Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 10 December, 2009, 09:27:28 pm
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There's a mahoosive damp patch on the external wall of my bathroom, around the window. I can't find any internal dampness at all and I have no idea where it's coming from. Unfortunately, my flat is on the 2nd floor so I can't really have a poke around the damp bit. So I've phoned a builder and he's going to explore it. He thinks it might be a leaking internal downpipe. :'(
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Kirst, I would gladly have come and helped you with your damp patch ::-), but it is rather a long way to claim I'm going to visit a resident who needs advice....
Good luck with it, people who think internal downpipes are a clever idea should be boiled in what goes down them, for a week. Conventional internal soil pipes seem to be fine, but in blocks, with internal rainwater pipes, the friggin' things always seem to leak at some very inconvenient point. I used to deal with an entire estate, with internal rainwater pipes wot kept leaking, and a bloomin' nuisance they were too..
Is this an ancient traditional Edinburgh-ish place, or a more modern atrocity, and do you own it?
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I do own it, and it's 1890ish. Luckily pipes and roofs etc are communal so we all have to pay for repairs. We've already got a roof repair going on. ::-)
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Oh dear, I hope it's not been leaking for a while cos dry rot is a bugger to get treated - we got ours done on insurance though, hopefully it's not gone that far for you.
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Is that why it's called 'auld reekie'?
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Unless its been leaking for ages, dry rot is unlikely. It is a nightmare in the unlikely event that it does happen, though. Best to let the tradesman uncover said pipes, and see where its leaking. Often its from a floor above, and only shows at a point where it can escape from its confinement. any idea if its a rainwater pipe, or the soil pipe, i.e. a trifle more malodorous...?
I'd still be honoured to help see to your damp patch (working on the theory that e-flirting with someone many hundreds of miles away is safe 'cos Kirst won't realise I'm a wrinkly old married git from that range) Oh bugger, just blew it....
Fingers crossed for an easily cured joint leak...
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I thought this was going to be a rude thread :)
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I don't know what it is or where it's from. There's nothing visible or smellable within the flat, it really all does seem to be on the outside wall. We've had some problems with the rhones and the roof lately so it might be all part of that.
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We've had some problems with the rhones
I had to Google that
Every day's a school day on YACF :)
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We've had some problems with the rhones
I had to Google that
Every day's a school day on YACF :)
Well you could have told us all :P
Ish it the drain-pipes Maark Mal ?*
* In case of doubt, that's a Mark and Lard reference.
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I thought this was going to be a rude thread :)
O:-)
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I was thinking of the Grosch "blue movie" advert, which I can't find anywhere on the web.
"Schtopp! This blue movie is not ready yet! Where is this guy's moustache? Why is he actually fixing the 'fridge?"
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Schmoke an' a pancake?
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We've had some problems with the rhones
I had to Google that
Every day's a school day on YACF :)
So did I and am none the wiser!
S
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The builder was supposed to come tomorrow to look at it but events have since taken a turn for the worse.
Tonight I could hear water dripping into the bath and couldn't work out why as the shower's been turned off since this morning. I went to have a look and water was dripping steadily from the ceiling. My bathroom ceiling is a false ceiling, plasterboard, hiding the boiler flue and there are no pipes above it. I went upstairs and checked with the bloke in the flat above (he of the thong) and he said "no, no, everything's dry." So I made him come downstairs and look at the water dripping through my ceiling, and he said he would go and take his bath panel off and check.
Half an hour later he came back down and said everything was fine up there so I realised I had no option but to call a plumber. There are two plumbers I have used in the past - Alexander Ritchie who is no longer in the phone book so I think isn't in business any more, and Eddie the Plumber who is quite elderly and I didn't want to call him out at night if I could help it. Luckily my adaptations work brings me into contact with tradespeople and I have a good relationship with the excellent Special Care Bathrooms who I would be delighted to recommend to any of you if I was allowed to do so. I have one of their guys' numbers in my work mobile so I rang him and asked him to recommend someone in Edinburgh who would come out and not rip me off. Garry (for that is his name) came himself, all the way from Ormiston on a Tuesday night.
He took a board out of my false ceiling and we realised that my real ceiling and the top flat's floorboards are wet and rotten through, and I have a lovely crop of fungus growing over the top side of my false ceiling. There was lots of water visible and it seems pretty obvious that that's where the external damp patch has come from. We went upstairs and got the neighbour to come down and look, and then we went upstairs and Garry had a root around in the upstairs kitchen and bathroom and found the problem in seconds. Upstairs, which is a rented flat, has clearly been plumbed by morons. Various things aren't connected properly, including the toilet overflow (that's not connected at all) and the bathroom sink waste, and water has obviously been soaking into the floor and into my ceiling for months, if not years.
My neighbour is very apologetic and says he'll fix the plumbing tomorrow but doesn't seem to understand that he's probably going to have to get a whole new floor for the kitchen and bathroom. He doesn't seem to want to involve the landlord so I will have to use my cooncil contacts to find out who it is and notify him myself. I don't think there's any point in me fixing my ceiling until I know that upstairs is fixed, or this'll just happen again. I'll notify my insurance company tomorrow that work will need to be done and let them sort it, but there's no point covering it all up until I know it's dry upstairs.
I think that the water has eventually soaked its way into the outside wall and the sandstone has just sucked it up like a sponge, hence the massive damp patch. :-\
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We've had some problems with the rhones
I had to Google that
Every day's a school day on YACF :)
So did I and am none the wiser!
S
Yeh, he could have posted the results of said googling for the rest of us.
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Who do you think I am: Reg ?
:)
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Rhones are downpipes.
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my googling efforts found this: Rhone (http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/research/glossary/rhone.html)
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At least you know what it is, now.... I'm puzzled at the tenant upstairs not wanting to call the landlord, that would surely be the first thing to do, after all, its the landlords problem, surely? Your insurance company may well want to be rather firm with him about needing the landlord information, as they may well be seeking recompense from him. If you suggest to him that your insurance company will need the landlord details (rather than you yourself being "awkward") he may understand the need for that involvement. After all, as well as him needing plumbing and flooring work, you'll be needing a compete new ceiling, and soem decoration and mould treatment work. And of course you may be allergic to the mopuld treatment, so you'll need to go into a 5 star hotel over Christmas...
Those adaptation plumbing types are very good, they always seem so, well, adaptable, and work out how to solve a problem. So good in fact, that one of our staff here is marrying said equivalent person.... We're on the local authority side, after the OT's have said what they want. Its not what I do (at the moment), but I can design adaptations, 'cos I is a designer by profession, innit?
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The bloke upstairs doesn't have very good English, but he told me last night he's a plumber. I don't think he works as a plumber here, and I did think Garry was going to punch him last night when he said he was a plumber - Garry's standing there saying "you're a plumber and you didn't notice your toilet overflow isn't connected and there's water pouring out of the bathroom sink waste?" I don't think he's really understanding that the floor is rotted and therefore my ceiling is rotted and it is a big job to put it right. I know a man in housing who can find out who the landlord is for me so I will be contacting the landlord myself. Since last night the screws holding the bathroom light have come loose and the light shroud was hanging off, so I won't be using that till it's all sorted. Luckily I spent a lot of money on a mirror with lights so I won't have to shower in the dark meanwhile!
Special Care Bathrooms are the company I've dealt with most often for bathroom adaptations and I've never had any problem with them. They do what they're supposed to, they don't do what they're not supposed to without checking first, they understand the grants system, they listen to the OTs and don't treat us like daft wee lassies who know nothing, they do very good quality work and clients say they're always very good while they're in the houses, as quiet and tidy as they can be, no swearing, no loud radios, they tidy up after themselves without being asked - they're great. And coming out at 8 o'clock on a Tuesday night from Ormiston and not charging is above and beyond!
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Your insurer will seek to claim back from the idiot upstairs. They will also be able to identify, if not locate the actual owner.
Good luck.
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...he told me last night he's a plumber.
There's a possible answer as to why he doesn't want to involve the Landlord. What are the odds that the botched work was done by him, without the Landlord's knowledge? ::-)
Can open; worms everywhere! :-[
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Oh dear Kirst, that sounds terrible! If it's been going on that long then you may very well have dry rot (fungus like stuff) which will cost an arm and a leg to treat as well. Hopefully your insurers should do all the chasing for you, it shouldn't really be up to you to have to hassle the guy upstairs and his landlord, and I bet his landlord will want to know about the state of his flat!
Poor Kirst! <hug>
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Presuming this is a converted house/leasehold situation, wouldnt this sort of thing be covered by the building insurance?
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Doesn't work like that in Scotland, Domestique - every flat should have it's own buildings insurance cover.
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The good woman next door had similar problems last year.The down pipe from her toilet/bath was fractured whilst a patterned cement path was laid.The fracture and its resultant effects were un-noticed until her refrigerator fell through the floor boards.
The complete underfloor cavity was filled with fungal growth.It looked like a winter wonderland.
Her insurance company insisted that the complete bottom half of the house was ripped out.Floorboards,joists and most of the plaster off the walls.Anti-fungals and warm air blowers were then in place for several months.As well as the obvious damage repair the other worry was that the fungal infection might cause her own health to deteriorate.
