Author Topic: Is it the end of cash?  (Read 9765 times)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #50 on: 08 August, 2020, 12:28:32 pm »
Meanwhile they're confusing deaf people by deviating from the script and/or chatting to a colleague without eye contact...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #51 on: 08 August, 2020, 12:55:43 pm »
The downside is the fact that Google/Apple probably know what you've bought and from whom.

Not automatically.

They get a transaction ID, but they have to make an effort to match that up to a retailer - it isn’t always obvious.

I don’t think they have any way of knowing exactly what you have bought.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #52 on: 08 August, 2020, 12:58:26 pm »
Deaf friends claim there's a law saying the till amount has to be displayed visually on the till but I can't find such legislation when I Google. I know Deaf people who used to routinely challenge it if there was no display. Is there such legislation saying the amount has to be verbalised?

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #53 on: 08 August, 2020, 02:04:39 pm »
I really can’t remember when last a shop person taking money didn’t tell me the total before I paid, as well as it being displayed one way or another.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #54 on: 08 August, 2020, 03:30:17 pm »
Not being funny but perhaps you cannot remember because you have no need to remenber?

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #55 on: 08 August, 2020, 03:59:20 pm »

Not automatically.

They get a transaction ID, but they have to make an effort to match that up to a retailer - it isn’t always obvious.

I don’t think they have any way of knowing exactly what you have bought.

For card payments there will be an acquirer who manages the transactions on behalf of a merchant.  Transactions are often not settled till overnight though some are near real time now. The transactions details will also include a MID, which is a unique identifier for a merchant. If the merchant is a single shop then the MID essentially will allow you to know where the purchase was. For multiple chains not the case.  Whether Apple or Google act as an acquirer in this case I don’t know. It wouldn’t surprise me in their pursuit of ever larger profits.

As for what you bought that’s nothing to do with the payment side of transaction outside of reconciliation within the merchants internal stock control, financial, and payment systems. Before bar codes and scanning systems the merchants Weren’t even aware of that. A product would just be rung up as a price and possibly against a department for bigger shops.

For contactless as with chip / pin not every transaction involves contacting the card issuers online systems for authorisation.  Often the chip on the card will issue an authorisation code for the transaction. That will be recognised by the issuers systems when the acquirer settles the transaction. Settling a transaction means asking the card issuing bank / financial institution for the money to be transferred into the merchants account etc. There’s a bit more going on but you get the idea.

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
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Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #56 on: 10 August, 2020, 04:04:52 pm »
...The other thing I keep cash for is tipping. If I add a tip to a card payment how do I know that it all goes to the staff? If I’ve received exceptional service from someone I want that person to benefit from the tip.

A local café is using something called TipJar: https://www.thecoffeeapothecary.co.uk/blog/tips-are-changing/

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #57 on: 10 August, 2020, 05:06:25 pm »
The transactions details will also include a MID, which is a unique identifier for a merchant. If the merchant is a single shop then the MID essentially will allow you to know where the purchase was. For multiple chains not the case.

They can (and do) work it out using the location information provided by your phone...
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #58 on: 10 August, 2020, 06:40:18 pm »
...The other thing I keep cash for is tipping. If I add a tip to a card payment how do I know that it all goes to the staff? If I’ve received exceptional service from someone I want that person to benefit from the tip.

A local café is using something called TipJar: https://www.thecoffeeapothecary.co.uk/blog/tips-are-changing/

Very nice, but who pays for this website/app? Is a service fee deducted from each tip?

Mrs Pingu

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Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #59 on: 10 August, 2020, 08:50:13 pm »
Question for the folks au fait with Google Pay. Can you add a pre payment card (I'm thinking Pure, which I use cos I get money back) to it?

I tried adding it and it didn't work, so I assume it's a no.

I use a Revolute card with Google Pay on my phone and that works fine.

