Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: Polar Bear on 16 August, 2021, 01:25:32 pm

Title: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 16 August, 2021, 01:25:32 pm
Just that.

It's "look around" time and they are out there with the likes of Octopus, Good Energy and more.  Just wondering if they come recommended or not and why.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 16 August, 2021, 01:47:23 pm
IME if they are small and well-priced, they will go bust within a year and Ofgem will transfer you to a crap Big Six firn that it will take 2-3 months to extricate yourself from.

What does uSwitch say about them?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 16 August, 2021, 05:19:51 pm
Others may not agree but, from bitter experience, avoid these small peripheral outfits

What worked for me was to PHONE (not a comparison site, not the company website etc) direct to British Gas - I got a 2 year fixed, dual-fuel deal at better than anything the comparison sites offered.  They offset the fee they pay to the introducer site and are then open to negotiation.

BUT you need to work out the balance between the mix of standing charges and actual consumption to get an accurate comparison - easy to do with a spreadsheet and using your past annual consumption figures.   [I have a spreadsheet calculator that I've sent to a few members in the past]
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ppg on 16 August, 2021, 05:56:14 pm
I've been with these for a couple of years now, no complaints at all
https://www.outfoxthemarket.co.uk/about/
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.outfoxthemarket.co.uk

#1 energy supplier for customer service in the 2020 Which? survey

I check with comparison sites occasionally and am always on the best tariff (OTM suggest changing tariff automatically)
 

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 16 August, 2021, 06:30:26 pm
I've been with these for a couple of years now, no complaints at all
https://www.outfoxthemarket.co.uk/about/
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.outfoxthemarket.co.uk

#1 energy supplier for customer service in the 2020 Which? survey

I check with comparison sites occasionally and am always on the best tariff (OTM suggest changing tariff automatically)
Sorry, but I'd avoid Outfox TM and any of their associated companies like the plague.
There's a whole Facebook group devoted to helping people extricate themselves from the (alleged) dodgy dealings of OTM.
The company is associated with Fischer Future Heat who apparently sell super-duper storage heaters, and if memory serves me right Trading Standards have slapped their wrists on occasions.
OTM have been alleged to be manipulating online reviews, and I'm told they aggressively pursue their detractors. Allegedly.
It took me several months and input from the ombudsman to stop using OTM.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 16 August, 2021, 06:41:49 pm
I know a kind chap (Rob, I think) explained this all, but I still don't really understand any of this supplier nonsense.

I am thinking of moving to Octopus though, mostly because it conjures up an image of a cephalopod that can shoot lightning out of its tentacles, like a badboy mini-Cthulu. This might not be the most informed way of choosing a new supplier of gas and electricity. But electric tentacles, that's better than lasers, and you don't want to even think of where it shoots gas out from.

Fed up again with BG, who combine endless expense with exciting new ways to screw things up. Thanks chaps, for returning us to paper billing this time around, who needs either the text or email or phone app when I can a screwed up bill stuffed through the letter box (I assume it went to the wrong address) two weeks later than the bill date.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jurek on 16 August, 2021, 07:21:03 pm
I've been with Octopus for a couple of years.
What I've noticed is that :
a) My monthlies are significantly less than when I was with Scottish Atlantic or whatever they're called.
b) I always seem to be ~ £300.00 in credit.
c) When I've had occasion to phone them, a real person answers pronto.

ETA - My Mum is currently in a care home, and it doesn't look like she'll be returning to her house. The house has been unoccupied since April. BG were about to put a ~20% hike on her DD, in a house which has used no gas and very little electricity in that time.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ppg on 16 August, 2021, 08:14:39 pm
Sorry, but I'd avoid Outfox TM and any of their associated companies like the plague.
There's a whole Facebook group devoted to helping people extricate themselves from the (alleged) dodgy dealings of OTM.
The company is associated with Fischer Future Heat who apparently sell super-duper storage heaters, and if memory serves me right Trading Standards have slapped their wrists on occasions.
OTM have been alleged to be manipulating online reviews, and I'm told they aggressively pursue their detractors. Allegedly.
It took me several months and input from the ombudsman to stop using OTM.
Hmm....
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/energy-companies/article/energy-company-reviews/outfox-the-market-acH9h4U4Etq7
Seem to be much improved now?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 16 August, 2021, 08:53:35 pm
I've been with these for a couple of years now, no complaints at all
https://www.outfoxthemarket.co.uk/about/
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.outfoxthemarket.co.uk

#1 energy supplier for customer service in the 2020 Which? survey

I check with comparison sites occasionally and am always on the best tariff (OTM suggest changing tariff automatically)
Sorry, but I'd avoid Outfox TM and any of their associated companies like the plague.
There's a whole Facebook group devoted to helping people extricate themselves from the (alleged) dodgy dealings of OTM.
The company is associated with Fischer Future Heat who apparently sell super-duper storage heaters, and if memory serves me right Trading Standards have slapped their wrists on occasions.
OTM have been alleged to be manipulating online reviews, and I'm told they aggressively pursue their detractors. Allegedly.
It took me several months and input from the ombudsman to stop using OTM.

Isn't that what (almost) every business does?    - when we moved house the energy supplier was AVRO - after a long and tortuous process involving compensation awarded by the Ombudsman we escaped . . .   if you read AVRO's Trust Pilot reviews you can see the same hand writing them (and they appear to have more 4* reviews than they have customers.

Perhaps I'm cynical and distrusting but I ignore all reviews, and don't contribute them (other than ebay feedback)  - when, I think, TrustPilot says "ratings may be affected by the business advertising" (or words to that effect) it says it all.  [Please read in conjunction with RANT thread!]
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 16 August, 2021, 09:24:28 pm
I used to be rob.  Well, I still am.   I very rarely post after a pretty bad experience.

The sector is about to have a major upheaval so a be a little careful.  I’ll respond to genuine requests for assistance if anyone PMs me.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 16 August, 2021, 09:29:58 pm
I've been with Octopus for a couple of years.
What I've noticed is that :
a) My monthlies are significantly less than when I was with Scottish Atlantic or whatever they're called.
b) I always seem to be ~ £300.00 in credit.
c) When I've had occasion to phone them, a real person answers pronto.

d) They're the only company that have successfully made our smart meters work.
e) They've done an impressive job of website accessibility (and phatasmagoriana-compliance, even if the cephalopod doesn't shoot lightning).

So naturally I'm expecting...

IME if they are small and well-priced, they will go bust within a year and Ofgem will transfer you to a crap Big Six firn that it will take 2-3 months to extricate yourself from.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 16 August, 2021, 09:39:56 pm
Octopus very safe.  Last market valuation was $2bn after investments from Australian and Japanese backers.

They don’t make any money but are well backed.

(I’ll stop now)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 16 August, 2021, 09:59:48 pm
I'll probably go with Octopus, despite the disappointing lack of tentacular electricity. They seem to have a decent green tariff and I just can't be arsed with BG anymore.

Hope it wasn't me Rob, it was a good (and helpful!) explanation and I get it, I just don't get it, if you see what I mean.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 17 August, 2021, 06:39:32 am
If anyone is thinking of moving to Octopus (who I consider to be excellent as well) - I'd suggest that they drop a PM to any of the forumites who have said they are with Octopus - and that includes me - asking for their referral link
Octopus give £50 credit to both the referred new customer and the referrer.

I'd personally discourage YACFers from posting their own links here as it could get a bit spammy. Let's leave it up to folks to ask for the link?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ppg on 17 August, 2021, 10:13:37 am
Interesting coincidence today.
I went to submit my monthly meter reading as usual to OTM and was surprised to discover a (correct) reading already on my account, from yesterday?

Asked on Live chat worried that my senility must be advancing since I had no recollection of reading it yesterday.
Within a minute they replied that they had read my 'smart meter' which is really strange since it has been dumb for a least 5 years and was installed by EDF!

PS - according to Uswitch my current tariff is still the cheapest around, and saves £197 over Octopus Energy - DYOR

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 17 August, 2021, 10:21:46 am
^ditto

Maybe they have finally managed to read the smart meter smartly. I've had no issues with Outfox either, although my monthly DD increased recently from £93 to £115
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 17 August, 2021, 11:38:35 am
Mine's gone up to £65 and I thought that was bad!  It's been about £42 for years.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 17 August, 2021, 12:04:44 pm
I've just done a Uswitch comparison and it says my Outfox is still the cheapest.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rafletcher on 17 August, 2021, 12:45:16 pm
It must be area dependent. I'm with So Energy, and Uswitch reckons thats the best deal I can get.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: De Sisti on 17 August, 2021, 01:32:49 pm
If anyone is thinking of moving to Octopus (who I consider to be excellent as well) - I'd suggest that they drop a PM to any of the forumites who have said they are with Octopus
I'm with Octopus. All ok.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 17 August, 2021, 01:57:50 pm
I'm not sure cheapest is necessarily best if they just roll over and play bankrupt in six months.

That said, from what BG are charging me, I must be getting Premium Luxurious Energy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 17 August, 2021, 01:59:07 pm
If anyone is thinking of moving to Octopus (who I consider to be excellent as well) - I'd suggest that they drop a PM to any of the forumites who have said they are with Octopus
I'm with Octopus. All ok.

I've just renewed my tariff with Octopus.  I'm sure I could get cheaper if I shop around, but at this point I'm willing to pay a premium not to have random people ring on the door when I'm still asleep and expect me to move all the bikes and camping kit.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 17 August, 2021, 02:01:35 pm
Sort of as I expected.  Very little on the topic of Peoples Energy but plenty of Octopus fans.  Octopus come very highly recommended from many sources but it's always worth knowing what the opposition are up to.

Decision not yet made ...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 18 August, 2021, 10:05:01 am
As a general point the wholesale markets for gas and power have doubled since April.

If you took out your existing deal before then it is highly unlikely that there will be a cheaper deal out there at the moment.   My current fix rolls off in January and I'm expecting a chunky increase.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Wowbagger on 18 August, 2021, 04:45:32 pm
I happened to be googling something to do with Ecotricity today and I stumbled across the fact that Ecotricity have put in a hostile bid to take over Good Energy. The Good Energy man has said to reject the bid because he reckons £3.40 per share that Ecotricity are offering is way below the true value.

https://www.stockmarketwire.com/article/7213497/Good-Energy-urges-shareholders-to-reject-340p-per-share-takeover-offer-from-Ecotricity.html
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 August, 2021, 05:39:50 pm
Dale Vince as the Bezos, or maybe the Mike Ashley, of renewable energy. I know someone who works for Good Energy (they're based in Chippenham), I'll inquire.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 18 August, 2021, 07:04:32 pm
I happened to be googling something to do with Ecotricity today and I stumbled across the fact that Ecotricity have put in a hostile bid to take over Good Energy. The Good Energy man has said to reject the bid because he reckons £3.40 per share that Ecotricity are offering is way below the true value.

https://www.stockmarketwire.com/article/7213497/Good-Energy-urges-shareholders-to-reject-340p-per-share-takeover-offer-from-Ecotricity.html

It's an ongoing saga with Ecotricity waging public war with Good Energy.  I don't really understand it but I do think that Vincent is being a persistent CBE.  His natural enemy is the fossil industry but he wages war with businesses in the same growth sector as his own enterprise.  It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 09 September, 2021, 08:09:20 am
I happened to be googling something to do with Ecotricity today and I stumbled across the fact that Ecotricity have put in a hostile bid to take over Good Energy. The Good Energy man has said to reject the bid because he reckons £3.40 per share that Ecotricity are offering is way below the true value.

https://www.stockmarketwire.com/article/7213497/Good-Energy-urges-shareholders-to-reject-340p-per-share-takeover-offer-from-Ecotricity.html

It's an ongoing saga with Ecotricity waging public war with Good Energy.  I don't really understand it but I do think that Vincent is being a persistent CBE.  His natural enemy is the fossil industry but he wages war with businesses in the same growth sector as his own enterprise.  It makes absolutely no sense to me.

We had a similar discussion in the office.   Dale has built a decent business but it's not as big as it could have been and his focus has never really been in the right place.   The info is all available publicly but he did take a lot of money out of the business some years ago that could maybe have been used better.   It's not a profitable business but no energy retail really is.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 09 September, 2021, 08:10:05 am
Record wholesale energy prices at the moment.

2 Suppliers have shut up shop this week.   There are more to come.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 09 September, 2021, 09:06:30 am
Quite a lot of money goes into Forest Green Rovers…
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 10 September, 2021, 12:50:58 pm
Quite a lot of money goes into Forest Green Rovers…

Terrible waste.   :demon:
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 12 September, 2021, 10:19:58 am
Mr Vince mentioned up-thread has a profile in The Sunday Times Business News section today - looks like total cobblers to me.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 13 September, 2021, 09:31:27 am
Mr Vince mentioned up-thread has a profile in The Sunday Times Business News section today - looks like total cobblers to me.

I had a bit of a rant at the paper some years ago where he stated he was paying himself a salary of £60k a year in line with the MD of a company in the SW.   The accounts showed that significantly more than that was taken out of the business.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 14 September, 2021, 02:05:26 pm
Did you switch ?   They've just failed :-


Two energy suppliers, Utility Point and People’s Energy, have announced today that they are ceasing to trade. Utility Point supplies gas and electricity to around 220,000 domestic customers. People’s Energy supplies gas and electricity to around 350,000 domestic customers and around 1,000 non-domestic customers.

Under Ofgem’s safety net, the energy supply of Utility Point and People’s Energy customers will continue and outstanding credit balances of domestic customers will be protected.

Customers of Utility Point and People’s Energy will be contacted by their new supplier, which will be chosen by Ofgem.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 14 September, 2021, 03:10:19 pm
Quite a lot of money goes into Forest Green Rovers…

Terrible waste.   :demon:

 ;D

Mr Vince mentioned up-thread has a profile in The Sunday Times Business News section today - looks like total cobblers to me.

I had a bit of a rant at the paper some years ago where he stated he was paying himself a salary of £60k a year in line with the MD of a company in the SW.   The accounts showed that significantly more than that was taken out of the business.

I read the Sunday Times profile too...

robgul seems to have read it correctly...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fruitcake on 14 September, 2021, 03:38:41 pm
It used to be that a 100% renewables tariff was a reason to choose a supplier, but now most seem to offer this. So now the differentiator is the quality of customer service, which for me means the ability to make changes to my account via the website and without having to wait on the phone.

Currently with Octopus and can report that their site allows a great deal of control over the account, including the amount of the monthly direct debit. I'm on a tracker tariff which charges the wholesale unit rate plus a percentage plus a moderate standing charge. My bills are cheap enough but the tariff effectively ensures the company will remain solvent. Happy to share a discount code if anyone wants an introductory £x to switch. Drop me a PM.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 14 September, 2021, 03:57:33 pm
It used to be that a 100% renewables tariff was a reason to choose a supplier, but now most seem to offer this. So now the differentiator is the quality of customer service, which for me means the ability to make changes to my account via the website and without having to wait on the phone.

Currently with Octopus and can report that their site allows a great deal of control over the account, including the amount of the monthly direct debit. I'm on a tracker tariff which charges the wholesale unit rate plus a percentage plus a moderate standing charge. My bills are cheap enough but the tariff effectively ensures the company will remain solvent. Happy to share a discount code if anyone wants an introductory £x to switch. Drop me a PM.

In the last few months forward wholesale prices have gone from 5p/kWh to 15p/kWh.   One day this week traded at 50p/kWh.   You might be in for an expensive few months.

I wouldn't worry about Octopus's ability to stay solvent.   They are very well backed.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 14 September, 2021, 04:02:44 pm
I'm founding my own energy supply company and calling it ianWATT. Completely renewable power generated by my febrile mind.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 September, 2021, 10:11:36 pm
It used to be that a 100% renewables tariff was a reason to choose a supplier, but now most seem to offer this. So now the differentiator is the quality of customer service, which for me means the ability to make changes to my account via the website and without having to wait on the phone.

Currently with Octopus and can report that their site allows a great deal of control over the account, including the amount of the monthly direct debit. I'm on a tracker tariff which charges the wholesale unit rate plus a percentage plus a moderate standing charge. My bills are cheap enough but the tariff effectively ensures the company will remain solvent. Happy to share a discount code if anyone wants an introductory £x to switch. Drop me a PM.

In the last few months forward wholesale prices have gone from 5p/kWh to 15p/kWh.   One day this week traded at 50p/kWh.   You might be in for an expensive few months.

I wouldn't worry about Octopus's ability to stay solvent.   They are very well backed.

So get a fix now then? Octopus just emailed me today..
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 14 September, 2021, 10:16:27 pm
It used to be that a 100% renewables tariff was a reason to choose a supplier, but now most seem to offer this. So now the differentiator is the quality of customer service, which for me means the ability to make changes to my account via the website and without having to wait on the phone.

Currently with Octopus and can report that their site allows a great deal of control over the account, including the amount of the monthly direct debit. I'm on a tracker tariff which charges the wholesale unit rate plus a percentage plus a moderate standing charge. My bills are cheap enough but the tariff effectively ensures the company will remain solvent. Happy to share a discount code if anyone wants an introductory £x to switch. Drop me a PM.

In the last few months forward wholesale prices have gone from 5p/kWh to 15p/kWh.   One day this week traded at 50p/kWh.   You might be in for an expensive few months.

I wouldn't worry about Octopus's ability to stay solvent.   They are very well backed.

So get a fix now then? Octopus just emailed me today..

This is where I could get myself into trouble.   The wholesale market is the highest I have seen it in 20 years.  We have a shortage of gas inflows, carbon pricing has tripled and the power market struggles to balance on low wind days.  There’s a chance it could go higher and there’s a chance of a sell off but I don’t think it would be big.

I’m locked in until Jan and I was considering seeing if my supplier would let me extend for a year after that.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 15 September, 2021, 06:37:16 am
I understand that People's Energy is now out of the frame.

Octopus seems to be the preferred choice as it stands anyway.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 September, 2021, 08:16:57 am
Another four smaller suppliers are expected to go bust imminently as they can't afford to supply gas at the prices customers have paid.  It really is a shitshow.  I blame Thatcher.  Tell Sid he's a grifting capitalist bastard.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 19 September, 2021, 08:22:08 am
Another four smaller suppliers are expected to go bust imminently as they can't afford to supply gas at the prices customers have paid.  It really is a shitshow.  I blame Thatcher.  Tell Sid he's a grifting capitalist bastard.

I'm hoping that one the candidates is AVRO after our experience with them . . .  it seems that reviews are now almost all 1star with dire customer service and potential illegal witholding of funds to be returned etc (the older reviews looked as if they cam from the same hand . . . ? AVRO themsleves?)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 19 September, 2021, 08:34:01 am
Energy prices are the hot (!) topic in the papers . . .  but something that confuses me is the "price cap" - which I think is that an energy supplier is not permitted to charge in a 12 month period more than a fixed amount to a consumer on a "standard variable tariff" - I think it's about £1,200.

Our supply is with British Gas for both fuels on a fixed rate until February 2022 - with the likely annual amount being close to what I think is the cap value.

Looking sideways at the cap limit etc - if a consumer has a massive mansion and is consuming a vast amout of gas and electricity but opts for a "standard variable tariff" they would have a cap on their annual cost?

I'm sure I'm missing something here - but I would like enlightenment.

--
Widening this slightly I really find it hard to understand that there can be any benefits in "utility competition" as against them being state-run - for energy, water, phone, railways . . .  with duplicaton, waste and the fat-cat director factors.    I'm old enough to remember when there were just regional gas, electricity, water providers, GPO for phones and British Railways - seemed to work OK?

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 19 September, 2021, 08:36:21 am
You forgot about all those happy shareholders. Is Sid still about?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 19 September, 2021, 08:37:56 am
It proves unequivocally that capitalism is a badly flawed model.  The whole boom and bust, growth and recession, bonanza times and depression are based purely on the greed imperative.  I recall from my childhood days the corner shops, independent butchers, greengrocers, etc. who weren't there making huge profits but were making a living and putting a little aside for their holidays and their retirement.  These days the profit motive has overwhelmed everything and greed is seen in some quarters (tory quarters for instance) as good.   

It also strikes me that right wingers tend to also claim to be of a religious persuasion and yet greed is not a pillar of religion.  Seems to me that religion is a convenience for these people.

I suspect that it will be difficult to switch once we are placed as all energy providers will be reluctant to take on more potential debt.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 September, 2021, 08:38:55 am
To be fair, GPO telephones were awful.  You waited 3 months to have a line installed, it cost a small fortune to use and the phone choice was wall-hung or table in a range of muted Bakelite colours.

The other utilities were just fine, and vertical integration made them potentially more efficient.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 September, 2021, 08:41:02 am
The Ofgem "safety net" is nothing of the sort.  You get tossed to one of the Big Five who will not honour your current tariff.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 September, 2021, 08:42:13 am
You forgot about all those happy shareholders. Is Sid still about?
He's called Sigmund now, and lives in Germany.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 19 September, 2021, 08:43:45 am
You forgot about all those happy shareholders. Is Sid still about?

I seem to recall reading that the reality was that most small shareholders sold up fairly quickly to make their back ad leavened once public utilities primarily in the hands of the wealthy.

To be fair, GPO telephones were awful.  You waited 3 months to have a line installed, it cost a small fortune to use and the phone choice was wall-hung or table in a range of muted Bakelite colours.

The other utilities were just fine, and vertical integration made them potentially more efficient.

It was odd though that BT were forced to allow others cheap access to the network allowing them to make a profit out of the public investment.  The same essentially happens with the gas and electricity networks.   Water is slightly different still but the same model could in theory be applied.

All privatisation has done is add a layer or two of spivonomics and taken a slice away from the unility and the public purse and shoved into the pockets of overpaid fat cats and shareholders instead.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 19 September, 2021, 08:56:19 am
Energy prices are the hot (!) topic in the papers . . .  but something that confuses me is the "price cap" - which I think is that an energy supplier is not permitted to charge in a 12 month period more than a fixed amount to a consumer on a "standard variable tariff" - I think it's about £1,200.

Our supply is with British Gas for both fuels on a fixed rate until February 2022 - with the likely annual amount being close to what I think is the cap value.

Looking sideways at the cap limit etc - if a consumer has a massive mansion and is consuming a vast amout of gas and electricity but opts for a "standard variable tariff" they would have a cap on their annual cost?

I'm sure I'm missing something here - but I would like enlightenment.

--
Widening this slightly I really find it hard to understand that there can be any benefits in "utility competition" as against them being state-run - for energy, water, phone, railways . . .  with duplicaton, waste and the fat-cat director factors.    I'm old enough to remember when there were just regional gas, electricity, water providers, GPO for phones and British Railways - seemed to work OK?

Firstly, Avro is one of the ones on the list but haven’t gone yet.

On price capping the cap is a tariff that equates to £1,200 pa for an average consumer.   If you have a bigger consumption then you pay the same tariff but spend more.

There’s an upcoming issue.   The cap is set in advance of the season and goes up 1st Oct.  Wholesale prices have gone up so much that the cap is now a loss making deal at a gross level for existing suppliers.   Can you think of another industry where you are forced to supply a loss making customer ?

My fix runs out in January and I had a look at Uswitch this morning.  There were only 5 quotes and the cheapest quote was an 800 quid increase pa.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 19 September, 2021, 08:58:52 am
The Ofgem "safety net" is nothing of the sort.  You get tossed to one of the Big Five who will not honour your current tariff.

Forecast cost of Supplier of Last Resort for this Winter is looking like £1bn.  All this cost is collected back through a levy on energy supply so we cover the costs.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 19 September, 2021, 08:59:49 am
Thr Royal Mail is another example of private business getting access to the cream of the business, whilst the original organisation still has a requirement to deliver to the most difficult places.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 19 September, 2021, 09:10:53 am
Energy prices are the hot (!) topic in the papers . . .  but something that confuses me is the "price cap" - which I think is that an energy supplier is not permitted to charge in a 12 month period more than a fixed amount to a consumer on a "standard variable tariff" - I think it's about £1,200.

Our supply is with British Gas for both fuels on a fixed rate until February 2022 - with the likely annual amount being close to what I think is the cap value.

Looking sideways at the cap limit etc - if a consumer has a massive mansion and is consuming a vast amout of gas and electricity but opts for a "standard variable tariff" they would have a cap on their annual cost?

I'm sure I'm missing something here - but I would like enlightenment.

--
Widening this slightly I really find it hard to understand that there can be any benefits in "utility competition" as against them being state-run - for energy, water, phone, railways . . .  with duplicaton, waste and the fat-cat director factors.    I'm old enough to remember when there were just regional gas, electricity, water providers, GPO for phones and British Railways - seemed to work OK?

Firstly, Avro is one of the ones on the list but haven’t gone yet.

On price capping the cap is a tariff that equates to £1,200 pa for an average consumer.   If you have a bigger consumption then you pay the same tariff but spend more.

There’s an upcoming issue.   The cap is set in advance of the season and goes up 1st Oct.  Wholesale prices have gone up so much that the cap is now a loss making deal at a gross level for existing suppliers.   Can you think of another industry where you are forced to supply a loss making customer ?

My fix runs out in January and I had a look at Uswitch this morning.  There were only 5 quotes and the cheapest quote was an 800 quid increase pa.

Apologies if I'm being dumb here .... what constitutes an "average consumer" that enjoys the price cap?   Is it an amount of Kwh of each, supplied effectively regardless of the unit/standing charge prices - just an annual maximim payable?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 19 September, 2021, 09:42:31 am
Energy prices are the hot (!) topic in the papers . . .  but something that confuses me is the "price cap" - which I think is that an energy supplier is not permitted to charge in a 12 month period more than a fixed amount to a consumer on a "standard variable tariff" - I think it's about £1,200.

Our supply is with British Gas for both fuels on a fixed rate until February 2022 - with the likely annual amount being close to what I think is the cap value.

Looking sideways at the cap limit etc - if a consumer has a massive mansion and is consuming a vast amout of gas and electricity but opts for a "standard variable tariff" they would have a cap on their annual cost?

I'm sure I'm missing something here - but I would like enlightenment.

--
Widening this slightly I really find it hard to understand that there can be any benefits in "utility competition" as against them being state-run - for energy, water, phone, railways . . .  with duplicaton, waste and the fat-cat director factors.    I'm old enough to remember when there were just regional gas, electricity, water providers, GPO for phones and British Railways - seemed to work OK?

Firstly, Avro is one of the ones on the list but haven’t gone yet.

On price capping the cap is a tariff that equates to £1,200 pa for an average consumer.   If you have a bigger consumption then you pay the same tariff but spend more.

There’s an upcoming issue.   The cap is set in advance of the season and goes up 1st Oct.  Wholesale prices have gone up so much that the cap is now a loss making deal at a gross level for existing suppliers.   Can you think of another industry where you are forced to supply a loss making customer ?

My fix runs out in January and I had a look at Uswitch this morning.  There were only 5 quotes and the cheapest quote was an 800 quid increase pa.

Apologies if I'm being dumb here .... what constitutes an "average consumer" that enjoys the price cap?   Is it an amount of Kwh of each, supplied effectively regardless of the unit/standing charge prices - just an annual maximim payable?

All consumers have the benefit of the price cap.  It’s something like 3,000kWh electricity and 10,000kWh of gas.  For this usage you’d pay £1,200 a year.  If you use more you pay more £s but the same implied tariff.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 19 September, 2021, 09:51:22 am
Energy prices are the hot (!) topic in the papers . . .  but something that confuses me is the "price cap" - which I think is that an energy supplier is not permitted to charge in a 12 month period more than a fixed amount to a consumer on a "standard variable tariff" - I think it's about £1,200.

Our supply is with British Gas for both fuels on a fixed rate until February 2022 - with the likely annual amount being close to what I think is the cap value.

Looking sideways at the cap limit etc - if a consumer has a massive mansion and is consuming a vast amout of gas and electricity but opts for a "standard variable tariff" they would have a cap on their annual cost?

I'm sure I'm missing something here - but I would like enlightenment.

--
Widening this slightly I really find it hard to understand that there can be any benefits in "utility competition" as against them being state-run - for energy, water, phone, railways . . .  with duplicaton, waste and the fat-cat director factors.    I'm old enough to remember when there were just regional gas, electricity, water providers, GPO for phones and British Railways - seemed to work OK?

Firstly, Avro is one of the ones on the list but haven’t gone yet.

On price capping the cap is a tariff that equates to £1,200 pa for an average consumer.   If you have a bigger consumption then you pay the same tariff but spend more.

There’s an upcoming issue.   The cap is set in advance of the season and goes up 1st Oct.  Wholesale prices have gone up so much that the cap is now a loss making deal at a gross level for existing suppliers.   Can you think of another industry where you are forced to supply a loss making customer ?

My fix runs out in January and I had a look at Uswitch this morning.  There were only 5 quotes and the cheapest quote was an 800 quid increase pa.

Apologies if I'm being dumb here .... what constitutes an "average consumer" that enjoys the price cap?   Is it an amount of Kwh of each, supplied effectively regardless of the unit/standing charge prices - just an annual maximim payable?

All consumers have the benefit of the price cap.  It’s something like 3,000kWh electricity and 10,000kWh of gas.  For this usage you’d pay £1,200 a year.  If you use more you pay more £s but the same implied tariff.