She was homed in a similar` property during the repairs.Ended up with a fully redecorated home,new kitchen and furniture.
Make any insurers work hard for your premiums.'er next door rejected three rentals as unacceptable before she was rehomed.
n
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This is sounding horrendous Kirst, with this and your damaged derriere I'm starting to think you've pissed off the Karma fairy or something..
If you need alternative housing I can offer my spare tent......, Would industrial quantities of chocolate make life a little better ?
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Presuming this is a converted house/leasehold situation, wouldnt this sort of thing be covered by the building insurance?
No, it's a tenement. Purpose-built flats on 4 floors around a central stair.
Rang a pal in housing section who has found out that although the flat is a private let, the landlord isn't registered, which is not legal, so the lettings bit of the council are going to chase that up, and meanwhile my pal was checking other databases to find out who the owner is.
Eventually got a name and address for the owner, got his number from the phone book, rang him and he said nobody had notified him of the problem. He agreed to send a plumber out straight away but doesn't seem to be appreciating the state of the floor. He mentioned he uses a letting agent so I emailed them tonight
Dear Sir or Madam
I live at 2f3, [my street], directly below 3f3, which I understand you are the letting agents for.
Over the past month or so I have been aware of an increasing damp patch on the outside of my bathroom wall, which I have been having investigated. Last night there was water dripping through my bathroom ceiling. When I went up to speak to the tenant in 3f3, he was insistent that everything was dry upstairs. I called out a tradesman who took down part of my false ceiling to reveal that the actual ceiling is dripping wet, running with water and blooming with fungus. We went upstairs to look at 3f3 and my tradesman identified immediately that the toilet overflow pipe in 3f3 is not connected to anything, and the waste pipe for the bathroom sink is not properly connected. The floor under the kitchen sink is wet. It's obvious that the water from the bathroom waste has just been running into 3f3's floor and then my ceiling, and has eventually seeped into the external wall, which has soaked it up like a sponge.
I have contacted the owner, (name), and he is arranging for a plumber to attend immediately. However, I must emphasise that my ceiling and therefore 3f3's floor appear to be in an extremely poor condition owing to water damage and it will need to be inspected and repaired by a competent tradesperson. I have notified my insurance company and they will be contacting [owner]. I would be extremely unhappy at the prospect of the tenant using the bath before the floor is inspected and made good as I am very concerned that the weight of the water will collapse the floor.
Although I have contacted [owner] directly, I feel it is helpful to let you know the situation also. I must express my concern that the flat has been let with incorrect and inadequate plumbing which has caused considerable damage to 3f3, my flat and possibly to the external wall. I trust you and [owner] will ensure the external wall is inspected and repaired if necessary. Also, I am concerned that the tenant did not seem willing to notify anyone of the problem. I understand that his English is not good, but he insisted that he would fix the plumbing himself today (he stated he is a plumber himself, but he did not seem to have noticed the unconnected toilet overflow or the incorrectly connected sink waste) and did not seem to understand that the situation with the floor could be very serious. When I spoke to [owner] this afternoon, he stated he was not aware of the problem, so I am presuming the tenant has not contacted you.
I would be grateful if you would liaise with [owner] to ensure that the floor is inspected and made good, and that the tenant is advised not to use the bath until we are certain it is safe to do so. My insurance company will be in touch with [owner] re the damage to my property, and I will take advice regarding your responsibility for letting a flat with inadequate plumbing.
I look forward to hearing from you
My insurance company are going to send out someone to inspect my flat but I've told them there's no point doing the repairs until we're sure upstairs have sorted it out, because if they don't sort it upstairs, it'll just happen again. I've also told the owner of upstairs that he'll be paying any excess on my policy.
Still, it's taken my mind off my arse and my battle with Phones 4 U.
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Well, they come in threes they say? Hopefully this is the end of your run of poo....
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Early this morning my insurance company phoned to say I have 3 options for the repairs. They are
1) get one estimate from a contractor of my choice, and forward that to them with photographs of the damage. They will review the estimate and the damage, which will take 7-10 days, and then give me the go ahead to get the work done, and issue a cheque for the full amount minus the £75 excess.
2) do the repairs myself
once I'd stopped laughing she told me option
3) get the insurance inspectors to inspect it, they will do a report for the insurance company, they will review it which will take 7-10 days and then their people will come and repair it.
I phoned Special Care Bathrooms and said look, if you don't want the job, that's fine and I won't mind, so don't say you'll do it if you don't want it, but if you would like to do it, I'd be delighted to offer you the work. They said yes, so that's good.
When I got to work, the owner of the flat above phoned to say he was meeting a plumber here this morning to inspect the damage, and could I give them access so they can inspect my flat too. And he said "I do know a bit about it because I'm an architect." I managed not to say "but you've let a flat with disconnected plumbing so you really can't be that good" and had a soothing herbal tea and went off to meet him back here.
He came in, flashed his torch around my bathroom, muttered a bit and then said something like "my tenant is a plumber and he's repaired the leak and you just need to keep the ceiling uncovered to let it dry and when you think it's dry, let me know and I'll come and make it good." I felt like he was seconds away from patting me on the head and saying "there there dear, don't worry your pretty little head about it, I'll sort it out." I managed not to hit him, and I told him that I really wasn't happy that he'd let the tenant fix it, seeing as the tenant hadn't noticed the disconnected pipes in the first place, and that I was more concerned about the rotting floor/ceiling, and that he would not be making it good himself, my insurance company would be dealing with it through a contractor of my choice. He didn't seem too pleased about that and wouldn't answer my questions about the safety of the floor. I am not at all happy at his patronising attitude and I will not be taking his word for it that the floor is ok. I will also be submitting a request for him to pay the excess on my policy and if he says no, I will go to small claims for it because I should not be left out of pocket by his wanton incompetence and negligence.
When I got back to work I phoned Garry from SCB and told him what had happened, and that I feel the bloke was patronising me because having a uterus renders me incapable of understanding things about building works. Garry couldn't speak for laughing. I freely admit I am not a builder, my side of disability adaptations is the disability bit, but after 10 years of doing them I have picked up some knowledge, and you don't need a plumbing qualification to know that pipes should connect and floors/ceilings should not be soggy. So Alistair is coming round tomorrow morning to take the photos (lots while it's still wet and looks really bad) and do the insurance report and estimate, but it'll probably be mid-January before the work's finished. I'm really not convinced the owner is taking the floor problem seriously, so I am going to encourage the insurance company to follow that up vigilantly.
I could really do without this, you know.
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Landlord sounds like a right knobend. Still, it's good your insurers are up for letting your friendly contractors do the work, at least you won't have to worry about them as well.
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I could really do without this, you know.
Great timing, too just before Christmas. Still: at least you've tracked down the upstairs landlord quickly (not always a given) and at least you know trustworthy contractors. It's nice to get little unexpected bonuses indirectly from a vocational line of work.
Landlord sounds like a right knobend.
Quite so! Let's hope he gets his from (a) housing and (b) his insurers*. Actually, given the nature of the plumbing "repairs", mightn't there be a little something for environmental health, too? O:-)
Here's hoping it's straightforward from here on ...
* - assuming he has any, which is presumably also a legal requirement for private landlords.
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It's a legal requirement that landlords are registered and insured. He's not registered, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's not insured. I got the impression he thinks his architectural expertise means he's either immune to problems or can sort them himself. I'd love to know what happens when lettings catch up with him.
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I'd love to know what happens when lettings catch up with him.
Yup. And your insurers, too! In my very limited experience, if the water's come from the upstairs flat, the owner's liable.
(This was certainly the case when Dr RJ and I arrived home from a Christams visit some years ago to find that the police had broken into our rented flat to let a plumber stop a leak that had brought down the ceiling in the flat below. The leak turned out to be an incredibly slow seep from - I think - one of the washing machine hoses, that had got under the floorboards and into all the ashy Victorian sound-proofing between those and the ceiling below. It had probably taken years for things to get that bad. Anyhow - our landlord just said: "That's why I have insurance" and it all got sorted out ...).
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All the deafening between the upstairs floor and my ceiling is soaked and rotten. I dread to think of the state of the joists. It's obviously been going on for months, if not years.
Landlord sounds like a right knobend. Still, it's good your insurers are up for letting your friendly contractors do the work, at least you won't have to worry about them as well.
I know, I'm so relieved.
And I've asked our housing guys to check that the owner wasn't on our list of approved architects cos he's clearly a top bellend. He's not. I don't think he ever will be now!
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It's the flat dwellers nightmare. The flat below me has had it's ceiling down twice. Water seepage from a bad joint in my concrete balcony.
Barrrats also used inadequate guttering and downpipes when they renovated the place and the balcony became a swimming pool in bad weather
Luckily that's external so comes under the building insurance for the entire block rather than myself being liable. It wasn't until we got rid of the useless management company that it was fixed though.
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Alistair and Kenny have just been out. Half my bathroom ceiling and half my bathroom floor are rotten through, and the entire bathroom has to be ripped out, made good and put back together and I'll probably have to move out while it's done.
And the thing I'm most upset about is my beautiful matt white bathroom tiles which are the only tiles I have ever seen that I really like and they're all going to have to come off.
