Author Topic: Home energy saving tips /ideas...  (Read 11319 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #50 on: 12 October, 2021, 12:17:22 am »
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%

A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.

Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.

Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...

287.58/365
= 0.787890411

so 787.89GWh per day total.

Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #51 on: 12 October, 2021, 05:57:28 am »
Don't use a tumble drier. Unless you absolutely need to have your clothes dry in a couple of hours, just hang them up, outside if it's dry, inside if not.
I put my washing out just before 9:00 am yesterday morning in a south-facing garden.
There were very light winds and some broken sunshine. When I retrieved them at 7:00pm
they were still slightly damp. At this time of the year I'll be using the tumble dryer.

Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #52 on: 12 October, 2021, 07:44:42 am »
People who just heat part of their houses: don't you get horrendous damp? ??? Even with a dehumidifier, I can't imagine doing that (admittedly, I live in a wet climate and have to dry all my washing indoors as no garden or tumble drier).

Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #53 on: 12 October, 2021, 07:56:36 am »
It is true that you need heating to drive off damp as much as for warmth.  The intermittently-used bedrooms here stay dry, though, so there is probably enough heat soak from other rooms.

I never feel the cold for the first two hours after getting up, so I never have the heating on a timer.  I can get up, light a fire, and the house is warm by the time my Ready Brek glow has faded.  I am lucky with the layout of this house in that one 5.5kW stove heats the whole place, as the stairs come off the lounge.  It also distributes the heat ideally, with cooler bedrooms and the warmest place being the living room.  Insulation is pretty good: there is a porch and a conservatory, meaning no outside doors directly into the house, double glazing (old) and wall and loft insulation to more or less current standards.  Most windows face south.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #54 on: 12 October, 2021, 09:53:08 am »
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%

A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.

Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.

Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...

287.58/365
= 0.787890411

so 787.89GWh per day total.

Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...


Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #55 on: 12 October, 2021, 10:04:54 am »
To quote Melody Maker from decades ago:

Remember, kids, money doesn't make you happy. 

Big houses, swimming pools, fast cars and endless groupies make you happy.
And that!

(Was it Melody Maker? Not a quote from Damon Albarn or someone?)

But in terms of energy usage, just as with consumption of stuff, the richer you are the more you tend to use. Energy efficiency might be another tale.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #56 on: 12 October, 2021, 12:31:08 pm »
Merino base layers are bloody marvellous. As are merino jumpers. They might cost upwards of £60 a piece but you're getting for comfort in low temperatures. And you take that comfort with you when you go outdoors.

See QGs "being rich" post, although I'd argue most of it is actually "comfortably off" rather than "rich" but that may be a perception difference as to what rich is.

It's like bog roll; if you can buy 1 for a quid, or 20 for a fiver, having the extra 4 quid and storage space for 19 bog rolls means you can benefit from the savings.
You can also stack them up to block out a draught while waiting for a tradesman to come along and sort your draught problem.

Don't use a tumble drier. Unless you absolutely need to have your clothes dry in a couple of hours, just hang them up, outside if it's dry, inside if not.
I put my washing out just before 9:00 am yesterday morning in a south-facing garden.
There were very light winds and some broken sunshine. When I retrieved them at 7:00pm
they were still slightly damp. At this time of the year I'll be using the tumble dryer.

I accidentally put the washing machine on the eco settings, so it took 4 hours to do the towels instead of 1; by the time they were on the line for a bit of wind blow it was getting dark and they still needed 2 hours in the heat pump condensing dryer (see bit about having access to more efficient kit via having access to money/credit) still needed a decent while to dry them.  ON the plus side that heats the room it's in quite well, on the down side the room it's in is a sun porch and therefore although it rose the temperature from 5c to 10c I had to have the leccy heater on in there to get the thing up to operating temperature first and it all promptly buggered off through the windows (the roof was insulated by previous owners)
(see the above in context of not having enough money left to build a proper utility room)


Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #57 on: 12 October, 2021, 12:59:00 pm »
The other thing about tumble dryers is that they are a good alternative to wearing wet clothes.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #58 on: 12 October, 2021, 05:31:07 pm »
I agree that the over-run of kettles is insignificant, but you've got a the daily figure wrong. Average use in the UK is around 30 GW, which is around what you said, but that comes to 720 GWh per day, not hundreds of TWh. 3.3 MWh agrees with 100 M cups / 1 minute / 2 kW, and that comes to about 0.00045%

A much bigger load is the standby consumption of stuff. An alternative to a kettle is a boiling water tap, but they use 10 - 30 W on average without any hot water being dispensed. That is 0.24 to 0.72 kWh per day, or 7 to 21 minutes of a 2 kW kettle per day.

Lots of electronic devices take 1 W or so when doing nothing, and many houses have multiple items like that.

Yep, I realised that a couple of hours after posting. I used the annual number, rather than the day number. And if we then do that maths...

287.58/365
= 0.787890411

so 787.89GWh per day total.

Making 3.3MWh each day two thirds of fuck all...


Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.
I don't think that follows, but it's always worth looking at what actually saves power.

1 minute at 2 kW, maybe 4 times a day is an average of 5.5 W. There may well be lots of other things averaging more than that in a house. An incandescent bulb for a couple of hours will use that much.
Quote from: Kim
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quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #59 on: 12 October, 2021, 06:31:03 pm »
I don't think that follows, but it's always worth looking at what actually saves power.

1 minute at 2 kW, maybe 4 times a day is an average of 5.5 W. There may well be lots of other things averaging more than that in a house. An incandescent bulb for a couple of hours will use that much.

Right, so you have 10 devices in your house, where you manage to save 5.5w per day. Thats 55w total. Congrats, you've saved yourself 1.1p per day. Over a whole year, that may be enough to buy a beer.

In the days where a light bulb was 60-100w, then turning it off when you left the room for a few minutes made sense, as that does add up, 10 times quicker. But, cos the EU is pretty damn good, they pushed us to stop using highly inefficient light bulbs, and instead rather than using 60-100w, we're using 5-10w per bulb. We've already made the big leaps in energy efficiency in many cases. It used to be that we were told to turn a TV off completely, and not leave it on standby cos it used so much power. Since 2013 all TV's sold in the EU have had a standby consumption of 1W or less.

Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.

Yes. One of the biggest mistakes the green campaigns have made is making us believe that our personal choices would be able to make a real difference. Sure I may be able to find a way to save myself 100Wh over a day. I may be able to save a few units of what ever it is my heating comes from by turning the thermostat down and huddling under a blanket to watch the TV. But every single one of them will reduce my quality of life disproportionately to the environmental returns we get. Why would I want to make my home colder, when out the window I can see an Oil refinery[1]. Everything we do in our own homes short of installing a heat pump, and installing fuck tons of insulation. Is marginal gains. 2/3rds of a fuckall here, half a buggerall there. It's a rounding error on a rounding error of a nothingth in the grandscheme of things. And all it does is make us feel miserable to make us feel like we're doing our bit.

This is not the time for individual actions on small scales. We need MASS change across whole of society. By far the biggest user of electricity in the UK is the petrochemical industry[2]. Same as the biggest user of Cobalt is oil refineries. And there we can't recycle it at the end of it's life. This is something that is lost in the "But if we all drive EV's the grid will explode!" arguments. A reduction in oil based fuel consumption, should see a reduction in the need for energy in oil refineries. Will it be 1:1. No idea. But if we can switch off a few oil refineries, it's gonna make a massive improvement.

We're fixated on the whole air travel bad thing, and I must admit I fell for this one big time too. Is air travel horrendously polluting? yep. For many of us, a single flight will be the biggest single emission of CO2 in our year. But, aviation is 2% of global CO2 emissions. If we reduce that by half, that means we've cut global emissions by 1%. Not quite a rounding error, but it's hardly massive. If we can convert Cement, and Ferrous metal production to not rely on fossil fuels, and make them zero emissions. We'll take over 10% off global emissions. At that point things are starting to have a measurable impact.