Thanks - that now makes sense!


. .  . I stumbled across this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47jr-0-oUfw  which is somewhat revealing - and that AVRO is under "special reporting measures" from OFGEM.   

Our experience in a nutshell - moved to a house supplied by AVRO - tried to move away but thwarted by lack of comunication, and they didn't read meters or want readings submitted for months - finally went to Ombudsam who ruled in our favour with compenastion.   The one thing that was good is that as they failed on the paper-work we never set up a DD - I just calculated our due amount from my meter readings at the correct tarrif and paid them by cheque - so we weren't victim of the DD grabbing/raising that features in the reviews.  Moved to BG in Feb 21 (at much cheaper than AVRO's "best" rate) - still getting "bills and other crap" from AVRO.

Digging around Companies House records it seems that the 27 year old MD and, I assume, his father have fingers in several other businesses.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 19 September, 2021, 02:59:17 pm
It’s understandable.  Alok Sharma was on the news this morning saying energy costs were capped at 1200 quid which isn’t entirely accurate.   The presenter quite rightly said suppliers will go bust at the cap.

Avro have only just been placed under special orders which is frankly a bit late as I think they are done.

As an aside I spotted coming into Stevenage on Phil Ws rather excellent 100k yesterday that they were playing Forest Green.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 19 September, 2021, 04:00:51 pm
Stevenage lost 0-4

Ecotricity’s main sponsorship doing them proud. Top of League Two The Fourth Division
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 19 September, 2021, 05:32:46 pm
Looking at alternatives to BG's standard variable tariffs a few weeks back, prices were not much different other than a few outliers (which it seems aren't around anymore).

I've no issues with competition in markets where there is real competition, but this is basically pretend competition, at best they may do a better job of hedging wholesale supply rates and pushing up their margin a little by shaving off any people costs and replacing support with a chatbot), but once they miscalculate, we all end up picking up the bill.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 September, 2021, 06:58:09 pm
They're just middlemen taking their slice.  Pointless if they can't even hedge properly.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 20 September, 2021, 07:57:18 am
This from a contact of mine on Linkedin :-

When hedging is in the news then things are bad. Hedging should be boring 🤓There is a lot of nonsense going about at the moment, so an explainer*

Hedging is hard. It involves making balanced trade-offs between competing risks and there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

At its most basic level, hedging for energy supply is straightforward - you buy energy for fixed priced customers at the point of sale and for capped customers during the pricing-in window.

But how much do you buy? Do you buy for customers who leave you and customers you will acquire? How many customers will take your standard variable tariff compared to a new fixed tariff? You have to estimate that about a year in advance to get the cap hedge right.

In a world where fixed prices are *double* the commodity cost allowed under the cap, any estimates you made are now wrong.

How much energy are your customers going to use and when? Do you hedge to seasonal normal demand - and face the normal warm-weather risk of having to sell back loss making hedges?

It turns out that when *summer* gas prices are 180p/th all your assumptions were wrong.

The products to hedge evening peak power are not normally available until the day before supply - when they hit £4,000/MWh any premium you included in pricing was wrong.

Hedging costs money. If you were to insure yourself against unthinkable price movements you would spend more than the regulator allows you to recover in profit.

Hedging also benefits players with scale - the balance sheet to hedge forwards more than a year in advance and cover any MtM margin calls. The basis risk inherent in the price cap requires you to be able to see through periods of losses even if you hedge effectively.

When volatility increases you tend to find that liquidity decreases, further limiting your options. This is especially so for small suppliers whose counterparties will all be tightening credit terms.

So anyone who blithely tells you that companies who hedged ‘correctly’ will be fine is talking rubbish. These are unprecedented market movements where previously manageable risks are now a threat to survival.

*these are all generic points so please don’t try to make any inferences about the positions of my current or former employers
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 20 September, 2021, 10:13:14 am
So what are the requirements to set yourself up as an energy supplier – some of them seem very sketchy, no real assets or organization, just an ability to negotiate a few supply contracts, fill in the forms for the suppliers, and set up some billing tools? The risks seem minimal, other than going bust, but they don't seem to have any assets to lose.

It all seems a bit little league Enron. The only benefits seem to be a small number of customers who routinely flip between deals and are lucky enough with any contract periods, but at the end of that day, since wholesale prices are what they are, realistically, those savings will come back as future costs across all suppliers.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 20 September, 2021, 10:46:35 am
Entry requirements used to be minimal and a couple of companies started pre-registering entities using what they called 'supplier in a box'.   The failures you are seeing at the moment are ones that went down that route.   A couple of years back there were some failures and Ofgem increased the market entry requirements.   Bit late.   As an existing supplier you have to provide quarterly reporting on your financial situation and hedging programme.

The wholesale market had consistently delivered low so you could get a natural short position through selling to consumers and not hedging.  Your upside is reasonable and it's only a year ago we had single digit and negative pricing in the UK.   Unfortunately when it goes the other way you lose your shirt and possibly take others down on the way.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 20 September, 2021, 11:05:58 am
Creating a marketplace of energy suppliers based on consistently favourable wholesale pricing seems, to put it politely, short-sighted.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 20 September, 2021, 11:19:06 am
Creating a marketplace of energy suppliers based on consistently favourable wholesale pricing seems, to put it politely, short-sighted.

That probably does some well run companies a disservice, but companies that survive the next couple of months will not be remembered.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 20 September, 2021, 11:24:37 am
If only there were a large stable entity with big - nay, infinite - cash reserves to ride out short term fluctuations in wholesale prices there’d be no need for any of this.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 20 September, 2021, 11:28:17 am
Creating a marketplace of energy suppliers based on consistently favourable wholesale pricing seems, to put it politely, short-sighted.

That probably does some well run companies a disservice, but companies that survive the next couple of months will not be remembered.

I'm not necessarily blaming those companies, more those responsible for creating the marketplace in the first place, and setting the low entry standards for suppliers. This seems a very likely outcome (and of course, we know who will pick up any bills – consumers and taxpayers, not the companies who have failed).

Ultimately, I still struggle to see how this system was supposed to – other than in short term scenarios – benefit consumers.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 20 September, 2021, 12:19:45 pm
It's quite appropriate that a thatcherite is in the hot seat whilst the downside of rampant national asset-stripping and profiteering becomes vulnerable to their own ultimate nirvana of competitive market forces.  No doubt the right wing press will blame Labour, France or the EU in general.

There is likely to be millions of customers, us in the Bear-o-drome included who are about to be shifted to another supplier and subject to a huge hike in our fuel bills.  We can ride that wave fortunately but for the millions on minimum or low wage seeing their UC being reduced, their grocery bills creeping up and their NI increasing to pay for the care of the either comfortable or profligate generation, this is going to be crushing.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 20 September, 2021, 01:02:00 pm
If only there were a large stable entity with big - nay, infinite - cash reserves to ride out short term fluctuations in wholesale prices there’d be no need for any of this.

I think that could be a "government entity" . . .  as was prior to Sid and his share dealing profits.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 20 September, 2021, 02:54:29 pm
Creating a marketplace of energy suppliers based on consistently favourable wholesale pricing seems, to put it politely, short-sighted.

That probably does some well run companies a disservice, but companies that survive the next couple of months will not be remembered.

I'm not necessarily blaming those companies, more those responsible for creating the marketplace in the first place, and setting the low entry standards for suppliers. This seems a very likely outcome (and of course, we know who will pick up any bills – consumers and taxpayers, not the companies who have failed).

Ultimately, I still struggle to see how this system was supposed to – other than in short term scenarios – benefit consumers.

Privatisation was never intended to benefit the customer but many were dumb enough to believe the lies.  Hmmm, a similar scenario to berxit: I wonder which political faction was in power for both of these extreme examples of greed and corruption for the benefit of the elite?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 21 September, 2021, 12:05:10 am
Another four smaller suppliers are expected to go bust imminently as they can't afford to supply gas at the prices customers have paid.  It really is a shitshow.  I blame Thatcher.  Tell Sid he's a grifting capitalist bastard.

I'm hoping that one the candidates is AVRO after our experience with them . . .  it seems that reviews are now almost all 1star with dire customer service and potential illegal witholding of funds to be returned etc (the older reviews looked as if they cam from the same hand . . . ? AVRO themsleves?)

We're with AVRO, so that'd be good...  ;) 

No issues for 2+yrs, so far.  Have seen this...


Quote
On the 19th August 2021, Ofgem requested information from Avro Energy. They failed to comply with this request and so Ofgem issued a Provisional Order on the 14th September which compelled them to provide this information immediately.

There has been no public response from Avro Energy so far and this request from Ofgem alone does not mean they are going bust.

It is estimated that Avro has ~600,000 electricity customers, so if they were to go bust this would be one of the biggest suppliers to go out of business in recent years.
https://www.energy-review.co.uk/guides/which-energy-suppliers-are-going-bust/
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 21 September, 2021, 12:08:13 am
Martin Lewis on the subject...

https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1439916406510850055?s=20
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 September, 2021, 06:28:21 am
Burning gas for power generation was always squandering a finite resource, too useful for domestic heating (and as a chemical feedstock).  When I was growing up, it wasn't really a thing - power was from coal (we are still sitting on 250 years' supply in the UK alone) or nuclear.

The realisation of anthropogenic global warming has made coal unacceptable, but the "dash for gas" was actually done for economic reasons, not environmental.  The only big issue with coal plants in the late 80s was acid rain, eventually addressed with FGD scrubbers* 

With hindsight, we should have gone straight to renewable and nuclear from coal, and ignored gas.  Most of the UK's carbon reduction over the laat decade was due to a switch from coal to gas, which doesn't look too clever now.

*which supplied a large proportion of gypsum for plasterboard, now more expensive as the supply reduces
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 September, 2021, 06:35:06 am
This from a contact of mine on Linkedin :-

When hedging is in the news then things are bad. Hedging should be boring 🤓There is a lot of nonsense going about at the moment, so an explainer*

Hedging is hard. It involves making balanced trade-offs between competing risks and there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

At its most basic level, hedging for energy supply is straightforward - you buy energy for fixed priced customers at the point of sale and for capped customers during the pricing-in window.

But how much do you buy? Do you buy for customers who leave you and customers you will acquire? How many customers will take your standard variable tariff compared to a new fixed tariff? You have to estimate that about a year in advance to get the cap hedge right.

In a world where fixed prices are *double* the commodity cost allowed under the cap, any estimates you made are now wrong.

How much energy are your customers going to use and when? Do you hedge to seasonal normal demand - and face the normal warm-weather risk of having to sell back loss making hedges?

It turns out that when *summer* gas prices are 180p/th all your assumptions were wrong.

The products to hedge evening peak power are not normally available until the day before supply - when they hit £4,000/MWh any premium you included in pricing was wrong.

Hedging costs money. If you were to insure yourself against unthinkable price movements you would spend more than the regulator allows you to recover in profit.

Hedging also benefits players with scale - the balance sheet to hedge forwards more than a year in advance and cover any MtM margin calls. The basis risk inherent in the price cap requires you to be able to see through periods of losses even if you hedge effectively.

When volatility increases you tend to find that liquidity decreases, further limiting your options. This is especially so for small suppliers whose counterparties will all be tightening credit terms.

So anyone who blithely tells you that companies who hedged ‘correctly’ will be fine is talking rubbish. These are unprecedented market movements where previously manageable risks are now a threat to survival.

*these are all generic points so please don’t try to make any inferences about the positions of my current or former employers
Yep, hedging is difficult.  My employer does it against interest rates*.  It takes a lot of predictive modelling and, as you say, customer behaviour is the hardest one to call.  Unlike the energy firms, however, the regulator requires us to be hedged - we can't just take the risk.

*before you say "but they haven't changed much for a decade", we're talking about interbank rates here, not the Bank of England MLR.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 21 September, 2021, 08:10:33 am
Am I right in thinking that direct debits may not be the way to pay, if an energy supplier is going to be setting a very high monthly payment, based on projections, and one has a fair latitude to cut down on energy use in the home...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 21 September, 2021, 08:15:12 am
This from a contact of mine on Linkedin :-

When hedging is in the news then things are bad. Hedging should be boring 🤓There is a lot of nonsense going about at the moment, so an explainer*

Hedging is hard. It involves making balanced trade-offs between competing risks and there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

At its most basic level, hedging for energy supply is straightforward - you buy energy for fixed priced customers at the point of sale and for capped customers during the pricing-in window.

But how much do you buy? Do you buy for customers who leave you and customers you will acquire? How many customers will take your standard variable tariff compared to a new fixed tariff? You have to estimate that about a year in advance to get the cap hedge right.

In a world where fixed prices are *double* the commodity cost allowed under the cap, any estimates you made are now wrong.

How much energy are your customers going to use and when? Do you hedge to seasonal normal demand - and face the normal warm-weather risk of having to sell back loss making hedges?

It turns out that when *summer* gas prices are 180p/th all your assumptions were wrong.

The products to hedge evening peak power are not normally available until the day before supply - when they hit £4,000/MWh any premium you included in pricing was wrong.

Hedging costs money. If you were to insure yourself against unthinkable price movements you would spend more than the regulator allows you to recover in profit.

Hedging also benefits players with scale - the balance sheet to hedge forwards more than a year in advance and cover any MtM margin calls. The basis risk inherent in the price cap requires you to be able to see through periods of losses even if you hedge effectively.

When volatility increases you tend to find that liquidity decreases, further limiting your options. This is especially so for small suppliers whose counterparties will all be tightening credit terms.

So anyone who blithely tells you that companies who hedged ‘correctly’ will be fine is talking rubbish. These are unprecedented market movements where previously manageable risks are now a threat to survival.

*these are all generic points so please don’t try to make any inferences about the positions of my current or former employers
Yep, hedging is difficult.  My employer does it against interest rates*.  It takes a lot of predictive modelling and, as you say, customer behaviour is the hardest one to call.  Unlike the energy firms, however, the regulator requires us to be hedged - we can't just take the risk.

*before you say "but they haven't changed much for a decade", we're talking about interbank rates here, not the Bank of England MLR.

Ofgem added some new reporting requirements last year and a hedging report was part of that.   What it doesn't say is what they do with the information other than go 'oh crap'.

The Power sector in particular is illiquid and the only way to hedge at the moment using OTC physical trades which are pretty credit intensive.   There have been several attempts to create a futures market and a proper index which would help, but they have all failed.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 21 September, 2021, 08:21:27 am
Am I right in thinking that direct debits may not be the way to pay, if an energy supplier is going to be setting very high monthly payment, based on projections, and one has a fair latitude to cut down on energy use in the home...

The best deals have always been DD only.   There's less credit risk and less customer interaction.

A lot of industry charges are based on your EAC which is maintained by the industry.   If you, for example, move into a house where there used to be a big family it's quite hard to persuade a supplier to set the DD lower.  It can take up to 18 months for changes in consumption to filter through.

If your supplier goes bust and you're in credit it is protected, though.

The big issue is seasonality as Winter spend is so much higher than Summer.  Customer deposits essentially fund these businesses* so most of them now try to get into the Winter season with a decent credit by customer.   There is a lot of competition for customer contracts that start March April time as the supplier gets the cashflow benefit.


* Loss making, negative equity, positive cash.   Taking on new customers at zero margin to fund the old customers.   Ponzi scheme anyone ?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 21 September, 2021, 08:24:03 am
Am I right in thinking that direct debits may not be the way to pay, if an energy supplier is going to be setting a very high monthly payment, based on projections, and one has a fair latitude to cut down on energy use in the home...

Without question - when we inherited AVRO as a supplier I refused to give them bank details for DD without confirmation of the price plan . . . that wasn't forthcoming with the lack of communication for 7 months, when they finally did get round to any sort of billing (totally incorrect and wildly high) I just calculated the bill we were liable from the meter reads and price list and paid by credit card.   Thank the Lord I didn't let them loose on my bank account.

So - my recommendation would be to stop the DD you have NOW - they can't cut off your supply (although if you have Smart meters that may be possible???) - and one would expect the stopping of payments to galvanise the into action to communicate on billing.  Any risk to your credit rating is minimal.


EDIT Added:   Our supplier now, BG, bills us monthly for the energy consumed during the month and we pay that figure by DD (that's part of the deal)  - BUT the amount is per month and not spread over the year to balance payments etc.  We're in the perhaps fortunate position to be able to do that with lower bills in the summer and higher in the winter (our house only uses gas for CH/HW)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 21 September, 2021, 08:40:21 am
We're fixed until next Spring - so DD is fine atm - assuming(!) AVRO don't go bust.   They currently have the 'traditional'  DD end of Summer surplus balance.  If they go to the wall, I guess we'll be put on a default capped tariff with EnergyMegaCorp, and have move to n+1 jumpers during the winter.  'parently there are currently calls to axe the price caps...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: nicknack on 21 September, 2021, 08:42:58 am
Who do all these 'suppliers' buy their gas from? Do they buy direct from the producers or are there middlemen?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 21 September, 2021, 08:52:01 am
Who do all these 'suppliers' buy their gas from? Do they buy direct from the producers or are there middlemen?

There is a wholesale market.   You can buy from producers, prop players, banks or other suppliers.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 21 September, 2021, 08:58:19 am
We're fixed until next Spring - so DD is fine atm - assuming(!) AVRO don't go bust.   They currently have the 'traditional'  DD end of Summer surplus balance.  If they go to the wall, I guess we'll be put on a default capped tariff with EnergyMegaCorp, and have move to n+1 jumpers during the winter.  'parently there are currently calls to axe the price caps...

I assume you mean the price is fixed . . .  what appears to be happening is that AVRO (and others) are stepping up the amounts they take on variable DD  . . . with the potential for you to have much more than necessary (or reasonable) in their bank account - it's secure but again they seem reticent about making refunds.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 September, 2021, 08:58:44 am
Who do all these 'suppliers' buy their gas from? Do they buy direct from the producers or are there middlemen?

There is a wholesale market.   You can buy from producers, prop players, banks or other suppliers.
And the landlord of Matt Hancock's local  ;D
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 September, 2021, 09:00:07 am
We're fixed until next Spring - so DD is fine atm - assuming(!) AVRO don't go bust.   They currently have the 'traditional'  DD end of Summer surplus balance.  If they go to the wall, I guess we'll be put on a default capped tariff with EnergyMegaCorp, and have move to n+1 jumpers during the winter.  'parently there are currently calls to axe the price caps...

I assume you mean the price is fixed . . .  what appears to be happening is that AVRO (and others) are stepping up the amounts they take on variable DD  . . . with the potential for you to have much more than necessary (or reasonable) in their bank account - it's secure but again they seem reticent about making refunds.
EON want to increase mine from £41 to £69 although I haven't used significantly more gas - the wood burner has been taking the strain.  Basically, they want a loan.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 21 September, 2021, 09:11:09 am
Had a look at the Octopus quote, currently £700 more p.a. than we're paying, & fixed for 2 yrs.   Wonder if the current rises in wholesale prices are a temporary spike...  $64 000 bn question?

edit. I guess there's a chance the govt may have to step in and support the bigger small energy suppliers...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: nicknack on 21 September, 2021, 09:12:20 am
Who do all these 'suppliers' buy their gas from? Do they buy direct from the producers or are there middlemen?

There is a wholesale market.   You can buy from producers, prop players, banks or other suppliers.
Ta.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 21 September, 2021, 09:16:00 am
Any good regularly updated energy price graph websites to look at?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 21 September, 2021, 09:23:06 am
Any good regularly updated energy price graph websites to look at?

Draw a very steep line upwards starting in the bottom left hand corner......

I have seen price bubbles before and this is different.   What I can say is that high prices are weighted to this Winter, so using power, roughly :-

Winter 21 - 18p/kWh
Summer 22 - 9p/kWh
Winter 22 - 9.5p/kWh
Summer 23 - 7p/kWh

This is wholesale only, delivered to the meter is much higher.

A 2 year deal will take away the pain a bit as you get the benefit of averaging.   

My fix rolls off in Jan and I'm looking at circa £800pa increase.   This also depends how many supplier will be left quoting by then.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 21 September, 2021, 09:36:40 am
I've always stayed off DD, and they really hate that, one of the reasons we're still with BG – they send a bill (it's random whether we get the bill notification by text, email, through the app, or in the post – I have no idea why sending a bill is so difficult, EDF can't do it either) and I pay it. Pretty much all new tariffs demand DD. I'm less keen to offer them a credit line.

Given the business model, I'd imagine many of these 'suppliers' will go bust if prices stay high. Which mean we pay if they do or don't.

I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it, but in many ways, we have become reliant on fuel being cheap. Still, I'm pretty sure the government claimed we were going to lead the world in a green revolution. I wonder how that's working out.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 21 September, 2021, 10:01:39 am
Indeed.  The tories have been claiming since 2010 that they would be the greenest government ever whilst delaying low carbon house building for at least a decade, removing the incentives for renewable generation and concocting the most inaccessible green deal policy.  Electric cars have flourished in spite of a lack of investment in public charging infrastructure and until recently the most unambitious of targets for banning the sale of new fossil burners.

If the UK had forged ahead building onshore and offshore wind instead of closing UK-based turbine manufacturing facilities, allowed more solar farms and invested more in underwater turbine tech as well as pushing ahead with insulating old properties, all of which has been possible to do, then our consumption of fossils would have reduced and this crisis would be more of a blip.

But, a tory never puts investment before short term profit ...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 21 September, 2021, 10:10:39 am
I've always stayed off DD, and they really hate that, one of the reasons we're still with BG – they send a bill (it's random whether we get the bill notification by text, email, through the app, or in the post – I have no idea why sending a bill is so difficult, EDF can't do it either) and I pay it. Pretty much all new tariffs demand DD. I'm less keen to offer them a credit line.

Given the business model, I'd imagine many of these 'suppliers' will go bust if prices stay high. Which mean we pay if they do or don't.

I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it, but in many ways, we have become reliant on fuel being cheap. Still, I'm pretty sure the government claimed we were going to lead the world in a green revolution. I wonder how that's working out.

I have seen this attitude in a couple of discussions in the last few days with customers willing to pay a supplier standard variable rate for their energy.   No-one ever pays standard variable on their mortgage so why the different approach for energy ?   Do you shop around for insurance for example ?

Ignoring the current issues, you have voluntarily been paying more than you need for a vanilla service.   Clearly you have your reasons, but the market has been open for over 20 years and you have voluntarily decided to pay over the odds.   

This isn't a criticism, I'm just interested in the drivers.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 21 September, 2021, 10:22:58 am
I've always stayed off DD, and they really hate that, one of the reasons we're still with BG – they send a bill (it's random whether we get the bill notification by text, email, through the app, or in the post – I have no idea why sending a bill is so difficult, EDF can't do it either) and I pay it. Pretty much all new tariffs demand DD. I'm less keen to offer them a credit line.

Given the business model, I'd imagine many of these 'suppliers' will go bust if prices stay high. Which mean we pay if they do or don't.

I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it, but in many ways, we have become reliant on fuel being cheap. Still, I'm pretty sure the government claimed we were going to lead the world in a green revolution. I wonder how that's working out.

I have seen this attitude in a couple of discussions in the last few days with customers willing to pay a supplier standard variable rate for their energy.   No-one ever pays standard variable on their mortgage so why the different approach for energy ?   Do you shop around for insurance for example ?

Ignoring the current issues, you have voluntarily been paying more than you need for a vanilla service.   Clearly you have your reasons, but the market has been open for over 20 years and you have voluntarily decided to pay over the odds.   

This isn't a criticism, I'm just interested in the drivers.

Not quite sure you're looking at chalk and chalk with the BG billing - we have a fixed tariff but pay each month for consumption on that tariff . . .. I'm guessing that what Ian might mean?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 21 September, 2021, 10:24:15 am
We're fixed until next Spring - so DD is fine atm - assuming(!) AVRO don't go bust.   They currently have the 'traditional'  DD end of Summer surplus balance.  If they go to the wall, I guess we'll be put on a default capped tariff with EnergyMegaCorp, and have move to n+1 jumpers during the winter.  'parently there are currently calls to axe the price caps...

I assume you mean the price is fixed . . .  what appears to be happening is that AVRO (and others) are stepping up the amounts they take on variable DD  . . . with the potential for you to have much more than necessary (or reasonable) in their bank account - it's secure but again they seem reticent about making refunds.
EON want to increase mine from £41 to £69 although I haven't used significantly more gas - the wood burner has been taking the strain.  Basically, they want a loan.

Pretty much how it looks with random DD increases for ostensibly the same consumption on a fixed tariff.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 21 September, 2021, 10:49:27 am
When I did the calculations recently, thinking of a switch, honestly the savings didn't come out much different (leastways, based on our usage). The BG unit rates (then!) were fairly competitive (lower than many other suppliers, though they do have higher standing charges. Possibly I'm doing it wrong, but I didn't see several hundred pound savings (on a total spend of around £1300/year). Peak dual-fuel bills for winter last year were probably £500-600, drops to about £200-250 in summer. BG tend to screw things up in predictable ways, I'm never convinced switching isn't an avenue to problems, no matter what they claim. We spent an age when we moved here trying to convince BG that our meter was metric and not imperial and we really didn't owe them several thousand pounds. I don't want to do that again.

I'm sure plenty of people do pay variable mortgage rates, rates can – and have gone down below what many people are fixed at. You're just self-hedging, the same as the energy companies are with fixed rates.

I am a bit lazy though and not much motivated to spend my evenings comparing quotes to save relatively small amounts of money – though admitted telling L&G to bugger off recently on my house and contents insurance saved me £600+ (mostly because they pissed me off with epic premium hike and when we called them, basically gave us a wevs).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 September, 2021, 01:22:19 pm
At risk of veering off into POBI territory, in May 2016 Bloody Stupid Johnson assured us that leaving the EU would mean our gas bills would be reduced.  On January 1st BRITAIN left the Energy Community, the EU's internal energy market.  Nine and a bit months later, a swift look at wholesale prices in the Energy Community versus those in the Land of UK reveal that to the great surprise of absolutely no-one, the Leave campaign in general and Bloody Stupid Johnson in particular were lying through their teeth.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 21 September, 2021, 03:14:59 pm
I expect that there will be an awful lot of piss poor customer service, gnashing of teeth and wailing at the demands that the likes of BG will be pushing at their transferred in customers.  I am expecting a few interesting conversations especially as we have been recording our energy usage for years so we know what we are likely to need.  We xon't have the official industry stats of course but we have years of meter reading and bills to put our case.  I expect their demands to be high in expectation of it being winter soon and the expectation that we will want to turn the central heating on.

MP's, especially those of the brexit-supporting variety might find themselves with many angry but also many desperate constituents.  This isn't going away any time soon.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 21 September, 2021, 03:51:00 pm
Just bought a dozen C500 gas cartridges for use with the converted trangia.  In the dark hours we might still get one hot meal a day. 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 21 September, 2021, 04:29:03 pm
Just bought a dozen C500 gas cartridges for use with the converted trangia.  In the dark hours we might still get one hot meal a day.
Is it actually and physically possible to turn off the gas supply to lots of domestic users in one go without massive problems turning it back on again?
Gas doesn't seem quite like electricity in that respect.

I understand that the meter can be turned off at each individual house (and possibly remotely if it's a smart meter) but can a street or an area be safely isolated?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 21 September, 2021, 05:11:58 pm
Just bought a dozen C500 gas cartridges for use with the converted trangia.  In the dark hours we might still get one hot meal a day.
Is it actually and physically possible to turn off the gas supply to lots of domestic users in one go without massive problems turning it back on again?
Gas doesn't seem quite like electricity in that respect.

I understand that the meter can be turned off at each individual house (and possibly remotely if it's a smart meter) but can a street or an area be safely isolated?
I don't believe so.

AFAIK, the major gas pipelines are the 'storage' in the UK. They are under fairly high pressure and contain a lot of gas! 

It would probably be possible to turn off gas to areas or streets.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 September, 2021, 06:10:13 pm
Crikey! Taury Kuenssberg is giving Bloody Stupid Johnson a hard time over the sordid business!  'tis the End Times, I tells 'ee!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 21 September, 2021, 06:29:53 pm
It's cheaper to buy kiln-dried wood now.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 21 September, 2021, 08:08:19 pm
I, for one, am relieved when any minister in the current government says it won't come to that. We can relax now.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rafletcher on 21 September, 2021, 08:14:19 pm
It's cheaper to buy kiln-dried wood now.

We’ve just scored our neighbours dead apple tree. The tree folk were happy enough to cut it (relatively) small in exchange for not having to cart it away.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 21 September, 2021, 08:16:14 pm
I, for one, am relieved when any minister in the current government says it won't come to that. We can relax now.

Has a sense of inpending reality about it don't you think?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 21 September, 2021, 08:35:51 pm
It would probably be possible to turn off gas to areas or streets.

I'm sure they have plenty of provision for safe isolation.  The problem is that once you cut the gas supply, you can't turn it back on again until you've at least closed the shut-off valve at each premises, otherwise you risk gas escaping from some appliance that isn't clever enough to turn itself off in the absence of combustion, and potentially going BOOM.