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That's crummy. At least you can trust the guys who are doing the work - they have reasons to ensure they do a good job.
+1 Mrs Pingu. Let the insurers perform the knobectomy.
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Oh dear, floor too, I take it that because it's been running down the outside wall - does that mean that your downstairs neighbours will have a rotten ceiling as well?
Lots of hugs Kirst :-*
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Feel for you, Kirst.
Angry that you're having to go thru all this because of other people's selfishness and incompetence >:(
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Oh dear, floor too, I take it that because it's been running down the outside wall - does that mean that your downstairs neighbours will have a rotten ceiling as well?
Lots of hugs Kirst :-*
Probably. I need to go and talk to them about it. It'll have to wait till tomorrow.
I eventually got into work about half past ten, and I just sat with my head on the desk and whimpered until it was time to leave for Christmas lunch. I told my boss that was what I was doing, and she said that was fine. :D Yes, I'll have a lovely new bathroom at the end of it, with skirting board that goes all the way to the end of the wall instead of finishing about a foot short, and the decorating will be of professional standard rather than my pisspoor efforts, and it'll all be better, but that's not the point. >:( :'(
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And the thing I'm most upset about is my beautiful matt white bathroom tiles which are the only tiles I have ever seen that I really like and they're all going to have to come off.
Get the chaps to take a few off now, go around the tile dealers and see if they can match them. Or find something you like more, after all, _you_ aren't going to pay for them.
You've been dealt a crap hand, try and make it work for you as much as possible.
Hugs'n'stuff :-*
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I am considering insisting that they cover every available surface with either solid silver sheets, or Fired Earth £300 per square inch tiles, just so cockwomble the owner has to cough up.
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I am considering insisting that they cover every available surface with either solid silver sheets, or Fired Earth £300 per square inch tiles, just so cockwomble the owner has to cough up.
Solid silver is a little vulgar, that's so not you......
And the nicest flat you can find if you have to move out for a while, with a big jacuzzi, and enough room for a party :demon:
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The Borough Hotel Edinburgh,Restuarant,Bar,Contemporary,Boutique Hotel Accommodation (http://theboroughhotel.com/) is very nice and not far from me. That would do. And you could all come round for cocktails every night.
I'm gutted about my bathroom tiles. I am very particular about tiles - I hate patterned tiles, and glossy ones give me the heebie-jeebies. Mine are beautiful matt white ones and across the middle of the wall there's a row of them but with chrome insets in the middle. That one row of 20 tiles cost me more than the entire wall of plain tiles, but they're so worth it.
They're going to have to remove all the existing fittings (which I'm not fussed about - the bath was £25 ex-display from Homebase, the basin is a teeny tiny wash-hand basin the fitters managed to source at wholesale price for me because nothing bigger will fit (the bathroom's only 10'7" by 3'1") and the toilet is a corner toilet fitted to a false bulkhead at the end of the bath. If the stuff breaks when it's removed, which it often does, it'll need to be replaced. They'll have to rebuild the ceiling and the floor then relay the floor (my lovely white sparkly Amtico tiles will have to go and be replaced - with new sparkly white Amtico tiles), and paint and decorate and tile and fit a new light fitting, and then bath, shower over it, toilet and sink, and my very expensive bathroom mirror with integral lights and I will kill them if they break that, and they can fit a new skirting-board which actually goes right to the end of the wall, and they might as well put a shaving socket in while they're there. And they can box the boiler pipes in too, and do a new neutral board for my fuse box as well. Although I doubt I can say that was affected by water seeing as it's at the other end of the flat.
I will have a much nicer bathroom than the botch job with occasional fantastic bits (tiles, floor, mirror) surrounded by crapness I have now, but I'm not yet able to look on the bright side.
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10'7" by 3'1" Luxury !
I've got a toilet, shower tray with curtain and washbasin in a room that's about 4'x4' !
When I moved in it was a disgusting coral pink :sick: I replaced it with white floor, soft, dove grey tiles on the walls and a matching suite. It was only after I'd finished it that I realised that it was the same grey that BT were using on their vans at the time....! Talk about brainwashed...
It's a nice , neutral scheme and I've alternated between pink and blue for shower curtains and mats.
Wish I had a bigger one though .... ;)
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A corner toilet??
You need to take pictures of how awful it is, just to make sure you get an extra warm fuzzy glow when it's all lovely and shiny and new and dry and fixed.
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When I moved in here, the bathroom was a sickly seagreen and navy blue - not great for a tiny room that doesn't get much light. And it was all woodchip. I spent weeks of my life stripping woodchip from this flat.
At the moment I have one long wall and one short wall, and the floor and ceiling and woodwork in white, and the other long wall is a really nice pink, not too girly and not sickly. I'd like to keep a lot of white to maximise the light, but maybe I'll go for one turquoise wall. Maybe I'll mirror the wall instead! And the floor! And go for black grout between the mirror tiles for an 80s-tastic disco vibe, and I'll put my glitterball in there instead of the kitchen.
I think the cocodamol is getting to me.
I have no choice but to have a corner toilet. There's no way to get a non-corner toilet in. The room's just too narrow.
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. Maybe I'll mirror the wall instead! And the floor!
Mmmmmmm.......Mirrors...... :demon:
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I went and got an Amtico brochure this afternoon and I am wondering if I would like a silver floor.
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will you be asking that bloke from Take That what his floor finish preferences are? :demon:
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He won't have time to worry about the floor colour.
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Something warm, soft and easily cleanable then.... ;)
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I'm not sure I want a floor made of skin.
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I've just checked that my insurance company will pay for alternative accommodation while I can't be here, and it will, so I am wondering if I can get them to just give me cash and I will go to Morocco or somewhere hot on a cheap deal while the work goes on.
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I went and got an Amtico brochure this afternoon and I am wondering if I would like a silver floor.
Have you had Amtico before ? We've got it in kitchen and bathroom. The kitchen ones have a structured 'slate' finish that seems very hard wearing. The bathroom ones have a smooth finish (kind of pearl like) that doesn't ! It seems to be very prone to scratching. Moral of the story is when you send off to Amtico for your samples, don't just check how well the colour works, try a quick 'scratch' test too.
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My current bathroom floor is Amtico Stardust in white and I love it. It hasn't really scratched as I rarely go in in outdoor shoes. I love the floor when it's clean but it needs cleaning every day if it's going to stay looking fabulous, so most of the time it just looks mucky.
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10'7" by 3'1" Luxury !
I've got a toilet, shower tray with curtain and washbasin in a room that's about 4'x4' !
Same here. We actually shrunk the door opening from 27" to a wheelchair-hostile 24" in order to fit the shower tray against the same wall, and also had to lose the pull-cord lightswitch (it's now on the outside, siamesed with the hall lightswitch).
I think it's actually 4 1/2" square. There is a 760 x 760mm shower tray, a midi-sized basin and a full-sized bog. To make matters worse, the soil pipe also goes through that room, as does rather a lot of plumbing. It's all behind the WC, which has a cistern design entirely supported by the pan so it doesn't have to be fastened to the false wall.
Being so small has its advantages; wipe the shower out after using it and the extractor fan has the room bone dry in a few minutes.
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Our first house had a bathroom that had almost no floorspace, and an especially small bath. More like a hip bath.
The one in this house is so vast you can see the curvature of the earth. It's mind-buggeringly cold in there though...
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Insurance inspectors are coming tomorrow between 8-12, but they'll phone an hour beforehand to tell me when, so I can at least go to work for a while.
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Insurance bloke confirms whole lot will have to come out and be redone. He'll get his report to the insurance company within the hour. Then I just have to wait 7-10 days for them to get back to me with a decision. :(
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Our first house had a bathroom that had almost no floorspace, and an especially small bath. More like a hip bath.
The one in this house is so vast you can see the curvature of the earth. It's mind-buggeringly cold in there though...
So it'll be bigger than ours, which I think is pretty much a 4m cube.
We do have a damp patch too, but only when it rains heavily and the wind is in a certain direction.
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Oh, there's going to be a battle. He's quoting me £60 for retiling. The current tiles cost £580 and I'll be damned if I settle for anything less nice than I've got now - good job I've kept the receipt.
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!
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Our first house had a bathroom that had almost no floorspace, and an especially small bath. More like a hip bath.
The one in this house is so vast you can see the curvature of the earth. It's mind-buggeringly cold in there though...
So it'll be bigger than ours, which I think is pretty much a 4m cube.
We do have a damp patch too, but only when it rains heavily and the wind is in a certain direction.
You should stand with your back to the wind.
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!
He's recommending 3 metres square of tiles, my contractors are recommending 20. My tile receipt says I bought 216 tiles 200x250mm but I can't work out how many metres square that is because I have no brain for maths.
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!
He's recommending 3 metres square of tiles, my contractors are recommending 20. My tile receipt says I bought 216 tiles 200x250mm but I can't work out how many metres square that is because I have no brain for maths.
10.8 sqm
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depends on how thick the grout is!
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3 sq m doesn't seem like very much.... tightwad.
That's only 60 of your tiles!
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10.8 sqm
Thank you.
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So it'll be bigger than ours, which I think is pretty much a 4m cube.
