Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: Ham on 19 November, 2020, 07:47:38 pm
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Anyone done this? While I don't think that it will work accurately to translate into moisture content, you should be able to get comparative readings from various points on the wall to build up a picture. I'm thinking of knocking a couple of masonry nails into a piece of wood to use as probes for consistency, using my old Fluke 29 Mk II which happily measures up to 10Mohm.
The objective is to intelligently challenge a damp survey which identified damp on an internal (party) wall but not on the external wall of Miss Ham's new abode (as of tomorrow). I suspect that damp, if present will have an alternative cause other than defective damp course which will be a pain to rectify on a party wall but is linked to a mortgage retention.
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If you are wanting to challenge an existing survey, rather than just mess around for your own fun, then I don't think there's much mileage in trying to calibrate a generic meter to dampness.
I think you'd need to use a recognised dampness meter.
If you want to mess around for fun, then I'd say knock yourself out.
I have no knowledge of how damp meters operate or are calibrated.
What voltages to they use?
Multimeters typically use pretty low voltages.
Insulation testers use hundreds of volts.
These will give different answers.
Presumably, dampness meters have some standard method which will use some certain voltage.
And then, what calibration curve to they use from resistance to dampness?
It may well not be linear.
So no, I don't think a simple fluke meter will be able to provide a body of evidence to be able to challenge an existing dampness report.
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"Challenge" might be too strong a word. The survey wasn't too bad and I've no reason to suppose they didn't find damp, and getting them to do the injection would be the easiest move. But. When I look at the area they have indicated as needing it, it looks to me that they have waved their meter around and assumed stuff that frankly doesn't make sense.
Picture shows the situation, entire rear part is "condemned" for rising damp. Not the rest of the party wall. Includes a ramshackle lean to that has may have rising but deffo has falling damp and is clearly going to be removed. There may be damp on the outside wall, for sure, but I reckon any damp on that interior wall is far more likely to be from the shower room, or penetrating from the lean to edge.
Not to scale ;D dots signify areas marked as having rising damp.
outside wall (end of terrace)
=============================
| |.................................................
| |======================
| |. |. |. |.<<Ramshackle lean to on end
| |. |. |. |.
| |. |. |. |. GARDEN
|
| | . | ....... ...... |.......... |.
|============================= | ==== == | ====|.
| | . | . Bath |.
| | . | . room |. GARDEN
| | . | . |.
==============================================
PARTY WALL (TERRACE) ....................................
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I have had some success using a multimeter to crudely map the edge of a damp patch, to determine whether it was expanding or retreating after the leaky roof had been fettled. I wouldn't rate it for much else.
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Presumably, dampness meters have some standard method which will use some certain voltage.
And then, what calibration curve to they use from resistance to dampness?
It may well not be linear.
The number of factors involved is huge - chemicals in the wall, temperature, etc etc but were I to square the wall off into 100mm squares and plot each one, I should get a good picture.... maybe. So summat like wot Kim says, but it would be nice if there was some kind of correlation of moisture to resistance that could be used to calibrate. I'm thinking of soaking a patch and waiting 30 minutes to get a 100% reading.
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I do not have the answer but this may be of interest. Long term denizens of this forum may remember the many pages of damp related woe I have posted. During this fun time in my life I bought a moisture meter.
After the works were finished I ended up as per the picture below:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8860/28692459931_288fb349c3.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KHsmH2)IMG_4576 (https://flic.kr/p/KHsmH2) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
The light stuff at the very top of the chimney breast is old lath & plaster wall with a fresh coat of dry lime plaster on it. At the bottom, round the stove is where the lath was removed, replaced with some sort of fireproof mineral board and then skimmed with fireproof plaster. There is nothing behind that board in contact with the stone wall behind it so there should not be any transfer of moisture in that direction. However ever since it was done the top section has read 'dry' while the bottom section has read 'damp'. (And indeed after I painted it all with Claypaint that whole bottom section is a different shade of colour than the rest of the room ::-) .)
So although I don't know what your daughter's wall is made of, from my own personal experience there is the possibility of (but not limited to):
Build up of lime plaster type debris at the bottom of the wall which is full of hygroscopic salts and will give a damp reading.
For example:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/660/21982262881_301f251788.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zuuQUr)IMG_2894 (https://flic.kr/p/zuuQUr) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Or - No debris but a previously damp wall now contaminated with hygroscopic salts which will always give a damp reading by adsorbing it from the atmosphere.
Or - A funny reading because the wall is made of an odd material.
I do think that mapping the readings on the wall is a good idea. If it seems like it's worst at the bottom of the wall you could make some exploratory holes in the plaster and see if there's a shit load of debris lurking there like there was at mine.
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Question - is there access under the floor?