Regardless of whether you take the nice-nicey approach of waiting for everyone to let you in, or using police-assisted gasman powers of entry, that's the sort of thing that takes ages, is expensive to do and pisses lots of people off.

Sort of thing that might actually be a reasonable use of smart meters.  If everyone had smart meters.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2021, 09:09:14 pm
"Police-assisted gasman" has to be a builder from Judge Dredd.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 21 September, 2021, 09:25:24 pm
In my very early days in the industry I was part of a theft of gas working group.  The things people were willing to do to avoid paying for gas were eye opening.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2021, 09:31:16 pm
There's no mains gas in India but theft of electricity is common, by simply clamping cables onto the overhead mains distribution wires. I guess if you wait till one of the daily power cuts to do this, it's relatively safe.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 21 September, 2021, 09:33:20 pm
As students, we broke the bottom off the leccy pay-meter and recycled the same fifty pence.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2021, 09:35:37 pm
An early exercise in the circular (or heptagonal) economy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 21 September, 2021, 09:49:33 pm
In my very early days in the industry I was part of a theft of gas working group.  The things people were willing to do to avoid paying for gas were eye opening.

As illustrated in the Rik Mayall documentary series, Bottom.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 21 September, 2021, 10:00:50 pm
There's no mains gas in India but theft of electricity is common, by simply clamping cables onto the overhead mains distribution wires. I guess if you wait till one of the daily power cuts to do this, it's relatively safe.

Working live gives me the creeps, but last-mile mains voltage electricity is reasonably predictable (it's not going to jump through the air or anything), and can safely be done by those armed with either the right training and appropriate tools or a sufficiency of ignorance and luck.

I suspect that overloads resulting in fires are a bigger problem than electric shock, as electricity thieves aren't likely to be diligent about cable sizes, torque ratings or the use of fuses.  That certainly seems to be where the BRITISH cannabis farmers seem to get it wrong.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 21 September, 2021, 10:20:35 pm
As students, we broke the bottom off the leccy pay-meter and recycled the same fifty pence.

That happened, as well as the seriously rusty coin receptacle.

No idea how all that water got in (an amount equivalent to a frozen 50p...)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 22 September, 2021, 07:31:52 am
There's no mains gas in India but theft of electricity is common, by simply clamping cables onto the overhead mains distribution wires. I guess if you wait till one of the daily power cuts to do this, it's relatively safe.

The crocodile clip (looks like jump lead clamps) technique is also popular in France with "travellers" - seen it several times where they drive onto the municipal sports ground with all the caravans and pickups ... ladder against one of the usual floodlight/streetlamp posts to climb up and jemmy open the distribution box and connect the clips.  They then set up their own "electric grid" around the caravans.   

Presumably the local authority just gives a "Gallic shrug"
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 22 September, 2021, 07:34:20 am
As students, we broke the bottom off the leccy pay-meter and recycled the same fifty pence.
I had a key that fitted most cheap padlocks.  Far more sophisticated.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 22 September, 2021, 09:29:45 am
As students, we broke the bottom off the leccy pay-meter and recycled the same fifty pence.
I had a key that fitted most cheap padlocks.  Far more sophisticated.

We hit it with a brick until it gave up the goods. We weren't entirely evil, our landlord refused to fix the hole in the roof, and his son had a habit of burgling the house while we were out (not sure why, we never had anything worth nicking, but he wasn't exactly one of the smart kids). So we got our own recompense and it let us run the electric bar fires all winter. We ran off before he got the actual bill.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 22 September, 2021, 03:06:49 pm
Avro Energy has "gone up the pictures" as they say - together with Green.   Avro website has a statement on the Home page and Green ws on the BBC news.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 22 September, 2021, 03:12:27 pm
Avro Energy has "gone up the pictures" as they say - together with Green.   Avro website has a statement on the Home page and Green ws on the BBC news.

Got there before me.   There's probably 3 or 4 others in the wings.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 22 September, 2021, 04:04:45 pm
Avro Energy has "gone up the pictures" as they say - together with Green.   Avro website has a statement on the Home page and Green ws on the BBC news.

Yep, boom.

Glad I decided to download all my statements the other day.

On the website:

Quote

Avro Energy is ceasing to trade. Ofgem, the energy regulator, is appointing a new supplier for its customers.
Customers need not worry, their supplies are secure and domestic credit balances are protected.
Ofgem’s advice is not to switch, but to wait until they appoint a new supplier for you. This will help make sure that the process of handing customers over to a new supplier, and honouring domestic customers’ credit balances, is as hassle free as possible for customers.
Support and advice is available on the Ofgem website for both domestic customers and non-domestic customers. Alternatively, if customers need additional support, they can call Citizens Advice on 0808 223 1133 or email them via their webform. Advice will also be shared on Ofgem’s twitter @ofgem and facebook channels.

So I guess, we'll be on the cap + any additional expenditure.  Perhaps i should have gone for that e-on 2 yr fixed deal in April...  ;)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 22 September, 2021, 04:36:31 pm
Avro Energy has "gone up the pictures" as they say - together with Green.   Avro website has a statement on the Home page and Green ws on the BBC news.

Yep, boom.

Glad I decided to download all my statements the other day.

On the website:

Quote

Avro Energy is ceasing to trade. Ofgem, the energy regulator, is appointing a new supplier for its customers.
Customers need not worry, their supplies are secure and domestic credit balances are protected.
Ofgem’s advice is not to switch, but to wait until they appoint a new supplier for you. This will help make sure that the process of handing customers over to a new supplier, and honouring domestic customers’ credit balances, is as hassle free as possible for customers.
Support and advice is available on the Ofgem website for both domestic customers and non-domestic customers. Alternatively, if customers need additional support, they can call Citizens Advice on 0808 223 1133 or email them via their webform. Advice will also be shared on Ofgem’s twitter @ofgem and facebook channels.

So I guess, we'll be on the cap + any additional expenditure.  Perhaps i should have gone for that e-on 2 yr fixed deal in April...  ;)

Depending on the new supplier post-AVRO try phoning, yes phoning British Gas . . .  I got a better than advertised fixed deal from them . . . don't know why but it was a good 10% better on our annual cost.   I also got some worthless insurance cover of some sort as well as a discount on the boiler service - we had to agree to Smart Meters but that was fine with us.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: vorsprung on 22 September, 2021, 04:45:59 pm
As students, we broke the bottom off the leccy pay-meter and recycled the same fifty pence.
I had a key that fitted most cheap padlocks.  Far more sophisticated.

I replaced the meter completely with another one from a wrecked house.  I also wired it up to run backwards
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 22 September, 2021, 04:55:07 pm
Avro Energy has "gone up the pictures" as they say - together with Green.   Avro website has a statement on the Home page and Green was on the BBC news.

Clearly there will be an unfortunate loss of employment for quite a few people . . . Green has 250,000 customers and 180 employees (according to news reports), that seems a high ratio to me given that the business is essentially a database, billing system, energy trading and accounting function - AVRO has 580,000 customers . . .  I wonder how many staff?

Edit: Just seen some info that says AVRO has 18 staff !! https://rocketreach.co/avro-energy-limited-management_b4428a07fa2291f0  - seems low?   [Three of the names I recognise from my dealings with them]
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 22 September, 2021, 07:53:35 pm
When we go on the Ofgem appointed company cap tariff, if we keep our consumption down to the 'average user' and '£1277pa', hopefully be <£150 more until April 2022.  Maybe.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 22 September, 2021, 08:22:50 pm
Avro Energy has "gone up the pictures" as they say - together with Green.   Avro website has a statement on the Home page and Green was on the BBC news.

Clearly there will be an unfortunate loss of employment for quite a few people . . . Green has 250,000 customers and 180 employees (according to news reports), that seems a high ratio to me given that the business is essentially a database, billing system, energy trading and accounting function - AVRO has 580,000 customers . . .  I wonder how many staff?

Edit: Just seen some info that says AVRO has 18 staff !! https://rocketreach.co/avro-energy-limited-management_b4428a07fa2291f0  - seems low?   [Three of the names I recognise from my dealings with them]

The benchmark is 1 employee per 1,000 customers, or it used to be.   Not a bad ratio for Green.  It is possible to set a supplier up and outsource a lot of the donkey work.  There’s at least 2 dedicated firms that do this but the recent collapses will have a knock on into that sector, so Avro may have gone down that route.

Incidentally I provide wholesale market access to energy players.  I’m down 5 clients already and it’s year end next week.  It’s a good job we have other things going on.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 22 September, 2021, 08:44:16 pm
I wonder how the apparent concern by the big players taking on new customers (from bust companies) at loss making capped tariffs is going to play out...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 22 September, 2021, 09:25:08 pm
I wonder how the apparent concern by the big players taking on new customers (from bust companies) at loss making capped tariffs is going to play out...

Govt wording is the cap will stay but I wonder if they will increase it.

The cap is reviewed again in April and I wonder if the big guys can find the losses for 6 months before improving returns next Summer.   It’s a gamble, though.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 23 September, 2021, 11:21:08 am
Ofgem website has details about which companies are taking on the new customers from bust companies. 

If energy prices don't fall, the potential for knock on effects across the economy and supply chains would seem to be massive.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 23 September, 2021, 12:32:27 pm
Having followed various threads I was somewhat taken aback to see that AVRO was granted a licence in 2015 with a 22 year-old managing director with no track record in the energy industry.   I would have expected whoever grants the licences to want a bit more experience?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 23 September, 2021, 12:55:23 pm
The Standard Conditions for a Gas Supplier Licence on OFGEM's webby SCIENCE run to about four hundred pages, so they probably figured anyone who even made a stab at reading them was worth a punt.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 September, 2021, 01:00:13 pm
Having followed various threads I was somewhat taken aback to see that AVRO was granted a licence in 2015 with a 22 year-old managing director with no track record in the energy industry.   I would have expected whoever grants the licences to want a bit more experience?

The supply licence review which looked at this very issue commenced Nov-18 and took over a year.   All of the current failures set up shop before the review started.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 23 September, 2021, 01:12:05 pm
Indeed. I'm not sure what they were thinking in the first instance when it seems even the average pet cat could have put up the good to become a supplier. It's not like energy supply is an important part of the national infrastructure. Probably the same people who downgraded our gas storage to the point we're mostly dependant on spot pricing and strategic flatulence.

Our local gasholders were recently turned into the usual rash of expensive crapflats.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 September, 2021, 02:05:08 pm
When your KPI is the number of available suppliers in the market.....
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 23 September, 2021, 02:05:33 pm
Having followed various threads I was somewhat taken aback to see that AVRO was granted a licence in 2015 with a 22 year-old managing director with no track record in the energy industry.   I would have expected whoever grants the licences to want a bit more experience?

Smacks of Seaborne or whatever it was called.  You remember?  That ferry company with no ferries and no experience of freight.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 23 September, 2021, 06:05:15 pm
Having followed various threads I was somewhat taken aback to see that AVRO was granted a licence in 2015 with a 22 year-old managing director with no track record in the energy industry.   I would have expected whoever grants the licences to want a bit more experience?

Smacks of Seaborne or whatever it was called.  You remember?  That ferry company with no ferries and no experience of freight.

Which begs the question: did they accidentally put Fayling Grayling in charge of energy policy?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 23 September, 2021, 09:25:14 pm
When your KPI is the number of available suppliers in the market.....

They're not really suppliers either are they?
Resellers, collators of data, gamblers, yes.

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 24 September, 2021, 07:32:50 am
Having followed various threads I was somewhat taken aback to see that AVRO was granted a licence in 2015 with a 22 year-old managing director with no track record in the energy industry.   I would have expected whoever grants the licences to want a bit more experience?


... another item that popped up was about another company that the MD owns that received £2.5million from AVRO for "management services" ... and that company has some interesting Directors' Loans figures in its most recent accounts.  Looks like the auditors will be interested?

What is remarkable with AVRO is that between the start-up in 2017 and now they had (at the failure) almost 600,000 customers . . that's big when compared with the other longer-established failures.   
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 September, 2021, 05:57:24 pm
Having followed various threads I was somewhat taken aback to see that AVRO was granted a licence in 2015 with a 22 year-old managing director with no track record in the energy industry.   I would have expected whoever grants the licences to want a bit more experience?


... another item that popped up was about another company that the MD owns that received £2.5million from AVRO for "management services" ... and that company has some interesting Directors' Loans figures in its most recent accounts.  Looks like the auditors will be interested?

What is remarkable with AVRO is that between the start-up in 2017 and now they had (at the failure) almost 600,000 customers . . that's big when compared with the other longer-established failures.

Taking money out of businesses using loans is not uncommon.  If you dig into Ecotricity’s accounts you will find similar.  Annoyingly auditors don’t usually care about this sort of stuff.  The regulator should maybe take an interest but they probably have their hands full.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 24 September, 2021, 06:09:44 pm
Indeed, SOP for many businesses these days. Also obliging those businesses to use the services of your other businesses, and if they need it (which they probably will), you can also lend them the money at a non-competitive interest rate to do so.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 September, 2021, 06:44:47 pm
There’s another knock on.  Avro had bought a stake in a service provider - Dyball - that also provided services to other suppliers.  The collapse of one supplier could take out another even if that organisation is sensibly run.

There are several software companies and a large gas operation provider that could also be tipped over.  We’re talking thousands of jobs in the sector.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 24 September, 2021, 07:04:09 pm
There’s another knock on.  Avro had bought a stake in a service provider - Dyball - that also provided services to other suppliers.  The collapse of one supplier could take out another even if that organisation is sensibly run.

There are several software companies and a large gas operation provider that could also be tipped over.  We’re talking thousands of jobs in the sector.

. . .  and Sentido Marketing Limited (that's the outfit that got the £2.5m from AVRO) - from the directors in the interwoven web of companies it looks like two brothers and their father control quite a few businesses that could well be going to collapse like the proverbial house of cards.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 24 September, 2021, 08:01:40 pm
Clearly the nation's energy security requires far tougher legislation and significantly more control.  I doubt that this bunch of chancers will countenance such measures.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 26 September, 2021, 10:53:37 pm
AVRO customers are being moved to Octopus; have had an email. 

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Edd on 29 September, 2021, 03:44:08 pm
Well that's igloo moving under, only moved to them 3-4 months ago. I'll have to see who I get moved to and then move again to a green supplier, probably bulb (who I was with before) or octopus if they are still around when it all comes out the wash. Shame, I kind of liked them
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 29 September, 2021, 03:50:16 pm
Well that's igloo moving under, only moved to them 3-4 months ago. I'll have to see who I get moved to and then move again to a green supplier, probably bulb (who I was with before) or octopus if they are still around when it all comes out the wash. Shame, I kind of liked them

Bulb are out for additional funding so take care.   Industry runmour mill says they are next.

Octopus agreed a massive tranche of extra funding this week so as safe as you can be in what is an incredibly crap sector.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 29 September, 2021, 03:57:15 pm
3 more on the BBC news (incl Igloo) this afternoon
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 02 October, 2021, 05:54:50 pm
Bulb (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/02/energy-firm-bulb-under-fire-for-monthly-bill-rises-of-up-to-80) are looking a bit precarious and unethical imo just now.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 October, 2021, 06:02:36 pm
Bulb (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/02/energy-firm-bulb-under-fire-for-monthly-bill-rises-of-up-to-80) are looking a bit precarious and unethical imo just now.
A lot of people who opt for suppliers such as Bulb, do so because of their renewable energy tariffs. They're concerned about ethicality in that "sustainability" sense, which tends to be the sense that gets most attention as well. But billing practices and treatment of staff are probably equally important in the long run (as well as forming an equally if not more important part of "Sustainable Development Goals").
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 02 October, 2021, 07:15:40 pm
Bulb (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/02/energy-firm-bulb-under-fire-for-monthly-bill-rises-of-up-to-80) are looking a bit precarious and unethical imo just now.

Upping the DD by a massive amount was what the now dead AVRO was doing - just for cashflow.   I'm glad I didn't succumb to a DD before escaping their clutches.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: DaveReading on 03 October, 2021, 08:20:44 am
Bulb (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/02/energy-firm-bulb-under-fire-for-monthly-bill-rises-of-up-to-80) are looking a bit precarious and unethical imo just now.

Upping the DD by a massive amount was what the now dead AVRO was doing - just for cashflow.   I'm glad I didn't succumb to a DD before escaping their clutches.

Indeed.  Mine was due to go up from £113 to £153, despite my being having a £200+ credit balance - I was about to have strong words with them when they folded.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 09 October, 2021, 04:18:31 pm
No issues with our AVRO DDs but apparently suppliers have a duty to keep DD payments fair, and can be challenged via the Ofgem, I believe.

Pressure on the price cap...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58852612

Lebanon's gone dark.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/09/lebanon-hit-by-electricity-outage-expected-to-last-several-days
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 10 October, 2021, 06:52:16 pm
Looking like 4 more supplier failures this week. 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 10 October, 2021, 08:35:03 pm
Any clues or is that just too much of a risk?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 10 October, 2021, 08:36:45 pm
Any clues or is that just too much of a risk?

Pretty public to be honest.  If you dig around.

Home Hero
GoTo
Omni
Pure Planet

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 10 October, 2021, 08:44:13 pm
Cheers.

Have to say that my good fu is utter crap as my searches didn't throw up any of those names, and, I have never before heard of any of them.

Still tip of the iceberg I guess.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 10 October, 2021, 08:54:05 pm
Cheers.

Have to say that my good fu is utter crap as my searches didn't throw up any of those names, and, I have never before heard of any of them.

Still tip of the iceberg I guess.

Pure Planet is the most notable one as they made a big deal on market entry and touted the fact BP had invested in them.  It was in Sky News earlier.

You can see people go into energy credit default on one of the industry website.  Ofgem have also been naming and shaming those that haven’t paid their industry charges on time.  I was on an industry panel at a conference last week and it was properly depressing.  Things will recover slowly but the market needs to change and Ofgem and the Govt have their heads in the sand.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 October, 2021, 09:11:58 am
I think we are with Pure Planet - at the moment, at least! 
We'll see what happens when they fall over.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 13 October, 2021, 06:30:32 pm
I think we are with Pure Planet - at the moment, at least! 
We'll see what happens when they fall over.

And another one two bite the dust (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58903122).  Pure Planet and Colorado Energy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 October, 2021, 07:13:54 pm
Should we be betting on the next energy companies to go bust each week?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 13 October, 2021, 09:22:58 pm
Should we be betting on the next energy companies to go bust each week?

I’m probably not allowed to take part.

I went out to a social last week and for the first time in my life I dreaded being asked what I do for a living.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 14 October, 2021, 09:43:09 am
Tell them the truth, I specialize in clown-themed assassinations.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 October, 2021, 09:53:02 am
I think we are with Pure Planet - at the moment, at least! 
We'll see what happens when they fall over.

And another one two bite the dust (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58903122).  Pure Planet and Colorado Energy.

They took our direct debit yesterday just before they rolled over - two days earlier than expected.  I've done photos of the meters and will wait for someone to get in touch...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 October, 2021, 09:53:21 am
“Don’t tell my mother that my job is X*.  She thinks I play the piano in a brothel!”

* Variously seen in the wild as “in advertising”, “editor of the D**ly M**l” and – pace Andrij – “in defense for the Cleveland Browns”.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 October, 2021, 09:53:54 am

I went out to a social last week and for the first time in my life I dreaded being asked what I do for a living.


You could say that you are a fortune teller!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 14 October, 2021, 10:05:44 am
I think we are with Pure Planet - at the moment, at least! 
We'll see what happens when they fall over.

And another one two bite the dust (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58903122).  Pure Planet and Colorado Energy.



They took our direct debit yesterday just before they rolled over - two days earlier than expected.  I've done photos of the meters and will wait for someone to get in touch...

Stop the DD NOW - and if you (still) have access to any online data for readings/cash etc then screenshot that NOW
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 14 October, 2021, 10:39:54 am
I think we are with Pure Planet - at the moment, at least! 
We'll see what happens when they fall over.

And another one two bite the dust (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58903122).  Pure Planet and Colorado Energy.

They took our direct debit yesterday just before they rolled over - two days earlier than expected.  I've done photos of the meters and will wait for someone to get in touch...

I'm afraid this is becoming increasingly common.   I have my theories on what's going on here but posting them on a public forum is not a great strategy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 October, 2021, 10:56:44 am
Info check, please (I guess this is for felstedrider).

(based on reading of news reports)
The UK has very very little gas storage, compared to the EU.
UK gas usage is very low compared to the EU.
UK gas storage is currently nearly full.

Therefore the issues with energy suppliers is purely that they can't afford to pay the wholesale prices.

Why were some factories, such as CO2 producers, asked to cut back on gas use?  Was that purely to maintain the cushion of gas in the limited storage facilities?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 14 October, 2021, 11:16:14 am
Info check, please (I guess this is for felstedrider).

(based on reading of news reports)
The UK has very very little gas storage, compared to the EU.
UK gas usage is very low compared to the EU.
UK gas storage is currently nearly full.

Therefore the issues with energy suppliers is purely that they can't afford to pay the wholesale prices.

Why were some factories, such as CO2 producers, asked to cut back on gas use?  Was that purely to maintain the cushion of gas in the limited storage facilities?

Running back a little.   Gas prices high because :-

- Late Spring with cold temps
- European gas storage stayed low and has not been replenished in time for Winter
- Flows from Russia lower than expected
- LNG cargoes going to the Far East as prices are higher there

The UK is suffering as it's at the end of the supply chain and we hardly have any storage.   Flows from the North Sea and Norway are maxed out.   If we get a cold Winter then supply will be short.

All this is a perfect storm and gas prices are now about £2.50/Th which is 5 times higher than previous Winters.   Power generation remains at 40-50% coming from gas so power prices are up as well.

Suppliers are failing as 1) they haven't hedged* and 2) the existing price cap generates annual losses of circa £500 per customer on average usage.   Why bother continuing to run a business that just generates a loss ?   This is actually the tail end of what has been a race to the bottom for supply - there's been no money in it for ages and too many participants.   The high prices have just brought forward what may have happened anyway.

Large consumers have been turning off because prices are high and they can't pass the increased costs onto their customers.   Some of them may be on interruptible contracts which allows Grid to turn them off on days when demand is high.   For some reason these businesses are worth saving but energy suppliers aren't.


*hedging is actually really difficult for domestic suppliers.   Liquidity, shape an collateral being the biggest issues.   Kwarteng's comments about suppliers being irresponsibly run is not entirely correct.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 14 October, 2021, 12:31:37 pm
Why were some factories, such as CO2 producers, asked to cut back on gas use?  Was that purely to maintain the cushion of gas in the limited storage facilities?

I thought they were just holding out for lower prices.  If you're a maker of fertiliser[1], and you've already made enough fertiliser to cover your contracts you might stop making fertiliser for a bit, do some maintenance or something, and wait for the price to come down.


[1] Not in the Westminster sense.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 October, 2021, 01:59:54 pm
I think we are with Pure Planet - at the moment, at least! 
We'll see what happens when they fall over.

And another one two bite the dust (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58903122).  Pure Planet and Colorado Energy.

They took our direct debit yesterday just before they rolled over - two days earlier than expected.  I've done photos of the meters and will wait for someone to get in touch...

I'm afraid this is becoming increasingly common.   I have my theories on what's going on here but posting them on a public forum is not a great strategy.

I should clarify - turns out that what I said regarding the DD was incorrect.  My wife thought they'd taken it but it was just the notification
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 14 October, 2021, 02:32:17 pm
   For some reason these businesses are worth saving but energy suppliers aren't.

None of the “energy suppliers” who’ve gone had any discernible energy supplying assets, did they?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 14 October, 2021, 02:40:19 pm
   For some reason these businesses are worth saving but energy suppliers aren't.

None of the “energy suppliers” who’ve gone had any discernible energy supplying assets, did they?

None at all.   The vertical integration model is pretty unfashionable these days although the bigger guys have mostly kept their renewable assets.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 15 October, 2021, 01:15:58 pm
It seems Pure Planet's demise was hastened by the withdrawal of their trading partner (and minority shareholder).   There are quite a few disgruntled employees posting about this on Linkedin.

Another small one also went yesterday with little fanfare.

There is a slightly bigger issue in that one of the gas specific service providers in the sector also went under 2 days ago.   If you believe the press they looked after 18 independent suppliers.   I suspect this will have a significant knock-on effect and push a few more over in the coming days.

Basically the industry is a shambles.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 16 October, 2021, 01:15:30 pm
Also with Pure Planet (until I get allocated a new provider by Ofgem).  I don't really understand this, Pure Planet were 100% renewable electricity providers, so should have been immune to gas price changes for their electricity.  Could they not have just closed their gas provision and continued as an electricity provider?  The £5 (ish) annual dual fuel reduction isn't be all and end all.
The other Dr fd3 has told me that we can't go with octopus as they are refusing any new customers because their prices are too high.  Will have a look about for a new 100% renewable provider (probably end up back with Good Energy, who were more expensive than Pure Planet, but more importantly couldn't send a clear bill to save their lives).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Ham on 16 October, 2021, 01:27:21 pm
Pure planet don't make their own energy so are as subject to fluctuations as anyone else. You can't buy renewable cheaper than "normal" power in the market place - if you consider that for a second you'll see why.

  Will have a look about for a new 100% renewable provider (probably end up back with Good Energy, who were more expensive than Pure Planet, but more importantly couldn't send a clear bill to save their lives).

Forget it, switching to save is a thing of the past for the immediate future, the price cap you rate you will be put on is cheaper than anything in the market because it is less than cost.

Competition and switching may be useful in the future but for the moment, just suck it up.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 16 October, 2021, 04:48:55 pm
Not switching to save, just want a 100% renewable supplier.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rafletcher on 16 October, 2021, 04:58:57 pm
Not switching to save, just want a 100% renewable supplier.

Try SO Energy.  Small, but owned by ESB of Ireland.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 16 October, 2021, 07:36:47 pm
Not switching to save, just want a 100% renewable supplier.

Try SO Energy.  Small, but owned by ESB of Ireland.

Octopus
Ovo
Good Energy
Eon Next
Green Energy UK

Read the small print.  All green tariffs are not the same.

So’s offering is backed direct from a wind farm or two so auditable back to source.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 16 October, 2021, 09:28:05 pm
Octopus are not taking on any customers atm.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Pedal Castro on 17 October, 2021, 07:06:16 am
Not switching to save, just want a 100% renewable supplier.

Try SO Energy.  Small, but owned by ESB of Ireland.

That's who we are with. It's not that every electron we use is wind generated but they are adding theirs to the general sea of electrons.  ;D
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 18 October, 2021, 04:57:22 pm
Any clues or is that just too much of a risk?

Pretty public to be honest.  If you dig around.

Home Hero
GoTo
Omni
Pure Planet

One left.

(HomeHero was the trading name of Colorado)

There’s some other issues in that one major gavservice provider that looked after 18 small suppliers also failed last week.   This has the potential for a domino effect downstream.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 18 October, 2021, 09:10:08 pm
Just been moved from Pure Planet to ... Shell!

I am actually torn, as I would be inclined to stay wit them for gas as whichever gas provider I am with will lose money due to the cap on gas prices (IIUC - which is a big caveat).  I do want a 100% renewable provider for Electricity though, as the 100% rate Shell do is them being forced to have some green production and greenwashing an eco rate (IIUC - similar caveat).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 18 October, 2021, 09:17:29 pm
Shell claim to buy all their electricity from renewable providers which is about all any of them can do unless they also generate.
That's not the same as all the electricity coming into your house being entirely renewable.

It's all a greenwash really, even up here unless you know that Torness, Peterheid, Stornoway and Arnish are not producing and the grid connection to the E+W grid is only exporting.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 18 October, 2021, 09:37:52 pm
It must create at least a small price premium for wholesale green energy.

Though the larger effect is going to be making the energy mix of people on non-green tariffs proportionally worse.

And I wonder what happens at times when green energy production is less than demand from customers on green-only contracts. Presumably the promise to customers is vague enough that you can’t create the equivalent of a short-squeeze.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 18 October, 2021, 11:18:59 pm
The wholesale price of electricity is currently circa £200/MWh.  The cost of a REGO is circa £3/MWh.  Biomass REGOs are a little cheaper than wind/solar/hydro.

Ofgem rules say you have to buy enough REGOs pa to cover your total load in order to provide a FMD that is 100% green.  Everything else is just politics and one supplier accusing another of greenwashing is just shits and giggles.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 18 October, 2021, 11:22:57 pm
Just been moved from Pure Planet to ... Shell!

I am actually torn, as I would be inclined to stay wit them for gas as whichever gas provider I am with will lose money due to the cap on gas prices (IIUC - which is a big caveat).  I do want a 100% renewable provider for Electricity though, as the 100% rate Shell do is them being forced to have some green production and greenwashing an eco rate (IIUC - similar caveat).

The cap applies to both gas and power *. At the moment you’ll get the same variable rate from pretty much anyone.

Shell did a pretty big deal with a big biomass generator to buy their power so it depends how you feel about that.

Shell Retail lost £100m in 2020, although to be fair some of that was an acquisition.  They’re not going bust, though.  Shell also supply all the wholesale power to Ovo and Octopus, although both can negotiate renewable PPAs outside of these agreements.


