wrestling, I mean ffs 

Chess and bridge are already recognised as sports by the IOC. I don't expect chess to feature at the olympics as it already has its own Olympiad. It is held every two years.

The first Olympiad was unofficial. For the 1924 Olympics an attempt was made to include chess in the Olympic Games but this failed because of problems with distinguishing between amateur and professional players. While the 1924 Summer Olympics was taking place in Paris, the 1st unofficial Chess Olympiad also took place in Paris. FIDE was formed on Sunday, July 20, 1924, the closing day of the 1st unofficial Chess Olympiad.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_Olympiad#Birth_of_the_Olympiad refers

[bikenrrd]

If you permit chess and bridge to receive funding from Sport England, then where do you stop in permitting other mind games?

Scrabble?
Monopoly?
Game of Life?
Mathletics?
University Challenge / Pointless / Only Connect?

[Wowbagger]

I wouldn't include proprietary brands. Chess has been part of civilisation for getting on for 1000 years, and I suspect a lot longer than that. "Western" chess has been played in Europe with few changes since about 1500.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Why would bridge and chess players want their activity to be classed as a sport rather than a game? Clearly in this particular case the Bridge Union are after funding, but more widely, I think it is right to say there's elitism in considering a physical sport more worthwhile than a mental game - perhaps this can be traced to Dr Arnold, although he was a doctor - and a snobbery of the mental competitor looking down on the physical. There are probably good reasons for funding both physical and mental hobbies and competitions (of course most physical sports, especially team games, involve a mental element too), but with obesity NHS school playing fields austerity etc, probably more for the physical.

[Jacomus]

Given the difficulty virtual impossiblity of getting Sport England to do anything for Roller Derby, which is a contact sport with a fully developed league and World Championship structure, Bridge/Chess could be barking up the wrong tree regardless of the semantics of calling them a sport.

[mattc]

Why would bridge and chess players want their activity to be classed as a sport rather than a game? Clearly in this particular case the Bridge Union are after funding, but more widely, I think it is right to say there's elitism in considering a physical sport more worthwhile than a mental game - perhaps this can be traced to Dr Arnold, although he was a doctor - and a snobbery of the mental competitor looking down on the physical. There are probably good reasons for funding both physical and mental hobbies and competitions (of course most physical sports, especially team games, involve a mental element too), but with obesity NHS school playing fields austerity etc, probably more for the physical.

Finally - someone's mentioned the health benefits!

Board games have many benefits - but getting kids out into the fresh air, ideally running around, is a lot more important at the moment.

[Wowbagger]

Why would bridge and chess players want their activity to be classed as a sport rather than a game? Clearly in this particular case the Bridge Union are after funding, but more widely, I think it is right to say there's elitism in considering a physical sport more worthwhile than a mental game - perhaps this can be traced to Dr Arnold, although he was a doctor - and a snobbery of the mental competitor looking down on the physical. There are probably good reasons for funding both physical and mental hobbies and competitions (of course most physical sports, especially team games, involve a mental element too), but with obesity NHS school playing fields austerity etc, probably more for the physical.

Finally - someone's mentioned the health benefits!

Board games have many benefits - but getting kids out into the fresh air, ideally running around, is a lot more important at the moment.

Darts, snooker, rifle shooting, boxing...

There is a lot of recognition in educational circles that of all the pastimes/games/sports that a child can learn, chess has the most obvious transferable benefits. Admittedly, it's also in the best position of pretty well all such activities, because educationalists do like to see kids thinking. So far as I am aware, no control studies have been carried out to see whether shoot-'em-up computer games have similar, or other, benefits, but the idea would be a lot harder to "sell" to primary school head teachers. FWIW, when my son was teaching undergraduates he was bemused that they should be daunted by the sheer length of a 3-hour exam. He had been playing in chess games that occasionally exceeded that duration since he was in primary school so they held no fear for him.

[pcolbeck]

No ones arguing that chess isn't a great game nor that it doesn't develop useful skills just that it isn't a sport.

[Tewdric]

This particular troll might be a nice, friendly one, but I, for one, won't be feeding him!

[mattc]

Why would bridge and chess players want their activity to be classed as a sport rather than a game? Clearly in this particular case the Bridge Union are after funding, but more widely, I think it is right to say there's elitism in considering a physical sport more worthwhile than a mental game - perhaps this can be traced to Dr Arnold, although he was a doctor - and a snobbery of the mental competitor looking down on the physical. There are probably good reasons for funding both physical and mental hobbies and competitions (of course most physical sports, especially team games, involve a mental element too), but with obesity NHS school playing fields austerity etc, probably more for the physical.

Finally - someone's mentioned the health benefits!

Board games have many benefits - but getting kids out into the fresh air, ideally running around, is a lot more important at the moment.

Darts, snooker, rifle shooting, boxing...