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Ah yes - you had PHUN didn't you? This is somewhat different, I think. First off, completion is only at midday today (!! ;D ;D ) and examination has been limited during the pandemic (vendor is vulnerable) but even so. House is very much a "doer-upper" (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5522651,0.0314178,3a,75y,273.29h,91.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHxhw0l2Ed2yT0gAAjSR_Cg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (l/h of the two l-u-u-u-u-uvly examples of pebbledash), built around 1900, all the terrace have coal hole basements, the area sits on gravel and my experience from a mile away is that even with a flooding cellar (we have an underground river nearby) our party wall of a semi stays bone dry at the top. I simply don't believe this party wall has rising damp. I'll be looking and initial poking later. (wall is brick, London stocks)
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So, damp probe #1.
Stick the probes into a bit of wood that's been stored for years, open circuit, good. Drill then hammer in two masonry nails, connect up the meter, that'll be 14MΩ, thank you.
Damp probe #2
Use a plastic corner jointing block, drill, hammer, connect, open circuit, good.
Test by pushing into various walls. Discover that there is no apparent easy correlation. Very wet is something like 300kΩ or lower (about 2.5 cm separating). dry seems upward of 5MΩ. Stuff in between? who knows.
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Not massively helpful for mortgage purposes, but my experience of the 'damp proof' companies (one of the big national ones) is that they stick a probe on the wall, tell you that you certainly have rising damp, and charge to fix it, and when it comes back, stick a probe on the same walls and tell you that it's certainly not rising damp, and not their problem.
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Yes, that's what I read on the websites of heritage home specialists too.
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The text
Rising damp
Observations and conclusions
Inspection of the lower wall areas identified on the diagram below found damp staining and a deterioration of the decorations
consistent with rising damp. The plaster appears to be affected by hygroscopic ground salt (nitrate and chloride) contamination.
Moisture meter tests indicated dampness extends to a height of approximately 450mm.
The reality:
To be confirmed tomorrow, but it looks like the photo showing the probe being used was in the lean to, which leaks like a leaky sieve with leaks. Most of the areas shown on the diagram are either inaccessible (tiled, behind cabinets which weren't removed) or - according to my meter at least for the party wall - bone dry.
There will be words, come Monday.
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This might be worth a read.
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/the-ping-prong-meter-guilty-of-fraud.html
There are various other sites giving similar opinions.
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This might be worth a read.
https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/the-ping-prong-meter-guilty-of-fraud.html
There are various other sites giving similar opinions.
That's exactly the one I was thinking of upthread.
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That webpage is spot on. The thing actually measured is resistivity which is affected by lots of factors. Blindly following numbers for most materials without understanding the complexities will lead you up the garden path.
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I now know about Calcium Carbide sample meters..
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Ooh yes, this site is a nice explanation
https://www.completepreservation.co.uk/2020/06/01/calcium-carbide-meter-speedy-meter-test/
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Having done a few courses when I was an RICS surveyor. Those meters are pretty pointless without understanding the results.
Also rising damp is a myth, there are lots and lots of houses without a damp proof course and no moisture. If you really want to waste money, chemical damp proof courses are proof of snake oil.
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Yes, rising damp cons were discussed at length in the link ∆ damp problems being mainly down to condensation.
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Well, I trolled around poking a bit more today. The surveyor completely missed the area that was blown with paper falling off where the roof tiles were missing and water has been pissing in, as well as another bit of obvious damp on the flank wall, which turns out to be there neighbor roofing over the alley (theirs) and the run off from about 8m flooding down the wall.
Oh, and there is one bit of damp on the party wall, but at an of location which my guess the cause is, the neighbor's sink.
An interesting conversation to be had.
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Ha. Not surprised. Let's face it, the surveyor probably spends what, 30 mins on your average house survey?
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We found the Word template for our survey (seriously, you can buy a ready-to-compete house survey), a literal case of fill in the blanks. We filled out our own version with exciting stuff like 'beavers in the kitchen' (if we sell this place, we should include that). He was actually a nice and informative chap when we talked to him, but the actual survey (the basic building kind) was useless. I know you get what you pay for, but it still about £600.
(We found damp in the kitchen, but the cause was condensation behind kitchen units and a long-term leaking dishwasher connection).
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Yes, rising damp cons were discussed at length in the link ∆ damp problems being mainly down to condensation.
Condensation or water leaks.
Oh I had rising damp in a third floor flat.
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Ha. Not surprised. Let's face it, the surveyor probably spends what, 30 mins on your average house survey?
On a valuation survey they can even be a drive by.
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We found the Word template for our survey (seriously, you can buy a ready-to-compete house survey), a literal case of fill in the blanks. We filled out our own version with exciting stuff like 'beavers in the kitchen' (if we sell this place, we should include that). He was actually a nice and informative chap when we talked to him, but the actual survey (the basic building kind) was useless. I know you get what you pay for, but it still about £600.
(We found damp in the kitchen, but the cause was condensation behind kitchen units and a long-term leaking dishwasher connection).
The surveyor doesn't get £60, more the pity.
