Camping with a Camper Longflap

[Cudzoziemiec]

I was planning an overnight trip last Friday and as I have a Carradice Camper Longflap saddlebag, I thought I might as well use and take the "fast" bike rather than the pannier-rack bike. I knew I'd have to put some items elsewhere, so the sleeping mat would go on the bars as the most suitably shaped and sized object. The tent itself would be strapped to the top of the saddlebag. Then it's just a question of putting everything else in the capacious interior and large side pockets. Easy.

Except it wasn't. By compressing my sleeping bag as much as I could, I got it down to about 30cm long by 18cm diameter. That fits in the bag, but I had to rearrange the straps that go round the dowel to put the buckles on the outside rather than the inside, so they wouldn't catch on the sleeping bag. Then there was just room next to it for a cooking pot, as long as I only took the small pot, which is fine because I usually only take that one. Mug and tea bags inside the pot, stove and fuel in one pocket, waterproof jacket in the other pocket. Bowl on top of cooking pot, starting off a second layer, with one or two small clothing items and then a warm jacket. By now I needed the longflap with its second straps. But that left no room for food, nowhere to put tools and I'd be restricted to what water I could carry on the bike – not a problem on a campsite but might be a problem when wild camping. Of course there are always solutions, like eating at a pub... but that kind of defeats some of the point.

Having now watched a video on how to maximally compress a sleeping bag into its stuff sac (I knew to start from the foot end and turn the bag as you go, but not to fold the foot vertically first), I've got it down to about 25cm long, which makes it easier. The manufacturer claims it will compress down to 19cm long by 18cm diameter, I reckon you've got to Geoff Capes with a PhD in origami for that. I suppose we should treat size claims with the same scepticism we give to temperature ratings. Abandoning all pretence of spare clothing beyond a jacket, I reckon there's enough space for a bit of food too. It looks like a summer overnighter is certainly possible.

But I know some people do multiday, even multimonth tours with just one of these and maybe something on the bars. If you're such a person, what do you take and how do you pack it? Perhaps this is a case for a frame bag too? Or a very large bar bag? I've seen a photo of someone using a Camper Longflap at each end... the front one supported on a decaleur rack (I think that's the term).

In the end, I scrapped the trip due to a sore throat and a forecasted storm. But maybe next week...

[Cudzoziemiec]

I did at least confirm that there's plenty of room for my hands on the bars with the mat strapped to them, and the mat doesn't distort the "washing lines" or have any noticeable effect on the steering. I remain slightly concerned about the possible effect on the handling of a heavily-laden saddlebag with short chainstays but there's only one way to really rest that.

[Kim]

But I know some people do multiday, even multimonth tours with just one of these and maybe something on the bars. If you're such a person, what do you take and how do you pack it?

I tend to assume that such people  a) don't feel the cold  b) are immune to hard surfaces  and c) smell

[Lightning Phil]

You can get some pretty compact 3/4 length inflatable matts.  I’d think that both mat and sleeping bag in a dry bag would fit strapped to bars. Freeing up the long flap for other stuff.

Here is such a compact lightweight mat https://www.climbers-shop.com/camping/sleeping-pads-mats/klymit-inertia-x-lite-sleeping-mat__9919806

I have this mat and perfectly comfortable

[quixoticgeek]

But I know some people do multiday, even multimonth tours with just one of these and maybe something on the bars. If you're such a person, what do you take and how do you pack it?

I tend to assume that such people  a) don't feel the cold  b) are immune to hard surfaces  and c) smell

So. I can fit everything I need for an overnighter in Spring-Autumn in .NL in my 15l backpack (Exped Typhoon 15).

My kit for such is:

- Alpkit Hunka XL bivvi bag.
- RAB Siltarp 1 + guylines + 6 x 2.5g TI tent pegs + 2 x alpkit Y Beam pegs.
- Tundra Pure 0°C bag.
- Exped Synmat HL M
- Exped Schnozzel bag
- Exped Pillow
- Rab Silk liner
- Mossie head net
- Pair of socks, couple of pairs of microfiber knickers
- GSI Stainless Glacier mug
- Zelph starlite stove
- Speedster stove pot stand
- 400g tin of food
- Evernew water pouch.