Make transport zero emission, that's another ~10%. Those heat pumps I talked about making space heating zero emission, that's another ~10%. Now we're at 30%. Now it's starting to make an impact. "But how do we power all this!?". Well I got a radical suggestion: BUILD RENEWABLE ENERGY GENERATION SYSTEMS. We're using about 34GW of power in the UK. The largest wind turbines in the world are 16MW each, even at a capacity factor of 50%, that's 5000 turbines. One every kilometer for a line 500km long, and ten lines in total. Built offshore. Have you seen the size of the offshore wind resources we have? Any spare power can be used to make H². Add a few grid scale batteries. And then, cover the built environment in solar. Look around at all the big flat roofed buildings in our towns and cities. Warehouses, supermarkets, superstores. Cover every square meter that we can with solar. Cover the carparks with solar. Give people free solar on any suitable roof they have. The UK has amazing renewable energy resources available, we just have to use them. And before you all scream "But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.

Insulate Britain have got a lot of press, and on the face of it their argument is sound, if we insulated every building in the UK it would improve our energy efficiency. But, I think they'd find a much better impact if they could persuade the government to fund heat pump development. If the UK government was to turn round to industry and say "We'll guarantee the purchase of 10000000 heat pump units, from the first company that can make them for £1000 each." Coupled with a voucher system so that people can have a heat pump fitted to their home and their gas boiler or shitty storage heaters scrapped, for free. The time for piecemeal tinkering was 30 years ago. Now we need big decisive action that will actually have an impact. Shivering in a cold home wrapped in a blanket, having carefully measured out just the right amount of water for your cup of tea, might make you feel like you've done your bit, but really all you're doing is making your own life worse, while letting industry pollute with impunity.

Sorry if that sounds defeatist. But That's the reality. You may save yourself a few quid each year on your bills, but unless you are on a pretty low income, it's unlikely to have a meaningful impact on your bank balance.

J


[1] I can't, there's tree's in the way, and it may be storage rather than a refinery, but you get the idea.
[2] Trying to get reliable source on this, so hold off your [citation needed].
--
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Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #60 on: 12 October, 2021, 07:51:04 pm »
This is a big Victorian house on three floors (plus a cellar) which isn't going to easily be made efficient.  We've zoned the heating so each floor is separately controlled, double-glazed all the sash windows, replaced the one external door with a modern replica which actually seals, and insulated the ceiling of the cellar with not very fire-resistant Cellotex. 

But we have an Aga (it came with the house), though that does mean we don't need a tumble-dryer, just a pulley-operated laundry-maid, and it heats the back half of the house pretty well.

Replacing the 35yr old boiler with a new one (a quarter of the size) made a substantial difference to our bills.

But that's nothing compared to our neighbours who live in a huge, ancient, listed manor house where double-glazing & insulation isn't an option.  During the winter they live in one room with an open fire.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #61 on: 12 October, 2021, 08:08:54 pm »
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.

Essentially, yes.

There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?
For others? LED bulbs might make a small difference. Unplugging standby devices? The numbers quoted in the R4 interview suggested that people must have 20 old CRT Tvs on standby.
Most people who can have already taken most of the measures they realistically can, short of making their homes uncomfortable.
And those who have not, for whatever reason, are adding a rounding error to the grand scheme of things.

So yes, the oft-quoted individual measures really do amount to the square root of fuck-all both on your own bills, and on the bigger picture.

Also sorry if this sounds defeatist.



quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #62 on: 12 October, 2021, 08:11:07 pm »
There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.


That would be BBC More or Less, assuming it's the same program I listened to as well. And where I got the 2013 -> 1W standby number from.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00100jh

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #63 on: 12 October, 2021, 08:21:58 pm »
There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.


That would be BBC More or Less, assuming it's the same program I listened to as well. And where I got the 2013 -> 1W standby number from.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00100jh

J

I think it's likely the same program. I was in the car, and didn't have a calculator to hand.

It was just that the suggestion was in any way a help to anyone struggling with energy bills that made me prickle.
The guy was being asked what practical measures people ( in particular people struggling with energy bills ) could take in face if increased prices.


arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #64 on: 12 October, 2021, 08:33:23 pm »
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?
Indeedy. 
Landlord cares not at all as it's an expense that makes no difference to how much rent they can charge.
Tennant could, with permission, do something but could then be turfed out in favour of another tenant paying a bit more (probably just because, possibly for that beautifully insulated residence).

I don't imagine a system whereby insulation 'investment' depreciates at £x/year (concommittant with the associated savings) and future tenant pays back previous tennant until costs have all been absorbed by savings.  Because it's too complicated.
I'm not sure what the solution is.

And exhalation will always increase the moisture in the air, needing airing to avid damp chill.  etc. thus negating some insulation.  How does a passivhaus maintain its warmth?
In the dark, all views are the same.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #65 on: 12 October, 2021, 08:34:48 pm »
Using this logic, since all individual items is relatively small usage, people may as well do nothing other than cut back on their home aluminium smelting.

Essentially, yes.

There is some saving to be made here and there, eg from bulk-switching from incandescent to low-power LED lights.
But I listened to some wonk from an Energy Saving foundation on R4 a week or so back, being asked how to help reduce bills in the face of increased energy prices.
So, insulate, insulate, insulate. yes. But is that within the remit of the target population struggling with energy bills? Eg. in rented accommodation with a landlord who gives not a fuck?
For others? LED bulbs might make a small difference. Unplugging standby devices? The numbers quoted in the R4 interview suggested that people must have 20 old CRT Tvs on standby.
Most people who can have already taken most of the measures they realistically can, short of making their homes uncomfortable.
And those who have not, for whatever reason, are adding a rounding error to the grand scheme of things.

So yes, the oft-quoted individual measures really do amount to the square root of fuck-all both on your own bills, and on the bigger picture.
Mostly tokenism.

Also sorry if this sounds defeatist.

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #66 on: 12 October, 2021, 08:52:19 pm »
I have no disagreement that it needs government and not individual action, and indeed moving the onus onto individuals is chapter one of the corporate playbook. Plus entrusting it to individual action is a recipe for inaction because most people's response to something like rising sea-levels would be to complain about the price of wellies.

The flying thing is a good one, since it blended class war into the mix, and even if you're totally against flying, you can always justify special circumstances, do some especially diligent recycling, and issue yourself an indulgence. Plus the middle-classes got to roll their eyes at the annual procession of chavs to Gatwick for their week in Ibiza. Why they can't just go to a local literary festival and camp, I don't know.

That said, it doesn't hurt to turn off a boiling kettle or not take a flight, it shows a degree of acknowledgement that's bereft in the millions who will instead buy the latest SUV. If you can, you should. Because if you won't, who else will. Look, I dunno, I don't want to admit defeat any more than the rest of you. I know it's the square root of fuck all too.

I'm trying not to be pessimistic, but everything regarding climate change at the moment is pessimistic – what someone called straining optimism. The fairly dismal aim for 1.5 degrees is dead at this point, even if we get serious tomorrow, two degrees is looking like the minimum. For the record, 1.5 degrees is catastrophic and not one single country has made any significant progress towards even this lesser goal (which would have required 15% year on year cut starting in 2020, other than a faint dent from Covid, emissions continue to rise). The recovery from Covid hasn't been seized as a way to do things differently, the response is instead to turbocharge our way back to where we were.

The plan the human race has at the moment is that we will invent a magic machine that makes it all go away.
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #67 on: 12 October, 2021, 08:56:30 pm »
The plan the human race has at the moment is that we will invent a magic machine that makes it all go away.