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I've changed the title of this thread, and for the hell of it if ICBA I'll post some of the stuff here and invite comment. There's lots. Miss Ham is documenting a la instagram here https://www.instagram.com/homeunderthehammonds/
Almost 100% stripped out now, here's one issue to deal with, at some point the previous occupants put in a rear door but didn't bother with a socking great hole in the roof letting in water, leading to a degree of rot. Internal timber lintel to be replaced with concrete
Straightforward, cut the bricks on the right, remove the rotten lintel, replace, rebrick if needed and job's a good'un
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ERDeDegOWJM/X8a1mk2QsGI/AAAAAAADYvk/Pm_7P6_tXiYJVYKJYAgQC22LcTClIqvDgCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201130_142226802.jpg)
How to deal with the artex-a-like everywhere is more of a problem
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-63gtk6v7olY/X8a2l-C0v0I/AAAAAAADYvw/S8W-3YOwT3gkRZZYtKU68fIbhqv5ibIIQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201125_181333271.jpg)
and uncovering and rectifying what they did to rip out the old box sash windows is another
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uxwpy91JKsM/X8a3A3qtuZI/AAAAAAADYv4/xRmMaJaGcrY5p_fuxslc_PbCAmRV-p-yQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201201_153636740.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M8R49k0LkNY/X8a3A6NrkRI/AAAAAAADYv4/ahg730v7JUU9mE7hLiyLw4Tl4gUT3XOQgCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201201_153430447.jpg)
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here's a question. The roof is a "London" roof - two roofs with a gulley down the middle. The parapet in the front is bowing in, and needs some form of stabilisation (or, taking down and rebuilding. Can be seen in the streetview photo (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5522651,0.0314178,3a,50y,266.59h,101.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHxhw0l2Ed2yT0gAAjSR_Cg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Any ideas? I was thinking, a lump of 6mm galvanised angle iron across the back, bolting through to a strap of 6mm in front.
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Be careful of the Artexy stuff.
Some of them contain asbestos.
I seem to remember you can get testing kits.
Google seems to agree.
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Not damp-related but, as a young Venture Scout, I was one of a group sent to do some decorating for an elderly lady in an end terrace. It was one of those where you open the front door and the stairs go straight up in front of you, so along the inside of that end-terrace wall. The landing then went round three sides of the stairs so, to work on the long-drop wall, we put stepladders at the top of the stairs and a plank across from the banisters behind. Not sure we could do that in these modern days of risk assessments, but nobody had heard of those then.
One of the lads was working up there, leaning on the wall, which he suddenly felt move. He got down sharpish, and we all rushed outside. There was an abandoned railway cutting behind the terrace and the wall, now that we looked at it, bowed outwards. We reckoned that years of rumbling trains had had an effect.
We never finished the wall.
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Be careful of the Artexy stuff.
Some of them contain asbestos.
I seem to remember you can get testing kits.
Google seems to agree.
Artex used the Asbestos as a bulking agent so very common.
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Would you like a hand?
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Hello Ham,
Re: The parapet wall. Can you post some pictures of the roof timber, especially the bit directly under the valley. From the inside preferably, unless you has X-ray speks.
Sounds like a nice little project and it should look lovely when finished.
Will you be replacing the ceilings with lath and plaster?
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And what's the roof covering ?
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Not damp-related but, as a young Venture Scout, I was one of a group sent to do some decorating for an elderly lady in an end terrace. It was one of those where you open the front door and the stairs go straight up in front of you, so along the inside of that end-terrace wall. The landing then went round three sides of the stairs so, to work on the long-drop wall, we put stepladders at the top of the stairs and a plank across from the banisters behind. Not sure we could do that in these modern days of risk assessments, but nobody had heard of those then.
One of the lads was working up there, leaning on the wall, which he suddenly felt move. He got down sharpish, and we all rushed outside. There was an abandoned railway cutting behind the terrace and the wall, now that we looked at it, bowed outwards. We reckoned that years of rumbling trains had had an effect.
We never finished the wall.
When I was a student in Manchester local houses were notorious for the end wall falling down. We rented one and there was quite a gap opened between stairs and wall. No passing trains luckily.
Did up my first house, 1905 terrace. Bought for £7,500, recently sold for £128,000. When I bought it a neighbour told me they'd been selling for under £1k not long before.
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Yes, the house I mentioned was in the Stockport area somewhere. Not sure where now, it was too long ago.
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Update. Work has been progressing, the impact of the extended leaking - which actually turned out to be (mostly?) due to to a blocked drain pipe has been....extended :(
The bedroom floor has been repaired, doubling up the joists with coach bolts/dogs in between and added structural screws. The joist between the partition wall dividing landing and bedroom wall (shown below) has been doubled, end to end
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u_TvkMKixTo/X-otfVWo55I/AAAAAAADY9I/muFVbz60rPEEAJj3p0YySfRV3QvBatSLgCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201223_172443679.jpg)
With water penetrating down the middle of the house for more years than I care to think about, the beam above the landing (above which is the double skin wall to the rear of the right front "london" roof segment) turned out to be completely rotten. On further investigation, I was less concerned as there is a strain relief arch, so it is not supporting anything more than the bricks below the arch. On further further examination, the bearing point on the supporting wall was buggered to all hell through the mortar disappearing and bricks going to buggery. Any premature removal of the wrong part seemed to engender a risk that the strain relief arch would fail, with corresponding amusement.