* Edit.  Read your post again and understood better second time round.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 19 October, 2021, 09:38:45 am
Shell claim to buy all their electricity from renewable providers which is about all any of them can do unless they also generate.
That's not the same as all the electricity coming into your house being entirely renewable.

It's all a greenwash really, even up here unless you know that Torness, Peterheid, Stornoway and Arnish are not producing and the grid connection to the E+W grid is only exporting.

I have no idea how you'd tell if the islands are exporting, apart from noticing some turbines 'turned off' on a windy day. Guess that means that the interconnect is exporting at capacity, and can't take any more.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 19 October, 2021, 08:54:23 pm
Just been moved from Pure Planet to ... Shell!

Same here. We'll switch when things settle down.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 20 October, 2021, 04:24:35 pm
Not a bad article on the state of the industry below.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/20/blame-ofgem-energy-company-collapse-utility-point-gas
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 25 October, 2021, 10:31:11 pm
Just been moved from Pure Planet to ... Shell!

Same here. We'll switch when things settle down.
Just watched this
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/joe-lycett-vs-the-oil-giant

I would consider leaving my gas with Shell, if I were sure it would cost them money,
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 26 October, 2021, 09:17:10 pm
Just been moved from Pure Planet to ... Shell!

Same here. We'll switch when things settle down.
Just watched this
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/joe-lycett-vs-the-oil-giant

I would consider leaving my gas with Shell, if I were sure it would cost them money,

Watched that at work today.  Research innit.

We’ve seen Shell, BP and now Total moving in this direction and they have been throwing money at the sector in terms of investments but also recruitment.  I knew some of it was greenwash but the documentary highlighted the scale.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 27 October, 2021, 12:35:15 am
The most annoying thing about the level of greenwash is the accompanying level of STOOPID.
If shell invest in new sources of FF, they will never be able to sell them, because it would require them selling it to the corpses on dying earth.  So why piss that money up against a wall when they could spend it on hard drugs alternatives that would actually make money in 30+ years' time?  They corenered the market for 100 years, why not go for the next 100?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 October, 2021, 09:21:54 am
I think that's underestimating the potential future market for fossil fuels and people's desire for 'economic growth'.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 27 October, 2021, 09:43:05 am
The most annoying thing about the level of greenwash is the accompanying level of STOOPID.
If shell invest in new sources of FF, they will never be able to sell them, because it would require them selling it to the corpses on dying earth.  So why piss that money up against a wall when they could spend it on hard drugs alternatives that would actually make money in 30+ years' time?  They corenered the market for 100 years, why not go for the next 100?

Big corps don't care about the next 100 years.

They care about exceeding projected profits. That is what drives up share price. Increased share price means increased, huge, bonuses for board members.

The board members will each only be around for a few years. Their primary driver is to increase their personal earnings; and that is best done by being focused on each year's profits.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 October, 2021, 10:08:02 am
And the same for the purchasers of fuels, both as corporations and nations. Leaders of some nations, such as China, are freed of the need to think to the next election cycle, but national survival will be increased by making the nation richer. Burning coal now to manufacture tqt to sell to the West for hard dollars increases the nation's ability to eg feed itself in the future. This is obviously all amplified when no one really trusts anyone else to actually implement meaningful measures.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: arabella on 28 October, 2021, 11:57:02 am
The most annoying thing about the level of greenwash is the accompanying level of STOOPID.
If shell invest in new sources of FF, they will never be able to sell them, because it would require them selling it to the corpses on dying earth.  So why piss that money up against a wall when they could spend it on hard drugs alternatives that would actually make money in 30+ years' time?  They corenered the market for 100 years, why not go for the next 100?

Big corps don't care about the next 100 years.

They care about exceeding projected profits. That is what drives up share price. Increased share price means increased, huge, bonuses for board members.

The board members will each only be around for a few years. Their primary driver is to increase their personal earnings; and that is best done by being focused on each year's profits.

I'm reminded of this article: The Dumbest Idea In The World: Maximizing Shareholder Value (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/28/maximizing-shareholder-value-the-dumbest-idea-in-the-world/)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 28 October, 2021, 12:40:56 pm
The most annoying thing about the level of greenwash is the accompanying level of STOOPID.
If shell invest in new sources of FF, they will never be able to sell them, because it would require them selling it to the corpses on dying earth.  So why piss that money up against a wall when they could spend it on hard drugs alternatives that would actually make money in 30+ years' time?  They corenered the market for 100 years, why not go for the next 100?

Big corps don't care about the next 100 years.

They care about exceeding projected profits. That is what drives up share price. Increased share price means increased, huge, bonuses for board members.

The board members will each only be around for a few years. Their primary driver is to increase their personal earnings; and that is best done by being focused on each year's profits.

I'm reminded of this article: The Dumbest Idea In The World: Maximizing Shareholder Value (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/28/maximizing-shareholder-value-the-dumbest-idea-in-the-world/)
I'd take issue with some of the points in the article. The board, mostly the CFO and CEO, 'manage' expectations of the stock market and shareholders.
Sure, they are expected to announce increased profits each year. However they can also do well by predicting 'poor' years, with lower growth than previous years - then slightly outperform the prediction.

The main thrust of the article, that boards are not motivated to improve the company, but improve share price is absolutely correct.

It doesn't matter if they are driving the company into the ground, and it will fail in 10 years. What matters is the next year, stock price, and bonuses.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 28 October, 2021, 12:50:41 pm
Indeed. The last place I worked at, the CEO was pocketing >$20million in share options (and pretty much all the senior management were heavily reliant on similar), so they're not just focused on shareholders, they're very focused on themselves. If they tank the company next year, they're still rich. If they don't, they're richer. There's no failure mode for them.

The other thing was that the business ultimately existed to pay off interest on the huge pile of debt – which is more often the case, every acquisition and merger just accumulates more debt, so the day-to-day business is to service that debt while meeting shareholder expectations on a quarterly and annual basis. Any planning beyond that is merely to reinforce the current year's expectations.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 October, 2021, 01:24:39 pm
Indeed. The last place I worked at, the CEO was pocketing >$20million in share options (and pretty much all the senior management were heavily reliant on similar), so they're not just focused on shareholders, they're very focused on themselves. If they tank the company next year, they're still rich. If they don't, they're richer. There's no failure mode for them.

The other thing was that the business ultimately existed to pay off interest on the huge pile of debt – which is more often the case, every acquisition and merger just accumulates more debt, so the day-to-day business is to service that debt while meeting shareholder expectations on a quarterly and annual basis. Any planning beyond that is merely to reinforce the current year's expectations.
Remarkably similar to a third-world country.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: citoyen on 28 October, 2021, 01:29:12 pm
I would consider leaving my gas with Shell, if I were sure it would cost them money,

I heard that nice Martin Lewis on the radio the other day. He said if you’ve been moved, you’ll be on the capped tariff by default and there’s no point switching because you won’t get a better deal on a fixed tariff from any supplier right now. 

We’re also on Shell now, and not planning to move while it’s costing them money for the privilege of having us as customers. 
 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 28 October, 2021, 02:14:25 pm
Indeed. The last place I worked at, the CEO was pocketing >$20million in share options (and pretty much all the senior management were heavily reliant on similar), so they're not just focused on shareholders, they're very focused on themselves. If they tank the company next year, they're still rich. If they don't, they're richer. There's no failure mode for them.

The other thing was that the business ultimately existed to pay off interest on the huge pile of debt – which is more often the case, every acquisition and merger just accumulates more debt, so the day-to-day business is to service that debt while meeting shareholder expectations on a quarterly and annual basis. Any planning beyond that is merely to reinforce the current year's expectations.
Remarkably similar to a third-world country.

I'd never thought of it that way, but you're very correct, it's a good analogy. The country labours, in a considerable part, to service debt while the leaders and the lenders pocket the profits.

That said, you can apply the same to most countries, they're all based on huge piles of debt (and the value of debt is literally set by expectation).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 28 October, 2021, 08:36:09 pm
I would consider leaving my gas with Shell, if I were sure it would cost them money,

I heard that nice Martin Lewis on the radio the other day. He said if you’ve been moved, you’ll be on the capped tariff by default and there’s no point switching because you won’t get a better deal on a fixed tariff from any supplier right now. 

We’re also on Shell now, and not planning to move while it’s costing them money for the privilege of having us as customers.

If you were moved to Shell under the Ofgem process they can recoup the costs from the industry.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 29 October, 2021, 06:43:13 pm
That kinda sucks - does this mean that if I move the new co can't recoup the loss, but if I stay with Shell they can?

Sounds like a govt swizzle to me.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: SteveC on 29 October, 2021, 07:13:53 pm
Look like Bulb are on the list as well...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/29/uk-energy-regulator-to-take-bold-action-over-price-cap-as-crisis-deepens-ofgem (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/29/uk-energy-regulator-to-take-bold-action-over-price-cap-as-crisis-deepens-ofgem)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 29 October, 2021, 10:10:38 pm
That kinda sucks - does this mean that if I move the new co can't recoup the loss, but if I stay with Shell they can?

Sounds like a govt swizzle to me.

Basically, yeah.  The industry is pretty f*cked.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 30 October, 2021, 03:44:05 pm
Noticed that now that all the small startups have gone bust the gubbishment is reconsidering their energy cap rules so as not to harm the big companies too much.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: barakta on 30 October, 2021, 04:01:35 pm
With no plans for what the poorest people on fixed incomes like benefits and state pensions are supposed to do if there's huge increases every 3 months... I can't see prices going down ever...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 30 October, 2021, 09:29:22 pm
Noticed that now that all the small startups have gone bust the gubbishment is reconsidering their energy cap rules so as not to harm the big companies too much.

There’s still a few independents about but I expect another few to fail in the next couple of weeks and Bulb will be in Government hands.  I have had to speak to two clients this week who expect to go under in the next two weeks.   Both of them ran their businesses conservatively so it’s heartbreaking.

We’re now in a position where one of the big original players could fail due to price cap issues.  The only way out is to subsidise the energy suppliers or allow them to put prices up.  This is where Govt strategy doesn’t quite line up.  Happy to subsidise energy intensive users but happy to allow energy suppliers to fail. 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 31 October, 2021, 12:44:36 pm
Thing is that prices increasing and profits falling for energy companies is a good thing in that/if it means that investment in green alternatives to Gas become comparatively more cost effective.  But if you're poor you can't choose to invest in alternatives.
Can the govt manage to not let the poor freeze while subsidising green alternatives at a level that will prompt modal shift?  I very much doubt it.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Ham on 03 November, 2021, 12:04:25 pm
  The only way out is to subsidise the energy suppliers or allow them to put prices up.  This is where Govt strategy doesn’t quite line up.  Happy to subsidise energy intensive users but happy to allow energy suppliers to fail.

Or, change regulation such that the standard flexible tariff is the lowest offered, but changes in line with costs. Problem solved in one. Fixed tariffs available for those who want, and competition then works as it should.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 03 November, 2021, 01:37:58 pm
How do we solve the problem of affordability for the poorest in society though?   Energy isn't a luxury in my opinion but if we have a harsh winter there will be way too many people in poorly insulated homes unable to afford to keep warm or eat properly.

Not a great reflection on wider society imo.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 03 November, 2021, 01:46:28 pm
The point of the cap was that energy prices for consumers shouldn’t fluctuate with the whims of the market, but they don’t seem to have especially considered how the difference is absorbed.

Essentially they’re trying to have the energy prices behave like a nationalised entity (which would have no problem absorbing fluctuating prices) while keeping it looking like a free market because tories.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Ripio on 03 November, 2021, 05:10:55 pm
Was with Peoples Energy and got moved to British Gas, but British Gas haven't taken any payment from me in October, last payment was to Peoples energy in mid September just before the move.
Wondering if others who have been moved to BG from Peoples are finding the same?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 03 November, 2021, 06:02:26 pm
Was with Peoples Energy and got moved to British Gas, but British Gas haven't taken any payment from me in October, last payment was to Peoples energy in mid September just before the move.
Wondering if others who have been moved to BG from Peoples are finding the same?

We moved to BG in February/March this year (from AVRO after a total fiasco, before AVRO failed) .... the deal with BG is monthly meter readings (Smart) and monthly bills on a "pay for what you've used" basis - sometimes they raise a bill, sometimes they don't and then send one for a couple of months. 

I'm not bothered as we keep meter readings on a spreadsheet that calculates what we ought to be paying on the fixed deal - when their bills arrive they are correct to our readings. 

It just seems that the billing process is a bit woolly.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 November, 2021, 09:31:33 pm
The point of the cap was that energy prices for consumers shouldn’t fluctuate with the whims of the market, but they don’t seem to have especially considered how the difference is absorbed.

Essentially they’re trying to have the energy prices behave like a nationalised entity (which would have no problem absorbing fluctuating prices) while keeping it looking like a free market because tories.

The point of the cap was that a few suppliers had a fair chunk of customers on expensive SVRs.  We could have educated these customers to shop around but it was chosen to introduce the cap instead.  This crushed SSE and Centrica.  SSE sold their domestic book to Ovo and Centrica’s share price is a quarter of what it was.  Consumers were better off as a result.

The problem is not with the cap but the way it has been implemented.  The review windows lag too far behind the wholesale market.  You can excuse this a bit as conditions are extreme with gas prices quadrupling over a couple of months.  Interestingly if you dig into the regs Ofgem can change the cap more often than every 6 months if they want.  So far they have not been minded to.

(I found out last week that Ofgem employ 1200 people)

6 more suppliers have failed this week.  Annoyingly I had moved my Mum to one of them and I’m now going to get a kicking.

Still waiting to see what will happen with Bulb.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 November, 2021, 09:37:14 pm
If you're on a good fixed price deal and about to lapse onto the capped rate, take a meter reading and submit it on the last day.  Otherwise you can bet the estimated split between the two tariffs wil not be in your favour.  Do the same just before the cap changes in April.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 November, 2021, 09:44:31 pm
In slightly brighter news there are new suppliers entering the market next year.  Wholesale prices have retrenched a bit and are way cheaper 12 months out.  This may be a period of temporary pain for the consumer before an improvement.  This has happened before but not in the same magnitude.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 November, 2021, 10:15:07 pm
And my Mum is a victim of one of last weeks failures after I switched her from Scottish Power early this year.

This has not made me popular and gives back the saving I sorted on her phone and broadband 2 months ago.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: perpetual dan on 22 November, 2021, 01:12:00 pm
Looks like Bulb has gone now.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 22 November, 2021, 01:17:12 pm
Some members of my family were with Avro. They never received a bill, despite contacting the company multiple times.

Transferred to Octopus, who say that "You must pay off your debt with your previous supplier before we can start billing you."

My advice to them was to bank money towards bills and don't do anything else.


Anyone know what is happening with companies like Avro and outstanding bills? I assume that some big accountancy firms are slavering over running the administration. Someday, when they have managed to process Avro's accounts, they might issue a bill to former customers.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 22 November, 2021, 02:20:51 pm
Looks like Bulb has gone now.
Must try harder.

"Bulb has blown"
"Bulb's prospects dim"
"Bulb won't be coming up again in spring"
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: perpetual dan on 22 November, 2021, 02:32:51 pm
Looks like Bulb has gone now.
Must try harder.

"Bulb has blown"
"Bulb's prospects dim"
"Bulb won't be coming up again in spring"

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 22 November, 2021, 04:35:08 pm
Some members of my family were with Avro. They never received a bill, despite contacting the company multiple times.

Transferred to Octopus, who say that "You must pay off your debt with your previous supplier before we can start billing you."

My advice to them was to bank money towards bills and don't do anything else.


Anyone know what is happening with companies like Avro and outstanding bills? I assume that some big accountancy firms are slavering over running the administration. Someday, when they have managed to process Avro's accounts, they might issue a bill to former customers.

We were with AVRO (inherited when we bought the house in Feb 20) - could not get any admin sense from them or bills - upside is that we didn't have a DD, they were stiffing everyone that had to prop up cashflow - Ombudsman finally sorted it for us in Feb/March 21 when we moved to BG - that's all worked fine since then.

Good idea to bank the money BUT also make sure meter readings are kept each month so that there are clear consumption figures to apply the rate that they SHOULD be charging.  (We did that with AVRO and it worked out fine, eventually)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 November, 2021, 09:25:27 am
I see we're subsidising Bulb to the tune of £1000 per customer.   Surely a market-led government should just let it fail and make the customers sign up to whatever tariff they can find elsewhere?  But we always socialise losses after the fat cats have taken their profits and run.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 25 November, 2021, 09:32:35 am
It's thoroughly despicable.   Supporting a failed business to the tune of £1.7bn whilst taking money away from the poorest in society.  Thoroughly despicable and utterly vile.

It also proves unequivocally that the capitalist marketplace for energy reselling is nothing more than a sham construction designed to benefit greedy spivs and charlatans.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 25 November, 2021, 09:54:38 am
Another one bites the dust, Neon Reef, no I hadn't heard of them either till they came top of a comparison search a year ago. Anyway, back to British Gas and braced for a price hike.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 25 November, 2021, 01:12:35 pm
I see we're subsidising Bulb to the tune of £1000 per customer.   Surely a market-led government should just let it fail and make the customers sign up to whatever tariff they can find elsewhere?  But we always socialise losses after the fat cats have taken their profits and run.

Basically BEIS/Ofgem went round the bigger suppliers asking if they could take on 1.7m customers through SoLR, the only mechanism they had, and were firmly told to do one.   Ofgem appointed insolvency advisors about a month ago so you could see this in the planning.   The losses will be collected in the same way as other SoLR costs and added on to consumer bills as a levy.   

Let's be fair though, no one at Bulb was a fat cat or has taken any profits.   They have been loss making from day one.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 25 November, 2021, 01:31:20 pm
Will Bulb customers see their energy prices rise immediately by significant amounts just as those of us who have been forced into a SoLR's hands have?

Seems unfortunate but entirely warranted to me.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 25 November, 2021, 01:38:41 pm
Will Bulb customers see their energy prices rise immediately by significant amounts just as those of us who have been forced into a SoLR's hands have?

Seems unfortunate but entirely warranted to me.

They are priced at the cap already.   All of Bulb's customers were on their standard variable rate which they had moved up to the cap to protect themselves as much as they could.

The customers aren't incentivised to leave and no-one will buy the book.   The Govt is, essentially, now exposed to its own energy policy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 25 November, 2021, 01:44:34 pm
Will Bulb customers see their energy prices rise immediately by significant amounts just as those of us who have been forced into a SoLR's hands have?

Seems unfortunate but entirely warranted to me.

They are priced at the cap already.   All of Bulb's customers were on their standard variable rate which they had moved up to the cap to protect themselves as much as they could.

The customers aren't incentivised to leave and no-one will buy the book.   The Govt is, essentially, now exposed to its own energy policy.
And by 'The Govt', you of course mean us.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 25 November, 2021, 02:26:15 pm
Will Bulb customers see their energy prices rise immediately by significant amounts just as those of us who have been forced into a SoLR's hands have?

Seems unfortunate but entirely warranted to me.

They are priced at the cap already.   All of Bulb's customers were on their standard variable rate which they had moved up to the cap to protect themselves as much as they could.

The customers aren't incentivised to leave and no-one will buy the book.   The Govt is, essentially, now exposed to its own energy policy.
And by 'The Govt', you of course mean us.

Yeah.   Costs will be mutualised and collected back via an industry levy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 25 November, 2021, 02:27:40 pm
I see we're subsidising Bulb to the tune of £1000 per customer.   Surely a market-led government should just let it fail and make the customers sign up to whatever tariff they can find elsewhere?  But we always socialise losses after the fat cats have taken their profits and run.

It is OK, the BBC is reporting that the £1,000 per customer is a loan…
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 25 November, 2021, 02:57:41 pm
The problem with market lead economies is that they crash, suffer recessions and depressions.  Profit is a short term motive otherwise known as greed.

Looks like we need to renationalise every supplier that has already and is about to fail.  Of course, this bunch of self-serving, fascist, greedy idealists will never want to tread that road willingly.

Just imagine how big the "loan" will need to if BG, Eon etc. fail...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 25 November, 2021, 03:47:58 pm
Let's be fair though, no one at Bulb was a fat cat or has taken any profits.   They have been loss making from day one.

They didn't take a salary ?!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 25 November, 2021, 04:17:15 pm
Let's be fair though, no one at Bulb was a fat cat or has taken any profits.   They have been loss making from day one.

They didn't take a salary ?!

Accounts to 2020 :-

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08469555/filing-history

'The directors did not receive any remuneration from the company'

So then you have to go and look at the parent company :-

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09249540/filing-history

Total salary bill of £20m with 500 employees.   Average salary of £40k with the entire workforce in the City.   Prob not unreasonable.   In these accounts you see the note 'the 2 highest paid directors were paid £113k'.   £1.5bn turnover company.   Probably not an unreasonable payment. 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 08:50:55 am
Cost of Supplier of Last Resort failures do far is £1.8bn.   Ofgem have just approved that this is added to consumer bills from the 1st April.   This comes before the price cap review so can be included in suppliers tariffs.   Wholesale prices for Summer 22 are now 5 times where they were a year ago.   This is going to be pretty disastrous for the industry and push a lot more households into fuel poverty.

Please note this cost does not include the cost of Bulb's failure which will be recovered by alternate means as yet to be disclosed.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2021, 09:19:51 am
It's all worked really well then.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 23 December, 2021, 09:32:42 am
And I'm sure the infrastructure is now all top-notch stuff, after all these years of super efficient private ownership.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 December, 2021, 09:56:25 am
So about £70 each?  How is that fair?  Pick a cheap crap supplier, supplier goes bust, everyone else, who was probably paying more anyway, bails you out.

It's as bad as the Pension Protection Fund, where well-run schemes bail out those run by shysters.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 10:32:03 am
So about £70 each?  How is that fair?  Pick a cheap crap supplier, supplier goes bust, everyone else, who was probably paying more anyway, bails you out.

It's as bad as the Pension Protection Fund, where well-run schemes bail out those run by shysters.

Fag packet.   There's 25million domestic meters in the UK (looks like you used that) but this accounts for less than 50% of national consumption.   So more like £35 each as business/industrial covers the rest of the cost.   If the Bulb cost is also smeared in, and it probably will be, then more like your £70.

There is no comeback for failing.   I've never seen anyone be disqualified from re-entering the sector after a failure.

Ofgem are still finalising the way they will increase scrutiny on new entrants but it looks like they will follow FCA style financial tests, but that doesn't cover hedging/risk management or offering loss leading tariffs.   I was talking to a someone about this yesterday and they have been asked to wait an extra 3 months while their application is considered.   This is probably quite helpful with the existing conditions but annoying if you have written a business plan and raised capital.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 10:35:23 am
And I'm sure the infrastructure is now all top-notch stuff, after all these years of super efficient private ownership.

Except this is the supply sector and none of these suppliers owned any generation or transmission assets.   Every supplier pays the same amount to the wires/pipelines businesses to maintain the network and buys power and gas from generators and wholesalers.   Now how well that money is spent is a whole different kettle of fish.

I think I saw something recently that one of the reasons for the recent power failures in the North and Scotland were down to poorly maintained networks, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 23 December, 2021, 10:52:52 am
Doesn't matter how well maintained your network is, if a GBFO tree lands on your infrastructure it's failing.
In some cases the >100mph winds were enough to remove the cables and brackets from the poles/towers, snap poles in half etc. Which may be due to maintenance, but could also be due to maximum loading being exceeded from anything including the way the wires were moving between poles or due to other poles being broken by the wind and increasing the loading on the rest etc.

The pictures I've seen from guy working for SSE in Furrybootsshur after it is  :o

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Pingu on 23 December, 2021, 11:12:08 am
Isn't part of maintenance stopping nearby trees getting too GBFO?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 23 December, 2021, 11:21:33 am
So about £70 each?  How is that fair?  Pick a cheap crap supplier, supplier goes bust, everyone else, who was probably paying more anyway, bails you out.

If you believe in capitalism all of those shysters were putting useful downward pricing pressure on the other suppliers. Their unsustainable prices were making everyone else offer unsustainable prices. You should be thanking them.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 23 December, 2021, 11:52:38 am
All that happens when a capitalist trading scheme goes pop is that the customer ends up with little choice and higher prices.  At the 3ndnofnthe day the really big players on the long game just clean up both the customers and the longer term profits.

I was discussing the energy supply issues with a few friends recently.  It's difficult to remember when prices and supply were so volatile under the nationalised system*.  Seems to me that the only honest justification for privatisation is profit.

* awaits flood of examples showing otherwise.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fboab on 23 December, 2021, 01:52:34 pm
<snip>Seems to me that the only honest justification for privatisation is profit.</snip>

Well duh.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 01:56:41 pm

I was discussing the energy supply issues with a few friends recently.  It's difficult to remember when prices and supply were so volatile under the nationalised system*.  Seems to me that the only honest justification for privatisation is profit.

* awaits flood of examples showing otherwise.

I probably wouldn't dispute this.   In reality pre-privatisation the power market was oversupplied.   Grid had loads of spare margin and they liked it that way.   In 2001 we moved from a centrally dispatched pool based system to a dispatch-as-paid system with OTC trading (NETA).  Now when you introduce an OTC market to an over supplied system the inevitable happened and prices dumped to the point where the nuke fleet had to be bailed out by the Govt.   For the few years after that consumer bills were the lowest they had been and suppliers were able to make profits.   Everyone happy.   

We are now at the other end of the scale.  Any money to be made in the sector has disappeared.   If you take Centrica as an example their share price has dumped and they have stopped paying dividends.   They will be loss making at the moment with the price cap where it is.   

It is fair to say we have some very extreme events at the moment causing prices to be where they are.   The gas things is unavoidable as we are reliant on imports, are at the end of the supply chain, and everyone else wants it as well.   The electricity issues are exacerbated by being more reliant on wind and there hasn't been any for a week but prices in France have roofed so our interconnectors are flowing in the opposite direction to usual.   I'm not sure this could have been avoided with more investment but maybe allowing less plants to close would have helped, but the majority have been coal-fired and they had to come off for emissions reasons.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2021, 03:33:07 pm
<snip>Seems to me that the only honest justification for privatisation is profit.</snip>

Well duh.
Yebut profit is the justification for almost everything. It's profitable therefore it's good.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 23 December, 2021, 04:35:53 pm
Isn't part of maintenance stopping nearby trees getting too GBFO?

Not their land to manage.
The fire breaks are convenient places to run power lines so they'll have either wayleave or easements for gaining access and having the kit there but nothing else.

See also when they put it under roads...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 23 December, 2021, 05:14:55 pm
<snip>Seems to me that the only honest justification for privatisation is profit.</snip>

Well duh.

So you mean all the bullshit about competition bringing innovation, choice and lower prices due to dynamic market-based competition is a load of fertiliser derived from a large male bovine?  I am shocked. 

Or maybe not ...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 23 December, 2021, 05:20:39 pm
Bleed the inherited resources dry, maximise short term profit and enjoy the ride.

And hey, why not. When it all goes tits up the government will bail our customers out and we walk away from a bankrupt business, no skin off my nose.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2021, 06:35:45 pm
Ultimately that's the problem with many, if not all, privatisations. We sold the bits that could make the profits, guaranteed them with government money, and secured them against any potential losses or liabilities.

It would have been cheaper for us all if the government didn't bother with the charade and handed out the cash in brown envelopes.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 06:39:17 pm
<snip>Seems to me that the only honest justification for privatisation is profit.</snip>

Well duh.

So you mean all the bullshit about competition bringing innovation, choice and lower prices due to dynamic market-based competition is a load of fertiliser derived from a large male bovine?  I am shocked. 

Or maybe not ...

It did.....right up to the point where it didn't.   There's a theory that this was because of Govt intervention (price cap) rather than leaving a truly free market.

I worked in utilities not long after privatisation and they were overweight with staff and costs and massively inefficient so I don't believe nationalisation is the way.   Bear in mind the market opened to competition in the late 90s and it has taken a black swan event for a large chunk of the market to collapse on one go.   Let's see what we get in the way of energy policy out of this Government.

Obviously this is where I make my living so some of my opinions may be based on career protection.   Junior needs shoes, you know.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 23 December, 2021, 06:42:28 pm
Has anyone ever priced up the cost of every single person in the country spending a small part of every day wondering if they're on the best energy tariff?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 23 December, 2021, 06:43:45 pm
Has anyone ever priced up the cost of every single person in the country spending a small part of every day wondering if they're on the best energy tariff?

Or indeed, failing to do so.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 December, 2021, 06:44:34 pm
Hardly a black swan event: they must have realised demand would pick up again after being very depressed due to the pandemic.  They could have bought very cheap futures then, when industry was shut down.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: JonBuoy on 23 December, 2021, 07:13:40 pm
Isn't part of maintenance stopping nearby trees getting too GBFO?

Not their land to manage.
The fire breaks are convenient places to run power lines so they'll have either wayleave or easements for gaining access and having the kit there but nothing else.

See also when they put it under roads...

It may be different up north but I know a guy based in the Midlands whose full time job is juggling chainsaws to ensure that trees don't take out power lines.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 07:18:11 pm
Hardly a black swan event: they must have realised demand would pick up again after being very depressed due to the pandemic.  They could have bought very cheap futures then, when industry was shut down.