Bigger in 2 dimensions. Hard to stand up if you're much taller than 1.9 m though :)
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I've got the quote in from my contractors. The quote is for
- Plumber: Isolate all water supplies to bathroom. Carefully remove bath, wc, basin,shower and radiator. We will where possible re-use these items.Blank of water supply pipes to bathroom.After all works complete, refit all of the above.
- Joiner: Strip out water damaged lowered ceiling. Strip out original lathe/plaster ceiling.Strip out deafening boards and deafening.Strip out water damaged flooring and expose joists for re-survey.Once bathroom dry, fit new deafening and boards.Plasterboard ceiling and skim coat plaster.Frame and lower ceiling then plasterboard and skim.Renew T/groove 29mm floor under bath and plywood all bathroom floor.Fit bath panels once bath fitted.
- Plasterer: Strip all wall ties from window and shower walls.Strip plaster back to brick on these 2 walls (approx 20m2).Skim coat plaster ceiling. Undercoat plaster and build out.Skim coat plaster to a finish.
- Tiler: Tile walls, window, shower wall. Fully grout and silicone to a finish. Painter: Paint walls and woodwork (2 coats).
- Labourer: Remove all rubbish to authorised landfill site. Keep site tidy.
Bearing in mind that for some reason they've quoted for 20m of wall tiles rather than 11 and haven't quoted for new flooring, which I will chase up in the new year, do you want to guess how much the quote is? As a hint for you, a usual price for converting a bathroom with bath into a wetfloor shower room by removing the bath, forming the floor, doing the shower and tiling usually comes in between £3.5k-£5.5k.
Later on I will post photos so you can see the rot.
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I'll open the bidding with "more than a very expensive bicycle"
Kirst, I hope this gets sorted soonest and with the least hassle for you.
You don't need this.
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Guess the quote: to you £free.
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I'll open the bidding with "more than a very expensive bicycle"
Kirst, I hope this gets sorted soonest and with the least hassle for you.
You don't need this.
How expensive is a very expensive bicycle? I only have a not very expensive one.
I was speaking to the contractors today and he was saying that once they've got it all ripped out it needs to dry - and that could take anything from a couple of days to a couple of months. Doom. Gah.
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Can they stick a dehumidifier in?
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I think that's the plan, but it could still take yonks. No guesses for the quote?
£7600 +VAT = £8930.
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£7600 +VAT = £8930.
That was my second guess. ::-) Although my first one is also correct.
PS Is the above before or after a sharp intake of breath over the teeth?
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Figures - you're not so much getting a new bathroom fitted, as a new room built, and then a bathroom fitted in it! So £500 on replacing your tiles isn't such a huge chunky, relatively....
(You can tell I'd make a rubbish inswerance assesor, eh?)
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I think that's the plan, but it could still take yonks. No guesses for the quote?
£7600 +VAT = £8930.
So more than an expensive bicycle, (http://www.evanscycles.com/products/cannondale/super-six-hi-mod-super-record-2010-road-bike-ec020252) more like an extremely expensive bicycle (http://www.evanscycles.com/products/cannondale/super-six-hi-mod-ultimate-2010-road-bike-ec020251)
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Well, I know how much they charge for doing a wetfloor shower in a bathroom, and they're undercutting lots of other companies all the time (one of the others we use was complaining that they were losing £1000 profit on every job and SCB are still undercutting them), and this will involve much more work, so I think it's probably a fair price.
Hole in my suspended ceiling revealing the minging ceiling above
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230001.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230004.jpg)
See how wet the wood is in the bottom right?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230010.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230011.jpg)
See the fungus?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230012.jpg)
And the floor is rotting beneath my lovely Amtico tiles
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230013.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/Flossiesdoll/Random%20stuff/2009_12230014.jpg)
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:( :(
Repeat after me:
I'm not paying, I'm not paying, I'm not paying.........
Then go and get drunk...
Be careful in your dealings with the insurance company, they are sharks, they employ people who's entire purpose is not to give you money....... I used to work for one before I joined BT.....
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3rd attempt:
3 metres square is not the same as 3 square metres.
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I'm a maths dunce and I admit it.
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...more like an extremely expensive bicycle (http://www.evanscycles.com/products/cannondale/super-six-hi-mod-ultimate-2010-road-bike-ec020251)
I liked the first "review" on t'Evans site:
My dear old gran needed something to get to the shops and back so I saved up the pennies and got her one of these. At first she was angry and accused me of pandering to an industry which has turned simple and efficient transport for the working masses into an overpriced style icon. However she has now changed her tune and is the envy of all her friends!
:) ::-)
Hope it gets sorted out as painlessly as possible Kirst.
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Have you shown those photos to the upstairs landlord yet?
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No, I have written to him advising him of the assessment by my contractors and the insurance assessor and telling him he'd better bloody well make sure my contractors have access to the upstairs flat if they need it, and I will be in touch in due course about the excess on my policy. I don't have email for him so I can't email him the pics. My colleagues talked me out of finishing the letter with "ya cunt ye."
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I've had a letter today from Beachcroft LLP, who are solicitors acting for my insurance company. It's their job to recover my insurance company's costs from the bloke upstairs, or his insurance company if he has one. I will probably have to give a witness statement and might have to go to court. I've also got to give them a list of all my non-insured costs that I will incur as a result of this. The guy who's dealing with me isn't in till Monday so I've just emailed him all the info. And I've booked Wednesday next week as annual leave so I can trek round tile shops. :-\
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Alistair and Kenny have just been out. Half my bathroom ceiling and half my bathroom floor are rotten through, and the entire bathroom has to be ripped out, made good and put back together and I'll probably have to move out while it's done.
And the thing I'm most upset about is my beautiful matt white bathroom tiles which are the only tiles I have ever seen that I really like and they're all going to have to come off.
Oooh! Oooh!
My bathroom wall tiles came from Bathroom Planet in Edinburgh which doesn't exist any more, so I emailed the Aberdeen and Elgin shops to ask if they still had any of the same, or if they could get them - can't find any by googling. They've just emailed me back to say they'll get one of their sales reps to contact me, which isn't great, but is a lot better than "no, no chance."
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Those pics are hideous. Hope the mould spores aren't making you ill :(
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They've just emailed me back to say they'll get one of their sales reps to contact me, which isn't great, but is a lot better than "no, no chance."
Plus the sales rep could be a Chris Hoy lookalike!
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And maybe he'll have rainlegs!
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Our office was closed today because the boiler is broken so we were all sent off and told to work from another building or from home. I had tomorrow booked as annual leave for looking round tile shops, so I agreed I'd use today as annual leave instead and go in tomorrow. So I've spent the afternoon trekking round Homebase, Ceramic Tile Warehouse (where inspiration comes in boxes), Tile Clearing House, some other place I don't know the name of and Victor Paris. I didn't make it to CTD, Collinson Ceramics, Edinburgh Ceramics or Original Tile Company, and I did make it to Ceramic Tile Centre but they were shut.
I spent £17 on 9 tester paints in Homebase, only for 5 of them to turn to institution green on the wall, and I've seen more hideous tiles than I could shake a stick at. But I think I've found some I can live with, I just need to decide which of the 3 plain white matt tiles and 2 metallic borders I prefer.
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They're refusing to pay out. They say there's a general exclusion cause in the policy which means they don't have to pay out for anything they call "gradual damage." So even though the gradual damage was invisible until it became so severe it was dripping through the ceiling, and I had no way of knowing what was happening, they're refusing to pay. Even though the bloke upstairs was negligent and they'll be able to pursue him for their costs, they're refusing my claim. Apparently I'm supposed to have been able to see my ceiling rotting through the suspended ceiling and I'm supposed to have been able to see my floor rotting under the tiles.
I have lodged a complaint with their complaints department and I will pursue it as far as I can, but if they don't cough up I'm going to have to pursue the flat owner for the costs, which will almost certainly mean going to court. I'm using my union's free legal advice - waiting for them to phone me back tomorrow - to find out what my options are with ZURICH CUNTING INSURANCE and to find out what my options are re the owner of upstairs. If I can't get ZURICH BASTARD INSURANCE to pay up, I'm going to have to either remortgage, get the work done and pay for somewhere else to live while it goes on (which could be anything from 3 weeks to 3 months depending on how long it takes to dry out) and then sue the arse off cockwomble upstairs, or I'm going to have to sue the arse off cockwomble upstairs and then use the money to put it right and pay for alternative accommodation.
I can't stop crying.
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Can you just slaughter all concerned ? That might solve the temporary accommodation issue too, after they catch you.
Commiserations, Kirst. That's a real sod.
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They're refusing to pay out. They say there's a general exclusion cause in the policy which means they don't have to pay out for anything they call "gradual damage." So even though the gradual damage was invisible until it became so severe it was dripping through the ceiling, and I had no way of knowing what was happening, they're refusing to pay. Even though the bloke upstairs was negligent and they'll be able to pursue him for their costs, they're refusing my claim. Apparently I'm supposed to have been able to see my ceiling rotting through the suspended ceiling and I'm supposed to have been able to see my floor rotting under the tiles.