... go on ... I can't wait to see ...     the conclusion of ...  this great insight ...

[T42]

Sports are a fuzzy subset of games.  The fuzz reflects the degree of physical engagement.

[Peter]

Fuzz doesn't reflect anything (Word-game/sport)!

[Ben T]

If you accept the argument that bridge isn't a sport because it's purely mental, then is poker a sport?
It can be played on the internet which is all about the decision of what to do rather than the actual doing of it, but when played round a table, muscle use (or lack thereof) could be said to be part of the skill.

[Jaded]

Thinking about what you say there, there are other things that you can play on the internet that do involve muscle, and in fact some of them even have Sport in the name!

[Wowbagger]

I watched IM Andrew Martin, former British blitz chess champion (blitz is a time control of all moves in 5 minutes or less) playing on the internet -  he borrowed my computer. There is definitely a lot of hand-eye co-ordination going on there as, in order to save time, he anticipates his opponent's move and has the piece he is intending to move already "picked up" by the mouse and hovering over the square on which he intends to drop it. Reaction time is also critical at such fast time controls. If the opponent makes a move he doesn't expect and he has to change his mind, he has to ensure that the piece is returned to its original square.

[mattc]

This particular troll might be a nice, friendly one, but I, for one, won't be feeding him!

I can't decide - either he's  troll, or he's quite quite mad.

(this is a common problem - on the internet it can be hard to tell the difference.)

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

If you accept the argument that bridge isn't a sport because it's purely mental, then is poker a sport?
It can be played on the internet which is all about the decision of what to do rather than the actual doing of it, but when played round a table, muscle use (or lack thereof) could be said to be part of the skill.

No. All games require muscle control, even if all you're doing is using muscles to talk to play Botticelli or I-spy. (I'm a big fan of abstract I-spy. I spy with my little eye something beginning with S - Saturday! You can only do that on Saturdays though). And even if you're playing cards on the internet, you have to use muscles to place the cards via mouse or trackpad or eye-gaze controller.

[pcolbeck]

New definition of a game. If it can be played using nothing more than one or more computers linked together with no peripherals other than screen, keyboard and mouse or joystick its a game not a sport.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Except for Daley Thompson's Decathlon.

[pcolbeck]

Except for Daley Thompson's Decathlon.

I wonder how many keyboards that wore out.

[Ben T]

If you accept the argument that bridge isn't a sport because it's purely mental, then is poker a sport?
It can be played on the internet which is all about the decision of what to do rather than the actual doing of it, but when played round a table, muscle use (or lack thereof) could be said to be part of the skill.

No. All games require muscle control, even if all you're doing is using muscles to talk to play Botticelli or I-spy. (I'm a big fan of abstract I-spy. I spy with my little eye something beginning with S - Saturday! You can only do that on Saturdays though). And even if you're playing cards on the internet, you have to use muscles to place the cards via mouse or trackpad or eye-gaze controller.

You always require muscle use, yes, but the muscle use isn't always part of the skill.
For instance, in (normal) chess, moving the piece deftly and swiftly doesn't gain you any advantage over moving it clumsily. As long as you get it to the square you've decided to move it to, that's all that matters.
But in poker, the manner in which you place your bets contributes to your chances of winning as well as what you bet does. i.e. betting excitedly gives away information to your opponent, who is betting against not how strong your hand actually is, but how strong you think your hand is.

I watched IM Andrew Martin, former British blitz chess champion (blitz is a time control of all moves in 5 minutes or less) playing on the internet -  he borrowed my computer. There is definitely a lot of hand-eye co-ordination going on there as, in order to save time, he anticipates his opponent's move and has the piece he is intending to move already "picked up" by the mouse and hovering over the square on which he intends to drop it. Reaction time is also critical at such fast time controls. If the opponent makes a move he doesn't expect and he has to change his mind, he has to ensure that the piece is returned to its original square.

What if the software doesn't allow him to pick his piece up until after his opponent's moved, or does he always stipulate that they use software that allows him to do that?

[mattc]

Except for Daley Thompson's Decathlon.

By stating that the mouse-hand-eye co-ordination of his IM friend playing chess over the internet makes it a "sport",
Wow is just a small step away from demanding that Daley Thomson's Decathlon is included in the Olympics.

[Wowbagger]

I'm not that familiar with much chess-playing software, but Andy was using Winboard. The advantage of picking up his piece before his opponent had moved was purely to gain time.

In physical chess, given that tournament play requires clocks, then there is a definite advantage to physical dexterity in the placing of the pieces. If you are clumsy and you knock pieces over when you move they have to be replaced while your clock is ticking and that will be a disadvantage. Furthermore, you are obliged to move the piece and press the clock with the same hand, and a smooth, efficient hand movement will gain you quite a few seconds over a long game, which could prove critical.