Tried it 3 times. It doesn't work.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #60 on: 17 August, 2020, 10:23:35 am »
Whether Apple or Google act as an acquirer in this case I don’t know. It wouldn’t surprise me in their pursuit of ever larger profits.
Apple and Google aren't the acquirer - they are on the customer side of the fence supplying card details. The acquirer is on the merchant side of the fence - they usually provide the PIN entry device and the POS supplier will have to make the POS software interact with that provided by the acquirer. MID identifies the merchant to the acquirer, the TID (often included in the transaction metadata) identifies the terminal, so not only can they know which shop you were in, but they know which PED you used. The MID is what is used to provide the name of the retailer on your credit card bill, but they won't know what you bought, only the details as to the payment.
In terms of the merchant knowing what you buy, nothing beats a loyalty card.

The acquirers keep changing their minds as to how they deal with offline transactions - I think the current state of affairs for most is that you can do chip and pin offline, but you have to be online to do contactless.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #61 on: 31 August, 2020, 08:36:00 am »
My son and his friends went for a kebab yesterday. Turns out Grecian kebab only take cash... which meant his mate had to pay for his kebab.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #62 on: 31 August, 2020, 08:40:13 am »
So according to some, Grecian Kebab is a tax evader.  I'm sure it's true because it's a typical dog whistle of the angry right ...

Never had a kebab myself.  Can you get vegetarian ones?

Ben T

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #63 on: 31 August, 2020, 09:16:20 am »
I went to the barbers the other day, they have lots of covid safe measures like customers wearing masks, them wearing visors, no walk ins, but then when I came to pay they only take cash. What's that about then? They even then sent an email to ask for a review. I put "great haircut - but contactless payment would have been nice, although you'd have to pay tax then I suppose"

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #64 on: 31 August, 2020, 10:40:42 am »
I went to the barbers the other day, they have lots of covid safe measures like customers wearing masks, them wearing visors, no walk ins, but then when I came to pay they only take cash. What's that about then? They even then sent an email to ask for a review. I put "great haircut - but contactless payment would have been nice, although you'd have to pay tax then I suppose"

Since most barbers and hairdressers are sole traders renting a chair, it may just be a simpler way for the salon owner of dividing the takings at the end of the day. But probably not. 
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #65 on: 31 August, 2020, 11:21:32 am »
Never had a kebab myself.  Can you get vegetarian ones?
Yes, but not from Grecian.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #66 on: 31 August, 2020, 02:03:35 pm »
I went to the barbers the other day, they have lots of covid safe measures like customers wearing masks, them wearing visors, no walk ins, but then when I came to pay they only take cash. What's that about then? They even then sent an email to ask for a review. I put "great haircut - but contactless payment would have been nice, although you'd have to pay tax then I suppose"

Since most barbers and hairdressers are sole traders renting a chair, it may just be a simpler way for the salon owner of dividing the takings at the end of the day. But probably not.
Around here the barbers and hairdressers plug a device into their smartphone that lets them swipe your credit card themselves and put the money in their account, including the tip. Not quite contactless, but it’s pretty easy to sanitize the phone between customers.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #67 on: 02 November, 2020, 12:12:54 pm »
I used an ATM today for the first time in months. Possibly even since March. The reason for this was that I'd decided to have a pre-emptive haircut (as had everyone else of course). When I got to pay, I found they now take cards!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

robgul

  • Cycle:End-to-End webmaster
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Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #68 on: 02 November, 2020, 02:25:18 pm »
I spent some coin cash yesterday - which I think is the first time since the end of March* . . . . 20p in the public toilet in Stow-on-the-Wold.

* I have been paying one of our neighbours in cash notes when he delivers the beer order from the neighbourhood "direct from the local micro-brewery" purchasing consortium every Friday

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #69 on: 02 November, 2020, 02:44:13 pm »

I had to go to a Doctors surgery to pick up a prescription for a friend. They accepted cash only, and right money too please. That was a pain in the arse. First time I've needed cash in months...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #70 on: 02 November, 2020, 02:56:11 pm »
So according to some, Grecian Kebab is a tax evader.