This is an expensive load out, that is not exactly entry level for many. The down sleeping bag packs down to a 5l Alpkit Hunka XL dry bag, the sleep mat packs down tiny too.

This relies on the fact that I would be wearing a merino wool top, which doesn't tend to smell for several days. And that I have a coat (probably a Paramo Quito) either warn, or strapped to the outside of the bag. Food wise it's also only one meal.

The biggest difference to what you can fit in a bag is the down sleeping bag. It packs down considerably smaller than the equivalent warmth of synthetic. If you are willing to use specific compression dry bags, you can probably get it even smaller than I do. By using a bivvi bag, and tarp it also reduces volume considerably compared to a tent. The tarp is 198g. The bivvi bag about 500g. You have to spend a lot of money to get a tent of similar weight and bulk. The downside is limited bug protection (hence the head net). if bugs aren't too much of an issue, then a lux hex peak outer only is about 700g plus a pole.

I feel the cold. A lot. The combo of down + the exped sleep mat make for a warm and comfy nights sleep.

J

[quixoticgeek]

You can get some pretty compact 3/4 length inflatable matts.  I’d think that both mat and sleeping bag in a dry bag would fit strapped to bars. Freeing up the long flap for other stuff.

Here is such a compact lightweight mat https://www.climbers-shop.com/camping/sleeping-pads-mats/klymit-inertia-x-lite-sleeping-mat__9919806

I have this mat and perfectly comfortable

Assumes you don't get cold feet. Or can curl up very small.

My sleep matt is about 400g all up (including bag and pump bag). And is full length.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

The mat isn't a problem. It fits on the bars just fine. The sleeping bag wouldn't fit on the bars without the mat, let alone with it, mostly due to the diameter. This bike has "washing line" gear cables and the bag won't fit between them. Lengthwise it's okay if I squash it down as much as possible.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Sure, I could buy a down sleeping bag that packs into a 5 litre dry bag. But that's more money than I'm prepared to spend on it right now, I don't particularly want a down bag (as opposed to synthetic) and this bag still serves me well in terms of warmth and comfort and wear. Something I can think about maybe but not now.

[Cudzoziemiec]

But I know some people do multiday, even multimonth tours with just one of these and maybe something on the bars. If you're such a person, what do you take and how do you pack it?

I tend to assume that such people  a) don't feel the cold  b) are immune to hard surfaces  and c) smell

Hang on, haven't you already established elsethread that some people simply do not smell?!!!

Another possibility is that people are alternating nights in the open (no cover) with B&Bs/hotels/bothies/friends houses.

[Kim]

But I know some people do multiday, even multimonth tours with just one of these and maybe something on the bars. If you're such a person, what do you take and how do you pack it?

I tend to assume that such people  a) don't feel the cold  b) are immune to hard surfaces  and c) smell

Hang on, haven't you already established elsethread that some people simply do not smell?!!!

Yeah, but I'm not sure they ride bikes.

[Lightning Phil]

You can get some pretty compact 3/4 length inflatable matts.  I’d think that both mat and sleeping bag in a dry bag would fit strapped to bars. Freeing up the long flap for other stuff.

Here is such a compact lightweight mat https://www.climbers-shop.com/camping/sleeping-pads-mats/klymit-inertia-x-lite-sleeping-mat__9919806

I have this mat and perfectly comfortable

Assumes you don't get cold feet. Or can curl up very small.

My sleep matt is about 400g all up (including bag and pump bag). And is full length.

J

I have some down booties for camping. Got them for free off mother’s partner as he didn’t get on with them. Botties squash down to nothing. But yeah I don’t get cold feet and usually only take the booties if alpine climbing or camping in the snow.