I have lodged a complaint with their complaints department and I will pursue it as far as I can, but if they don't cough up I'm going to have to pursue the flat owner for the costs, which will almost certainly mean going to court. I'm using my union's free legal advice - waiting for them to phone me back tomorrow - to find out what my options are with ZURICH CUNTING INSURANCE and to find out what my options are re the owner of upstairs. If I can't get ZURICH BASTARD INSURANCE to pay up, I'm going to have to either remortgage, get the work done and pay for somewhere else to live while it goes on (which could be anything from 3 weeks to 3 months depending on how long it takes to dry out) and then sue the arse off cockwomble upstairs, or I'm going to have to sue the arse off cockwomble upstairs and then use the money to put it right and pay for alternative accommodation.
I can't stop crying.
The clause is common to nearly all policies, and I would have half expected it. Your course of action will indeed be to sue the bloke above for the damage. Small claims court if under £5000, but he'll probably pay up before it gets that far.
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Oh Kirst!
:(
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Kirst, here's a virtual Kleenex. There, there.
It can't be as bad as that.
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The clause is common to nearly all policies, and I would have half expected it. Your course of action will indeed be to sue the bloke above for the damage. Small claims court if under £5000, but he'll probably pay up before it gets that far.
Why the fuck can't the insurance company sue him? My guys' quote is just under 9 grand so that's 3x what the small claims courts in Scotland will deal with, and that's just for doing the work, it doesn't cover alternative accommodation or any other expenses. I'm asking other companies for estimates too so I can present him with 3.
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Get a solicitor? I know a property lawyer.
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The clause is common to nearly all policies, and I would have half expected it. Your course of action will indeed be to sue the bloke above for the damage. Small claims court if under £5000, but he'll probably pay up before it gets that far.
Why the fuck can't the insurance company sue him? My guys' quote is just under 9 grand so that's 3x what the small claims courts in Scotland will deal with, and that's just for doing the work, it doesn't cover alternative accommodation or any other expenses. I'm asking other companies for estimates too so I can present him with 3.
Commiserations, Kirst, that's shitty.
Does the insurance policy provide legal protection (i.e. to cover costs of suing upstairs)?
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The clause is common to nearly all policies, and I would have half expected it. Your course of action will indeed be to sue the bloke above for the damage. Small claims court if under £5000, but he'll probably pay up before it gets that far.
Why the fuck can't the insurance company sue him? My guys' quote is just under 9 grand so that's 3x what the small claims courts in Scotland will deal with, and that's just for doing the work, it doesn't cover alternative accommodation or any other expenses. I'm asking other companies for estimates too so I can present him with 3.
When our old fridge flooded our kitchen, warping the floor, the loss adjuster tried to reject the claim. It's their default response, I'm afraid.*
In your shoes, I'd probably not accept the insurer's first offer either. The FSA ombudsman is also a useful tool in insurance disputes. Possibly you won't want to fork out fees for a solicitor...but this is a regulated industry and the insurers have to deal fairly with you.
I'd advise going through the policy wording carefully and offering your own interpretation, if reasonable to do so, back to them.
HTH
Geoff
*(sorry if anyone here's in the insurance industry - if so, I'm sure you'll be the fair and helpful exception). Oh and they did pay up, after a short exchange of e-mails.
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I have a friend who knows about bit about it and he's going to email me some stuff to try with them, the knobbers.
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Kirst, that is really shitty.
It is crap like this that, as far as I am concerned, puts the insurance industry right up there with the other low life scum.
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Oh fugwumps.
Keep pushing the insurance company - they are a business and won't pay out unless they absolutely have to.
Have a big hug from Anne and I in the meantime, and keep your chin up.
(http://parkes1.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/hug-1.jpg)
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Expletives fail me.... >:( That's awful.
Big hugs
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Fingers crossed this is just an initial negotiating position for them and you'll be able to get them to move from it. You could always threaten to blacken their name on Watchdog or some such.
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I have only just looked into this thread. What a horrible situation Kirst. I can't offer any better advice that other have already but good luck with it and I hope you keep your chin up.
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Tomorrow I will put my fighting trousers on and let them have it.
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That's more like it
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I hope your fighting trousers work magic on them and it gets sorted out.
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Sorry you've had to suffer this sort of shit from an insurance company Kirst.
Kick ass girl. ;)
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Rotters!
Tomorrow I will put my fighting trousers on and let them have it.
Yay! Go Kirst!
Kick ass girl. ;)
That as well.
But, in the meantime:
{{Hugs}}
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Sorry to read of this, Kirst. I imagine that the potential cost has fully dawned on them and now they'll make some attempts to avoid paying out. I'd like to think you have good arguments in your favour and that it will work out for you. It is not as if they won't (eventually) recover the money from twat-features upstairs in any case ::-)
Bastards.
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Tomorrow I will put my fighting trousers on and let them have it.
Fighting trousers?
You need:
Rainlegs! (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27937.75)
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Oh, you poor thing Kirsrt. That's really rotten. Make em all wish they were dead. >:(
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Sorry to read of this, Kirst. I imagine that the potential cost has fully dawned on them and now they'll make some attempts to avoid paying out. I'd like to think you have good arguments in your favour and that it will work out for you. It is not as if they won't (eventually) recover the money from twat-features upstairs in any case ::-)
Bastards.
Oh, they're also saying the quote my guys did is extortionate anyway, which is bollocks. They're just fuckwits and cockwombles.
Rainlegs, I'll rainlegs 'em till they cry for mercy.
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Tomorrow I will put my fighting trousers on and let them have it.
Go Girl :thumbsup:
In the meantime I'll just add to the {hugs}
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A refusal to pay out on a substantial claim is insurance company standard practice and should be viewed as just an opening offer in an ongoing process. They rely on people being upset/traumatised and not persuing them because there is too much other stuff going on and you think it's easier to give up.
NEVER GIVE UP. NEVER TAKE NO FOR A FINAL ANSWER.
They took your money as a gamble that they would get to keep all of it and you would never claim it back. THIS TIME THEY LOST and they don't like it.
Gradual damage my arse. You can bet that if it had happened really suddenly they would have tried 'non-disclosure', their favourite spurious get-out clause. The bunch of total cockwombling shysters at Norwich Union tried to get out of paying my SIL's critial illness cover on those grounds - a completely blatant attempt to scam her out of the payout. She got the money, OH YES, plus interest paid from the day of her claim.
Good luck!
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And politely inform Zurich by recorded delivery that if they refuse to pay for the repairs and your out of pocket expenses you plan to terminate the Insurance Policy, not bother with the Pension Plan you were considering, report them to the Ombudsmen, inform the Newspapers of their despicable attitude and sue them for the money plus all legal expenses. The person above is their problem not yours.
They have already agreed to pay the costs I believe, by letter hopefully, and a Contract is a Contract and trying to escape deviously is not acceptable. Let a Judge decide I think.
Best of luck.
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Can they *prove* that all the damage was caused incrementally, and not by a leak that's only been there for a week or two?
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Can they *prove* that all the damage was caused incrementally, and not by a leak that's only been there for a week or two?
I'm not going to attempt to try that - it's obvious the damage is long term. And I shouldn't have to lie.
Today I am over the crying and well into a raging fury. I have decided that my new motto is "I will fight whoever it takes for as long as it takes and they will RUE THE DAY."
So, yesterday we had agreed that a supervisor would phone me back at work after 12.30pm. At 3pm I phoned them and the supervisor told me that she was sorry she hadn't phoned, they'd been really busy. Anyway, she told me a load of crap about I should have reported the damage earlier (before I'd noticed it, presumably) and we agreed that I was making a formal complaint and that from now on their complaints team would handle it. Their complaints team will phone me back before close of business on Monday. I asked for their phone number and was told they weren't allowed to give it to me. It seems Zurich are more protective of their own details than of ours. Zurich loses financial details of 51,000 UK customers - 22 Oct 2009 - Computing (http://www.computing.co.uk/computing/news/2251829/zurich-loses-financial-details)
Then I got home and found a message from the same supervisor left at about quarter to one this afternoon asking me to ring them. So when she said she hadn't had time to ring me, she'd lied. What she should have said was she'd phoned me at home instead of work because she's an idiot.
Anyway, I am arranging estimates from 2 other companies, just in case I do have to go to court with the owner of upstairs, and meanwhile I have contacted trading standards, Customer Direct and my MSP and have left a voicemail for an MP I know, asking him to help me out before he goes to prison for fiddling his expenses - he hasn't phoned me back, strangely. And my lovely boss brought me a bunch of tulips and some chocolate, and lots of people have said they'll give written statements saying they've been to my flat and used my bathroom and never noticed any water damage.
It's not the first time some bloke's dodgy plumbing has left me to deal with a nasty wet patch, but this is beyond belief.
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It's not the first time some bloke's dodgy plumbing has left me to deal with a nasty wet patch, but this is beyond belief.
But you promised not too tell anyone :o
;D
Would it be worth talking to the Citizens Advice Bureau to see if they have any suggestions ? Or posting on one of the finance forums to see if anyone there could offer advice ? i.e. http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.html?f=21 (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.html?f=21)
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Today I am over the crying and well into a raging fury. I have decided that my new motto is "I will fight whoever it takes for as long as it takes and they will RUE THE DAY."