Current plan of record is to
(pre launch) hack off plaster and surround moving acrows around to allow support to continue
(a) mortar in the last brick in the arch which was removable by hand. Given the size of the bottom mortar wedge, I actually cut a wedge of engineering brick to increase its structural integrity. Wait to go off. (complete)
(b) hack out a segment of the rotten beam in the masonry, leaving the bit that seemed to be supporting a particularly loose brick, brick up the hole in the supporting wall tight to the loose brick so it has nowhere to go. (complete)
(c) hack out the last of the rotten wood, make good the hole left as a result.
(d) cut the rotten beam square, allowing an additional segment to be added (2 x scaffold board sections screwed together is the perfect size), with a 40mm x 3mm mild steel angle on both bottom sides, cut into the (now good) masonry. Not structural, but sufficient strength for the purpose.
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Hello Ham,
Re: The parapet wall. Can you post some pictures of the roof timber, especially the bit directly under the valley. From the inside preferably, unless you has X-ray speks.
Sounds like a nice little project and it should look lovely when finished.
Will you be replacing the ceilings with lath and plaster?
No, cost is king, in this instance.
I'll see what I can see of the central timber, not sure what the relevance is though?
The roof covering is tile to the front gully section, concrete tile to the rear pent bit.
SiL is temperamentally unsuited to anything that smacks of taking more time than absolutely necessary, as a result we have some challenges. He knows a good roofer (a mate) but he couldn't promise to do the work instantly. So, he went to another guy who he has a working relationship with who promised to do it immediately. It took him 4 weeks and +++ hassling to turn up. And he has turned out to be a roofer of the sort who habitually does what he thinks easiest because of course nobody sees his (team's) work . Except that makes no sense when you are working for a scaffolder and you have an ornery old sod who is quite happy scrabbling up a ladder. The main roof -meant to have been repaired - still leaks.
Grr
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This is the view inside the rear roof.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kTBV4OLow70/X-o0eJ4urAI/AAAAAAADY9U/JOquuzn7w-MSIAnUCUiyKb-bl8IhE1xXwCPcBGAsYHg/s4032/PXL_20201222_121824156.jpg)
and
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V2xZ9FqXwco/X-o0ePvfx1I/AAAAAAADY9U/b7xZG2IMSywhyZoI6-MihWAzJurRX1sIACPcBGAsYHg/s4032/PXL_20201222_121817599.jpg)
The roofer has put new 4 x 2 joists, no purlin, and put concrete tiles on.. What I'm most interest in, though, is thoughts of what should be done with the cracks showing in both corners (and you can see the inside of the parapet in the r/h side photo)
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Yes, the house I mentioned was in the Stockport area somewhere. Not sure where now, it was too long ago.
The universal problem was the way the walls were built, like cavity walls but without a significant gap. Steel wall ties were used to bind the two 'skins' but these can corrode and fail allowing the outer wall to part company. The most obvious sign is an outer wall that leans or bulges.
In a bad case the outer wall has to be taken down and rebuilt with new stainless steel ties. Otherwise ties can be put in place without rebuilding the brickwork.
In Stockport lots of terrace houses at the turn of last century were put up for investors who would own whole streets and live off the rents.
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Has he put concrete tiles on the rear roof on 4" deep joists ?
As for the main roof, I'm glad it's still slate. I would advise you to keep it that way, as a slate roof is much lighter than a concrete tiled roof which can easily overload a Victorian roof.
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Has he put concrete tiles on the rear roof on 4" deep joists ?
Yes <fuming smiley>
"It will be strong enough" quoth the roofer.
As a make-slightly-better I'm advocating tieing the new to old rafters, and strengthening the compromised purlin. Those 4x2 don't touch any purlin, just about 3.5m plate to plate.
As for the main roof, I'm glad it's still slate. I would advise you to keep it that way, as a slate roof is much lighter than a concrete tiled roof which can easily overload a Victorian roof.
No question there, agreed.
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The universal problem was the way the walls were built, like cavity walls but without a significant gap. Steel wall ties were used to bind the two 'skins' but these can corrode and fail allowing the outer wall to part company. The most obvious sign is an outer wall that leans or bulges.
In a bad case the outer wall has to be taken down and rebuilt with new stainless steel ties. Otherwise ties can be put in place without rebuilding the brickwork.
In Stockport lots of terrace houses at the turn of last century were put up for investors who would own whole streets and live off the rents.
One slight advantage to the Victorians, who didn't have ties so used bricks to link outer to inner skin.
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They did have ties and used them to tie the outside skin of bay windows to the rubbly piers on the interior corners between the windows. I had a job in Dorchester taking down a three window bay with gauged brickwork arches and re-building the whole thing with the original bricks and arches. It looked a treat when it was done, but it was a bit wobbly taking it down.