Prices rising by a factor of 8 is not a black swan event ?

A lot of independent suppliers could not access the wholesale market as credit is very difficult to come by.  A lot of business suppliers were overhedged during Summer 20 and were double hit when their customers shut down and they had to sell their hedges back at low levels.  It works both ways and is not as simple as is being made out by some ministers.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 07:27:35 pm
I saw some wag on LinkedIn say that it’s as simple as buying out the money calls without realising that :-

The amount of cash you have to post is huge for a cash strapped business.

Market volatility makes option premiums very high.

There is no OTC options market.

Of course the regulator and the business secretary also don’t get this.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2021, 07:31:58 pm
But that's the essence of markets – outlying events are a certainty, you gamble against their probability.

There's a huge moral hazard in creating pseudo-markets for services where the business can walk away once offering those services becomes unprofitable.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2021, 08:04:39 pm
The bizarre thing to my mind is that when water and sewerage were privatised, they were done in a different way. I'm wondering why a different ideology was applied to them – why we have no "consumer choice" in water?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: lissotriton on 23 December, 2021, 08:06:11 pm
Isn't part of maintenance stopping nearby trees getting too GBFO?

Not their land to manage.
The fire breaks are convenient places to run power lines so they'll have either wayleave or easements for gaining access and having the kit there but nothing else.

See also when they put it under roads...

It may be different up north but I know a guy based in the Midlands whose full time job is juggling chainsaws to ensure that trees don't take out power lines.
I've had a few trees in my garden trimmed by SSE. They were quite close to a minor power line. And getting a bit too big anyway (leylandii).

But must be a lot of work arranging to do the job. ie figuring out who the landowners are and how to contact them. Then some may refuse permission for whatever reasons. Plus environmental impact assessments, ie not cutting trees in the nesting season.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 08:30:28 pm
The bizarre thing to my mind is that when water and sewerage were privatised, they were done in a different way. I'm wondering why a different ideology was applied to them – why we have no "consumer choice" in water?

Privatisation and competition in power and gas were about 10 years apart but the former made way for the latter.  There is competition in water if you are a business consumer.  I think domestic is coming.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 08:42:53 pm
But that's the essence of markets – outlying events are a certainty, you gamble against their probability.

There's a huge moral hazard in creating pseudo-markets for services where the business can walk away once offering those services becomes unprofitable.

This is the biggest move I have ever seen in over 20 years, although the forward market dumped 12% this afternoon.

The margin calls going between trading parties and the exchanges are in the billions.  This is now a problem on such a huge scale there is a chance of a failure the size of the banking crisis.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 23 December, 2021, 08:44:55 pm
Privatisation and competition in power and gas were about 10 years apart but the former made way for the latter.  There is competition in water if you are a business consumer.  I think domestic is coming.

I genuinely shuddered reading that last sentence.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 December, 2021, 08:51:46 pm
Privatisation and competition in power and gas were about 10 years apart but the former made way for the latter.  There is competition in water if you are a business consumer.  I think domestic is coming.

I genuinely shuddered reading that last sentence.
All those well boring and exploration firms that might lose their markets with the (potential) decline of oil and gas, can have a new market drilling for water in every other garden once the water cos go bust!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 08:56:05 pm
Privatisation and competition in power and gas were about 10 years apart but the former made way for the latter.  There is competition in water if you are a business consumer.  I think domestic is coming.

I don’t see the point in water competition.  It’s one of my lowest household costs but there’s 2 of us and a teenager who has to be made to shower.

There’s pretty big regional differentials in pricing.  My first job out of university was in a call centre for a water company.  It was eye opening.

I genuinely shuddered reading that last sentence.
All those well boring and exploration firms that might lose their markets with the (potential) decline of oil and gas, can have a new market drilling for water in every other garden once the water cos go bust!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 23 December, 2021, 09:25:42 pm
But that's the essence of markets – outlying events are a certainty, you gamble against their probability.

There's a huge moral hazard in creating pseudo-markets for services where the business can walk away once offering those services becomes unprofitable.

This is the biggest move I have ever seen in over 20 years, although the forward market dumped 12% this afternoon.

The margin calls going between trading parties and the exchanges are in the billions.  This is now a problem on such a huge scale there is a chance of a failure the size of the banking crisis.

Well, indeed, but that's the ratchet in the moral hazard. They keep betting with what is effectively someone else's money because they're too big and important to be allowed to fail. I'm sure some of these businesses made profits over the years.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 23 December, 2021, 09:54:56 pm
The fundamental issue is overlaying essential infrastructure with the profit motive.  If a business can simply walk away from it's debt whether it has been managed well or it's been stripped by venture capitalists the underlying issue is how does the essential infrastructure survive?

Profit is a piss poor motive when failure can have such a dramatic and wide-reaching impact.  The real issue for me though with gas, electricity, water and even BT is that the open market is essentially an entirely false construct designed purely and simply to make greedy people even richer.

Too many unaccountable risk takers.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 December, 2021, 10:34:08 pm
The fundamental issue is overlaying essential infrastructure with the profit motive.  If a business can simply walk away from it's debt whether it has been managed well or it's been stripped by venture capitalists the underlying issue is how does the essential infrastructure survive?

Profit is a piss poor motive when failure can have such a dramatic and wide-reaching impact.  The real issue for me though with gas, electricity, water and even BT is that the open market is essentially an entirely false construct designed purely and simply to make greedy people even richer.

Too many unaccountable risk takers.

I will repeat my point that it’s the suppliers that have gone bust and they are just resellers.  It is not their job to invest in infrastructure.  This bit of the market is definitely broken.  There was margin in supply but there has not been for several years.   You can see this in the performance of the challenger suppliers, Centrica’s share price or the fact that both SSE and npower sold their supply books.

The pipes and wires are now pretty much owned by National Grid or pension funds.  The amount of return they can make was regulated and linked to RPI.  They get fines from the regulator for failures of service.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 24 December, 2021, 08:35:19 am
Is it therefore the lack of regulation of the infrastructure providers/owners that is another problem (unrelated to the current crop of failures) ?  Lack of aspiration or long term planning from the government ?

If so, then I guess that's been a problem ever since privatisation in the 80s, so, for once, possibly, we can't just point our fingers at the current Swirl of Incompetence.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 December, 2021, 09:05:29 am
Is it therefore the lack of regulation of the infrastructure providers/owners that is another problem (unrelated to the current crop of failures) ?  Lack of aspiration or long term planning from the government ?

If so, then I guess that's been a problem ever since privatisation in the 80s, so, for once, possibly, we can't just point our fingers at the current Swirl of Incompetence.

You need to break it down to 4 key areas and Ofgem licensed activities :-

Supply - This is where we have seen the recent collapses.   Question mark of whether this is regulatory tampering, high wholesale prices or a bit of both.
Generation - Privately owned assets with a range of owners.   This sector underpeformed for many years as wholesale prices were terribly low.   A lot of assets were sold, mothballed or demolished leaving the Grid without enough spare margin.   It's fair to focus on this but there has also been a huge build out of renewables during this time which is a big success story.   The upshot is on low wind/sun days we struggle to balance the system.   Market conditions currently support a lot more roll out of unsubsidised renewables which we should see in the next 2 years.
Distribution - Local Networks.   Heavily regulated with spending and charging controls.   Generally owned by pension fund type investors as returns are low but steady like water companies.
Transmission - National Grid wires.   Again heavily regulated.   National Grid is quoted and seems to generate steady returns.   The general view is that they do their job quite well.

So it depends what you mean by infrastructure.   I think a lot of the issues we are having are down to out over reliance on imported gas.   This could have been reduced with more generation build out and not allowing Centrica to close the Rough storage field.   And this is where the markets haven't provided.   For example a pension fund, when building a wind farm is looking at a 25yr financial model with a view to achieving the returns they need to make the investment.   They would prefer to do this in a regulatory environment that is secure.   Politicians, though, think in 4/5 yr cycles and everything else is down to the next person.   Long term energy policy has been sadly lacking for an awfully long time.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 December, 2021, 09:28:01 am
One remaining story after the Secretary of State criticised 'irresponsibly run' suppliers :-

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-23/u-k-government-repeats-bulb-energy-mistake-by-failing-to-hedge
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 24 December, 2021, 09:31:17 am
Thank you for all of that.

One silver lining to the current surge in energy prices is surely that renewables become even more attractive as an investment vehicle. Yes ?   Or does the high price need to be baked in for many years to make that a thing.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 December, 2021, 09:43:45 am
Thank you for all of that.

One silver lining to the current surge in energy prices is surely that renewables become even more attractive as an investment vehicle. Yes ?   Or does the high price need to be baked in for many years to make that a thing.

The surge in prices is concentrated at the front.   As an example Jan was 50p, next Summer 25p and the following Winter 27p.   The forward market then drops to a bit over 10p.   But, overall, it's way higher than it was so shovel ready projects that had been parked are now suddenly running full speed.   If built these projects will be generating Summer 23.

There is now a global problem with the supply of solar panels, though.   I think at any one time you either have the money, the site or the correct power price but getting all three at the same time is troublesome.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2021, 09:56:01 am
If fossil fuel producers were forced to charge the actual costs, the fossil fuel market would die overnight anyway as it's commercially untenable.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: TimC on 24 December, 2021, 02:57:56 pm
On almost every other thread on YACF we complain about things the Government has/hasn't/might have/is rumoured to have done. In almost none of them do we compliment the government on its sane and sensible management of, well, anything. But you all want them to start running the power distribution system (and railways)? Explain your working.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Pingu on 24 December, 2021, 03:02:59 pm
Not this gubbinsment, thobut.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 24 December, 2021, 03:27:27 pm
On almost every other thread on YACF we complain about things the Government has/hasn't/might have/is rumoured to have done. In almost none of them do we compliment the government on its sane and sensible management of, well, anything. But you all want them to start running the power distribution system (and railways)? Explain your working.

Personally, I'm not sure the government should – political dabbling and target setting is often worse than the alternatives of market imperatives. I have no issues with a business making money out of supplying services, but they should take the risks and be able and willing to invest.

My gripe is that we built a system that wasn't really a market (as such, since markets involve both risk and reward) with an inbuilt moral hazard (there is no risk). The bars to entry were bizarrely low (presumably to get as many suppliers as possible) and the liabilities effectively elided. So they profited while things were good, and then stepped out and left the bills when they weren't.

Some people got cheap bills for the while. Now I'm (and everyone else) is paying the difference. Obviously, if these were real businesses that had to manage risk, invest etc. they might not view being an energy supplier as an appealing option, but that should be a worthwhile consideration.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 December, 2021, 04:01:24 pm
Prices have dropped off a cliff the last 2 days, just before we get to delivery of the Jan and Q1 contracts.   It’s almost as if the fundamentals didn’t support pricing there.

It has become a game of who can hang on the longest.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 24 December, 2021, 04:05:52 pm
I've just finished a book called Last Trains by Charles Lofts (not recommended, it was a dense read) about the railway industry leading upto the Beeching / Marples era and to a lesser extent on the aftermath.

The main thrust of the book is that up until it was realised what damage wholesale railway closures had done to communities the nationalised railway had to 'balance the books'. Some routes would never, ever be able to break even, or make a profit, but were closed anyway. The author quotes a few examples, the one that stood out for me was the line to Wells-Next-The-Sea which carried huge numbers of pilgrims to Walsingham.

Since then it's been recognised that railways wiil always need to be run with a government subsidy of some sort if we want a national rail network. The argument has become about how big that subsidy should be.

Back to power.
I know next to nothing about the industry, but it seems to me that if we want to provide grid electricity to every corner of the country then it needs to be a public service, and subsidised as such by the tax payer.
Of course, it's a socialist idea, that the city dweller subsidises the country family that provides the food on the table.
I struggle to find the excuse for the profit motive but I'm an unreformed dinosaur (and not signed up to POBI).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 24 December, 2021, 05:59:04 pm
The government already regulates the parameters of electricity supply to such narrow boundaries that the “market” is mostly a work of fiction.

The demand isn’t that government take over but that they stop pretending they don’t run it already.

(It was even worse with trains, although Covid has essentially ended the franchise system)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 25 December, 2021, 07:47:19 am
I've just finished a book called Last Trains by Charles Lofts (not recommended, it was a dense read) about the railway industry leading upto the Beeching / Marples era and to a lesser extent on the aftermath.

The main thrust of the book is that up until it was realised what damage wholesale railway closures had done to communities the nationalised railway had to 'balance the books'. Some routes would never, ever be able to break even, or make a profit, but were closed anyway. The author quotes a few examples, the one that stood out for me was the line to Wells-Next-The-Sea which carried huge numbers of pilgrims to Walsingham.

Since then it's been recognised that railways wiil always need to be run with a government subsidy of some sort if we want a national rail network. The argument has become about how big that subsidy should be.

Back to power.
I know next to nothing about the industry, but it seems to me that if we want to provide grid electricity to every corner of the country then it needs to be a public service, and subsidised as such by the tax payer.
Of course, it's a socialist idea, that the city dweller subsidises the country family that provides the food on the table.
I struggle to find the excuse for the profit motive but I'm an unreformed dinosaur (and not signed up to POBI).

Absolutely, and to include water and gas - the latter obviously within the spread of the pipe distribution network.    There is also perhaps an argument that relates to the dwellings off the gas grid and their need for alternative fuel(s) - usually oil - for a fairly regulated price structure.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 25 December, 2021, 07:53:24 am
Throw in the postal and telephone services, while you are at it.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 25 December, 2021, 08:36:10 am
And telecomms ?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 December, 2021, 04:14:53 pm
I've just been reading a history of Victorian cities. One of the biggest problems faced by booming cities in the 19th century was provision of safe water, sewerage and also gas. In most cities these things existed but with limited coverage and run by a variety of fragmented private companies in each city. So there was demand from medics, engineers and others for these to be taken over by municipal corporations so that they could be expanded to cover the whole city, and to a lesser extent to ensure water quality. There was also profit for corporations in running the gas services. But in every city, the municipal corporations resisted the pressure to buy out the private suppliers, while admitting that lack of safe water and absence of sewers were causing disease which spread and affected also those in the affluent districts with sewers etc. The obstacle was reluctance to raise the rates to cover the capital costs of buying them out, and this came from Liberal and 'Radical' councils as much as Tories.  Things change but sometimes not so fundamentally.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 December, 2021, 08:05:26 am
I've just given Eon a meter reading and apparently my account remains a smidgen in credit.  They'd better not increase the direct debit in anticipation of April price rises.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 December, 2021, 08:22:54 am
My Mum was with one of the suppliers that folded.  The account has just transferred to Centrica and I have just set the Direct Debit up.   She still has a credit of almost £300 with the old supplier but it hasn’t transferred.  Under the SoLR process deposits are protected so I expect this to transfer at some point.

Centrica’s website is pants.   There is no ‘contact us’ section anywhere.   They just don’t want to talk to you but send you to the Q&A page which doesn’t help.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 December, 2021, 08:39:45 am
When Tonik went bust I refused to pay Scottish Power anything on the basis that the credit would cover the short time I was with them.  They sent me lots of threatening letters, including one that arrived after they'd received the credit and wiped out the debit. I am still owed about a tenner in surplus but they've never paid me.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 December, 2021, 09:50:24 am
When Tonik went bust I refused to pay Scottish Power anything on the basis that the credit would cover the short time I was with them.  They sent me lots of threatening letters, including one that arrived after they'd received the credit and wiped out the debit. I am still owed about a tenner in surplus but they've never paid me.

In normal times I would have already moved her to another supplier but everyone is pricing at the cap so I figured I would stay where we are.  Centrica took over in Nov and this is the first time they had asked for any money.  Their back office is notoriously crap, though.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 December, 2021, 01:32:51 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533

If this breakdown is correct, there is massive scope for cuts.  Billing and metering are almost 1/6 of the cost, and the various green schemes add a huge wedge too. Then there's VAT, which is a poor show on an essential good, even if it is 5%.  Of course, other taxation would need to go up if the green levies and VAT were abolished, but that wouldn't be as brutally regressive.  Tories love regressive taxes, so don't hold your breath.

The other thing no-one breaks out properly is the balance between standing charges and unit rates.  My electricity unit rate has barely increased on moving to the cap, but my standing charge has gone up more than three times what it was.  That's gouging.  No amount of energy saving can make one iota of difference to that.  Similarly, the standing charge is 1/3 of my gas bill.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: grams on 27 December, 2021, 01:45:13 pm
If you abolish billing and metering the average amount each customer pays will definitely go down.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 December, 2021, 01:52:25 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533

If this breakdown is correct, there is massive scope for cuts.  Billing and metering are almost 1/6 of the cost, and the various green schemes add a huge wedge too. Then there's VAT, which is a poor show on an essential good, even if it is 5%.  Of course, other taxation would need to go up if the green levies and VAT were abolished, but that wouldn't be as brutally regressive.  Tories love regressive taxes, so don't hold your breath.

The other thing no-one breaks out properly is the balance between standing charges and unit rates.  My electricity unit rate has barely increased on moving to the cap, but my standing charge has gone up more than three times what it was.  That's gouging.  No amount of energy saving can make one iota of difference to that.  Similarly, the standing charge is 1/3 of my gas bill.

Gross margins in the sector are estimated to be low single digits.  Ofgem published their analysis a couple of months ago.  The big players have legacy systems which are cumbersome and expensive.  The one thing Octopus have done is to design their own billing and CRM system which, if you believe the hype, is very efficient and create a low cost to serve.  They have now licensed this and started to sell it to their competitors.

The end user pays Renewable Obligation, Carbon support, UK emissions trading costs, warm home discount, FiT levies and CFD levies.   A lot of these are paid back to renewable generators so it does go back into the industry.  Carbon support just goes into the tax coffers.  As you say, you pay 5% VAT on top of all this.

There’s not many industry charges that are billed as a standing cost so I’m wondering if suppliers have started to charge their costs a bit more appropriately.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 27 December, 2021, 01:53:57 pm
Comment in The Times today.

Stephen Fitzpatrick, Founder OVO Energy

Quote
As 2021 comes to an end, Britain finds itself at the start of an energy crisis. Politicians and the industry regulator have failed to grasp just how serious the situation is. From April, household bills will rise to nearly £2,000, almost doubling from last year. At this point, the crisis will be impossible to ignore.

Later today the leaders of the largest energy companies will be meeting the government and Ofgem to try to hammer out a solution. We have lost three valuable months since the problems began and I lament the fact that up until now so little has been done.

If a doubling of prices had happened at the petrol pump there would have been swift outcry and action. Instead, because this crisis has built over months, and mostly the public have not yet felt the impact, there has been a shocking lack of urgency. It is not too late but we need to take action immediately. Working together across government and industry, there is still a lot we can do to protect consumers and strengthen our energy system. There are three immediate priorities.

First, vulnerability. Millions of households already struggle to heat their homes in winter. The near doubling of bills will push millions more over the edge. The government urgently needs to support those families who need help the most.

Second, volatility. It may be that we are entering a period of permanently higher energy prices, something households will have to adjust to. But it is simply not reasonable to expect consumers to bear the brunt of a geopolitical standoff between Russia and the West. In broader economic terms, if unchecked, the £25 billion hit to consumer spending will present a significant headwind for the economy and add more inflationary pressures to an already troubled outlook. Other countries have found ways to smooth out these price shocks for consumers and Britain should too.

Third, viability. Thirty energy companies have gone bankrupt in 12 months, costing consumers nearly £4 billion. Collectively, the energy retail sector has been losing money for years under pressure from unsustainable competition, poor regulation and rising policy costs. With only a handful of energy companies surviving, and with this crises putting even well-run ones under extreme pressure, the sector needs urgent and meaningful reform if more failures are to be avoided.

I really do hope that after a slow start today’s meeting will prove to be the turning point. The effects of the global financial crisis played out over a decade at enormous costs. Early action might help us avoid a great energy crisis.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 27 December, 2021, 02:11:55 pm
Only two problems that I can see there Jaded:

1:  you need a government and regulator competent and capable enough of understanding the issues, and

2: they need to actually care about those issue and the consequences of them.

Problem for the tories is that this is yet more proof that a free market doesn't work and they are loathe to admit this from an ideological perspective.  They are largely insulated from this as individuals so a few poor, old, weak and vulnerable falling by the wayside is acceptable collateral to them in exactly the same way as covid deaths seem to be.

I hold no hope for this government to do other than window dressing and showboating on the issue.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 December, 2021, 02:16:57 pm
Polar Bear has the measure of the pile of ordure that masquerades as our current government.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 December, 2021, 02:23:27 pm
Except that when industry started to struggle, see CF fertilisers, they were suddenly willing to do something.

Industries that can pass increased costs on will be OK but the end consumer will also be hit by these increased costs.  A lot of large business consumers only buy energy in the spot market.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 December, 2021, 07:26:02 pm
Quelle surprise, nothing much happened in the talks
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/27/energy-bosses-to-meet-kwasi-kwarteng-in-attempt-to-avert-enormous-crisis
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 28 December, 2021, 07:41:27 am
Polar Bear has the measure of the pile of ordure that masquerades as our current government.

. . .  but one does have to wonder how the other lot would have got on with both the energy and Covid situations . . .
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 28 December, 2021, 10:42:55 am
I think at this point we can be sure that they couldn’t have done worse.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 28 December, 2021, 10:57:07 am
I think at this point we can be sure that they couldn’t have done worse.
And this strays into POBI territory, but, yes this is the thing.

I get the strong impression that the current lot* have a huge proportion of self-serving, in-it-for-themselves very wealthy individuals. The other lot(s) do not /seem/ to be so afflicted.

*I'm not convinced that the lot in power share any Conservative genes with the tories of the pre-Thatcher clan, who, although misguided, were at least honorable.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 28 December, 2021, 11:05:52 am
Corbyn had a policy of nationalisation of energy but it was phased.  It wouldn’t have got there yet so I think we’d have had the same exposure to high wholesale gas prices.  We were due a price shock anyway, but was it exacerbated by the extremely low demand of Summer 2020 ?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 29 December, 2021, 10:55:14 am
Polar Bear has the measure of the pile of ordure that masquerades as our current government.

. . .  but one does have to wonder how the other lot would have got on with both the energy and Covid situations . . .

Why?

It is the standard distraction tactic of a failed regime to distract with the claim that only they could have made such a shitshow and that anybody else would have made a much much worse shitshow.  There is no logic or rationale to this but rather the usual "we know what's best for you" fascist approach of the right and their acolytes.

We can take examples from around the world to see which nations and political regimes have faired better or worse but we really cannot know how those who have not been shitting on the British public for nearly 12 years with austerity, berkshit, PPE contracts, defunding the NHS, defunding education, eroding your rights, giving the wealthier tax breaks whilst taking more from the poor, using the TV licence to divide young and old and to undermine BBC neutrality, punishing students with higher fees, etc., etc., etc. could have done worse.

Such mantras are as lacking in credibility as the claims on the side of the big red bus.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 29 December, 2021, 10:59:59 am
The solution in this shitshow would have been a Government of National Unity.

However you have to have politicians that are there for their country, not themselves.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 29 December, 2021, 11:10:37 am
The solution in this shitshow would have been a Government of National Unity.

However you have to have politicians that are there for their country, not themselves.
^ ^ ^  This, very very much this.  ^ ^ ^

And the bizarre irony is that if The Clown had done this at the start it is likely he could have acquired the mantle of 'statesman'. Instead, we have The Swirl of Incompetence and Venality making things worse on a daily basis. And, finally, the poll ratings appear to indicate that the populace are coming to that realisation.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 29 December, 2021, 02:25:21 pm
Never fall into the trap of thinking that politics has anything to do with the effective government of the country.  It is about acquiring power, and then holding onto power at all costs.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 05 January, 2022, 01:21:50 pm
Together Energy on the brink of failure.   170,000 customers.

They are 50% owned by Warrington Council.  After the failures of Robin Hood Energy and Bristol Energy it amazes why local authorities believe they have a place in the energy sector.

Also Ovo just published their recent accounts which showed a £250m loss.   This was for a period before the wholesale market went mad.   There's no money in energy supply.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 05 January, 2022, 01:46:36 pm
So, having been bumped to British Gas (Elec only) if there any point in looking at alternatives or are they all charging new customers at the capped rate?
I did get a rebate for being in credit, which was nice, but it's unlikely to cover the increase for very long.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 05 January, 2022, 01:54:07 pm
So, having been bumped to British Gas (Elec only) if there any point in looking at alternatives or are they all charging new customers at the capped rate?
I did get a rebate for being in credit, which was nice, but it's unlikely to cover the increase for very long.

Everyone is pricing at the cap so not point looking around.   The cap is due to go up again 1 April but the level has not yet been sent.

There are signs of some downward pressure in the wholesale market so we might start to see some decent fixed price offers going into the Summer.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 05 January, 2022, 03:08:57 pm
So, having been bumped to British Gas (Elec only) if there any point in looking at alternatives or are they all charging new customers at the capped rate?
I did get a rebate for being in credit, which was nice, but it's unlikely to cover the increase for very long.

Everyone is pricing at the cap so not point looking around.   The cap is due to go up again 1 April but the level has not yet been sent.

Cheers, saves me wasting time shopping around. I'll have another look in the summer.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 January, 2022, 08:17:22 pm
My old fix rolled off yesterday.  I have avoided some of the immediate pain of going onto the capped tariff by signing a 3yr fix that pushes some sort of the pain into years 2&3.

My energy monitor shows my costs have doubled today.   It is a high consumption day as it’s a bit chilly.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 January, 2022, 08:59:55 pm
Read the meters today.  Took a Several of goes to submit the electrickery one as it turns out that using -30,000 wossnames of voles & ants in six months upsets EDF's Babbage-Engine.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 January, 2022, 09:29:55 pm
Read the meters today.  Took a Several of goes to submit the electrickery one as it turns out that using -30,000 wossnames of voles & ants in six months upsets EDF's Babbage-Engine.

Average Uk consumption is 3,000kWh per annum.  I’m not surprised it broke their validation rules.  This stems from the stories making into the press about Grannies getting bills for £10,000.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 January, 2022, 10:59:19 pm
No, no, I gave them 30,000 thingies, which is pretty good going considering the size of the solar panels which in my case I have not got.  Or, more prosaically, I typed a “3” instead of a “6”.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 07 January, 2022, 07:49:47 am
My old fix rolled off yesterday.  I have avoided some of the immediate pain of going onto the capped tariff by signing a 3yr fix that pushes some sort of the pain into years 2&3.

My energy monitor shows my costs have doubled today.   It is a high consumption day as it’s a bit chilly.

Do you trust the energy monitor?   

- ours (Smart Meters installed by Western Power for British Gas in July 2021) frequently show the gas consumption at a rate of £35,000.00 per hour (yes 35 THOUSAND quid) - and then zero when the boiler is clearly working at full bore!    Electric seems vaguely accurate blipping back and forth when heavy use items are in use.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 January, 2022, 08:51:14 am
My old fix rolled off yesterday.  I have avoided some of the immediate pain of going onto the capped tariff by signing a 3yr fix that pushes some sort of the pain into years 2&3.

My energy monitor shows my costs have doubled today.   It is a high consumption day as it’s a bit chilly.

Do you trust the energy monitor?   

- ours (Smart Meters installed by Western Power for British Gas in July 2021) frequently show the gas consumption at a rate of £35,000.00 per hour (yes 35 THOUSAND quid) - and then zero when the boiler is clearly working at full bore!    Electric seems vaguely accurate blipping back and forth when heavy use items are in use.

Up until yesterday the numbers always seemed reasonable apart from the occasional blip in connectivity.   I am starting to think that the cost is overstated.   I am not completely sure how the energy monitor gets hold of the tariff so there's a chance that it knew my fixed rate finished on the 5th so has just assumed a default rate.   I need to have a play with the menu and see.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 07 January, 2022, 09:52:52 am
My old fix rolled off yesterday.  I have avoided some of the immediate pain of going onto the capped tariff by signing a 3yr fix that pushes some sort of the pain into years 2&3.

My energy monitor shows my costs have doubled today.   It is a high consumption day as it’s a bit chilly.

Do you trust the energy monitor?   

- ours (Smart Meters installed by Western Power for British Gas in July 2021) frequently show the gas consumption at a rate of £35,000.00 per hour (yes 35 THOUSAND quid) - and then zero when the boiler is clearly working at full bore!    Electric seems vaguely accurate blipping back and forth when heavy use items are in use.

Up until yesterday the numbers always seemed reasonable apart from the occasional blip in connectivity.   I am starting to think that the cost is overstated.   I am not completely sure how the energy monitor gets hold of the tariff so there's a chance that it knew my fixed rate finished on the 5th so has just assumed a default rate.   I need to have a play with the menu and see.

We changed tariff just before Christmas (taking a put on a BG fixed) and the monitor seems to be showing the correct unit price details for both fuels and standing charges - and meter reads I recorded and those online that BG had at the end of Dec were within a gnat's crochet of each other.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Ripio on 08 January, 2022, 04:39:40 pm
So, having been bumped to British Gas (Elec only) if there any point in looking at alternatives or are they all charging new customers at the capped rate?
I did get a rebate for being in credit, which was nice, but it's unlikely to cover the increase for very long.