Ace :)
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Today I am over the crying and well into a raging fury. I have decided that my new motto is "I will fight whoever it takes for as long as it takes and they will RUE THE DAY."
Ace :)
Tomorrow I will put my fighting trousers on and let them have it.
She Will Fight Them In Her Breeches..... ;)
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Go for it Kirst. I hope your decision to show them that might is NOT right meets with the success you deserve.
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Yes, give them hell Kirst.
We're with you all the way, in spirit at least :thumbsup:
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...my MSP ...
You can take your pick of 1 constituency or 6 list MSPs. Right up Margo MacDonald's street, I'd have thunk?
Good luck ...
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It was Margo I contacted, because I know her a bit and she's great.
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*considers writing to the Sunday Post helpdesk page thing*
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If you're motivated enough Kirst, do it. If you kick from every angle a few blows eventually get through.
Good luck.
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If you're motivated enough Kirst, do it.
Well, I've got nothing to lose, so why not? I draw the line at News of the Screws Captain Cash though.
Today's action will be complaining to the inspection company that they failed to perform their part of it with reasonable skill or care. They're saying that it was obvious the floor was rotting because the tiles were lifting, but actually one tile had been lifted by me/Garry to inspect the floor. Until that was lifted the rotting floor couldn't be seen. I think that's a fairly fundamental cockup on their part.
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I have contacted Rok, who are the company who did the inspection. I have lodged a formal complaint about their assessor, on the grounds that he did not take reasonable care or skill in conducting the assessment and has made claims which are not true. They have passed it to their complaints team for investigation, and they have notified Zurich that I am contesting the assessment.
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Oh Kirst, just seen this and it's awful. Fingers crossed if you kick up a big enough stink they will realise it's cheaper just to cough up, bastards. More Power to your elbow, and lots of hugs x
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Just seen this thread. I'm so sorry to hear about your hassles. Go get 'em!
If a dehuminifier is required, it'll probably be running for ages. Read your electricity meter before and after and include the costs in your claim. A friend of mine ran up just about £100 in electricity whilst their house was being dried out after a flood. That's just about all I can add to the good advice offered so far.
Best of luck.
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I think that they were probably happy to honour the claim until they realised how big it's going to be and now they're trying to find any way they can of getting out of it.
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I reckon you are right on the money there Kirst
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Are you able to email the people at Zurich at all? Because if it does go to court it's really useful to have a written record of everything, and having a billion emails all beginning "I write further to our earlier conversation and to confirm that..." does help. Also, there is a chance that they will get so sick of you that they settle to shut you up.
If you can't email them then keep a note of everyone you speak to, what they say, and all failures to call back etc.
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I don't know if they have email, it's all been done by phone so far - and they refused to give me the phone number of the complaints team, and said it'd be a tenner to send me the inspector's report!
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I don't know if they have email, it's all been done by phone so far - and they refused to give me the phone number of the complaints team, and said it'd be a tenner to send me the inspector's report!
Spend the tenner and get a copy. Then make them pay it back when you force them to cave in.
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Zurich will not give you their e-mail address but you can fax them. The fax number is usually shown on their letters and documents.
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Keep plugging away at them. My neighbours had a problem with a leaking pipe in their house - the cold water feed into the house developed a very small leak which over several months soaked the whole of the downstairs of the house resulting in replastering, new flooring, new kitchen and redecorating the whole of the downstairs. Their insurance paid for it all and the leak was not a rapid one, but had been going on for weeks or months when they discovered it. I don't know who their insurers where, but I bet that just about all policies have a similar wording. Good luck with it and don't let them grind you down.
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Commiserations Kirst. You're doing all the right things.
The complaints email address should be zurich.connect.claims@uk.zurich.com. A copy to chiefexecutive@uk.zurich.com wouldn't hurt either.
What you should do is send a letter by recorded delivery but also email it to them. In your complaint letter, make sure you list clearly and in full detail the full history and the idiotic responses from Zurich.
:-*
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Formal complaint emailed today
Dear Sir or Madam
Ref
During the evening of 15/12/09 I noticed water dripping through my suspended ceiling into the bath. I called out a contractor to assist and we took down part of the suspended ceiling to reveal that the true ceiling was running with water, rotting, and growing mould and fungus. When we went to the flat upstairs, we found that the toilet overflow pipe wasn't connected to anything, and the bathroom sink waste pipe wasn't connected to the drain and was draining into his floor/my ceiling.
I contacted Zurich the next day, 16th December and notified you of the above. During that call I notified you that it was obvious that the problem was longstanding. I was advised that my choices were to fix the problem myself, use your team or use my own contractor. I elected to use my own contractor and was asked to provide one estimate, which I did. During my contractor's inspection visit, they lifted a couple of the floor tiles to reveal that the floor is also rotting. We realised that the repair work required was going to be significant so I contacted Zurich again and notified you of this. You agreed to send out someone from Rok, and Jim Crawford visited 22nd December. I did not think his inspection was thorough and emailed Rok afterwards to express my concern. They did not reply.
After Christmas I received a letter from your legal team, Beachcroft, dated 22nd December 09, advising me that they would be pursuing the owner of the flat upstairs to recover your outlay in settlement of my claim and to pursue any uninsured losses I may incur. I emailed Beachcroft in response.
Last week, after some chasing by me, Rok contacted me on 13/01/10 to advise that Zurich have decided to reject my claim on the grounds that the damage is gradual and I should have reported it sooner. Apparently Jim Crawford has advised Rok that I should have noticed the rotting floor because the tiles were lifted. I have instigated a formal complaint with them as I believe he has not used reasonable care or skill in his assessment - if he had, he would know that the only reason the rotting floor is visible is because the tiles were lifted by my contractor in order to inspect the floor. Until that time, the rotting floor was not visible. Of course, the rotting ceiling was not visible either as it was hidden by the suspended ceiling. I can provide statements from a number of people confirming that the damage was not visible throughout last year.
I believe that it is neither fair nor reasonable to reject my claim on the grounds that the damage should have been reported sooner, when it is obvious that the damage was not visible. I had no way of knowing the damage was occurring. It is unreasonable to expect me to lift fixed floor tiles every week to check that nothing's rotting underneath, and it is unreasonable to expect me to remove my suspended ceiling every week to check nothing is rotting above. I believe it is unreasonable to notify me one month after I first contacted you that you are rejecting my claim on grounds of gradual damage, when I notified you that the damage was long-term during the first call to you. You were aware that the damage was long-term from the 16th of December and you went ahead with the claims procedure; I consider that to mean that you accept the claim. The letter from Beachcroft further confirms that you have accepted your responsibility to progress my claim.
When the woman from Rok called me on 13th January she mentioned that she thought my contractor's quote was "extortionate." She's wrong, it's a reasonable quote from a reputable, experienced company. Even so, that's not the point. I was asked to get one estimate, and that's what I did. If you had asked me to provide 3 estimates, that's what I would have done.
It seems to me that Zurich was willing to accept responsibility for the claim until you realised what a big job it is, and that now you are seeking to avoid your responsibility by any loophole you can find. That is an unacceptable way to treat a customer. Furthermore, on 13th Jan I agreed with your call centre that a complaints supervisor Monisha would call me back at work after 1230pm on the 14th, and I gave my work number. At 3pm on the 14th I phoned her myself. She apologised for not ringing me, saying she had been too busy. When I got home that night I found a message on my answering machine from her asking me to ring her - that message was left at 12.45pm. It seems that rather than tell me she'd called the wrong number, she lied and said she hadn't called at all.
The fact that your staff are happy to lie about such small stuff does not fill me with hope for how you deal with the big stuff. It's obvious to me that Zurich operates in a corporate culture of dishonesty and deceit. You were notified of the full facts during the first call and to try to reject the claim now is dishonest, unfair and unjustified.
I am currently unable to use my bath as the floor is rotten and the weight of the full bath could cause the floor to collapse. I am also experiencing health problems related to the mould spores which are escaping into the flat, and it is important that the work is done as soon as possible.
This is a formal complaint and I wish it to be treated as such. To settle the complaint, I wish you to confirm by Monday 25th January that you will settle the claim in full, by which I mean issue a cheque for the amount detailed in the quote from Special Care Bathrooms, plus arranging and paying for alternative accommodation for me for as long as is required while the work goes on. Should the removal of the bathroom reveal any further work required, I expect you to pay for that as well. Should you wish to contact me by phone, my work number (normal office hours) is x and my home number is x. It is not acceptable to leave a message for me at home when you know I will be at work.
I await your response.
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A very, very good letter, Kirst.
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Note to self: do not get on the wrong side of Kirst. :thumbsup:
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New to this thread but good luck Kirst, don't take no from these heartless bastards :demon:
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New to this thread but good luck Kirst, don't take no from these heartless bastards :demon:
This ^
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Kirst,
I would send a copy of your e-mail by recorded delivery also.
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Note to self: do not get on the wrong side of Kirst. :thumbsup:
;)
Second company have been round to do another estimate (I'm fighting this on two fronts - battle with insurance company and preparing to take upstairs owner to court) and have more or less confirmed everything the other company said. Unsurprisingly.