The ties were twisted iron ties with fishtail ends and had corroded through in the middle. Plus the bay had a hipped roof which had been re-roofed with concrete tiles. Which caused so much thrust on the wall plate that it made the bay lean out on the second floor. All of the houses in the terrace were the same except for one with the original tile roof., and had helicoils inserted to tie the brickwork together but were still leaning precariously over the street. All the helicoils did was tie the bricks together and the roofs were still thrusting the bays out. Cheap repairs. which did nothing to correct the cause.
Anyway back to the cracks, are they the ones in the corners of the rear extension bit ?
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In a bad case the outer wall has to be taken down and rebuilt with new stainless steel ties.
Out of idle curiosity, I looked around the area on Street View this afternoon. In most cases it looks as though, since that time, whole terraces have been taken down and rebuilt new.
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Anyway back to the cracks, are they the ones in the corners of the rear extension bit ?
Yes, they are.
Five weeks down the line, here's the progress update:
The previously noted floor issue has been sorted, concrete lintel and the rotted ends of the joists sistered for the most part.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KO7kpK23_H4/X-re9gjkKYI/AAAAAAADY9k/1QrfnukHlmIOLDyJjC_q2y97Ybg2GvIygCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201218_084826394.jpg)
The state of the previously hidden joist that supported the partition landing/bedroom wall was such I decided to get a structural engineer to look at it. He "signed off" on the joist repairs but said that specific joist had to be strengthened with something - be it steel or wood - set end to end between supporting walls, which is now complete (with wood)
As far as the damp is concerned, I've found a local tradesperson who has sprayed for woodworm, and is the sort of person with whom you are able to conduct a sensible discussion with. We all agree that the party wall needs injection.
Gas, which was labyrinthine in its live network of pipes has been replaced with a new feed to the two places gas is required.
Electrics has been completely replaced, including all the rubber and cloth NARSTY stuff.
Front bay floor which lacked any end support has been sorted.
Lots of stuff ripped out :(
Roof...mmmm
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Sounds like it's going full steam ahead.
So really, I'd just point the cracks with mortar and forget about them, unless you think the chimney is detaching itself. It looks like it's all straight joints with a bit of subsidence related cracking on the top right, but it's difficult to tell without eyeing up the whole house.
It sounds like you've got a roofer who suffers from Dunning-Kruger and I suspect he'll take exception to being corrected by a mere mortal, so you may have an ugly fight, but you're not the first one to come across such a type and roofing seems to attract them purely for the reason you stated earlier, as Mrs. P. will confirm.
I'd get the roof watertight and flashed properly by a competent and extend that valley gutter flashing down a bit and put a new, much more bigly hopper on the downpipes just to make sure to catch all the water. But, and it's a big but, I would imagine by the sheer quantity of mortar on that slate roof that you have a flashing issue which has been Botched & Hidden™.
I'd also re-point the tops of all the parapets and just do the neighbours bit too whilst you're up there.
As for the chemical injection and spraying for woodworm, it's not the way I do things as I'm more of a locate the cause and correct it permanently type. Unfortunately it's a party wall, so your hands are tied there.
It is imperative that you get rid of all the water ingress and dry out the building and using sand and cement mortar and gypsum plaster will slow the drying down, but that's modern building and it doesn't really go with old houses and there's a trade off between speed, cost and the use of appropriate materials.
The parapet needs looking at and the wall eyeing up for bow. Plus the hidden roof timbers need poking with a small screwdriver to check for rotten wood. Just eyeballing them isn't enough and physical inspection is necessary. You can do this yourself by judging how far the pointy bit of the screwdriver penetrates the wood and the rule of thumb is: If it goes in more than 1mm you have an issue.
A thorough job of inspection now, whilst the timber is exposed will save both time and money in the long run. The young lady will just have to wait a bit for her dream home to be finished, but it'll be worth it in pounds, shillings and pence.
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Cripes, looking at these photos gives me the fear. I'm sure it'll be lovely when it's finished tho.
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Lubbly jubbly, innit Mrs. P., does it bring back memories of all the fun you had?
Just looking at the pics again. At the top edge on the RHS of this photo, where the new mortar meets the shonky corner of the partition wall/parapet junction. The roof looks like it dips down and that point doesn't look like it has any flashing and requires much closer Ham inspection.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V2xZ9FqXwco/X-o0ePvfx1I/AAAAAAADY9U/b7xZG2IMSywhyZoI6-MihWAzJurRX1sIACPcBGAsYHg/s4032/PXL_20201222_121817599.jpg)
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And he's broken the corner off the first slate in the second course on the front left side of the valley.
And the first tile on the first course of the front left side of the valley is flush with the wall. All of that edge should be overhanging the wall and the whole of the roof should be flashed with lead and have soakers on every course at the parapet junction to stop wind driven rain.