When did you get your credit rebate?
I was with Peoples and got moved to BG but no sign of my credit being returned to me yet.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 08 January, 2022, 05:41:35 pm
So, having been bumped to British Gas (Elec only) if there any point in looking at alternatives or are they all charging new customers at the capped rate?
I did get a rebate for being in credit, which was nice, but it's unlikely to cover the increase for very long.

When did you get your credit rebate?
I was with Peoples and got moved to BG but no sign of my credit being returned to me yet.

Similar here.  Mum was with Zebra and I can see the credit but it hasn’t moved over.  BGs website is terrible and there is no ‘contact us’ page.  There is a section on the site that has a link to an info page for customers of each of the failed suppliers they have taken on.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 08 January, 2022, 05:56:08 pm
So, having been bumped to British Gas (Elec only) if there any point in looking at alternatives or are they all charging new customers at the capped rate?
I did get a rebate for being in credit, which was nice, but it's unlikely to cover the increase for very long.

When did you get your credit rebate?
I was with Peoples and got moved to BG but no sign of my credit being returned to me yet.
I was with Neon Reef rather than PE and I've received notification rather than cash, about a month after then went bust.  I'm not fussed about whether I get cash or credit, it's about £80, covered by the DD guarantee and it's going to get spent on electricity anyway. 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 30 January, 2022, 12:04:42 pm
Were with Pure, moved to Shell, minor price hike of £30 a month.  As it’s Shell, looked to move to good energy or green energy, only green energy offered us a quote, at £200 more a month than we pay with Shell.
I don’t understand, if it’s a green tariff it should be less effected by the volatility in gas prices, not more.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Giropaul on 30 January, 2022, 02:07:11 pm
I had an emailed electricity statement yesterday. ( E.On). It stated that as there had been no reading recently they had “ estimated “ my bill. This led me into a maze of logging into my account. I read the meter and entered the reading. Only then did I notice that I could view previous readings - and they had collected one two days before!
Now I was “ captured “ in the process I had to review/ renew my account. Same account basis; more money of course.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 01 February, 2022, 09:52:27 pm
Tripped across this article on the Guardian earlier, had the devil's own job trying to find it again to post here.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/01/new-super-tax-to-deter-energy-firm-owners-from-gas-profiteering
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 01 February, 2022, 10:11:42 pm
Were with Pure, moved to Shell, minor price hike of £30 a month.  As it’s Shell, looked to move to good energy or green energy, only green energy offered us a quote, at £200 more a month than we pay with Shell.
I don’t understand, if it’s a green tariff it should be less effected by the volatility in gas prices, not more.

Their tariff is set using the wholesale electricity price.  50% of our power is generated from gas so the gas price sets the power price.  Green power trades at a premium to the ‘brown’ wholesale price.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 01 February, 2022, 10:15:16 pm
Tripped across this article on the Guardian earlier, had the devil's own job trying to find it again to post here.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/01/new-super-tax-to-deter-energy-firm-owners-from-gas-profiteering

There was a point during the Winter where there was more money to be made unwinding hedges than continuing to supply customers.  At least a couple of people took advantage of this.  Under industry standard agreements this is settled out through a mark-to-market calculation, but there is no requirement to pass that back to the consumer.  Ofgem have never been particularly good with wholesale markets, preferring to concentrate on the consumer but this is quite a big hole.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 February, 2022, 07:34:02 am
Eon are offering me a new one year fix for 40% a month more than the current default tariff, so you can see where prices are going (I won't take the fix as I want another couple of months on the current price cap, then the heating is barely used due to warmer weather!).

What's unforgivable is that the daily standing charges have almost doubled and will be a huge percentage of the bill.  How can they justify that?  It's unrelated to the wholesale gas price.  And what supplier has the lowest standing charge?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 February, 2022, 08:04:26 am
Eon are offering me a new one year fix for 40% a month more than the current default tariff, so you can see where prices are going (I won't take the fix as I want another couple of months on the current price cap, then the heating is barely used due to warmer weather!).

What's unforgivable is that the daily standing charges have almost doubled and will be a huge percentage of the bill.  How can they justify that?  It's unrelated to the wholesale gas price.  And what supplier has the lowest standing charge?

Wholesale prices have fallen quite a bit recently as we get towards the end of the calculation window.   I think that suppliers will be able to undercut the cap come 1 Apr.   Whether they are willing to or not is a different matter.

The majority of supplier costs are variable so I’m not particularly sure why standing charges are rising.   Having no standing charge was very fashionable at one point but I think suppliers are less willing to offer this now.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 03 February, 2022, 08:49:49 am
So, is it best to stay on a variable rate, or go for a fixed one? The foxed rates Octopus are offering me are double my current rate!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 February, 2022, 09:07:59 am
So, is it best to stay on a variable rate, or go for a fixed one? The foxed rates Octopus are offering me are double my current rate!

Between now and the end of March you will not be able to find a cheaper rate than a variable as they are all set at the cap.   Best to wait until April when the cap will increase again and then shop around.   Theoretically there should be some deals but :-

1. Existing suppliers have had an awful time this Winter and probably lost a tonne of cash.   How willing they are to go out with competitive tariffs is uncertain.
2. We have lost over 25 suppliers so there is is less competition and scrabbling round for new customers.   There are a couple of new entrant suppliers starting up so maybe they will have some deals.   Ofgem have increased their levels of checks before letting people enter the supply sector so they should be a bit safer.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 03 February, 2022, 09:10:05 am
OK, thanks, we will wait and see…
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 February, 2022, 09:31:12 am
It's an ill wind etc

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-again-boosts-dividend-buybacks-profits-soar-2022-02-03/

If you do a back of the envelope calculation, Shell's annual profits are around the total increase in bills for 25m households.

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 February, 2022, 09:46:32 am
It's an ill wind etc

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-again-boosts-dividend-buybacks-profits-soar-2022-02-03/

If you do a back of the envelope calculation, Shell's annual profits are around the total increase in bills for 25m households.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, Shell's UK supply business lost £100m in their last set of accounts.

Their production business will have raked it in last year.   This is where talk of a windfall tax on 'energy companies' is useful but needs to detailed out a bit.   People making money last year are wholesale producers of energy provided they hadn't forward hedged, which is the opposite to the criticism of 'irresponsibly managed' supply businesses that hadn't hedged.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 February, 2022, 09:57:19 am
Tripped across this article on the Guardian earlier, had the devil's own job trying to find it again to post here.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/01/new-super-tax-to-deter-energy-firm-owners-from-gas-profiteering
Another sign that the no limits free-market ideology of the Thatcher and Reagan era is gone. Except when ministers feel they'll benefit.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 03 February, 2022, 11:15:06 am
Price cap to increase by £693 from April
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/price-cap-increase-ps693-april

 :-\
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 February, 2022, 11:16:53 am
54% is more than predicted.  That should be the end of the Tories, whether it's their fault or not.  Red wall voters aren't going to vote for the incumbent party when they're starving and freezing.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 03 February, 2022, 11:24:19 am
Who got rid of the gas storage unit?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 February, 2022, 11:51:17 am
Rishi's rushed giveaway means I will see no actual increase and, frankly, I don't need support to pay the bill (I just mildly resent it).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 03 February, 2022, 12:45:56 pm
Rishi's rushed giveaway means I will see no actual increase
Giveaway? The £200 looks like an interest free loan, repaid at £40 a year, smoke and mirrors. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it.
The £150 Council Tax discount is a blunt tool, there's already a system to discount CT for the less well off, the money would have been better used to extend that rather than buy votes. They're banking on people seeing the cash and forgetting the NI increase that it doesn't cover.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Giropaul on 03 February, 2022, 01:23:44 pm
I don’t understand. The oil price has been up and down, but I recently bought a tank full of heating oil for a lower price than about 9 months ago.
We are told that we have increased our use of renewable electricity sources. Have wind and sun gone up in price!
Meanwhile the CEO of EON takes home £1.1 million.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 February, 2022, 02:00:18 pm
I don’t understand. The oil price has been up and down, but I recently bought a tank full of heating oil for a lower price than about 9 months ago.
We are told that we have increased our use of renewable electricity sources. Have wind and sun gone up in price!
Meanwhile the CEO of EON takes home £1.1 million.

Oil and gas prices are not really correlated.   Global gas prices have been at all time highs.

Despite the build out of renewables we still generate circa 50% of power from gas.   Gas goes up, power goes up.

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 03 February, 2022, 02:35:24 pm
This website is reet informative - https://grid.iamkate.com/
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 03 February, 2022, 02:45:39 pm
Perhaps I'm not understanding - but I can't find an answer to what I think is a simple question . . . the "price cap" is, I assume, based on a "typical consumer" using gas or electric and the cap determines the rates per Kwh for each fuel for that consumption.

So what is the per Kwh price that it's based on for gas and electric?   

All I can see is stuff about swingeing increases - not the basis of that statement.

We have a fixed deal - all I'm trying to find out is how our Kwh per fuel rates compare with the "cap basis" rates (and likewise standing charge rates)

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rafletcher on 03 February, 2022, 03:08:18 pm
Despite the build out of renewables we still generate circa 50% of power from gas.   Gas goes up, power goes up.

Also of course, gas powered generation is almost instant on at times of peak demand - and I'm not sure renewables will ever completely fill that niche.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 February, 2022, 03:21:18 pm
Perhaps I'm not understanding - but I can't find an answer to what I think is a simple question . . . the "price cap" is, I assume, based on a "typical consumer" using gas or electric and the cap determines the rates per Kwh for each fuel for that consumption.

So what is the per Kwh price that it's based on for gas and electric?   

All I can see is stuff about swingeing increases - not the basis of that statement.

We have a fixed deal - all I'm trying to find out is how our Kwh per fuel rates compare with the "cap basis" rates (and likewise standing charge rates)

It's well tucked away.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/price-cap-increase-ps693-april

"The values shown in the text above include VAT and are expressed for the current Typical Domestic Consumption Values (TDCV) of 2,900kWh of electricity, 12,000kWh of gas, and 4,200kWh of electricity for Economy 7. The price cap is a cap on a unit of gas and electricity, with standing charges taken into account. It is not a cap on customers’ overall energy bills, which will still rise or fall in line with their energy consumption. From 1 April the equivalent per unit level of the price cap to the nearest pence for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 28p per kWh for electricity customers and 7p per kWh for gas customers"
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 03 February, 2022, 03:22:59 pm
This website is reet informative - https://grid.iamkate.com/

This is the official industry website but I suspect they both scrape from the same core data.

https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=eds/main
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 03 February, 2022, 03:38:45 pm
Perhaps I'm not understanding - but I can't find an answer to what I think is a simple question . . . the "price cap" is, I assume, based on a "typical consumer" using gas or electric and the cap determines the rates per Kwh for each fuel for that consumption.

So what is the per Kwh price that it's based on for gas and electric?   

All I can see is stuff about swingeing increases - not the basis of that statement.

We have a fixed deal - all I'm trying to find out is how our Kwh per fuel rates compare with the "cap basis" rates (and likewise standing charge rates)

It's well tucked away.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/price-cap-increase-ps693-april

"The values shown in the text above include VAT and are expressed for the current Typical Domestic Consumption Values (TDCV) of 2,900kWh of electricity, 12,000kWh of gas, and 4,200kWh of electricity for Economy 7. The price cap is a cap on a unit of gas and electricity, with standing charges taken into account. It is not a cap on customers’ overall energy bills, which will still rise or fall in line with their energy consumption. From 1 April the equivalent per unit level of the price cap to the nearest pence for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 28p per kWh for electricity customers and 7p per kWh for gas customers"

Thanks - as you say rather deviously hidden!   Our fixed rates to mid '23 are 22p electric and 6.3p gas so that looks like good news . . .  s/c seems to be a mysterius variable though, although a relatively small proportion of our expenditure so not as important as the consumption rate.

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 February, 2022, 08:26:29 pm
I'm a light user and standing charges are horrific as a percentage of the bill - 1/4 for gas.  They increased the daily charge from 7p to 28p on the electricity side, too.  WTAF?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 05 February, 2022, 12:10:59 pm
Just been looking at the electricity tariff I'm on since the collapse of my supplier and being moved to British Gas.  Even before the cap increases the cost has gone up 60%, standing charge from 11.1p to 23.77p @ day and the unit cost from 13.1p to 20.32. For the same usage as this time last year, that's an increase from £31 to £49 a month.  I understand the reasons for the unit cost, but like others can't see any justification for increasing the standing charge.

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2022, 08:17:12 am
Just been looking at the ‘rebate’ on energy bills.

Basically, it’s a loan.  Everyone will get a credit of £200 in October.  This will then be collected back over the following 5 years.  This smooths increased costs out over time rather than gifting anyone anything.  I’m on a fixed rate as there was a decent renewal offer that removed any exposure to the cap change, but I get the credit as well.  I would have expected it to only be paid to customers on SVR.  I’m not complaining but any payment is not designed to help people like me.  Probably policy implemented in a very short space of time.

The French have dealt with this very differently, forcing EDF to supply customers at a profitable but heavily discounted rate.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2022, 08:31:16 am
Also power cut this morning allowed me to discover that we are with an independent distributor rather than EPN.  Only had the place for a year.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 06 February, 2022, 09:38:20 am
Just been looking at the ‘rebate’ on energy bills.

Basically, it’s a loan.  Everyone will get a credit of £200 in October.  This will then be collected back over the following 5 years.  This smooths increased costs out over time rather than gifting anyone anything.
The Chancellor is gambling that prices will fall, if they don't or continue rising, we'll all have a bigger increase to face next year when you have that to pay that plus £40.  It's like a payday loan, if you can't afford it this year, you'll be less likely to afford an increased amount next. The money would have been better targeted at those in need.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2022, 09:56:08 am
Just been looking at the ‘rebate’ on energy bills.

Basically, it’s a loan.  Everyone will get a credit of £200 in October.  This will then be collected back over the following 5 years.  This smooths increased costs out over time rather than gifting anyone anything.
The Chancellor is gambling that prices will fall, if they don't or continue rising, we'll all have a bigger increase to face next year when you have that to pay that plus £40.  It's like a payday loan, if you can't afford it this year, you'll be less likely to afford an increased amount next. The money would have been better targeted at those in need.

Based on the current forward wholesale market he’s probably right.  As an example Winter 22 is 19.5p and Winter 24 is 12p.  This is probably a temporary large uptick, although a return to previous prices is unlikely.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 February, 2022, 10:08:40 am
So, if folk swap suppliers either by necessity or whim what happens to the loan?  Also, isn't the loan less favourable to folk who find themselves on standard tariffs due to being transferred as it is to folk who were fortunate enough to be in the position to get a cheaper deal? 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2022, 10:45:01 am
So, if folk swap suppliers either by necessity or whim what happens to the loan?  Also, isn't the loan less favourable to folk who find themselves on standard tariffs due to being transferred as it is to folk who were fortunate enough to be in the position to get a cheaper deal?

Who said energy policy was well thought out ?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 February, 2022, 11:00:22 am
(Googles)

Apparently we do have a Minister of State for Business, Energy and Clean Growth, viz. Greg “Who He?” Hands.  Anyone seen him on the electric-type television recently, or indeed at all?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 February, 2022, 11:54:19 am
Next year? What about October when they can change the cap again?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 February, 2022, 11:54:47 am
(Googles)

Apparently we do have a Minister of State for Business, Energy and Clean Growth, viz. Greg “Who He?” Hands.  Anyone seen him on the electric-type television recently, or indeed at all?

Only defending our inglorious leader.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 06 February, 2022, 12:09:38 pm
So, if folk swap suppliers either by necessity or whim what happens to the loan? 
For the consumer? They have the ability to transfer credit so I doubt transferring the debt will be an issue.  Except I don't think it's being treated as a personal debt, the money is going to the suppliers, so I expect everyone's bill will go down £200 this year and up £40 @ year for the next five.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: perpetual dan on 06 February, 2022, 12:25:03 pm
A blanket discount and then price hike seems designed to work against anyone young enough to get their first energy bill in the next few years. Though they mostly wouldn’t vote Tory. Or couple separating, where a couple might get one discount and then two repayments as individuals.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 06 February, 2022, 01:29:17 pm
A blanket discount and then price hike seems designed to work against anyone young enough to get their first energy bill in the next few years. Though they mostly wouldn’t vote Tory. Or couple separating, where a couple might get one discount and then two repayments as individuals.

The flip side of that is that the number of electricity supplies is only going to go up as new houses are built.  Which means the treasury is quids-in.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 February, 2022, 02:37:37 pm
(Googles)

Apparently we do have a Minister of State for Business, Energy and Clean Growth, viz. Greg “Who He?” Hands.  Anyone seen him on the electric-type television recently, or indeed at all?

Only defending our inglorious leader.

Curious behaviour from one who supported the leadership bid of Jeremy Rhyming-Slang :demon:
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2022, 02:38:31 pm
A blanket discount and then price hike seems designed to work against anyone young enough to get their first energy bill in the next few years. Though they mostly wouldn’t vote Tory. Or couple separating, where a couple might get one discount and then two repayments as individuals.

It currently looks like the cap will come down in October.  In theory, the increase due to the loan repayment will be more than offset by the drop in tariff.  Of course a lot can change in the next year.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: perpetual dan on 06 February, 2022, 02:49:09 pm
A blanket discount and then price hike seems designed to work against anyone young enough to get their first energy bill in the next few years. Though they mostly wouldn’t vote Tory. Or couple separating, where a couple might get one discount and then two repayments as individuals.

It currently looks like the cap will come down in October.  In theory, the increase due to the loan repayment will be more than offset by the drop in tariff.  Of course a lot can change in the next year.

Presumably the drop in the bottom line on the bill would be even larger without a loan repayment though. Or have I misunderstood the way the loan works?

I get that for many people some measure to take the pressure off when bills are at their highest will be a life saver. I was more responding to the idea that it would be a flat +£40 all round after. For some people that will be far from fair. Also, what Kim said.

I suspect this one of those hastily thought up announcements that hasn't actually been designed to really help people in general.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2022, 03:18:17 pm
A blanket discount and then price hike seems designed to work against anyone young enough to get their first energy bill in the next few years. Though they mostly wouldn’t vote Tory. Or couple separating, where a couple might get one discount and then two repayments as individuals.

It currently looks like the cap will come down in October.  In theory, the increase due to the loan repayment will be more than offset by the drop in tariff.  Of course a lot can change in the next year.

Presumably the drop in the bottom line on the bill would be even larger without a loan repayment though. Or have I misunderstood the way the loan works?

I get that for many people some measure to take the pressure off when bills are at their highest will be a life saver. I was more responding to the idea that it would be a flat +£40 all round after. For some people that will be far from fair. Also, what Kim said.

I suspect this one of those hastily thought up announcements that hasn't actually been designed to really help people in general.

I’ll caveat this by saying that we, as an industry, don’t really know yet.

The cap has just risen by the equivalent of £700 pa.   If it drops back to the original level next year then customers will see a £660 saving instead.  Basically as you describe.  I would say the £200 isn’t enough but we are going into Summer where people use a lot less energy.  They will then get a £200 credit going into the higher use period of the year and the cap may be lower.  It smooths the spend out rather than gifting anything.

Ofgem have said they are planning to review the cap 3-monthly rather than 6-monthly.   This would fix an element of the issues that have been found recently.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: barakta on 06 February, 2022, 04:51:46 pm
Except a 3 monthly review of the cap screws over people on fixed incomes more as they have more uncertainty and no opportunity for that to feed into things like benefit allowances or minimum wage or other government assistance...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2022, 05:15:27 pm
Except a 3 monthly review of the cap screws over people on fixed incomes more as they have more uncertainty and no opportunity for that to feed into things like benefit allowances or minimum wage or other government assistance...

The thing with the cap is that no-one should ever really have to pay it.  We are in the really daft position until the end of March where the cap is cheaper than anyone can supply energy.  From 1st April the cap goes up and there should be some competitive deals out there.  Once you’ve signed a one year fix you know your costs.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 07 February, 2022, 09:26:09 am
Just been looking at the ‘rebate’ on energy bills.

Basically, it’s a loan.  Everyone will get a credit of £200 in October.  This will then be collected back over the following 5 years.  This smooths increased costs out over time rather than gifting anyone anything.  I’m on a fixed rate as there was a decent renewal offer that removed any exposure to the cap change, but I get the credit as well.  I would have expected it to only be paid to customers on SVR.  I’m not complaining but any payment is not designed to help people like me.  Probably policy implemented in a very short space of time.

The French have dealt with this very differently, forcing EDF to supply customers at a profitable but heavily discounted rate.

Technically it's a gift to the energy supply companies, dressed up as a loan to consumers. Since it's not optional, we have all basically all given them an extra £200 each. They don't have to pay this back, we do.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2022, 09:39:23 am
Just been looking at the ‘rebate’ on energy bills.

Basically, it’s a loan.  Everyone will get a credit of £200 in October.  This will then be collected back over the following 5 years.  This smooths increased costs out over time rather than gifting anyone anything.  I’m on a fixed rate as there was a decent renewal offer that removed any exposure to the cap change, but I get the credit as well.  I would have expected it to only be paid to customers on SVR.  I’m not complaining but any payment is not designed to help people like me.  Probably policy implemented in a very short space of time.

The French have dealt with this very differently, forcing EDF to supply customers at a profitable but heavily discounted rate.

Technically it's a gift to the energy supply companies, dressed up as a loan to consumers. Since it's not optional, we have all basically all given them an extra £200 each. They don't have to pay this back, we do.

Govt gives energy supplier £200
supplier gives consumer £200

Consumer pays back 5 * £40 to supplier
supplier pays back to Govt

I see no gifts here ?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 07 February, 2022, 10:33:49 am
The suppliers are never going to pay £200 back though – and even if they were, it's a costly administrative nightmare for a modest sum of money.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2022, 10:52:12 am
The suppliers are never going to pay £200 back though – and even if they were, it's a costly administrative nightmare for a modest sum of money.

Have you got a crystal ball ?   as that's a bit of a leap......

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 07 February, 2022, 11:06:19 am
Well, true, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

I'd be interested to know what guarantees are in place to ensure the money is paid back, and how much of that £200/person is actually returned to the exchequer, presumably adjusted for inflation and to include interest.

I do know that effectively, energy suppliers now have £200/person they didn't have before, so charitably it's a very cheap, subsidized loan. That they're temporarily transferring the cash to their customers is a bit of a feint, since the customers can only give them the money back.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2022, 11:11:42 am
Well, true, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

I'd be interested to know what guarantees are in place to ensure the money is paid back, and how much of that £200/person is actually returned to the exchequer, presumably adjusted for inflation and to include interest.

I do know that effectively, energy suppliers now have £200/person they didn't have before, so charitably it's a very cheap, subsidized loan. That they're temporarily transferring the cash to their customers is a bit of a feint, since the customers can only give them the money back.

Policy was announced last Thursday.   As I mentioned upthread there's no detail.

Anyway I am getting dragged into all this again so will drop out.   I have had to put up with a shitload of misinformation from both sides of the political spectrum over the weekend and I just don't have the energy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 07 February, 2022, 11:15:12 am
I'm not arguing with you – I'm making the general point that as policy goes, this seems poorly thought out and ultimately unhelpful to the people who need the help (and I expect a sleight of hand). You don't need to defend government policy, my points were rhetorical.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 07 February, 2022, 05:24:38 pm
Well, true, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

I'd be interested to know what guarantees are in place to ensure the money is paid back, and how much of that £200/person is actually returned to the exchequer, presumably adjusted for inflation and to include interest.

I do know that effectively, energy suppliers now have £200/person they didn't have before, so charitably it's a very cheap, subsidized loan. That they're temporarily transferring the cash to their customers is a bit of a feint, since the customers can only give them the money back.


Policy was announced last Thursday.   As I mentioned upthread there's no detail.

Anyway I am getting dragged into all this again so will drop out.   I have had to put up with a shitload of misinformation from both sides of the political spectrum over the weekend and I just don't have the energy.

Your input into this whole discussion is greatly appreciated and has helped me understand just wtf is going on.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hubner on 07 February, 2022, 05:35:32 pm
I'm a light user and standing charges are horrific as a percentage of the bill - 1/4 for gas.  They increased the daily charge from 7p to 28p on the electricity side, too.  WTAF?

I think light users get ripped off by standing charges.

They reduce the unit price to comply with a price cap but jack up the standing charges.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38891010

Quote
Energy prepay cap to save customers £80, announces Ofgem

Four million customers on prepayment energy meters are expected to save around £80 a year after a price cap was announced by energy regulator Ofgem.

The temporary price cap, which comes into effect in April, was one of the measures recommended by the Competition and Market Authority after its two-year investigation of the energy market.

The levels of the cap vary for gas and electricity by meter type and region.

It will be updated every six months and is expected to stay until 2020.


OK; current Npower electricity prepayment prices:
standing charge: 11.5p per day or £42 per year
unit rate: 16.66p per kWh

One year low usage: 870 units + standing charge = £187

New price with the cap:
standing charge: 28.76p per day or £105 per year
unit rate: 13.33p per kWh

One year low usage: 870 units + standing charge = £221

That's an increase of £34; just over 18%!

And the standing charge is going up two and a half times. I think standing charges are a massive con.

Npowers gives 2 reasons for the price increase:
Quote
1, the prepayment price cap...which limits ...the cost of electricity and gas you'll pay
2, to bring prepayment prices into line with other electricity tariffs within the Cap limits

I'm not sure what the second means, apart from they have to reduce the the unit rate because of the cap but they will jack up the standing charge to keep the overall price the same or more.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2022, 07:56:03 pm
Fact check.  The standing charge is included in the price cap calculation.


https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 February, 2022, 08:20:44 pm
Yes but as Hubner says it still raises the effective price per unit for those who use few units.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hubner on 07 February, 2022, 08:26:13 pm
The price cap might include the standing charge now, but it wasn't in 2017.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2022, 09:02:07 pm
The price cap might include the standing charge now, but it wasn't in 2017.

Your challenge was that suppliers are using the standing charge to get round the price cap.  This is not true.

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Quisling on 07 February, 2022, 09:12:24 pm
Except a 3 monthly review of the cap screws over people on fixed incomes more as they have more uncertainty and no opportunity for that to feed into things like benefit allowances or minimum wage or other government assistance...

However, it screws over the licensed energy suppliers less. Bearing in mind 29 of them have gone bust and none of the others are prepared to take on new customers until the cap rises the competitive market is essentially broken unless suppliers can limit exposure.

I can't think of other markets where this sort of daft cap applies.  The government don't cap the cost of a weekly shop-up to less than what it costs the supermarket chains to buy it for example.  The problem then is one of poverty more generally and the inability of households to cope with sharp changes in any costs of living.

Fuel poverty, or "stress" is a multi-million household problem in the UK which (a) supports the case for Insulate Britain blocking motorways and (b) is a huge indictment on the government's claims to be "levelling-up".  See also food banks etc.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2022, 09:26:51 pm
What Quisling said….

Here’s some backing info.  Bulb, Octopus, Ovo, the councils, etc never turned a profit even before the madness at the end of last year.  SSE and npower sold their residential supply businesses.  Centrica’s share price collapsed.

There is no evidence to support the assertion that suppliers are ripping customers off.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 08 February, 2022, 06:54:25 am
I don't know much about this market so am always pleased to get the inside story from Felstedrider, who is an expert in it. 

However I do know a fair bit about private equity firms and how they extract value from firms while minimising tax liabilities, using debt, transfer pricing, management fees and other strategies. So lack of profits doesn't necessarily disprove 'ripping off', and is potentially a sign to dig deeper.  I haven't got time for that but a couple of minutes research reminded me that the talk of 'ripping off' was primarily directed at the big 6 and, in particular, the tariffs they charged consumers who didn't bother to shop around and switch. And I didn't find anything which suggested to me that the guys who went bust were 'ripping off'. 

I found this article quite interesting, which suggested that the Big 6 might have been right after all and the government's strategy now might be to push operators back in that direction - probably with better terms for non-switchers:
https://news.sky.com/story/keep-your-fingers-crossed-strategy-leaving-smaller-energy-suppliers-out-in-the-cold-12412934
 (https://news.sky.com/story/keep-your-fingers-crossed-strategy-leaving-smaller-energy-suppliers-out-in-the-cold-12412934)

This is where the ripping off theme seems to have started, in parliament:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/12/millions-overpaying-energy-bills-admits-ministry-big-six (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/12/millions-overpaying-energy-bills-admits-ministry-big-six)

If I now had to give a view, based purely on what I've learned from FR and my two minutes on google, it would be that, rather than having been a rip-off, the market has suffered from political interference to coerce, encourage and enable operators with shaky business models to offer artificially low prices which proved unsustainable.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 February, 2022, 09:01:33 am
Except a 3 monthly review of the cap screws over people on fixed incomes more as they have more uncertainty and no opportunity for that to feed into things like benefit allowances or minimum wage or other government assistance...

However, it screws over the licensed energy suppliers less. Bearing in mind 29 of them have gone bust and none of the others are prepared to take on new customers until the cap rises the competitive market is essentially broken unless suppliers can limit exposure.