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That's a very good letter Kirst. :thumbsup:
Due to the procedures for dealing with complaints set in place by the FSA, in fact realistically Zurich won't agree anything by your deadline of 25th January, as the rules allow them effectively an unlimited time to investigate complaints, although they have to acknowledge receipt "as soon as practical" which really means within 5 days, and then give you an update of progress every 4 weeks, although after 8 weeks if they haven't given you a final response, you can then go to the Ombudsman (although they've got a really big backlog).
Once you get your second estimate, as hopefully that should be a similar figure to your original quote, send it into Zurich.
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Zurich...because shit happenz.
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Zurich...because shit happenz.
And then more shit happenz because they make it.
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(I'm fighting this on two fronts - battle with insurance company and preparing to take upstairs owner to court)
Don't let Zoorick knoow - they'll be more than happy to let you crack on.
Good letter, and good luck!
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When I last spoke to them, Thursday last week, it was agreed that they would pass my verbal complaint to their complaints team who would phone me back by close of business Monday. I emailed them on Monday so I could lay everything out in a logical order for them rather than be the gibbering wreck on the phone they reduce me to. I did not receive a phone call on Monday, or yesterday, or this morning, so I phoned them this afternoon and asked to be put through to complaints. The complaints department weren't answering the phone so the call "tripped to somewhere else" and he said he'd get them to phone me back.
Some bloke called Ashley phoned. He told me he's going to be my complaint handler and he was responding to my email. Funnily enough, the woman I spoke to last week in claims had not passed my complaint on. ::-) He said he would review my complaint and get back to me in the next few days. Half an hour later he phoned back to say he'd started reviewing it, and he thinks Rok have been a bit heavy handed in their interpretation of the policy. He says it's obvious I couldn't have known the damage was occurring and therefore I couldn't have reported it, and he's agreed to look at the claim again. He's not promising they'll honour it, but at least it's a start. He's also still muttering that the estimate is too high so I've agreed to send them more estimates (which I was in the process of getting anyway in case I needed them for court).
So, I'm not out of the woods yet, but it is looking a bit more hopeful.
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Get him to confirm that in writing if you can.
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If he can't/won't,confirm it back to him via e-mail.
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Rok, watch out for them they did the "brilliant" work on our kitchen, so be warned if they are sending men around to fix it.
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No, I've told them I'm using my own contractors.
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Fingers crossed...
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That sounds a bit more hopeful. Hope the rats pay out.
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Phoned them today, they're agreeing it's an unreasonable refusal and they're honouring the claim. I got him to put it in writing via email. We'll still have to argy-bargy about the amount they're prepared to pay vs the estimates, but that's a separate matter.
I feel like a massive weight has been lifted from my shoulders.
The estimates are really bizarre.
SCB who I know are usually reasonably priced - £8900
BoJa who I know are usually expensive - £5000
KS who I don't know very well - written estimate not in yet, verbal £8-10k
Nisbet who I don't know very well - £2665
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:thumbsup: :D Getting there Kirst.
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Phoned them today, they're agreeing it's an unreasonable refusal and they're honouring the claim. I got him to put it in writing via email. We'll still have to argy-bargy about the amount they're prepared to pay vs the estimates, but that's a separate matter.
I feel like a massive weight has been lifted from my shoulders.
Well done, glad to hear your news :thumbsup:
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Good news! :thumbsup:
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That's really great news :thumbsup:
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Great stuff, Kirst, delighted for you. You've handled the whole thing very well.
Best wishes for a speedy settlement now.
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Yes, great news Kirst.
Good luck with getting what you want and respect for the way you've approached it :thumbsup:
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Hurrah
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Hurrah
++
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Very pleased for you, Kirst.
Hope all now continues to go smoothly :)
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Result,you are a star Kirst :thumbsup:
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Glad to hear of your news :)
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Yeah drinks all round!
I take it you won't be sending them the unfeasibly cheapo quote??
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No, I won't. ;D
You've handled the whole thing very well.
You didn't see me sobbing under my desk at work, did you? :D Nor did you hear my endless swearing. Never mind, I'm sure there'll be more to come once the arguing about the settlements start. Now, where shall I ask them to accommodate me during the work? I quite fancy Borough.
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That's a real breakthrough. Imagine if you made them go through all that hassle at renewals time. I wonder if Zurich will get your business next time?
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Well done Kirst. If they have any sense whatsoever they will let you dictate the rest of the procedures. I know I would. ;)
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I wonder if Zurich will get your business next time?
There's more chance of me doing the Tour of East Lothian on a fixed tandem.
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Very well done.
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There's more chance of me doing the Tour of East Lothian on a fixed tandem.
I'm sure someone here has one that you can borrow. ;D
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That's fantastic news Kirst :).
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Phoned them today, they're agreeing it's an unreasonable refusal and they're honouring the claim. I got him to put it in writing via email. We'll still have to argy-bargy about the amount they're prepared to pay vs the estimates, but that's a separate matter.
I feel like a massive weight has been lifted from my shoulders.
Yay-phew!
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Phoned them today, they're agreeing it's an unreasonable refusal and they're honouring the claim. I got him to put it in writing via email. We'll still have to argy-bargy about the amount they're prepared to pay vs the estimates, but that's a separate matter.
I feel like a massive weight has been lifted from my shoulders.
The estimates are really bizarre.
SCB who I know are usually reasonably priced - £8900
BoJa who I know are usually expensive - £5000
KS who I don't know very well - written estimate not in yet, verbal £8-10k
Nisbet who I don't know very well - £2665
I'm sure you will, but get written itemised quotes from all of them, then go through with a fine tooth comb making sure each quote is like-for-like - at the moment I'm pretty sure they wont be. You could even ask one of the friendly contractors to help you....
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KTS estimate is £9300. Waiting for Boland Jarret to revise theirs to ensure it includes everything, and still waiting for MBS to send theirs. Building companies - not so good with the writing.
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Bloody Boland Jarrett still haven't sent me the revised estimate, really pissed off. So I got another company to come round this morning, and another one tomorrow.
Meanwhile, today I got home to find a letter from the owner of the flat upstairs. It's really weird. It says "I have received a call from Zurich to say that the letter from Beachcroft (Zurich's legal people) which I sent to them has been mislaid. They ask if Beachcroft gets in touch with them direct, quoting reference no blah blah blah they will sort the claim out, as I gather you, like myself, are insured through Zurich."
Right, I understand that we're both insured through the same shitty company, but I have no idea what the rest of the letter is about. Beachcroft wrote to me ages ago advising they'd be pursuing the owner of the flat upstairs to recover Zurich's costs in settling my claim and any of my uninsured losses, but if it turns out we're both insured through the same company, I suppose they'll just have to suck it up. And Beachcroft will have to pursue him privately for my uninsured losses. But I have no idea what he's on about.
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Yesterday I got a letter and two voicemail messages asking me to ring the loss adjusters to make an appointment for them to come round and adjust my losses.
So I phoned.
I work full time. I've been called for jury service 7th April at the High Court and if I get picked, I could be tied up there for weeks, so it's important to me that the appointment takes place before then. Because nobody can cover for me while I'm away except for dealing with emergencies, I'm trying to get as much as my caseload sorted before then as I can. And we're about to hit the Easter public holidays.
The loss adjusters are on the far side of Glasgow so can't be too precise about timing their visits "because of the traffic." Getting one of the regular and reliable trains doesn't seem to be an option. There is no time at all between now and 7th April where they and I can be here at the same time. This means that if I do get picked for a trial and it's a long one, it will be at least May before my bathroom is sorted. That's 6 months since I first reported the damage.
So I contacted the insurance complaints guy and told him to either find me a loss adjuster in Edinburgh or to just bloody send me a cheque based on any of the five estimates I've sent them. He phoned the loss adjusters and then phoned me back to say there was no way the loss adjuster could fit me in before 7th April so he's going to contact Rok, the shitty company who did the shitty inspection and refused my claim because they're shit, to get them to do an estimate and then will pay out based on their prices. *fumes*
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Rok are coming out on Friday morning. I've asked a pal/colleague who is a housing officer and knows about building stuff to come with me as I'm at the point where I might punch them in the head with a hammer. He can advise me which one to use.
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Take inspiration from The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. An ideal way to deal with the tossers.....
You were must have been very wicked in a previous life to be getting all this grief :-(
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I'm also wicked in this life. :demon:
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Wibble !
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The owner of upstairs has just been round and patronised me, and told me he'll ring my insurance company and tell them what needs done in my flat. I've told him not to bother. >:(
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Rok guy was supposed to be here between 11-12, and my pal Derek arrived about twenty to eleven, brandishing Rok business cards which he found at the bottom of the stair, thinking Rok must have arrived early, and dropped the cards on the way. No, says I, they're not here yet. We looked out of the window and there's the guy in his Rok van driving away. My displeasure was mighty. So, rang the number on the card and he said he'd chapped the door but there was nobody in. My displeasure grew. So he said he'd come back, ten minutes later, still no sign of him so I went downstairs to see if he was anywhere to be found, only to find him at the wrong bloody flat. They'd given him the wrong flat number. Stupid fuckers.
