The Bread Thread

[pcolbeck]

Update on the below. I finally got round to baking this. From the packet its a mix of strong white and granary with with added malted bits.
Used the standard no 4 program in the Panasonic and its turned out great. I think this will make a good loaf for sandwiches.

[aidan.f]

Mrs H. has  had  some very successful sourdough experimentation and I am feeling very well fed. She's away for a week so now it is my turn to try. Took a spoonful of starter from the fridge and it is now fermenting visibly after only 12 hours. Out textbook instructions (Modern Sourdough: Eshkeri ) are to at 24 hours refresh it yet again - 10g from this pot into a new starter for another 12 hours. It's then implied, but not clear that you repeat this 12 hour cycle once again. Why the process of successive dilution of an active culture into fresh flour and re-fermentation? seems a bit of a waste. Or is this some sort of Homeopathy?

[Mrs Pingu]

The more bugs you have growing, the quicker they're going to use the food up. Exponential growth and all that.

[aidan.f]

Yes... but each serving does not get any bigger!

[Jakob W]

I think the argument for multiple feedings before use is that a starter that's been merrily multiplying away is more active; if the bread recipe calls for smaller amounts of starter and shorter bulk ferments, then you want the yeasts to be in peak condition. I've never really found it necessary; I'll refresh the starter once when I take it out of the fridge, but as I use an overnight sponge and slow proofing for my standard sourdough loaf, I figure this is all it needs.

[citoyen]

Why the process of successive dilution of an active culture into fresh flour and re-fermentation? seems a bit of a waste. Or is this some sort of Homeopathy?

It's not dilution, it's feeding. And once fed, the microbes will start to multiply. If you feed it then put it somewhere warm, 3-4 hours later it might contain triple the number of microbes.

I only keep a small amount in reserve between bakes (about 50g) so a couple of feed cycles will build it up to the quantity I need for my recipe, with some left over to go back in the fridge when I'm finished.

I try to use the starter when it is at the peak of its activity because I find it gives more predictable results. All this means is that after feeding, I will wait until it has roughly doubled in volume before using it. And try to use it before it starts sinking again, because that means it is past its peak. I'm far from scientific about it though - and the timing of each stage often depends on how busy I am.

[Davef]

I believe it is to do with the yeast/bacteria ratio. You are diluting the slower growing bacteria whilst breeding fast growing yeast.

Edit: and also diluting the acidic byproducts of earlier activity.

[aidan.f]

thanks everyone  - interesting.

[Tim Hall]

Stepping away from sourdough for a moment, I had a go at a peshwari naan recipe that was in The Guardian the other day.



Unlike the previous naan recipe I've used, this was oven baked, not fried.  Taste was good, but it rose more than I expected.  I think I'll try it again and pay more attention to the shaping/flattening of the dough.

[citoyen]

I believe it is to do with the yeast/bacteria ratio. You are diluting the slower growing bacteria whilst breeding fast growing yeast.

Any healthy sourdough contains a balance of both yeast and bacteria. My (limited) understanding is that temperature and hydration are the biggest influences on that balance. I think the general idea is to create an environment where the good microbes can thrive and crowd out the toxic microbes.

This is interesting, if fairly superficial, reading:
https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/sourdough-science/

Personally, I'm quite slapdash with my sourdough maintenance regime but the unpredictability is part of the fun. As long as I get something edible out of the process, I don't mind if it's not Instagram-perfect. It pretty much always tastes better than any shop-bought bread.

It would be interesting to get a laboratory analysis of my sourdough, though obviously there's every chance the composition would have changed by the time the results came back.

[Mrs Pingu]

This week I managed to get some Sainsbo's strong white bread flour.
Huzzah!
I thought it was the Gilchrists wholemeal that was making my bread shite, but it seems it was the Mungoswells white.
(I wonder if if was plain white mislabelled as strong white)

Anyway, now I can actually make a bog standard yeasted loaf again I can get back on the sourdough horse.