I can't think of other markets where this sort of daft cap applies.  The government don't cap the cost of a weekly shop-up to less than what it costs the supermarket chains to buy it for example.  The problem then is one of poverty more generally and the inability of households to cope with sharp changes in any costs of living.

Fuel poverty, or "stress" is a multi-million household problem in the UK which (a) supports the case for Insulate Britain blocking motorways and (b) is a huge indictment on the government's claims to be "levelling-up".  See also food banks etc.
Very much so. From the consumer's point of view, there is poverty; specifying it as "fuel poverty" or "food poverty" or "rent poverty" might be semi-useful to identify large or rapidly-rising costs, but the basic problem is just poverty. Mr Micawber's rule applies, as it had done for a few thousand years before Dickens.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 08 February, 2022, 09:11:57 am
...
If I now had to give a view, based purely on what I've learned from FR and my two minutes on google, it would be that, rather than having been a rip-off, the market has suffered from political interference to coerce, encourage and enable operators with shaky business models to offer artificially low prices which proved unsustainable.

I think I wrote similar some time back. Hell of way to run an energy market, I think. As ever, this mess should be on the government's doormat.

I still think their proposal to 'help' people is at best quarterwitted, at worse a dubious bung to keep the remaining suppliers in the market.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 February, 2022, 09:16:56 am
It is of course inevitable that households in fuel poverty are also households in food poverty.

The approach to the fuel price crisis reflects the confusion amongst the believers of how a free market model can fail so badly.  If gas and electricity had remained nationalised then the cost of these essentials need not change because the balance sheet would simply be a treasury matter funded from taxation and borrowing.  Adding in layers of middlemen resulting in expectations of profits and excess wage structures for faux executives simply jacks up the price anyway.

For food poverty we have food banks.  For poverty wages we have benefits.  For fuel poverty we have loans.  Three contrasting systems that only one has a hope of working well (and does) and that's food banks.  Ironic then that the government has no grubbies in the pie there then.  No?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 09 February, 2022, 09:52:12 pm
I don’t understand. The oil price has been up and down, but I recently bought a tank full of heating oil for a lower price than about 9 months ago.
We are told that we have increased our use of renewable electricity sources. Have wind and sun gone up in price!
Meanwhile the CEO of EON takes home £1.1 million.

Oil and gas prices are not really correlated.   Global gas prices have been at all time highs.

Despite the build out of renewables we still generate circa 50% of power from gas.   Gas goes up, power goes up.

The UK's low-carbon energy supplies are dominated by wind power, which when its windy can generate up to 20GW, about 50% of the average current electricity demand on a winter's day.  When its mostly calm, this drops to 2GW.  The difference is mostly made up by burning gas.  Many European countries have followed a similar model.  The second half of 2021 was exceptional for low winds, which meant unprecedented demand for gas.  Hence the price went sky high. 

Our other big investment in renewable energy is solar, which next summer could generate 10GW or 30% of our average current summer electricity demand.  Even in winter it can generate 2- 3GW when there's a reasonable amount of daylight, but will never dent into the gap above.

There are three other low carbon ways to generate electricity which aren't subject to the vagaries of the weather.  1) Hydro - but our geography isn't conducive to that - it helps if you have lots of mountains.  If you flooded most of the valleys in the Scottish Highlands you'd meet some of our needs but not all.  2) Nuclear - there are lot of people who have objections and it would take 10 years for any new projects to come on line.  3) Tidal - we've  got the best geography in the world for that, but there are a lot of environmental objections to walling off large parts of the Bristol Channel, and the Thames and installing huge turbines.  However, without any of these three we will be at the mercy of fluctuating energy prices.

There isn't a single option that anyone will vote for.  And if we do nothing voters will complain to the government about its failure of environmental policy.  Much as I have little love for the current government, it, and any of its successors will have its backs to the wall on this topic.

Sorry, I have a soap box on this one.  I'll get off it now.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 February, 2022, 10:50:10 pm
Doing some big tidal projects is the obvious answer but the government that forces them through will get voted out. Currently, the UK government is more interested in lining their pockets than securing the country’s long-term power supply.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 February, 2022, 11:44:26 pm
Given recent lack of rainfall in certain areas, converting some of the scottish hydro schemes to pumped storage may be a good thing, only problem is where to get the water from...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 February, 2022, 08:40:35 am
I thought, but I may be wrong, that the Swansea bay tidal project was popular locally, no?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 10 February, 2022, 08:56:23 am
I thought, but I may be wrong, that the Swansea bay tidal project was popular locally, no?

http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/swansea-bay/

I first met the developer behind this 10 years ago.   I think the problem is that tidal projects are just so expensive.   The subsidy regime (CfD now the RO is closed) favours cheaper technologies like offshore wind.

The phase 3 offshore wind projects are huge but won't start to deliver until the back end of the decade.

Solar is profitable at current market prices, unsubsidised, as the cost of the panels has come down and the yield is so much better with modern tech.   But the panels are difficult to get hold of (production issues in China) and the shipping costs have increased significantly.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 10 February, 2022, 08:56:59 am
Swansea Bay was pretty popular (boating, fishing, remediation of degraded brownfield waterfront, etc.) but the government pulled the pin because of cost, despite it being a pilot project with costs expected to fall for subsequent projects. Part of the project cost was reopening rock quarries in the southwest and building loading facilities to bring the rock armour around by water. Sizeable up-front cost but fairly low operating cost. Alternative rock would have come from Norway (big rock pieces aren't currently available in the UK).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rafletcher on 10 February, 2022, 09:06:56 am
Given recent lack of rainfall in certain areas, converting some of the scottish hydro schemes to pumped storage may be a good thing, only problem is where to get the water from...

There's alos the transmission issues - it isn't practical (or, if vague memory serves me, possible) to send power generatied in Scotland to London to be used.

And there are restrictions on supply length dependant on the type of load needing it - again, beyond mytechnical ken, but others I'm sure can explain it.  For some instances - instantaneous demand from air conditioners for example, only locally (FCVO of local) gernerated power will suffice.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Feanor on 10 February, 2022, 09:16:20 am
There's a large upgrade of the HV transmission network in Scotland ongoing to address this.
Both the East and West coast main transmission lines are being upgraded from 275 to 400 kV.
Several HVDC interconnectors are being put in place, and lots of new and upgraded substations for renewables tie-in.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 10 February, 2022, 09:57:11 am

There's also the transmission issues - it isn't practical (or, if vague memory serves me, possible) to send power generated in Scotland to London to be used.


There are times when Grid need to bid off Scottish generation.   Not because the UK is long overall but because the transmission constraints mean it can't be moved over the border.   As Feanor points out there are physical reinforcements taking place that will avoid this issue in the future.   There is a lot of offshore wind that will hook onto the Scottish Grid.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 February, 2022, 10:51:25 am
Swansea Bay was pretty popular (boating, fishing, remediation of degraded brownfield waterfront, etc.) but the government pulled the pin on cost reasons, despite it being a pilot project with costs expected to fall for subsequent projects. Part of the project cost was reopening rock quarries in the southwest and building loading facilities to bring the rock armour around by water. Sizeable up-front cost but fairly low operating cost. Alternative rock would have come from Norway (big rock pieces aren't currently available in the UK).
In contrast, a quarry in South Glos was reopened to provide rock for Hinkley Point. But I don't know the relative quantities or sizes involved.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 10 February, 2022, 11:31:49 am
Swansea required rock pieces weighing several tonnes each for both sides (different sizes each side) of a several kilometres long bund.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rafletcher on 10 February, 2022, 12:29:11 pm

There's also the transmission issues - it isn't practical (or, if vague memory serves me, possible) to send power generated in Scotland to London to be used.


There are times when Grid need to bid off Scottish generation.   Not because the UK is long overall but because the transmission constraints mean it can't be moved over the border.   As Feanor points out there are physical reinforcements taking place that will avoid this issue in the future.   There is a lot of offshore wind that will hook onto the Scottish Grid.

I meant to say "not possible for technical reasons", not because it was along way away.  :-)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 February, 2022, 03:14:49 pm
Given recent lack of rainfall in certain areas, converting some of the scottish hydro schemes to pumped storage may be a good thing, only problem is where to get the water from...

There's alos the transmission issues - it isn't practical (or, if vague memory serves me, possible) to send power generatied in Scotland to London to be used.

And there are restrictions on supply length dependant on the type of load needing it - again, beyond mytechnical ken, but others I'm sure can explain it.  For some instances - instantaneous demand from air conditioners for example, only locally (FCVO of local) gernerated power will suffice.

The main problem is that HVAC lines disrupt the migratory paths of Haggis.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 22 February, 2022, 04:27:16 pm
We're with Octopus now, on flexible rates. 

In general, anyone know the reason why are the daily standing charges for elect are going up so much?  Approaching 190% rise...


                               Oct-21    Apr-22   % inc
Elect  Price per KWH   0.2049   0.2834   138.3
     Daily charge           0.2411   0.4534   188.1
Gas     Price per KWH   0.0413   0.0737   178.5
     Daily charge           0.2611   0.2722   104.3
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 22 February, 2022, 05:20:21 pm
Because it makes the unit rate cheaper?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 22 February, 2022, 06:36:49 pm
And it rakes more money from low use customers.   It seems a truly cynical and awful policy given the awareness of fuel poverty.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 February, 2022, 08:53:57 am
And it rakes more money from low use customers.   It seems a truly cynical and awful policy given the awareness of fuel poverty.

No-one is making money in the supply sector.   
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 23 February, 2022, 09:01:15 am
Perhaps not but by massively hiking the standing charge the effect is to disproportionately target low volume users who tend mainly to be poorer people.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 February, 2022, 09:02:34 am
They expect people to economise on use, so this guarantees at least some of their pound of flesh.

Also: Ofgem is not fit for purpose.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 February, 2022, 09:09:14 am
Both the standing charge and the unit rate are set using the price cap methodology set by Ofgem.   Suppliers aren't able to cross subsidise.

I am not sure as to why the SC has risen so much and all the people I used to ask have gone bust.   I'll see if I can find out.

Some background where we see things at the moment.   Wholesale has risen further since the new cap was announced (something to do with a bit of political instability) which gives us 2 issues :-

1. No suppliers will be able to undercut the price cap come 1 Apr so anyone on SVR is stuck with it *.   This also means suppliers forced to supply at negative margins (again).
2. It is currently forecast that the cap will go up again 1 Oct.


* Further forward prices are lower so there might be some 2-3yr deals available that could look attractive.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: CAMRAMan on 23 February, 2022, 09:43:56 am
One of my better decisions last June was to sign up to a 2-year fixed deal with Octopus. I suspect June 2023 will bring with it something of a shock!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: TimC on 23 February, 2022, 12:01:16 pm
One of my better decisions last June was to sign up to a 2-year fixed deal with Octopus. I suspect June 2023 will bring with it something of a shock!

Me too!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 February, 2022, 08:35:42 am
Both the standing charge and the unit rate are set using the price cap methodology set by Ofgem.   Suppliers aren't able to cross subsidise.

I am not sure as to why the SC has risen so much and all the people I used to ask have gone bust.   I'll see if I can find out.

Some background where we see things at the moment.   Wholesale has risen further since the new cap was announced (something to do with a bit of political instability) which gives us 2 issues :-

1. No suppliers will be able to undercut the price cap come 1 Apr so anyone on SVR is stuck with it *.   This also means suppliers forced to supply at negative margins (again).
2. It is currently forecast that the cap will go up again 1 Oct.


* Further forward prices are lower so there might be some 2-3yr deals available that could look attractive.

*Update*

I think the standing charge increase is because the mutualised costs of other supplier failures are recouped through fixed industry costs.   A couple of people have now told me that so I'm inclined to think its correct.

Also, the wholesale market is up getting on for 20% this morning.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 24 February, 2022, 08:53:11 am
Sodding crappy sight.  I can't even see enough to successfully link fucking articles now.  I am off to sulk.    😥😥😥😥😥
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 24 February, 2022, 09:00:29 am
I think the standing charge increase is because the mutualised costs of other supplier failures are recouped through fixed industry costs.   
In the most regressive manner possible.  What else do you expect from the current kakistocracy?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 24 February, 2022, 09:11:11 am
I think the standing charge increase is because the mutualised costs of other supplier failures are recouped through fixed industry costs.   
In the most regressive manner possible.  What else do you expect from the current kakistocracy?

If I were to be fair (and I hate myself for it), it has always been this way.   It's just that no-one has noticed before as the number was never really all that big.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: nicknack on 24 February, 2022, 09:29:17 am
We've just had an email from our gas and elec supplier (SSE) informing us that our annual bill will go up by £740 from 1st April. It's a pain but we're not going to be broke - unlike many, I suspect.  :(
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 24 February, 2022, 09:54:04 am
I hate all of this.

I'd be financially well off; low housing costs, good salary; except that I have dependents in their 20s. Most of them are working, some working two jobs. Without providing them with subsidised housing, or cash, they'd be sinking.

The energy costs are simply terrifying. Unless there is a huge change, winter 2022 will see substantial numbers of people dying of hypothermia in the UK.

So in the period of my life when I should be looking to pay off mortgages, accumulate a nest egg, I need to look to maintaining a high income.

It's so depressing for the young people. Twenty times harder than when I was their age, utterly dispiriting.

Getting to the point where I resent the amount of tax I pay, because I'm not seeing any benefits for me or mine.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 February, 2022, 11:36:37 am
I've just received an Indeed notification of a job vacancy at Ovo. I thought they were one of the firms that had gone bust!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 February, 2022, 08:02:14 am
I've just received an Indeed notification of a job vacancy at Ovo. I thought they were one of the firms that had gone bust!

Still doing reasonably well in terms of growth (they took SSEs customers) and took a chunk of investment in.  2020s accounts don’t look pretty, though and a few of the management team walked not long afterwards.

I’m a customer and their platform is quite use friendly.

Big employer in Bristol.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 February, 2022, 09:27:59 am
Wholesale prices jumped on Thursday and then calmed.  By the close on Friday they were lower than Monday/Tuesday.  Still high, but no sustained madness.

Looking at the underlying data.  Gas transit through Ukraine increased at the end of the week and gas started to flow via Belarus again.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 February, 2022, 10:52:58 am

There's also the transmission issues - it isn't practical (or, if vague memory serves me, possible) to send power generated in Scotland to London to be used.


There are times when Grid need to bid off Scottish generation.   Not because the UK is long overall but because the transmission constraints mean it can't be moved over the border.   As Feanor points out there are physical reinforcements taking place that will avoid this issue in the future.   There is a lot of offshore wind that will hook onto the Scottish Grid.

I meant to say "not possible for technical reasons", not because it was along way away.  :-)
I was thinking of domestic usage first exports second.
Quite a big supplier of electric here was killed off by the pricing regime.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Tim Hall on 28 February, 2022, 08:52:37 pm
My fixed price deal with Octopus comes to an end soon.
Options are 12M fixed, standing charges as before, big hike in unit rates for both gas and electricity or standard flexible (double for electricity to  36.46p /kWh, three times for gas at 9.68p/kWh), or standard variable with electricity at 21.37p/kWh, gas 4.01p/kWh.

Presumably the standard variable will go up and down as wholesale prices fluctuate. 
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 28 February, 2022, 10:02:15 pm
My fixed price deal with Octopus comes to an end soon.
Options are 12M fixed, standing charges as before, big hike in unit rates for both gas and electricity or standard flexible (double for electricity to  36.46p /kWh, three times for gas at 9.68p/kWh), or standard variable with electricity at 21.37p/kWh, gas 4.01p/kWh.

Presumably the standard variable will go up and down as wholesale prices fluctuate.
I'm in exactly the same situation.
As of today, I'm tempted to stick with the SVR. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer the stability of knowing what my monthly outgoings are, but there's a limit
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 01 March, 2022, 08:09:19 am
My fixed price deal with Octopus comes to an end soon.
Options are 12M fixed, standing charges as before, big hike in unit rates for both gas and electricity or standard flexible (double for electricity to  36.46p /kWh, three times for gas at 9.68p/kWh), or standard variable with electricity at 21.37p/kWh, gas 4.01p/kWh.

Presumably the standard variable will go up and down as wholesale prices fluctuate.
I'm in exactly the same situation.
As of today, I'm tempted to stick with the SVR. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer the stability of knowing what my monthly outgoings are, but there's a limit

The SVR will be the cap.   It is fixed until the end of Sep.   If wholesale prices drop, and they have to drop a lot, then suppliers may reduce their SVR.  So variable rates can go down but not up.

The next cap period starts 1st Oct, but the calculation window is only just starting.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Tim Hall on 01 March, 2022, 11:22:33 am
My fixed price deal with Octopus comes to an end soon.
Options are 12M fixed, standing charges as before, big hike in unit rates for both gas and electricity or standard flexible (double for electricity to  36.46p /kWh, three times for gas at 9.68p/kWh), or standard variable with electricity at 21.37p/kWh, gas 4.01p/kWh.

Presumably the standard variable will go up and down as wholesale prices fluctuate.
I'm in exactly the same situation.
As of today, I'm tempted to stick with the SVR. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer the stability of knowing what my monthly outgoings are, but there's a limit

The SVR will be the cap.   It is fixed until the end of Sep.   If wholesale prices drop, and they have to drop a lot, then suppliers may reduce their SVR.  So variable rates can go down but not up.

The next cap period starts 1st Oct, but the calculation window is only just starting.
As the person with the inside track, would you recommend going for the 12 months fixed or SVR?  I've got until April to choose though.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 01 March, 2022, 01:21:06 pm
My fixed price deal with Octopus comes to an end soon.
Options are 12M fixed, standing charges as before, big hike in unit rates for both gas and electricity or standard flexible (double for electricity to  36.46p /kWh, three times for gas at 9.68p/kWh), or standard variable with electricity at 21.37p/kWh, gas 4.01p/kWh.

Presumably the standard variable will go up and down as wholesale prices fluctuate.
I'm in exactly the same situation.
As of today, I'm tempted to stick with the SVR. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer the stability of knowing what my monthly outgoings are, but there's a limit

The SVR will be the cap.   It is fixed until the end of Sep.   If wholesale prices drop, and they have to drop a lot, then suppliers may reduce their SVR.  So variable rates can go down but not up.

The next cap period starts 1st Oct, but the calculation window is only just starting.
As the person with the inside track, would you recommend going for the 12 months fixed or SVR?  I've got until April to choose though.

I have a bit of an issue using the word 'recommend'.

Your costs have a natural cap until the end of Sep if you go with SVR so what you're really asking is how much could prices go up 1st Oct.    I would see how much higher the fix you are being offered is than the cap first.   You can then get a handle on how much the cap needs to go up 1st Oct for you to break even.

Current forecasts are for the cap to increase again 1st Oct but the unknown is what wholesale prices will do for the next few months as it is these assessments that will go into the new cap calculation.    I am not convinced that it will get that much worse than it is now but I have been known to be wrong.

Have you been offered a 2yr fix ?   Forward rates are much cheaper so it will take a lot of the immediate pain away.   Also check the exit fees as a percentage of your annual spend.   You can walk out of any deal part way through if prices come down significantly.

I managed to get a 3yr fix in Dec last year and, whilst I am currently paying more than the cap, I will be paying less from 1st April.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Tim Hall on 01 March, 2022, 10:40:15 pm
Thanks for the info. Yes "recommend" was a poor choice of word on my part - your caution is noted and understood.

Octopus are only offering a 12 month fix as far as I can tell. Their 12M fixed offer based on my useage is almost twice thier SVR offer. (£132 per month vs £74)  I've just found this statement on their website:
Quote
If your fixed term is coming to an end, don't choose a new tariff or switch supplier.

Instead, let your supplier automatically move you to their default tariff, so your prices are protected by the Government's Energy Price Cap.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 02 March, 2022, 08:18:32 am
In the industrial/business a sector a lot of people are coming to the end of contracts and looking at pretty hefty increases on their renewals.   There is no cap on business supply tariffs.   What energy brokers seem to be doing is marketing 3 yr year deals as it softens the immediate pain.   I'm not sure how long suppliers will continue to offer these as, whilst profitable, it causes cashflow issues for the first year of the contract as they are buying wholesale above where it has been sold.   Ofgem, in general, do not GAF about the business supply sector.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 02 March, 2022, 08:47:41 am
The increased energy (particularly gas) prices are hitting on the islands already.

A much-loved roadside food vendor will not be opening this year. Gas price increases (they rely on bottled gas) mean that the business is simply unprofitable.

 :(

They will be really missed. Their site is on the border between Harris and Lewis and made a very welcome food stop on the way back home from Harris.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 02 March, 2022, 08:01:40 pm
Trying not to stray too far into POBI….

At the moment Russia exports about $1bn a day of commodities.  There is not enough coal/oil/gas in the world to meet the shortfall in Europe if they turn the taps off.   Neither side can afford to play hardball so not really sure how this will go but it will get worse before it gets better.

Whilst the UK doesn’t import that much Russian gas, prices are intrinsically linked to Europe so we have seen big increases today as the risk increases.  We can import LNG from elsewhere into the 3 UK terminals but it trades at a premium at the moment.

On the supply side, Gazprom’s supply business has a 20% share of the business gas sector but also supplies services to a couple of independent suppliers.   It depends when the business customers entered into their contracts but there’s a strong chance that new rates will be higher.   Depends if these costs can be passed through or not.

My guidance (like that word) is changing a bit as I saw a forecast today that the price cap may increase by £600 pa in October.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 March, 2022, 09:27:34 pm
The increased energy (particularly gas) prices are hitting on the islands already.

A much-loved roadside food vendor will not be opening this year. Gas price increases (they rely on bottled gas) mean that the business is simply unprofitable.

 :(

They will be really missed. Their site is on the border between Harris and Lewis and made a very welcome food stop on the way back home from Harris.

Is that the pizza van?
If so I'd say they maybe made a mistake in picking gas instead of wood, but then well that's an import there too and I'm not sure "Peat Fired Pizzas" sounds so good

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 03 March, 2022, 09:29:05 am
The increased energy (particularly gas) prices are hitting on the islands already.

A much-loved roadside food vendor will not be opening this year. Gas price increases (they rely on bottled gas) mean that the business is simply unprofitable.

 :(

They will be really missed. Their site is on the border between Harris and Lewis and made a very welcome food stop on the way back home from Harris.

Is that the pizza van?
If so I'd say they maybe made a mistake in picking gas instead of wood, but then well that's an import there too and I'm not sure "Peat Fired Pizzas" sounds so good

No the Pizza van is not far from us.

It is the van called 'Taste n Sea', which did a really good line of seafood. On the border, great spot, view of Loch Seaforth.

I think firing a pizza oven with peat would be problematic!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 March, 2022, 08:42:40 pm
Ah yes, thats between Liùrbost and Calanais isnt it.

I was worried you meant the butty bus though.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 05 March, 2022, 10:01:32 am
Ah yes, thats between Liùrbost and Calanais isnt it.

I was worried you meant the butty bus though.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

The butty bus is a long way away, at leverburgh. (Oh, and the anchorage at leverburgh has closed; owners retired.)

Best 'van food' is, I think, from Lorna's Larder, which is still going strong. A little south of Tarbet.

Sam's seafood shack is very good, but only open weekdays in tourist season, so we don't get to visit that one.

Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 05 March, 2022, 07:40:35 pm
My fixed price deal with Octopus comes to an end soon.
Options are 12M fixed, standing charges as before, big hike in unit rates for both gas and electricity or standard flexible (double for electricity to  36.46p /kWh, three times for gas at 9.68p/kWh), or standard variable with electricity at 21.37p/kWh, gas 4.01p/kWh.

Presumably the standard variable will go up and down as wholesale prices fluctuate.
I'm in exactly the same situation.
As of today, I'm tempted to stick with the SVR. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer the stability of knowing what my monthly outgoings are, but there's a limit

The SVR will be the cap.   It is fixed until the end of Sep.   If wholesale prices drop, and they have to drop a lot, then suppliers may reduce their SVR.  So variable rates can go down but not up.

The next cap period starts 1st Oct, but the calculation window is only just starting.
As the person with the inside track, would you recommend going for the 12 months fixed or SVR?  I've got until April to choose though.

I have a bit of an issue using the word 'recommend'.

Your costs have a natural cap until the end of Sep if you go with SVR so what you're really asking is how much could prices go up 1st Oct.    I would see how much higher the fix you are being offered is than the cap first.   You can then get a handle on how much the cap needs to go up 1st Oct for you to break even.

Current forecasts are for the cap to increase again 1st Oct but the unknown is what wholesale prices will do for the next few months as it is these assessments that will go into the new cap calculation.    I am not convinced that it will get that much worse than it is now but I have been known to be wrong.

Have you been offered a 2yr fix ?   Forward rates are much cheaper so it will take a lot of the immediate pain away.   Also check the exit fees as a percentage of your annual spend.   You can walk out of any deal part way through if prices come down significantly.

I managed to get a 3yr fix in Dec last year and, whilst I am currently paying more than the cap, I will be paying less from 1st April.

Another Octopusser here. I currently pay £90/month, Flexible Octopus tariff. My options are to stay put (I assume that’s an option), or to switch to Octopus 12 month fixed (fixed unit rates and standing charges) for £246/month (FFS!!) or Loyal Octopus 12 month fixed, which rather oddly is identical in its fixed unit rates and charges, but is £200/month.

At this stage, should I just stay put?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 05 March, 2022, 07:43:43 pm
My fixed price deal with Octopus comes to an end soon.
Options are 12M fixed, standing charges as before, big hike in unit rates for both gas and electricity or standard flexible (double for electricity to  36.46p /kWh, three times for gas at 9.68p/kWh), or standard variable with electricity at 21.37p/kWh, gas 4.01p/kWh.

Presumably the standard variable will go up and down as wholesale prices fluctuate.
I'm in exactly the same situation.
As of today, I'm tempted to stick with the SVR. It's a gamble either way.
I prefer the stability of knowing what my monthly outgoings are, but there's a limit

The SVR will be the cap.   It is fixed until the end of Sep.   If wholesale prices drop, and they have to drop a lot, then suppliers may reduce their SVR.  So variable rates can go down but not up.

The next cap period starts 1st Oct, but the calculation window is only just starting.
As the person with the inside track, would you recommend going for the 12 months fixed or SVR?  I've got until April to choose though.

I have a bit of an issue using the word 'recommend'.

Your costs have a natural cap until the end of Sep if you go with SVR so what you're really asking is how much could prices go up 1st Oct.    I would see how much higher the fix you are being offered is than the cap first.   You can then get a handle on how much the cap needs to go up 1st Oct for you to break even.

Current forecasts are for the cap to increase again 1st Oct but the unknown is what wholesale prices will do for the next few months as it is these assessments that will go into the new cap calculation.    I am not convinced that it will get that much worse than it is now but I have been known to be wrong.

Have you been offered a 2yr fix ?   Forward rates are much cheaper so it will take a lot of the immediate pain away.   Also check the exit fees as a percentage of your annual spend.   You can walk out of any deal part way through if prices come down significantly.

I managed to get a 3yr fix in Dec last year and, whilst I am currently paying more than the cap, I will be paying less from 1st April.

Another Octopusser here. I currently pay £90/month, Flexible Octopus tariff. My options are to stay put (I assume that’s an option), or to switch to Octopus 12 month fixed (fixed unit rates and standing charges) for £246/month (FFS!!) or Loyal Octopus 12 month fixed, which rather oddly is identical in its fixed unit rates and charges, but is £200/month.

At this stage, should I just stay put?
My Octopus fixed rate ends on the 10th.
I'm going with the SVR - although I'm unsure that's the right thing.
Either way is a gamble.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 05 March, 2022, 07:45:57 pm
What is the SVR - my current Flexible?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Jaded on 05 March, 2022, 08:28:36 pm
I'm with Octopus. I didn't sign up for a fixed deal, because "Deal" meant double. Taking my chances with the variable rate, for now.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 05 March, 2022, 09:42:18 pm
What is the SVR - my current Flexible?

Standard Variable Rate.   It should be the same as the cap but the odd supplier has been giving different tariffs funky names so worth checking.

Industry is now expecting the cap to go up again 1 Oct.  Quite a lot.  No indication from the regulator/Government as to what they will do.  Is suspect they are busy with other things.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 05 March, 2022, 10:38:36 pm
What is the SVR - my current Flexible?

Standard Variable Rate.

Thanks, yes, I knew what it stood for but is Flexible Octopus an SVR tariff?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 06 March, 2022, 07:00:40 am
What is the SVR - my current Flexible?

Standard Variable Rate.

Thanks, yes, I knew what it stood for but is Flexible Octopus an SVR tariff?

https://octopus.energy/blog/why-we-are-increasing-energy-prices-for-some-customers/

Yes.  Interestingly priced a bit below the Ofgem cap.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 06 March, 2022, 07:28:57 am
Is that the pizza van?
If so I'd say they maybe made a mistake in picking gas instead of wood, but then well that's an import there too and I'm not sure "Peat Fired Pizzas" sounds so good
"Peatzas".  Just think outside the box.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 06 March, 2022, 08:34:18 am
What is the SVR - my current Flexible?