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Wouldn't argue with any of those comments on the roof or roofers. And yes, coping stones on the top of the wall are deffo planned. I'll be looking at the parapet more closely, but the pebble dash and render is coming off soon so I'm waiting to see what the brickwork looks like.
The beam replacement went well, 2 x scaffold boards cut, glued and screwed were the perfect size, only needing 1mm off the width (scaffold still works on imperial sizes quite a bit), Managed to retain a 4" tongue going into the wall, and managed to get rid of the droop. The brackets are only there to hold the separate beams square. Happy with the end result
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-N42r6QIitTw/X-t36xiQKUI/AAAAAAADY-g/E2khjMzFvyEC_9f2QR73nfTx8FkqUJa8QCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201229_171532802.jpg)
and
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ilMfnIwllPE/X-t369O7CCI/AAAAAAADY-g/C5E6f3n3nucarUbtlksw_PytdImDA0iQQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201229_171511150.jpg)
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What's that holding up ?
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About 30 bricks and mortar, max, below the strain relief arch. Not structural otherwise BAD things would already have happened.
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Looks like tidy work. Did you do it?
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Thank you, yes.
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Perhaps you should get rid of the roofer and go up on the roof, it's no more difficult than doing what you've already done. Don't forget to use sharp sand with the pointing and copings on the parapet.
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Well, there has been a lot happening, I should update.
At present, I am thankful that I am doing joinery rather than takeapartery.
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Please do update, I'm eager to read the next installment.
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+1
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Do
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If anyone wants, I can document the time I tried to put together one of those flat-packed fold-it yourself cardboard storage boxes.
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Well, here's some highlights.
First, managed to score 7 (yes, 7) original Victorian doors from someone local who was throwing them out, here are 4:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YjMuyoMcmvc/YB2z-ZiYwOI/AAAAAAADZRg/bBxHsd-jr0sSrjs4Yvxt90T7cRtXkixigCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210107_183830291.jpg)
I've hung most of them, as in
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6PHwIqvv_4o/YB25bDgAb-I/AAAAAAADZRs/DhTy1e6ZCW8X-j_ZSqgTbHfl7jbg39pogCPcBGAsYHg/s4032/PXL_20210126_165837140.jpg)
Those interested in detail will note a compensatory compensation adjustment, compensating for the lack of rectangular posture for the building. Handsome they are, too
Next, kitchen.
Here's the before
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8BQ-4tIbk9E/YB273_sm85I/AAAAAAADZSI/FC0di6AGPMAQTUcUTz2Bfe8-I2WtB_vcQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201218_085903238.jpg)
Someone was throwing out a kitchen that had been sitting in their (leaky) garage
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lRikckuSYvo/YB28jmxheqI/AAAAAAADZSc/_tZBpZ7XWPYqD07oOEk1-m0K4hVFeZSrwCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210113_141346988.jpg)
view the other way half way through the install
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h98TzyA0YKQ/YB28_-2tsTI/AAAAAAADZSk/lyaW2kv2l_MJI6mhEOeYtAfTWXF5uoDPACPcBGAsYHg/s1599/WhatsApp%2BImage%2B2021-01-29%2Bat%2B19.33.18.jpeg)
and now it looks like
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fDFqTzySiUc/YB29XarOVHI/AAAAAAADZSw/r-axKhxiAFwHkdUir3duZabILkGTi95dwCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210205_193432747.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sPjUisjXoL4/YB29XVEgmOI/AAAAAAADZSw/w0EapAn2rjgTLl1fR2-WsBzYvajwrchAQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210205_193422446.jpg)
Windows.
We left these a while back at the start of the process. Since which time, all vestiges of the old have been removed. To prepare for the new windows, the outside skin had to be built back in bond. While I left I could do it, I also felt a real brickie would do a better job. The guys who were doing the pebbledash removal and pointing (and doing a good job) said they could do it. Turned out they didn't even know what was needed :(
Here's the pic of the windows with the bricking they did
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dP2azmo0dL8/YB2-4iagGsI/AAAAAAADZS8/8SBPna5Y6ygb3iNKdXlMEJ0Dj9QlxJqtgCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210124_165339879.jpg)
And after I'd finished the other three edges
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z84LFQY5ngM/YB2_IsLTSWI/AAAAAAADZTE/CVWFzq7UuhEFuqk42HKPAFFBqW-wY9RywCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210126_165652014.jpg)
Windows arrive Monday. Stone repair gets done in a about a week's time - repairing the lintel and restoring the fancy stuff for about £500 each window.
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Aw, those bricks are much nicer than the harling. Are they staying like that?
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Aw, those bricks are much nicer than the harling. Are they staying like that?
Yoose been in Scottie-and for a little too long.
By harling do you mean pebble dash? If so, that has just been removed at substantial cost both to us who paid for the work and the guys that are doing the work, who hadn't realised that the bricks are gaunts and so much harder than stocks which is more normal for facing in the area and are therefore taking much longer to complete on the job than they expected.