[quixoticgeek]

I have some down booties for camping. Got them for free off mother’s partner as he didn’t get on with them. Botties squash down to nothing. But yeah I don’t get cold feet and usually only take the booties if alpine climbing or camping in the snow.

My flat is 24°C. I have to sleep with socks on else my feet get cold...

Sure, I could buy a down sleeping bag that packs into a 5 litre dry bag. But that's more money than I'm prepared to spend on it right now, I don't particularly want a down bag (as opposed to synthetic) and this bag still serves me well in terms of warmth and comfort and wear. Something I can think about maybe but not now.

Yep. Wasn't suggesting you go out and spend £325 on a new bag. Merely pointing out how people can manage to fit everything in the long flap. It may be of use to know that my Mountain Hardware Women's Lamina 5°C bag (now discontinued), packs into an Alpkit 8L dry bag. It's not the cheapest bag on the market, but still considerably cheaper than a down bag.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

Sure, I could buy a down sleeping bag that packs into a 5 litre dry bag. But that's more money than I'm prepared to spend on it right now, I don't particularly want a down bag (as opposed to synthetic) and this bag still serves me well in terms of warmth and comfort and wear. Something I can think about maybe but not now.

Yep. Wasn't suggesting you go out and spend £325 on a new bag. Merely pointing out how people can manage to fit everything in the long flap. It may be of use to know that my Mountain Hardware Women's Lamina 5°C bag (now discontinued), packs into an Alpkit 8L dry bag. It's not the cheapest bag on the market, but still considerably cheaper than a down bag.

J

Is that something like this?
https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/mountain-hardwear-lamina-sleeping-bag-1c-D2224085.html
Says it packs to 34 x 18cm, I can get my current bag smaller than that (so I guess this is a case of similar name, changed product).

[Paul H]

Having now watched a video on how to maximally compress a sleeping bag into its stuff sac

How well did they do?
The smallest I've seen a bag packed was into a stuff sack with a valve, I was impressed though I'm not sure I'd want to subject my down quilt to that treatment (neither do I have any need to)

[quixoticgeek]

Is that something like this?
https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/mountain-hardwear-lamina-sleeping-bag-1c-D2224085.html
Says it packs to 34 x 18cm, I can get my current bag smaller than that (so I guess this is a case of similar name, changed product).

Yes, except the one I have is an older version which is only 5°C rated. It's also a women's bag, so slightly shorter. So it all fits in the 8l dry bag.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

Having now watched a video on how to maximally compress a sleeping bag into its stuff sac

How well did they do?
The smallest I've seen a bag bag was into a stuff sack with a valve, I was impressed though I'm not sure I'd want to subject my down quilt to that treatment (neither do I have any need to)

They did a lot better than I did!

[Cudzoziemiec]

Is that something like this?
https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/mountain-hardwear-lamina-sleeping-bag-1c-D2224085.html
Says it packs to 34 x 18cm, I can get my current bag smaller than that (so I guess this is a case of similar name, changed product).

Yes, except the one I have is an older version which is only 5°C rated. It's also a women's bag, so slightly shorter. So it all fits in the 8l dry bag.

J

I treat sleeping bag temperature ratings with scepticism, so I'd probably only use a 5 degree rated bag in the tropics... Add 5 seems a decent rule to follow! I'd never thought about sleeping bags being "gendered" in any meaningful way (ie beyond aesthetics) but I guess it makes sense that they're a bit shorter. Maybe at some point I'll investigate just how much shorter.

[quixoticgeek]

I treat sleeping bag temperature ratings with scepticism, so I'd probably only use a 5 degree rated bag in the tropics... Add 5 seems a decent rule to follow! I'd never thought about sleeping bags being "gendered" in any meaningful way (ie beyond aesthetics) but I guess it makes sense that they're a bit shorter. Maybe at some point I'll investigate just how much shorter.

