wild camping to be made illegal in the UK

[sojournermike]

Shall we just say that vandals did that and not denigrate the entire traveller community by association?

And even that existing laws that criminalise trespass with associated (criminal) damage are already there to deal with that sort of behaviour.

[Pingu]

Now we know what Bloody Stupid Johnson means by one nation.

[Jaded]

England. With some Wales if they aren’t difficult.

[FifeingEejit]

I think quite a lot of that is right.

Try telling the average campervan NC500er that.

The Road Traffic Act applies to anything that looks or smells like a road (unless provided for the sole access to a property) in Scotland regardless of ownership.
It also applies to any land within something like 200m of a road, but it's also illegal to drive on a non-road without the landowners permission.
The concept of Trespass in Scotland requires access to be explicitly prohibited, so driving on a road that is not on the councils adoption list is normally legit.

The Land access reform that's commonly known as "Right to Roam" applies to any land that is not a road, is not set out for the purposes of sport (MTB trails, Ski Pistes etc), is not enclosed for a specific purpose (e.g. sports grounds), hasn't got a temporary exclusion notice posted and is not "Curtilage" (which is basically a reasonable area around a property where privacy is to be expected).
It applies a right to responsible access to land for almost all non-motorized activities.

[Jaded]

Does the average person know/understand the nuances?

[FifeingEejit]

Does the average person know/understand the nuances?

Dinnae be daft, the change in legislation hardly changed peoples behaviour from before... but then the whole point of it was to start from what we did anyway and liberalise further.

[Bolt]

I like this from bearbones https://bearbonesbikepacking.blogspot.com/2015/04/food-for-thought-just-resting-my-eyes.html

[Jaded]

(From what I have seen) The average motorised person considers the legislation to apply to their rights. They don’t not park somewhere and walk 200m with a tent and shit. They just pull in and stay and shit.

[Rowan]

Looks like a nasty piece of anti traveller legislation, but which of the proposed amendments do people fear will stop them camping overnight?

*amending section 62A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to permit the police to direct trespassers to suitable authorised sites located in neighbouring local authority areas
*amending sections 61 and 62A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to increase the period of time in which trespassers directed from land would be unable to return from 3 months to 12 months
*amending section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to lower the number of vehicles needing to be involved in an unauthorised encampment before police powers can be exercised from six to two or more vehicles
*amending section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to enable the police to remove trespassers from land that forms part of the highway

I've always thought the point of stealth camping* was that you weren't seen by anyone who might object and that you'd move on if asked, that's the way I've been doing it.  In about 200 nights over twenty years, the only time I've been approached by a landowner I was already packing up and although I was expecting some grief he was more interested in selling me some eggs (Which I bought even though I didn't really want them)

* I don't like to call it wild camping unless it really is.

If that is what the proposal are then it sounds good to me, something needs to change.

As a hill walker I too have been an avid wild camper for decades, I doubt very few people have ever seen me as it is always very remote, mostly up in the tops and little longer than dusk till dawn, I leave as small a footprint as possible. 

[FifeingEejit]

(From what I have seen) The average motorised person considers the legislation to apply to their rights. They don’t not park somewhere and walk 200m with a tent and shit. They just pull in and stay and shit.

yes, before the legislation came in people parked half on the road, half on the loch side along the A85 at Loch Earn anyway.
They still do it...

[Jaded]

They do it in far greater numbers now.

[tom_e]

Looks like a nasty piece of anti traveller legislation, but which of the proposed amendments do people fear will stop them camping overnight?

*amending section 62A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to permit the police to direct trespassers to suitable authorised sites located in neighbouring local authority areas
*amending sections 61 and 62A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to increase the period of time in which trespassers directed from land would be unable to return from 3 months to 12 months
*amending section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to lower the number of vehicles needing to be involved in an unauthorised encampment before police powers can be exercised from six to two or more vehicles
*amending section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to enable the police to remove trespassers from land that forms part of the highway

We would like to consult on measures to criminalise the act of trespassing when setting up an unauthorised encampment in England and Wales.

We would also like to consult on what an alternative approach to this could be:  ...
[amendments listed]

The four amendments are the milder alternative, not the main proposal.

[rogerzilla]

By voting for the Tories, the proles have unwittingly enabled them to roll back hundreds of years of history.  The serfs will soon be tugging their forelocks to their betters again.

[Cudzoziemiec]

It might be worth pointing out that not everyone who lives in a vehicle or a tent is a traveller. There are certain streets in Bristol, and I'm sure it's the same in every big city and some not so big ones, with inhabited camper vans, converted buses and so on permanently (or would be permanently if they didn't occasionally get moved on) parked on them. I haven't heard reports of crime and destruction associated with these but it still causes problems, most obviously with rubbish and drains. But the point is that the people living in them aren't Gypsies, New Age travellers or even moving their vehicles, they're people who'd like to live in a house but can't afford to. The same, more dramatically, with all the tents in the corners of parks.