As the pebbledash had damaged the brick face, they grind back to give the finish you can see. The bricks I have used to rebuild the edge are also gaunts, so have been left slightly proud so as to allow them to be ground back flush and look exactly the same as the rest of the facings. The lintel crack is a common result of buggering around removing the windows, and will be repaired by these folk (http://www.restorerepointrepair.com/).
The next door property was in the same family, and had been identically desecrated. Here's the streetview (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5522178,0.0314359,3a,75y,317.61h,95.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSLyNnvS_BAlAWW86kyN2yQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that shows the run of terraces.
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I've been in Scottiland forever! Yes that is what I mean (or roughcasting, if you prefer). Looks loads better :) The poor house will be heaving a big sigh at being able to breathe again.
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The doors are lovely too, can't believe they were being chucked. Did you get them for free?
Was just reading this about harling. "Almost impossible to remove"
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/apr/21/pebbledash-homes-nick-clegg
Just looked at the streetview, agree with rr. It's going to look amazing.
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(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9-TmQiSC4Ts/YB7rZH1K4KI/AAAAAAADZT4/Ljve-uX7D3oNRBdgI2-Wang-__CoplubQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210206_164507769.jpg)
We haz eyes!!!
(and yes the doors were free!)
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Before
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M1s28j2C7eM/YCAbAd1jcRI/AAAAAAADZUg/5rgtv4zOl2cvDCH1rtfwQqdoc5wyTLYDACPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201123_120702101.jpg)
and after (strictly speaking "interim" as this will be replaced with re-made newel posts and spindles, but on the lower end of the priority spectrum
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Wk_HFehBxOw/YCAbrKsl0RI/AAAAAAADZUo/pAev2tqrE-kO71bNiwbYwHF4_VDe52csQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210207_160802462.jpg)
Satisfying I re-used the timber taken out of that crappy partition to make it, with the exception of the "handrail" which was what was left over ripping some 4x2 down to 3x2 for the windows.
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There's room for Harry Potter too!
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:thumbsup:
Nice one, Ham. Is the Building Inspector happy?
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There's room for Harry Potter too!
I'm not getting the reference? Something to do with the obscure hole in the cellar door?
:thumbsup:
Nice one, Ham. Is the Building Inspector happy?
As per https://www.gov.uk/building-regulations-approval/when-you-dont-need-approval and https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects what we are doing doesn't need approval, but we've had structural engineers look to check in case there is need to validate at some point in the future. Everything we are doing is basically quality reinstatement, there's a few things that had been done previously and (IMO) will need attention, but they can be combined with the extension that will need full planning.
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Nice windows Ham. Also those reveals are not easy to get right. DAMHIKT.
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What I did was to cut a length of 6x1 so that I could wedge it in and drew a plumb line down, which gave me both a plumb and a square face to work to. What I didn't realise I would have to cope with was the uneven mortar beds of the original courses. Getting the mortar into the bond was fun, too.
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I'm not getting the reference? Something to do with the obscure hole in the cellar door?
At the beginning of the first book, Harry Potter is living in the cupboard under the stairs because his aunt and uncle will not provide proper space for him.
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The doors are lovely too, can't believe they were being chucked. Did you get them for free?
Was just reading this about harling. "Almost impossible to remove"
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/apr/21/pebbledash-homes-nick-clegg
Just looked at the streetview, agree with rr. It's going to look amazing.
Rendering old stone houses was a big thing in rural France. Our barn was the only building left in our hameau without it. Once on, it needs the Mairie's permission to take it off and it was not so easy to do the work. Pointing old stone buildings isn't so easy, either.. Just don't use Portland.
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Pinky and Perky the pointing duo are using lime mortar for the repointing.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0nsySXfCXko/YCUfhFMBv6I/AAAAAAADZWM/TuJt_YKV7NsnVo_Dri3OgAWuCdwGj85XACPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210210_195719166.jpg)
The boxwork around the gallows brackets turned into a faux fireplace along with a cast insert for £5 off Gumtree and a free oak surround off Facebook. (And yes, before you ask, there will be a couple of noggins for the boarding at the top, but not 4x2)
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Gallows brackets ???
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The "old style" way of removing fireplaces was to support the remainder of the stack (once having removed the lower part) with an angle iron bracket with a brace (hence, gallows)
(http://canopyproducts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/gallow-bracket-installation-1.jpg)
I really don't like them, and would prefer to remove the stack all the way to the top but that would be a substantial additional effort and require building control. So, I took a deep breath and made up the faux fireplace, ignoring the c.5cm the wall leans outward at the top, as that seems very historic (there's an OLD wall tie that looks as if it was intended to address that) and best left well alone. (you can just see the bottom of the brackets at the top)
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You're quite right to 'really not like' gallows brackets. I would avoid specifying a gallows bracket solution at virtually all costs. Especially where the chimney breast is on a party wall, where the adjoining property may well do something similar, and you end up with two chimney breasts precariously balanced either side of the wall... :o
The best solution is a ceiling-level steel in line with the front of the breast, and little 'needle' beams to support the cheeks.