Oh entirely, they are derived from a heated mannequin, in a controlled environment on a 25mm foam matt. They are supposed to provide 3 numbers, the comfort being what an average woman sleeping on her back get a good night's sleep in. The Limit temp is supposed to be what an average man in the same position could get a good night's sleep in. And the extreme rating is what an average woman can survive a night in, curled up in a fetal position, with frost bite to fingers and toes.

And the great thing about the average woman and the average man, is that they don't exist. Which makes it kinda bogus.

As for men's vs women's sleeping bags. The difference depends on manufacturer. The main difference they all have in common is the women's bag is shorter. In the case of Tundra, that's 100mm shorter. Some manufactures then put more insulation around the upper body. Some shape the bag better to fit round wider hips. In the case of Tundra, then men's and women's bag have the same amount of down, but because the women's bag is shorter, you get a little extra warmth from the larger amount of down per surface area.

The other main difference is that often manufacturers make the women's bags a) more expensive, and b) pink (ok I may be cynical about that one). They may also not do as wide a range, and they may be stocked less by shops. 

J

[Oscar's dad]

I have a Camper Longflap and love it.  But I wouldn't say you can use it to carry ALL your camping kit, in fact I've never even tried so well done Cudzoziemiec for having a go 

This is Fred ready to go on a two night bivvy trip last September.  The Longflap is pretty full, there was some spare room on the Ortlieb Front Rollers...

[tatanab]

For a summer weekend it works.  Anything else - not for me.

I did it to attend a Flying Gate weekend a few years ago.  Camping mat, sleeping bag, minimal change of clothes, bare bones toiletries, probably a few other bits as well and the bag was full.  Side pockets for tools and waterproof jacket.  Tent on top of the bag.  No cooking kit needed because it was an organised weekend.

My usual camping trips are 3 to 4 weeks, so I could not fit my kit (little though it is) plus maps and other items into a Longflap.  Instead I have a bag the capacity of a medium front pannier into which I put all my camping kit plus maps, then have a Longflap which is about 3/4 full with clothes,toiletries, first aid kit etc.  I tour on trikes, so the camping bag sits on a low carrier at about axle height with the Longflap hanging off the saddle and sitting on top of the lower bag, plus a bar bag for paperwork and camera.  Low bulk, not too bothered about weight.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yes, I can't see it being a practical solution for anything more than an overnighter (at least not without spending thousands on ultralight, nanotiny gear) but I do feel it ought to be doable for an S24O, microadventure or whatever term is applied to spending a night outdoors.

Of course another way would be to use two Campers, one on the back, one on the front, as this guy does: https://youtu.be/KTrJmlag4f8
but that would necessitate wider bars, different shifters (with under-tape cables, or else use flat bars), and probably one of those little front racks too. Money-wise it probably adds up to less than outfitting yourself with ultralight, nanotiny gear, but you've basically made yourself a new bike, in terms of how it'll feel, so it would probably be better to start from scratch.

[Paul H]

Yes, I can't see it being a practical solution for anything more than an overnighter (at least not without spending thousands on ultralight, nanotiny gear) but I do feel it ought to be doable for an S24O, microadventure or whatever term is applied to spending a night outdoors.

For such rides I take less. I can do without the cooking gear and a smaller uninsulated mat is fine for a night, even two might be OK, though that's my limit, YMMV.
What's the worst case scenario? For me it's been waking up uncomfortable at 3am and riding home and back to bed, that's happened once. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Worst case scenario? Not having a cup of tea in the morning.  Definitely can't leave the stove behind!

[Oscar's dad]

Worst case scenario? Not having a cup of tea in the morning.  Definitely can't leave the stove behind!

Agreed!

[Cudzoziemiec]

Oh dear. Alpkit are selling off their Pipedream 400 down sleeping bag, which they give a comfort rating according to the standard at -4C (I'll take that as "usable down to zero"), for £170. I think they're no longer producing it or something. Supposedly packs to 25 x 18cm or smaller if you squash it. Could I let myself be tempted? Have they been reading YACF? If they'd hurry up and open their announced Bristol shop, I could go along and squeeze it.