[Wowbagger]

There are lots of narrowboats moored along the canals of London, occupied by people who cannot afford a house.

The late Jo Cox lived on a narrowboat in the Hackney area and she cycled to parliament every day.

[Arminius]

Does anyone know what this would mean for long term protest sites, or other protests? E.g. the peace camp next to the nuclear subs in Helensburgh, or XR occupying parts of London? I haven't read all of the consultation yet (have you?), but I got the impression that even being on the public road would fall under this change.

[Polar Bear]

It potentially means that all protesters on 'private' land become criminals. 

By voting for the Tories, the proles have unwittingly enabled them to roll back hundreds of years of history.  The serfs will soon be tugging their forelocks to their betters again.

The people will have an awful long time to regret their fit of pique.

I expect the c21 equivalent of the Enabling Act of 1933 to raise it's ugly head before too long.

[quixoticgeek]

Does anyone know what this would mean for long term protest sites, or other protests? E.g. the peace camp next to the nuclear subs in Helensburgh, or XR occupying parts of London? I haven't read all of the consultation yet (have you?), but I got the impression that even being on the public road would fall under this change.

In general UK law is not retroactive, so as the protest started before any new law comes into effect, this would be allowed to continue. See the fun uk.gov had trying to get Brian Haw to stop...

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

There are lots of narrowboats moored along the canals of London, occupied by people who cannot afford a house.

I forgot about those. Inexcusably, as there are lots of boat-dwellers in Bristol docks. However, does it count as camping? Or trespass?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Does anyone know what this would mean for long term protest sites, or other protests? E.g. the peace camp next to the nuclear subs in Helensburgh, or XR occupying parts of London? I haven't read all of the consultation yet (have you?), but I got the impression that even being on the public road would fall under this change.

Perhaps this is the real interest of the legislation?

[Kim]

There are lots of narrowboats moored along the canals of London, occupied by people who cannot afford a house.

Also people who can't cope with a house.  SIL has previously lived in vehicles, boats, caves, etc, although is now sleeping on the streets, in spite of having a house provided by social services.  The police generally appreciate that she's mentally ill, but the last thing people like her need is to be more illegal.

[MikeFromLFE]

There are lots of narrowboats moored along the canals of London, occupied by people who cannot afford a house.

I forgot about those. Inexcusably, as there are lots of boat-dwellers in Bristol docks. However, does it count as camping? Or trespass?

The canal boat dwellers live in boats licenced by The Canal and River Trust mostly on approved moorings, so there isn't an issue there.
CRT have, in recent years, taken a very hard, and in some quarters controversial, line with unlicensed boats, and also with unapproved moorings particularly in London. It's a whole different can of worms.

[bludger]

One of my mates lives on a boat. She has to move it fortnightly to comply with the rules.

This can lead to interesting situations where you come back from somewhere and realise you forgot where you parked it, and you have to ride up and down the towpath with a headtorch on looking for your own home.

[Cudzoziemiec]

It's as if the Bristol Post reads YACF!
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/local-news/river-avon-boaters-told-leave-3762887
Live-aboard boaters being moved on from official moorings due to riverbank collapse.

Laura Darling told cabinet members she was evicted from Saltford marina after she fell pregnant and Moor Lane is one of the few safe and accessible areas for her and five-year-old son.

“People will have to tie their boats to random trees if the moorings are taken away, with no access to hospitals,” she said. “The most vulnerable would suffer.”

Alice Young, a live-aboard boater who runs the boater outreach service for Julian House, said Mead Lane is a vital lifeline, adding: “I’m genuinely concerned from a professional stance where these people will go.

“People are going to put themselves at risk tying to trees in unsuitable river conditions.

“It would inflame the tensions that already exist. It would cost the council a huge amount of money. We already have ridiculous waiting lists for housing.”

But Mead Lane homeowner Peter Denmead said allowing mooring on the fragile riverbank was reckless, and claimed there are plenty of other sites along the Kennet and Avon canal.

“We urge members to take urgent action to avoid this serious environmental risk,” he added.

Julian House is a local charity for homeless people.

[Davef]

The title seems a little misleading. Trespass is a criminal offence in Scotland but rights to roam and wild camp are more generous than in the rest of the U.K. where trespass is mainly a civil matter.

Reducing the number of vehicles from 6 to 2 in the definition of an encampment will not affect my audaxing or other wild camping. In fact in Scotland where wild camping is allowed it is part of the rights to roam which excludes vehicles.


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