With a side order of "Just as long as it's not paid for by public money... "

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #68 on: 12 October, 2021, 09:00:57 pm »
One problem with landlords insulating houses is the tenant's toleration of disruption caused by fitting anything worthwhile.  Even extra loft insulation is tricky if the tenant is storing stuff up there, and you can forget internal or external wall insulation.  You can probably get away with new windows and doors.  If it's your own house, you don't mind living in a building site.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
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Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #69 on: 12 October, 2021, 09:10:30 pm »
Give everyone a half price or free ASHP and solar PV where applicable. On top of what QG said about the roofs of the notverysupermarches etc. Suddenly all these technologies become cheaper, people are more likely to pay the subsidised cost, everyones got one, the whole 'early adopter' factor goes away.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #70 on: 12 October, 2021, 09:29:50 pm »
Yes, but the government (and not just ours) won't even impose even minimal requirements, even on new builds but they might shave a per cent off the profit margins of the developers to whom they're beholden.

Truth is, we need a 'Manhattan Project,' every country in the world needs one to deal with this on every level and the balls to get industry to start paying. You take oil out of the ground, pay the costs – pollutions, climate change, every single cent to account for that. Not doing so is a massive and destructive subsidy. By allowing the construction of poorly insulated, inefficient homes – of course – it's a similar mechanism of subsidy, and it's paid for by the people who live in them.

Hard choices, of course, and I get no sense we'll make them until it's too late. What government in the world is going to turn around at the end of 2021 and even tell its citizens they can't buy a large car? This isn't even something that will have an impact on their life (they can still buy a car and drive everywhere if they choose) but we can't and won't do it. Factor that across all the lifestyle changes we need to make in the developed world and the scale of the problem should be manifest.

To have any chance of getting back to 1.5-degree rise, we need to reduce global emissions by at least 50% in the next 8 years. There's no political or social will to make this happen. We treat it like any other social ill – we could for instance solve hunger, end poverty, stop homelessness – these are all doable things, and not even expensive things, but we choose not to do them. The difference is that these things, put of out of mind, just happen and they don't affect the rest of us. We can put them aside. Doing that with climate isn't such an option.
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets

Wowbagger

  • Sylph
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #71 on: 12 October, 2021, 10:37:16 pm »
One problem with landlords insulating houses is the tenant's toleration of disruption caused by fitting anything worthwhile.  Even extra loft insulation is tricky if the tenant is storing stuff up there, and you can forget internal or external wall insulation.  You can probably get away with new windows and doors.  If it's your own house, you don't mind living in a building site.

Extra loft insulation is also of limited value, depending upon what is being stored and how much loft space it occupies. We've got boxes full of old books, GCSE, A level and degree projects up there. On the rare occasions it snows round here, our house generally keeps it on the roof longer than most.
Bach without a doubt.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #72 on: 12 October, 2021, 11:53:00 pm »
The thing that always throws me about loft insulation is that Shirley it just exacerbates the upstairs/downstairs temperature difference.

Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #73 on: 13 October, 2021, 07:29:24 am »
The thing that always throws me about loft insulation is that Shirley it just exacerbates the upstairs/downstairs temperature difference.
I would have said that is only the case where the upstairs heating isn't separately controlled.

Upstairs will be heated by convection from downstairs, but it can't get hotter than downstairs unless there is a significant upstairs heat source.
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Re: Home energy saving tips /ideas...
« Reply #74 on: 13 October, 2021, 08:20:24 am »
And before you all scream "But how are you going to pay for it?". Easy. Tax the fucking rich.
<United Kingdom
Following the reduction of the top rate of income tax in the UK from 50% to 45% in 2013, HMRC estimated the cost of the tax reduction to be about £100 million (out of an income for this group of around £90 billion), but with large uncertainty on both sides. Robert Chote, the chairman of the UK Office for Budget Responsibility commented that Britain was "strolling across the summit of the Laffer curve", implying that UK tax rates had been close to the optimum rate.[37][38]>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

If only slogans solved problems  :)