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Everyday is a school day...
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The best solution is a ceiling-level steel in line with the front of the breast, and little 'needle' beams to support the cheeks.
Isn't the best solution to take out the whole stack, top to bottom and make good? In my simple mind the buttress effect of the stack is overwhelmingly negated by the torsional effect of a couple of tons of brick stuck out 18"?
It's a flank wall, and they took out both fireplaces. I'd leave the rear one which is smaller. They also buggered with the bay, but the relief arch is just about still in place. It looks like the centre of the front has dropped, and the flank wall is all about the place but - apparently - stable. I put little weight behind the original works being done under building control, but as it was done >20 years ago, it is likely stable now.
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Oops.. My neighbours have just had the chimney breast replaced with gallows brackets. I think I might nip round there later and tell them we are planning to do the same :demon:
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Our old house (we left 7 years ago) was in the family since 1969. A fairly standard 30s two storey detached house with a chimney in the middle between the two downstairs living rooms. When we moved in, dad (a builder and decorator by trade) removed the chimney breast in one of the downstairs rooms and the bedroom above it. The section in the loft he left unsupported. As far as I know it's still like it.
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The best solution is a ceiling-level steel in line with the front of the breast, and little 'needle' beams to support the cheeks.
Isn't the best solution to take out the whole stack, top to bottom and make good? In my simple mind the buttress effect of the stack is overwhelmingly negated by the torsional effect of a couple of tons of brick stuck out 18"?
Yebbut sometimes you don't have the luxury of being able to do that (e.g. where the chimney stack is shared, or where the purlins bear onto the shoulders of the chimney at roof-level).
...dad (a builder and decorator by trade) removed the chimney breast in one of the downstairs rooms and the bedroom above it. The section in the loft he left unsupported. As far as I know it's still like it.
:o It's amazing what does stand up. I often see things like masonry first-floor walls built directly off timber joists, or (this morning) a purlin propped off a ceiling binder :facepalm:.
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Been too busy to post much lately but we're on the home (hah!) straight now, looks like they might be ready to move in this weekend, nip and tuck with the baby.
Upstairs is ready and decorated, with only the worst wall in the room with the replaced floor still too damp to paint. Floors, plumbing etc sorted. Only waiting carpets in the rooms to be carpeted before occupation
Downstairs is approaching finished pro tem, kitchen is finished with flooring, main room to be sanded this week, sub floor supports fixed with scaffolding screw jacks. etc, etc, etc.
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Wow, how did all of that happen so quickly?!
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Sometimes I wonder. Using an ace firm of plasterers helped (rugby club sourced) and I've bought in help because I just haven't got the time but all in all, it feels good.
Album of photos is here https://photos.app.goo.gl/VTcVhRQcyA5kV7o59 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/VTcVhRQcyA5kV7o59), not sure how the order is going to be, think the recent shots are at the bottom. You may want to take particular note of the corbels, restored courtesy of peelaway ® and more than a little graft.
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Tidy.
Your girl ( I know she's more than a girl) is lucky.
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:thumbsup:
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OMG, that looked like it was fit for demolition a few weeks ago and now it looks amazing! (Why does every tiny project I start take months?) I particularly love the hexagonal tiles on the bathroom floor and the retro radiators.
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That's an excellent Job Ham. I particularly like the brickwork and window features upstairs at the front which you've brought back to life.
It's because you live in your project Mrs P. We have similar restraints not helped by mllePB working from home for the last 12 months.
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Well, the scaffolding is down, so the final (ok a small amount of pointing for Pink and Perky to finish above the porch) view is now on show. Before is to the right. at some point the porch will go, with a square bay around the downstairs to replace it, but that's not a priority.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-77DEdGjuhDQ/YSUxVrX1-jI/AAAAAAADg74/5EjlbU5mD_EKxTmzl9tweAuhG0ycxFHcQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210824_165730948.jpg)
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Well, the scaffolding is down, so the final (ok a small amount of pointing for Pink and Perky to finish above the porch) view is now on show. Before is to the right. at some point the porch will go, with a square bay around the downstairs to replace it, but that's not a priority.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-77DEdGjuhDQ/YSUxVrX1-jI/AAAAAAADg74/5EjlbU5mD_EKxTmzl9tweAuhG0ycxFHcQCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20210824_165730948.jpg)
Oh that's most dandy.
Lucky gal!
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Looks good, it just needs the pebbledashing redone.
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Looks amazing.
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Beautiful work!
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Looks good, it just needs the pebbledashing redone.
;D
It looks very grand, well done Ham et al!
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Well done, looks really good.
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Looks a good job. I've done 12 like that now, looking for number 12A, sold most, but still got a few. Well Done.
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Looks fantastic - reminds me of a property our family owned way back in the 1970s in Clinton Road (just off Dames Road) - prices now seem to be beyond eye-watering :hand:
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Great thread and a beautiful house rescue! Well done fam Ham!
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