Missing the point somewhat.

Taking cash makes it much easier to evade tax by not declaring income/turnover. It's as simple as putting some of the cash in your pocket rather than through the till.

Taking card payments means you generally have to employ an accountant to find more convoluted ways of evading tax as there's an audit trail for all of the income/turnover. This is where business ownersdo things like buying furniture/TVs/etc for their business but they end up in their own home.

I've had various chats with London cabbies over the years. Some of them are quite open about why they prefer to take cash, of the ones that did talk candidly to me the general consensus is that they put about 1/2 to 2/3 of their fares through the books (any less and it looks dodgy compared to the mileage/fuel they are claiming). The rest goes straight into their pocket as undeclared income (with no corporation tax or income tax to pay). It's got to the point that it is so rife there's no way it can really be tackled. (Obviously there will be some taxi drivers that do put everything through the books, they're not all crooks). (It's not limited to London taxi drivers, private hire drivers could do exactly the same thing.)

It's why the London Taxi Drivers Network (or whatever it is) are so against card payments (and why the card machine, if present, is so often "temporarily out of order") or smart Taximeters that track journeys, print receipts and (most importantly) are auditable. The usual deflection tactic is to point to Uber (the corporation) and say that they don't pay enough/any corporation tax - conveniently ignoring the fact that the individual Uber drivers can't easily avoid paying tax as they don't receive cash for fares and everything they earn is easily auditable.

It's not just cab drivers either. How many people have a cleaner and pay them in cash? Do you think all of that is being declared? Do you think waiting staff declare every single penny of their cash tips as they should? etc.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #71 on: 02 November, 2020, 03:02:05 pm »
It's not just cab drivers either. How many people have a cleaner and pay them in cash? Do you think all of that is being declared? Do you think waiting staff declare every single penny of their cash tips as they should? etc.

Last time we had a cleaner (when we both worked close to full time) we did pay them in cash, so I'm far from squeaky clean myself.

But when we had our garden redone recently (~£5k) we made sure we used a firm that was invoicing us properly, including VAT, and only accepting payments to a business bank account.

It's not just the tradesperson that evades paying VAT by accepting cash, the purchaser is often complicit in it too.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #72 on: 02 November, 2020, 03:22:34 pm »
Are tradespeople, taxi drivers and waiters who neglect to declare their cash income any different than the very wealthy who employ a long list of dodgy stratagems to reduce their tax liability? Personally I'm a good bit more offended by Donald Trump only paying US$750 in US income tax for a few years than I am by some waiter or taxi driver pocketing a few dollars in cash income. I'm pretty sure the UK has a few examples of similar behavior by the rich and powerful.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #73 on: 02 November, 2020, 03:23:45 pm »
Are tradespeople, taxi drivers and waiters who neglect to declare their cash income any different than the very wealthy who employ a long list of dodgy stratagems to reduce their tax liability? Personally I'm a good bit more offended by Donald Trump only paying US$750 in US income tax for a few years than I am by some waiter or taxi driver pocketing a few dollars in cash income. I'm pretty sure the UK has a few examples of similar behavior by the rich and powerful.

Sure, but that's just whataboutery and avoids/deflects from the original point about cash.

The cab drivers I spoke to speak about pocketing sums of ~£20k/year. It's not just a bit of change.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #74 on: 02 November, 2020, 03:37:32 pm »
Are tradespeople, taxi drivers and waiters who neglect to declare their cash income any different than the very wealthy who employ a long list of dodgy stratagems to reduce their tax liability? Personally I'm a good bit more offended by Donald Trump only paying US$750 in US income tax for a few years than I am by some waiter or taxi driver pocketing a few dollars in cash income. I'm pretty sure the UK has a few examples of similar behavior by the rich and powerful.

Certainly, but it's the same sort of morality involved. It ought to be evident in the middle of a pandemic how much we're dependent on government that's funded from taxation.
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets