Author Topic: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs  (Read 1235 times)

Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« on: 15 November, 2021, 07:36:42 pm »
Hello,

I have been looking at vintage ball and cone hubs on ebay c.1940-1960's roughly, please can you tell me how well these would fair in the wet weather in comparison to modern hubs with sealed bearings? I like the idea of something that has stood the test of time, and also aware that hubs like sturmey archer's have been going for 50+ years without problems but just wondering whether this would work on a day to day basis and what sort of servicing would be required? Thinking about getting a fixed gear hub...

Thanks in advance,


Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #1 on: 15 November, 2021, 07:56:23 pm »
The grease washes out relatively quickly - as in you will probably need to regrease on a monthly basis (if you ride a lot).

This is really easy to do and I used to much prefer them.

However, adjusting cone and bearing hubs is a bit of a pain - for the rear they need a tad pre-load.

Replacing bearings is also easy.

That said you do need to check them frequently.

<i>Marmite slave</i>

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #2 on: 15 November, 2021, 08:02:05 pm »
Monthly? Annually or bi-annually IMHO.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #3 on: 15 November, 2021, 08:03:41 pm »
I wouldn't bother unless replacement cups & cones are obtainable. 

Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #4 on: 15 November, 2021, 08:19:37 pm »
I have a number of such hubs from the 1960s to 1990s in use.  Some more regular than others.  These range from late 60s Campag Tipo, 1970s Le Tour double fixed, up to late 90s (probably) Campag record.

The modern ish Camapg Record is on my best machine and gets regreased every three years or so whether it likes it of not - or when I can be bothered to think about it.  The grease is generally good and intact, but being on my best machine it does only about 2000 miles a year.

I recall that I used to regrease my Le Tour (very basic and cheap) hubs on very regularly used machines (1960s to 1990s) probably every spring.  I don't recall any particular problem with grease disappearing.

It makes you realise that modern components are virtually maintenance free with all their sealed bearings, and this has probably contributed to the phobia that some have of a more basic design.  But I do enjoy tinkering.

Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #5 on: 15 November, 2021, 08:52:10 pm »
Thanks, useful to read people's views on this, I read Sheldon Brown's comments on sealed bearings and it made me question them and whether ball and cone may be worthy of considering, however, have since seen this was written in 1998 so would think the technology has advanced since this time. Link is here for anyone interested: https://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

Thanks again for all the useful info, and good to know that people are still using ball and cone hubs :)

Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #6 on: 15 November, 2021, 09:36:38 pm »
I think Shimano and Campagnolo still use cup and cone bearings for their hubs.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technologies/component/details/cup-cone-bearing.html

Cartridge bearing hubs are usually made by smaller/boutique companies.

Cartridge bearings are "sealed" in the sense that they cannot be disassembled, not that they are sealed against contaminants.

Sealing is more a feature of the hub, I would guess more modern hubs have dustcaps with labyrinth and contact seals that helps to stop dirt getting to the bearings (cup and cone or cartridge).

Older hubs don't have seals but might have grease ports or holes where you can pump in fresh grease, perhaps after a very wet ride and a disassembly is only needed very occasionally. Campagnolo Tipo and track hubs don't have the hole in the barrel but the dustcaps still have a hole, although that's probably because of using the same dustcap in all their hubs.

I would think a fixed hub gear like Sturmey Archer uses a oil bath.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #7 on: 15 November, 2021, 09:46:53 pm »
Use calcium-based grease like Ramonol Universal.  It's designed for things that are dunked in the sea, like boat trailer wheel bearings.  I use it in pedals and headsets that don't have any proper sealing.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #8 on: 16 November, 2021, 07:36:34 am »
The terminology is confusing, especially when cartridge bearings are sold with or without "seals", but as hubner says, that doesn't make them sealed bearings.

I'm not a complete mechanical klutz, doing all my bike maintenance bar wheel building, but I find cup and cone bearings in hubs and bottom brackets very fiddly to get right. And if you get it wrong and end up with scored cups that can end up expensive and/or difficult to fix.

Tatanab gives around 6,000 miles between maintenance which sounds about right, and that maintenance will be cheap if you do it yourself. By comparison a good cartridge hub bearing can do five or even ten times that before replacement.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #9 on: 16 November, 2021, 02:05:17 pm »
The only thing about buying secondhand (and probably particularly on e-bay) is making sure that what you're buying is not already knackered and is not being sold for a collector to put on a period piece that won't get used much.

I have some Mavic hubs with cartridge bearings that are still fine 40+ years down the road. Just as well, I haven't got the tools to take them apart!

Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #10 on: 16 November, 2021, 07:00:17 pm »
Monthly? Annually or bi-annually IMHO.
I agree. I've got ball and cone hubs that have lasted for decades.

Campagnolo are best, in that they have most replaceable parts. You can even replace the bearing surfaces - I've done it as a home job (there's a thread somewhere with photos). I know one place that does that for Shimano, but theirs are excessively tightly fitted, and apparently need the hubs to be frozen to extract them.

Sealed bearing units are probably preferable overall, but ball and cone are pretty good.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #11 on: 16 November, 2021, 07:06:32 pm »
Use calcium-based grease like Ramonol Universal.  It's designed for things that are dunked in the sea, like boat trailer wheel bearings.  I use it in pedals and headsets that don't have any proper sealing.

El zillarillo is right.

I use waterproof greases all over the bike, then I don't ride much anymore.

chopstick

  • aka "freiston" in other places
Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #12 on: 17 November, 2021, 05:36:24 pm »
iirc, I used to regrease my wheel & BB bearings about once a year and sometimes an extra go when I was giving the bike a "deep clean".  I did have a front wheel in the 90s that needed a regrease if I blasted the hub with the hose pipe when cleaning the bike.  I started off using a red coloured bicycle grease that I can't remember the name of from the LBS but in the 90s when I had that front hub, I used to use grease that I got from work - can't remember what it was but it was tan/brown in colour and most likely Castrol.  I have also used lithium grease and silicon grease (mostly not for any special reason other than the hope that it will wash away less easily).

I do recall "vintage" hubs with grease ports so that you could just fill them with grease without having to even take the wheel out of the bike.

As I remember, current Shimano hubs are all cup and cone with loose bearings but have a "washer seal" that goes on underneath a flange on the cone (except for on the rear freehub side, where it is fixed into the freehub body).

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #13 on: 17 November, 2021, 07:38:08 pm »
Some WTB and Suntour hubs had grease ports.  The holes on the older hubs are generally for oil, although I've heard the dustcap holes (not the hole on the barrel) on Campag hubs works ok with a needle-nosed grease gun.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

fruitcake

  • some kind of fruitcake
Re: Practicality of vintage ball and cone hubs
« Reply #14 on: 20 November, 2021, 01:48:14 pm »
I have both types. I'm riding my cartridge bearing freehub wheels til the bearings wear out and then I'll start riding older cup and cone wheels with threaded rear hub. I like that I can strip the older hubs and replace the bearings and cones with standard parts cheaply, because these parts are same left and right. Shimano compatible hub parts are cheapest, the main difference from Campag being the diameter and width of the cone.

This is a good time to buy second hand QR wheels as the industry is now fitting 'through axle' to new bikes so plenty of people are selling surplus QR kit.

An oil port on the hub is a very nice-labour saving feature for wetting the grease with oil when it starts to dry out. That's the type I'd choose.