[Wowbagger]

I made some Chelsea buns the other day. As usual, they unravelled during their final rise and, although they tasted fine, were disappointingly misshapen.

It then dawned on my why. When you buy commercially-produced Chelsea buns, they have been packed together so tightly in the tin that they haven't got room to spread out and unravel as they rise, but they must rise vertically, and that keeps them tightly-wound. I'm going to do another batch in the near future.

And something I've discovered about our breadmaker, a Panasonic. On the last two occasions that I've used a recipe involving only a small amount of dough (250g flour in each case) it has come within a gnat's crotchet of leaping off the worktop. I normally make loaves involving at least 400g of flour and we don't seem to get that problem. This seems to be a corollary to the partially-filled washing machine leaping across the kitchen. My next batch of Chelsea buns will be a double quantity of "enriched" dough - so called because it has an egg in it.

[citoyen]

packed together so tightly in the tin that they haven't got room to spread out and unravel as they rise, but they must rise vertically

Tbh, I thought that was always their USP.

They’re a Georgian invention, originally sold at the imaginatively named Chelsea Bun House.

[Tim Hall]

Back on sourdough. I slash away with a razor blade but don’t get the eruption and crispy bit that tragic hipsters crave. Leastways not at the slashing site- my last two loaves have erupted elsewhere on the crust, making odd shaped loaves. I use The Flatus Recipe, 220c fan oven, dish of water for humidity. Good amount of oven spring, batard  shape loaf. Should I be slashing deeper?

[Hot Flatus]

245⁰c.  Put dough in casserole dish. 30 mins lid on, then  20-25 with lid off depending on how dark a crust you'd like. Slash with razor blade at very shallow angle to bread.

Only this is the authentic recipe with the Flatus Seal of Approval.

[citoyen]

Back on sourdough. I slash away with a razor blade but don’t get the eruption and crispy bit that tragic hipsters crave. Leastways not at the slashing site- my last two loaves have erupted elsewhere on the crust, making odd shaped loaves.

I get this all the time. It’s because the top crust is setting before it has had a chance to do its exploding thing. But there is still rising power in the dough, so it needs to find a release elsewhere...

If you’re not using a cloche or Dutch oven, you might find you get better results by reducing the temperature to 200.

You can also try misting the surface of the loaf with water before putting it in the oven.

[hatler]

Back on sourdough. I slash away with a razor blade but don’t get the eruption and crispy bit that tragic hipsters crave. Leastways not at the slashing site- my last two loaves have erupted elsewhere on the crust, making odd shaped loaves. I use The Flatus Recipe, 220c fan oven, dish of water for humidity. Good amount of oven spring, batard  shape loaf. Should I be slashing deeper?

That was Thatcher's tactic, wasn't it ?

[citoyen]

That was Thatcher's tactic, wasn't it ?

You are Ben Elton AICMFP

[hatler]

That was Thatcher's tactic, wasn't it ?

You are Ben Elton AICMFP

  Many many years ago I was mistaken for him (though how on earth is completely beyond me.)

[Mrs Pingu]

Sort of bready

2020-07-25_04-00-56 by The Pingus, on Flickr

[SteveC]

My new grain mill arrived on Friday and today was the first chance I had to use it.

Grain mill by Steve Cunio, on Flickr
First flour coming out of the mill (apart from the small amount run through first to clear out any debris from the stones).


Grain mill by Steve Cunio, on Flickr
And the batch of bread from said flour. It's 100% wholemeal wheat. Conventional yeast, not sourdough. Poolish or sponge method.

[Wowbagger]

Pardon me for being dim, but how can a wheat grain not be 100% wholemeal?

[SteveC]

True. But I also have spelt and rye to play with.
We tasted the bread this morning. MrsC commented that it was nice,  but that she couldn’t tell the difference from our normal wholemeal.

[Ham]

I was going to ask, why? Is there any benefit, health wise or flavour?

[citoyen]

Is it like grinding your own coffee beans?