Standard Variable Rate.

Thanks, yes, I knew what it stood for but is Flexible Octopus an SVR tariff?

https://octopus.energy/blog/why-we-are-increasing-energy-prices-for-some-customers/

Yes.  Interestingly priced a bit below the Ofgem cap.
Thanks, I wasn't aware that octopus were undercutting the cap, which is a curious move.
I'm even more inclined to stick with that rate. If they offer a 2 or 3 year fix then I'm likely to jump on it. (On the Martin Lewis forum there's some evidence that they do have a three year fix that's being offered to some customers, but I'm unclear about how it's offered)
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 06 March, 2022, 02:45:19 pm
Thanks all. Although I had read their blog I had missed the page linked to above.

I think I’ll stick to Flexible Octopus. I think.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 March, 2022, 05:01:57 pm
Cripes, the standing charge for electricity on Flexible is a lot more than on my fix.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 06 March, 2022, 09:54:53 pm
I’m still a bit shocked by the whole thing. With my usual cost being £90/month, I was under the impression we would be looking at an increase to about £140/month or something. Assuming the “Loyal Octopus” at £200/month is only available to some customers that have been with them for a long time as we have, that means that those who haven’t been with them long are looking at (for our level of consumption), almost triple the cost.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 08 March, 2022, 12:07:25 am
I’m still a bit shocked by the whole thing. With my usual cost being £90/month, I was under the impression we would be looking at an increase to about £140/month or something. Assuming the “Loyal Octopus” at £200/month is only available to some customers that have been with them for a long time as we have, that means that those who haven’t been with them long are looking at (for our level of consumption), almost triple the cost.

We are on Octopus capped SVR (since AVRO bust Sept21) & also have the loyal Octopus Fixed option.

edit.  £205 pm Fixed offer Monday, today it's £247 pm!

"To fix or not to fix?"  https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1499690157884203012?s=20&t=brPp6K7bKDyn-xGSHgsGuQ


https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/uk-natural-gas
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Paul H on 08 March, 2022, 08:57:25 am
I’m still a bit shocked by the whole thing. With my usual cost being £90/month, I was under the impression we would be looking at an increase to about £140/month or something.
I don't understand it, likewise I'm being quoted triple what I was paying, from £27 a month and in credit, to over £70.  I can't do anything about it and it's an irritation rather than a real problem, but if it's correct, then for some that's going to be life changing.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: TimC on 08 March, 2022, 12:14:09 pm
I'm already paying £200 a month on Octopus, on a mid-2021 fix. This for a tiny 2-bed cottage (though it's electric-only, with no wet heating). I'm anticipating £600 a month or more when the time comes to face the reality of 2023 prices (fixed till May 2023). As the house is listed, I have been refused permission to install PV panels (even in the garden), double glazing, or any kind of visible enhancement to insulation.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 08 March, 2022, 12:24:51 pm
I'm already paying £200 a month on Octopus, on a mid-2021 fix. This for a tiny 2-bed cottage (though it's electric-only, with no wet heating). I'm anticipating £600 a month or more when the time comes to face the reality of 2023 prices (fixed till May 2023). As the house is listed, I have been refused permission to install PV panels (even in the garden), double glazing, or any kind of visible enhancement to insulation.
Blimey. That's not a sustainable position surely.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rafletcher on 08 March, 2022, 12:34:54 pm
I'm already paying £200 a month on Octopus, on a mid-2021 fix. This for a tiny 2-bed cottage (though it's electric-only, with no wet heating). I'm anticipating £600 a month or more when the time comes to face the reality of 2023 prices (fixed till May 2023). As the house is listed, I have been refused permission to install PV panels (even in the garden), double glazing, or any kind of visible enhancement to insulation.
Blimey. That's not a sustainable position surely.

And, should Tim C have neighbours, they'd probably also be refused permission for anything obvious as it would affect the setting of a listed building, even if their buildings aren't listed.  We get this in our village quote a lot.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 08 March, 2022, 12:55:45 pm
I'm not sure this should devolve to individual properties and their owners, that's a not scalable solution to current energy demands – we already have the capabilities and technologies for a carbon-negative energy solution at a national level – one we should have started implementing several years ago, but we're still talking about increasing our reliance on fossil fuels.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 March, 2022, 01:07:17 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: TimC on 08 March, 2022, 01:22:26 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill! I actually have enough non-thatched roof space to make a significant dent in it, so I live in hope that one day the local council will see sense!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 08 March, 2022, 01:28:34 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill!

There's always this:  https://rippleenergy.com/
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 March, 2022, 01:32:05 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill! I actually have enough non-thatched roof space to make a significant dent in it, so I live in hope that one day the local council will see sense!
Your house is an exceptional building though. I was replying to ian's point that this shouldn't be about individual properties and their owners. In terms of insulation, it has to be about buildings! Though not necessarily their owners.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 08 March, 2022, 01:39:55 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill!

There's always this:  https://rippleenergy.com/

Loath I am to dispute things with teh Kim, statements like

Quote
Your electricity is supplied to your home

Implying that power from that windfarm is supplied  to your house, make me want to run away very very fast.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: TimC on 08 March, 2022, 01:45:00 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill!

There's always this:  https://rippleenergy.com/

That's really interesting - thanks Kim!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 08 March, 2022, 01:49:04 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill! I actually have enough non-thatched roof space to make a significant dent in it, so I live in hope that one day the local council will see sense!
Your house is an exceptional building though. I was replying to ian's point that this shouldn't be about individual properties and their owners. In terms of insulation, it has to be about buildings! Though not necessarily their owners.

Some properties simply aren't amenable for insulation, no one is going to let you put double-glazing in a 12th-century castle and slap some solar panels on the roof. Government should be ensuring we don't build another substandardly insulated property (they aren't, of course). If it's doable, it's doable, but solving national energy issues shouldn't be down to individual homeowners.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 08 March, 2022, 01:55:11 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill!

There's always this:  https://rippleenergy.com/

Loath I am to dispute things with teh Kim, statements like

Quote
Your electricity is supplied to your home

Implying that power from that windfarm is supplied  to your house, make me want to run away very very fast.

Marketing, innit.  Obviously it's not the same electrons, and unlike sticking PV on your roof, you still have to pay for transmission and distribution.  But it means that your supplier buys electricity for you at the windfarm's costs, rather than the market rate, and you get to pocket the difference.

Why this isn't the case for all the usual 'green' electricity tariffs left as an exercise for the reader...
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 March, 2022, 02:07:15 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill! I actually have enough non-thatched roof space to make a significant dent in it, so I live in hope that one day the local council will see sense!
Your house is an exceptional building though. I was replying to ian's point that this shouldn't be about individual properties and their owners. In terms of insulation, it has to be about buildings! Though not necessarily their owners.

Some properties simply aren't amenable for insulation, no one is going to let you put double-glazing in a 12th-century castle and slap some solar panels on the roof. Government should be ensuring we don't build another substandardly insulated property (they aren't, of course). If it's doable, it's doable, but solving national energy issues shouldn't be down to individual homeowners.
Government can and should set standards for newbuilds but somehow the hundreds of thousands* of uninsulated buildings have to be dealt with. Which can't not come down to individual buildings, whether it's paid for by owners or governments.

*Maybe ten million. Apparently there are 24.7 million houses in the UK https://www.statista.com/statistics/232302/number-of-dwellings-in-england and there's no way the majority are adequately insulated. And that's before we get on non-domestic buildings.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fboab on 08 March, 2022, 02:51:39 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill!

There's always this:  https://rippleenergy.com/
I hoped that was going to be a link to a water turbine. Colour me disappointed.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 March, 2022, 03:00:33 pm
Some folks I know in USAnia used to live far, far away from the beaten track and got all their voles from a water turbine.  Obviously bank voles ba-dum TISH!  Then one of them invented this: https://paklitegear.com/home and sold gazillions of them to the military and mains anbarism soon followed.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 08 March, 2022, 03:44:42 pm

Why this isn't the case for all the usual 'green' electricity tariffs left as an exercise for the reader...


This comes up a lot.   There is only one wholesale power market, all traded at a notional balancing point and provided from a range of sources.   The rate is derived by all of the underlying marginal costs of production.   At the moment the clearing price is set by the gas price which is the marginal plant.   It only decouples on really windy days in the short term.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 March, 2022, 05:37:26 pm
Surely insulation inevitably comes down to individual properties.

It does, but the only realistic way of properly insulating my 'substantial wood framed' property is to install external insulation, removing the original render. That's a non-starter for several reasons. Although I'd love to see much more of our electricity come from renewable resources, from a personal PoV I'd just like to be able to generate some to offset the bill! I actually have enough non-thatched roof space to make a significant dent in it, so I live in hope that one day the local council will see sense!
Your house is an exceptional building though. I was replying to ian's point that this shouldn't be about individual properties and their owners. In terms of insulation, it has to be about buildings! Though not necessarily their owners.

Some properties simply aren't amenable for insulation, no one is going to let you put double-glazing in a 12th-century castle and slap some solar panels on the roof. Government should be ensuring we don't build another substandardly insulated property (they aren't, of course). If it's doable, it's doable, but solving national energy issues shouldn't be down to individual homeowners.
Government can and should set standards for newbuilds but somehow the hundreds of thousands* of uninsulated buildings have to be dealt with. Which can't not come down to individual buildings, whether it's paid for by owners or governments.

*Maybe ten million. Apparently there are 24.7 million houses in the UK https://www.statista.com/statistics/232302/number-of-dwellings-in-england and there's no way the majority are adequately insulated. And that's before we get on non-domestic buildings.

There was Labour legislation due to become law in 2016 that all new builds should be low carbon / carbon neutral.  The tories pulled it on the basis that their very concerned friends from the building industry claimed that it would add £7,500 to the cost of each property on average.  The replacement legislation is not due for another couple of years at least. 

Add this to the scaling back of renewables investment and incentives by government since 2010 and it is not difficult to see that if things had continued at pre tory pace then we would need to burn less gas to generate electricity, would therefore be less dependent upon imported gas and that we would have greater energy security.

Hey ho!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 March, 2022, 06:04:15 pm
Even if all new builds were up to passivehouse standard, there's still the problem of 24 million old houses.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 08 March, 2022, 06:13:27 pm
For some of those old houses, it may not be feasible to insulate them efficiently, there's no sense fretting at a small proportion of the housing stock; for others, there will be sensible and cost-effective insulation strategies where money might be better spent.

As an ordinary home-owner who doesn't appear to qualify for any grants, it seemed a bit impossiblolium to get anyone to give us a quote on solar panels/solar hot water on our roof (admittedly, it seemed more hassle than it was worth, so I let it slide, but that's the problem with relying on individuals).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 08 March, 2022, 06:18:50 pm

Why this isn't the case for all the usual 'green' electricity tariffs left as an exercise for the reader...


This comes up a lot.   There is only one wholesale power market, all traded at a notional balancing point and provided from a range of sources.   The rate is derived by all of the underlying marginal costs of production.   At the moment the clearing price is set by the gas price which is the marginal plant.   It only decouples on really windy days in the short term.

Yep, I suspect that we're stuck with it working that way until such a time that either  a) There isn't a wholesale electricity market   or  b) We don't need expensive fossil fuels to stabilise the grid.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 08 March, 2022, 06:19:56 pm
Even if all new builds were up to passivehouse standard, there's still the problem of 24 million old houses.

Climate change should take out a few of them...   :-\
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 09 March, 2022, 08:24:26 am
Even if all new builds were up to passivehouse standard, there's still the problem of 24 million old houses.

Climate change should take out a few of them...   :-\

Probably not.

Old houses have survived so far and are more sturdy (the non-sturdy ones have deteriorated).

A distressingly high proportion of newbuilds are on land that hasn't been previously built on, because it is marshy or very low lying. They will go first.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 09 March, 2022, 09:05:47 am
Do we have any coal plants still working?  I imagine they'll be fired up if, due to Vladolf's doings, gas becomes too scarce to be used for power generation.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 09 March, 2022, 09:19:02 am
Even if all new builds were up to passivehouse standard, there's still the problem of 24 million old houses.

Climate change should take out a few of them...   :-\

Probably not.

Old houses have survived so far and are more sturdy (the non-sturdy ones have deteriorated).

A distressingly high proportion of newbuilds are on land that hasn't been previously built on, because it is marshy or very low lying. They will go first.

From the newbuilds we saw on our last outing on the market, quickly sinking into marshy oblivion will be a mercy.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 09 March, 2022, 09:37:29 am
Do we have any coal plants still working?  I imagine they'll be fired up if, due to Vladolf's doings, gas becomes too scarce to be used for power generation.

The biggest one in europe, allegedly. Drax

Currently running mostly on (imported) biomass.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 09 March, 2022, 09:40:53 am
New builds on floodplains and all housing stock in low lying villages, towns and cities close to or even next to rivers, especially as they get closer to the sea.  Age is irrelevant when it is partially or fully submerged.

If you look at areas that have suffered bad flooding in the past 30 years you can fairly accurately see and predict where the future problems due to climate change are likely to occur.

When you move to your next home forget that lovely seafront villa or waterside apartment and go and find a hill with a house on top of it!
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 09 March, 2022, 10:01:34 am
Do we have any coal plants still working?  I imagine they'll be fired up if, due to Vladolf's doings, gas becomes too scarce to be used for power generation.

2 units at Drax still run on coal.   Eon still have Ratcliffe.

All running across the peak of the day with what looks like 1 Drax unit running overnight.

1.9GW of a total UK generation of 40GW across the Peak.

Rest are all decommissioned under emissions regs.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: hatler on 09 March, 2022, 11:11:53 am
Do we have any coal plants still working?  I imagine they'll be fired up if, due to Vladolf's doings, gas becomes too scarce to be used for power generation.
This shows we're currently (see what I did there) running 2.5% of the power supply from coal - https://grid.iamkate.com/
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 11 March, 2022, 09:45:33 am
Trying not to get into POBI.

Govt language moving to blaming cost of living increases (inc. energy) on Ukraine.   Wholesale prices are below where they were before Christmas.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 March, 2022, 10:29:04 am
/Nadine Dorries mode on

Can't we just build coal power stations with really big chimneys to pipe the CO2 into space?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: campagman on 22 March, 2022, 08:53:39 pm
I am a very low energy user. I am on a 12 month Ovo fix at £35 per month. This ends in May. I have been offered 3 plans to move to. A £45 / mth SVR which will go up in April and then again in Oct but may start coming down after that, I hear. A £92 / mth 2 yr fix or a £95 / mth 1 yr fix. I don't want to be tied into a 2 yr deal if the prices start coming down so am looking at the 1 yr deal. Does this make sense?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 22 March, 2022, 09:33:00 pm
Run out of room for more plants then?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60821657

Could do with some more pumped storage here though.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 March, 2022, 07:17:24 am
My gas & electric has gone from £65 to £98 a month, which isn't too bad.  It's mostly electricity, which is stupendously expensive given that I use very little of it.  Logs have gone up about 10%, but usually get cheaper in the summer.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 23 March, 2022, 09:02:51 am
Run out of room for more plants then?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60821657

Could do with some more pumped storage here though.
We really, really need more pumped storage.

As I see it, the medium term problem isn't generating electricity, it is storing it.

Very big hydro schemes are problematic, but pumped hydro storage isn't anywhere near as bad.

There are lots of companies jumping on the bandwagon, but very few stand up to scrutiny (yes, I'm looking at you, concrete-crane block stackers).
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 March, 2022, 10:52:44 am
Run out of room for more plants then?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60821657

Could do with some more pumped storage here though.
We really, really need more pumped storage.

As I see it, the medium term problem isn't generating electricity, it is storing it.

Very big hydro schemes are problematic, but pumped hydro storage isn't anywhere near as bad.

There are lots of companies jumping on the bandwagon, but very few stand up to scrutiny (yes, I'm looking at you, concrete-crane block stackers).

Lots of battery projects out there seeming to be getting financed.   I have looked at a pumped storage project in Wales a couple of times.   It has planning permission but a 2 year build time and a pretty big capital requirement so I think batteries represent a better and quicker return for funders.

I did see the weights-based storage solution but I also saw something with compressed air and old salt caverns.   I'm not sure I believe that anyone can re-invent the market but people still seem to be trying.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 March, 2022, 11:21:43 am
People have tried to use the old salt caverns for a variety of things over the years.  I've seen business plans advocating them as the ideal sites for things including document storage (very dry) and for gas (airtight).

A decade or more ago I worked on the sale of British Salt, which owned a lot of the caverns.  Shortly after I was cycling in Gran Canaria and got chatting to a guy who was a chartered surveyor in Cheshire.  He mentioned he was doing a lot of work due to subsidence because of salt caverns!  This issue conspicuously did not arise during the sale.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 23 March, 2022, 11:44:26 am
Run out of room for more plants then?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60821657

Could do with some more pumped storage here though.
We really, really need more pumped storage.

As I see it, the medium term problem isn't generating electricity, it is storing it.

Very big hydro schemes are problematic, but pumped hydro storage isn't anywhere near as bad.

There are lots of companies jumping on the bandwagon, but very few stand up to scrutiny (yes, I'm looking at you, concrete-crane block stackers).

Lots of battery projects out there seeming to be getting financed.   I have looked at a pumped storage project in Wales a couple of times.   It has planning permission but a 2 year build time and a pretty big capital requirement so I think batteries represent a better and quicker return for funders.

I did see the weights-based storage solution but I also saw something with compressed air and old salt caverns.   I'm not sure I believe that anyone can re-invent the market but people still seem to be trying.

The weights based think just doesn't stack up (sic). There is relatively little energy stored - they also have a problem with the stacking reducing the potential energy that can be recovered (as the 'down' stack gets higher, the 'storage' stack gets lower).

Some of the compressed air solutions look good. Not trying to invent radically new systems, but combine currently available technology in a way to increase efficiency. They will remain relatively small-scale though.

Vanadium batteries are promising; relatively cheap, but lower efficiency. That doesn't matter too much if you have an excess of power. They are being used for farm-scale installations in Australia.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 March, 2022, 12:09:34 pm
There's no subsidy scheme for batteries or storage so you need to rely on market forces.   If you look at where the market cleared for tomorrow, the lowest price over night is £177, it goes up to £251 in the morning pick up, drops to £174 across the middle of the day and then hits £308 in the evening.   This indicates you could cycle the battery twice in a day but, as usual, it's not as simple as that.

When importing you have to pay supplier costs of up to £50 which closes the spread up a lot.   Also efficiencies are something like 95% so you lose a bit more on the round trip.

Suppliers are offering 10 year warranties and guaranteed levels of degradation but no-one has had one in operation long enough to see if these are realistic.   There's a decent amount of interest from the investment community but it's a different model to renewables build.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 March, 2022, 06:57:08 pm
My gas & electric has gone from £65 to £98 a month, which isn't too bad.  It's mostly electricity, which is stupendously expensive given that I use very little of it.  Logs have gone up about 10%, but usually get cheaper in the summer.

Ours has gone from £89 to £155, flexible. The fixed tariffs are now £220-230. I’ll stay put.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: FifeingEejit on 23 March, 2022, 07:55:32 pm
Cruachan is 440MW
Cruachan 2 will be 600MW
But they'll both run off the same head of power
Which can hold 8.8Gwh

Foyers is 300Mw from 6.5Gwh of storage

I've found info about 2 planned Battery storage schemes one atKincardine (Longannet) one at Hunterston (Hunterston B), both will have a capacity of a whopping 400MWh, no mention of peak delivery.

No mention of when Drax expect Cruachan 2 to come on line (Seems to be at planning stage), but the 2 battery systems were approved around the same time Drax submitted their proposal for planning and reckon 2024 on-line.

No mention of how much space the batteries take up, but I'd suspect there's more capacity available from hollowing out mountains than plonking batteries everywhere.


Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 23 March, 2022, 08:04:52 pm
Batteries have the advantage that they can react instantaneously to grid conditions, where hydro takes seconds, so it's useful to have some battery storage.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 23 March, 2022, 09:27:22 pm
Dinorwig can go from 0 to 500MW in 8 seconds.

Batteries have been used for balancing contracts such as fast frequency and dynamic containment for a while, but Grid are changing the rules soon to shorter term procurement, so they will be harder to finance.   Co location with solar seems to be becoming popular as you can share the grid costs.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 24 March, 2022, 08:19:12 am
Batteries have the advantage that they can react instantaneously to grid conditions, where hydro takes seconds, so it's useful to have some battery storage.

I'd imagine that having some flywheel storage at the hydro plant could smooth out that reaction time.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 24 March, 2022, 12:19:14 pm



I've found info about 2 planned Battery storage schemes one atKincardine (Longannet) one at Hunterston (Hunterston B), both will have a capacity of a whopping 400MWh, no mention of peak delivery..
/snip/
No mention of how much space the batteries take up, but I'd suspect there's more capacity available from hollowing out mountains than plonking batteries everywhere.

There's a 50MW battery storage unit being built on prime farmland not far from me.
I can't find the exact area it covers, but there's a LOT of earthworks and it's being under construction for quite a long time.
Google Enderby Battery Storage if you're interested.
I suspect there are quite a few of these smaller developments around the country, almost under the radar.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 24 March, 2022, 12:21:55 pm
Batteries have the advantage that they can react instantaneously to grid conditions, where hydro takes seconds, so it's useful to have some battery storage.

I'd imagine that having some flywheel storage at the hydro plant could smooth out that reaction time.

Batteries sound more convenient than flywheels.  Especially if they can be used to black start things.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 March, 2022, 05:22:46 pm
DRUPS in data centres can be a PITA.  In theory they save on the cost and environmental impact* of replacing tons of lead-acid batteries every 10 years, but the bearings go instead and you have to take a UPS offline to replace them.

*not too bad, as they are 99% recycled
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 02 April, 2022, 11:00:44 pm
National grid currently on 67% fossil fuel...  https://grid.iamkate.com/

edit.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Ripio on 11 May, 2022, 11:50:29 pm
Is anyone else who was with People's Energy and moved to BG getting bizarre billing statements and payment requests from BG that seem to bear little resemblance to what they should be?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: robgul on 12 May, 2022, 07:42:08 am
Is anyone else who was with People's Energy and moved to BG getting bizarre billing statements and payment requests from BG that seem to bear little resemblance to what they should be?

My experience with BG is for random and confusing billing over the past 20 years BUT if you fathom out what they are asking/getting it's correct to the tariff I'm on.   

We changed at our new house from AVRO to BG in Feb and Mar 21 - it took a while to get the BG billing sorted.  BG installed Smart Meters in Julv21 and that seemed to confuse them too - stopping the account at the old readings and resatrting at zero.

Our billing is "pay for consumption" not DD and supposed to be billed monthly - it seems that they bill quartery (just like the good old days!) - from a cash perspective we're fortunate that the seasonal variations aren't an issue - the upside is that we aren't at risk of running up big DD credits with them.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Polar Bear on 12 May, 2022, 10:09:26 am
Is anyone else who was with People's Energy and moved to BG getting bizarre billing statements and payment requests from BG that seem to bear little resemblance to what they should be?

Yes, we have.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: ian on 12 May, 2022, 10:34:49 am
I think that's BG's normal billing process. Welcome. Every fourth bill comes by SMS, the other randomly by email or post. The app, of course, seems perpetually in submit-a-reading mode, even though we've had a smart meter for probably two or more years. It's the usual mishmash of systems behind the scenes I suppose. I have detailed my battle with EDF at a previous property (the book is with my agent), trying to get them to stop sending bills to the 'Meter Attached the Wall...' which the postman would diligently deliver for the wind to undeliver. That was never resolved in seven years. Probably isn't now. Mind you, someone there told me they use SAP for all this, which explains a lot.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 12 May, 2022, 11:15:54 am
I think that's BG's normal billing process. Welcome. Every fourth bill comes by SMS, the other randomly by email or post. The app, of course, seems perpetually in submit-a-reading mode, even though we've had a smart meter for probably two or more years. It's the usual mishmash of systems behind the scenes I suppose. I have detailed my battle with EDF at a previous property (the book is with my agent), trying to get them to stop sending bills to the 'Meter Attached the Wall...' which the postman would diligently deliver for the wind to undeliver. That was never resolved in seven years. Probably isn't now. Mind you, someone there told me they use SAP for all this, which explains a lot.

BGs problems stemmed from a list of acquisitions they made leaving them with 2 billing systems.   They tried and failed to amalgamate everything and migrate to SAP, hiring Accenture to manage the process.   At one point they were suing each other  for failing to deliver and the project costs were eye watering.

They did a deal with Ensek to migrate onto their 'end-to-end' platform but I'm not sure if that's complete or not.   It is by far the biggest deal Ensek have ever done.

Slightly OT but Octopus's in-house system - Kraken - is now rated so highly that Eon have bought it.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 12 May, 2022, 02:00:44 pm
...
Slightly OT but Octopus's in-house system - Kraken - is now rated so highly that Eon have bought it.

Not sure if this is the engine behind the Octopus website, but I continue to be impressed with the info / functionality (compared to opaque AVRO/ SSE - a few yrs ago).  e.g. As soon as one submits meter readings, the new account credit or debit status is immediately updated.  Just submitted new readings after 12 days, and credit reduced by ~£20.  ~£170 DD to go out in a few days.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 12 May, 2022, 02:07:55 pm
...
Slightly OT but Octopus's in-house system - Kraken - is now rated so highly that Eon have bought it.

Not sure if this is the engine behind the Octopus website, but I continue to be impressed with the info / functionality (compared to opaque AVRO/ SSE - a few yrs ago).  e.g. As soon as one submits meter readings, the new account credit or debit status is immediately updated.  Just submitted new readings after 12 days, and credit reduced by ~£20.  ~£170 DD to go out in a few days.

Yes, the web portal writes to the internal systems.   I was a customer for a while and quite impressed.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Kim on 12 May, 2022, 02:08:51 pm
...
Slightly OT but Octopus's in-house system - Kraken - is now rated so highly that Eon have bought it.

Not sure if this is the engine behind the Octopus website, but I continue to be impressed with the info / functionality (compared to opaque AVRO/ SSE - a few yrs ago).  e.g. As soon as one submits meter readings, the new account credit or debit status is immediately updated.  Just submitted new readings after 12 days, and credit reduced by ~£20.  ~£170 DD to go out in a few days.

Also impressed that they provide a REST API for us mortals to do clever things with: https://developer.octopus.energy/docs/api/
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: andyoxon on 25 May, 2022, 11:52:30 am
After the first hiked DD of ~£170, we were ~£175 in credit.  Octopus have easy balance adjustment web page which is pretty good.  Can withdraw funds so as to leave 'recommended amount' in account based on time of yr / consumption.  I left recommended £75 in, and withdrew the £100 back to bk acct.  Can withdraw more of balance by email if needed.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 27 May, 2022, 01:16:40 pm
I want to change to Octopus from Shell.  How/when can I do this without it costing teh erth?  When they say that you get moved to a cap rate, if we move now will the octopus bill be the same as the one I am on now come the next price increase?
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 May, 2022, 01:46:56 pm
I want to change to Octopus from Shell.  How/when can I do this without it costing teh erth?  When they say that you get moved to a cap rate, if we move now will the octopus bill be the same as the one I am on now come the next price increase?

Financial first.   Are you on a variable rate with Octopus ?   If so it will be more expensive to move to Shell as Octopus are pricing their SVR below the cap - only a bit but every little helps.   When the cap goes up in Oct both companies should be pricing the same but if Octopus continue with their current policy they will remain a bit cheaper.   If you are about to roll off a fixed rate with Octopus it will be cheaper to stay than to move.

Other reasons.  Shell are a dirty oil company with questionable ethics.   Octopus are a vertically integrated renewable supplier.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 27 May, 2022, 03:01:07 pm
I /think/ the slightly below cap prices that octopus charge are only for those that were customers before a certain cut off date. So, new customers pay the capped rate as far as I remember.
So - swapping from Shell to Octopus will be cost neutral.

Most Octopus customers have a referral code that will give both sides a bit of a bung (£50 to you, £50 to the referrer. To use mine go to https://share.octopus.energy/wise-zebra-118
Other YACFers will also have codes if you ask.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 May, 2022, 08:27:27 pm
Felstedrider I think he wants to go TO Octopus,  not the other way.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: felstedrider on 27 May, 2022, 09:36:03 pm
Felstedrider I think he wants to go TO Octopus,  not the other way.

Apologies.  As I tell my teenager, always read the question fully.  As you were.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 28 May, 2022, 12:50:35 am
Aye, RTFullQ.  As I said Octopus have quoted £700 more than Shell (I was with a smaller Green tariff company who went best).  If swapping in September means that we will be on the same price whether with Shell or Octopus, then that's a goer - but if we save with Shell we can spend that on insulating the house and switch at a later date.
Title: Re: Peoples Energy: any experiences and/or knowledge of this supplier please?
Post by: fd3 on 01 June, 2022, 05:59:03 pm
With shell upping their monthly dd octopus is cost neutral or a saving, and 12 months fixed.  It’s coop energy by octopus, couldn’t sign up online to octopus as they insisted I ring them.
While I was at it I put our name down for ripple energy.