Anyway, he seemed a bit more reasonable. He's pretty clear that their first inspector missed some stuff out, and that the disparity in the costs is because their inspector is working on a best case scenario and my guys are working on a worst case, because we can't see exactly what the damage is until the bathroom is out and everything's stripped back. So he thinks it should be ok if my guys strip it all out then take photos and email them to the insurance company so they can revise their assessment of the damage. He's confirmed I can't stay here while the work goes on and all of that crap, and he'll get the report to Zurich next week.
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Great news. Nearly there now Kirst, I hope it gets sorted soon. What a horrible saga.
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Fingers crossed
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That's good news :thumbsup:
I hope it gets sorted out for you.
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Makes yet another note never to use Zurich for anything. have a happy easter Kirst, may you be submerged in quality chocolate !
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Kirst, we feel for you we had to deal with Rok too when we didn't have a kitchen for a year or so.
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They've offered me £7400 as full and final settlement to include rent for an alternative property while the work goes on. I've just pointed out that a one bedroomed flat will cost me at least £450 pcm and I have no idea how long I'll need it for - might be 2 weeks, might be 2 months. If I can even find someone who'll agree to a short term let, preferably on a week by week basis.
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The bathroom is stripped out. The walls and ceiling aren't as bad as they could have been and they're "drying out nicely" but there's wet rot in the floor. The wet rot man is coming either Friday or Monday to do the treatment, and then by the end of next week it should be ready for them to start rebuilding, so I am hopeful that I can move home by the end of the month. I am also hopeful that I might have a landline and therefore internet in the temporary flat by this time next week.
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I saw this and thought of Kirst ...bathroom revamp goes badly wrong (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/05/17/liverpool-family-left-homeless-after-bathroom-revamp-goes-badly-wrong-100252-26459956/)
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The floor layer came today. He took the toilet out to lay the floor under it, rather than cut the tiles round the toilet. The toilet didn't like that, and broke. I got a phonecall telling me some bit inside it has broken and under no circumstances am I to attempt to flush it using the flush; I have to flush it with a bucket of water. They can get a part and fix it tomorrow. ::-)
What next?
The floor looks great though.
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Oh noooo!
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And now the battle is on for my uninsured losses. In December I got a letter from a legal company called Beachcroft advising me that they'd been appointed by Zurich to deal with claiming against upstairs's insurance to get Zurich's money back, and to claim my uninsured losses for me. I said I'd let him know what my uninsured losses turned out to be at the end of the work.
Then the bloke upstairs told me that he's also insured with Zurich. Zurich have never mentioned this huge conflict of interest throughout the work. I knew, but I didn't let them know, I decided to save it for when I needed it.
Anyway, now the work is finished I decided to contact Beachcroft about my uninsured losses, and yesterday I sent this email
the bathroom work was completed a few weeks ago and I'm ready to think about my uninsured losses. What I've calculated is loss of earnings, plus increase in my premiums because of the claim.
Loss of earnings - I was due to work as a polling clerk on election day for a fee of £152 (payment for the day plus payment for attending training). Because I didn't know where I'd be living on election day, I had to pull out and subsequently was not paid. So that's a loss of £152.
Insurance premiums - it turns out that contents & buildings insurance doesn't work like car insurance. The damage and subsequent claim were not my fault but that isn't taken into account in calculating the next few years' premiums so I will see a rise in my premiums for the next few years, because of the problems caused by upstairs. I've been looking at quote compare sites online and I will be facing a rise of at least £100pa for contents and buildings insurance, so I think £300 should compensate me for that over the next 3 years.
That comes to a total of £452. The excess on my policy is £75 which brings us to £527, and I'd accept £20 as a gesture towards the cost of the numerous lengthy calls I had to make to Zurich, which brings us to £547.
I look forward to hearing from you
Today I got this email from Beachcroft
Thank you for your e-mail.
Zurich Insurance have confirmed that they also insure [bloke upstairs] under a personal lines insurance policy. Due to the potential conflict, Zurich have requested that we return our file to them and they will deal with the matter in house. For your information I spoke to [insurance wifie] on the Zurich technical team and agreed this course of action.
Zurich have set the claim up on [bloke upstair's] policy and their claim reference number is [number] the Zurich Whiteley branch is dealing, their full address is: The Zurich Centre, 3000 Parkway, Whiteley, Fareham, Hampshire, PO15 7JZ and the telephone number is : 0845 300 4055
If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
to which I replied
Zurich also insure [bloke upstairs], and they haven't told me that in all this time and made me fight for every single penny? Thank you for letting me know.
And then I emailed the bloke at Zurich I was dealing with and said "Is there any reason I wasn't informed of the conflict of interest at any time since I reported the problem last December?"
They haven't responded.
I will fucking have them.
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I will fucking have them.
They probably just hadn't noticed in a left hand, right hand way. Or to put that another way, damn right.
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It's a bit convenient that at the time of agreeing losses, they decide to tell you this. Surely if it is a conflict of interests it should be declared at the start of the claim?
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I am absolutely certain that what happened was
- I report incident and log claim
- they say yeah fine, get quotes send it in
- I send quote in
- they realise extent of damage, cost of work and then realise they won't be claiming the money back because they also insure tossfucktard upstairs
- they say they're not paying out
- I make formal complaint and make it clear I'm not going away
- they realise they have to pay up but won't get money back
and that resulted in all the months of drama while they insisted on more quotes, cheaper quotes and then getting their preferred contractor to price the necessary work because the loss adjuster was too busy to drive through from Glasgow within an acceptable timescale because "the traffic's really bad" (there's a train every 15 minutes). No recognition that getting your preferred contractor to do the loss adjustment is an utter conflict of interest too.
They've been utterly underhand throughout the whole thing and I will be writing to the Ombudsperson quite soon.
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Hi Ashley
I've just been speaking to Lee from Beachcroft and he advises me that as Zurich also insure the owner of the flat upstairs, Beachcroft won't be dealing with the uninsured losses claim. Is there any reason why I was not informed of the conflict of interest at any time during the last 7 months?
Kirsten
Hello,
I have spoken to our technical team regarding this issue. I was not aware of this as our recoveries are all handled by Beachcrofts.
It is something we can take up within Zurich and would be reviewed by one of our technical consultants.
To recover the costs on the claim from [upstairs] though we have to prove negligence on his behalf in not getting the leak fixed. We have to prove that he was reckless. Normally this is following months of being told to get it fixed etc. and doing nothing. Your claim however may be difficult to prove negligence on because you didn't know the leak was ongoing so i assume you didnt notify upstairs until the damage was done. This was why we offered cover for your claim because you didn't know it was ongoing.
I will get one of our technical team to review the situation and look at this aspect as it is not something i often deal with but i suspect it may be difficult as above.
I think it's fairly easy to prove neglect - not because the leak was ongoing but because the leak should never have occurred. It wasn't a cracked pipe or broken seal that couldn't have been spotted, it was pipes that were never connected, which is both neglectful and reckless!
Yes this is a possible avenue to pursue but as i say its not my area of expertise, i assume the case would be against the plumber who originally did the work then rather than the policyholder but im not sure how this works. I'll pass the file to one of our technical team to review.
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Keep on them, you will get there eventually.
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I have heard nothing from them re my uninsured losses so on Monday I phoned and they told me that Angelica is dealing with it, she is the assigned worker. Nice of them to let me know. She said she's waiting to get more information from the owner of upstairs and she said "I'll ring him just now and then phone you straight back."
It will come as no surprise that she has not yet phoned me back. I think when she does I'll say "oh, thank goodness you phoned! I haven't left the room since you said you'd phone straight back and I'm desperate for the toilet!"
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You could carry your phone with you and ensure you are on the loo when she calls back?
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Better still, ring her back and take your phone upstairs.
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I don't have an upstairs!
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Call her back and tell her that you haven't been out for days and is starving.
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Better still, ring her back and take your phone upstairs.
I don't have an upstairs!
I think Adam was meaning to take the phone to the neighbour ;)
...She said she's waiting to get more information from the owner of upstairs and she said "I'll ring him just now and then phone you straight back." .....
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Sorry, I'm a bit stupid today. Anyway, that's no good. The person upstairs is the tenant, and it's the owner she needs to speak to. I'm going to phone her back later.
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Ask Mr. Larrington if THE BEAR is trained to make phone calls
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I just lost the heid completely.
She still hadn't phoned me back so I phoned them and she said she's waiting to speak to the owner of upstairs but hasn't been able to get him. They want to know if he did the original pipework himself because if not, he's not liable/negligent and they won't be paying. That's when I started to shriek. I shrieked at her for about five minutes and then she said "so if he didn't do it himself we'll have to go after the person who did the work on your behalf." :-[ I don't care, they needed a good shrieking at.
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:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Saw this and thought of you. Two weeks without a proper bathroom (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/southend/8329054.Two_weeks_without_a_proper_bathroom/?ref=rss)
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Two weeks? Is that all? ;D
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I just lost the heid completely.
She still hadn't phoned me back so I phoned them and she said she's waiting to speak to the owner of upstairs but hasn't been able to get him. They want to know if he did the original pipework himself because if not, he's not liable/negligent and they won't be paying. That's when I started to shriek. I shrieked at her for about five minutes and then she said "so if he didn't do it himself we'll have to go after the person who did the work on your behalf." :-[ I don't care, they needed a good shrieking at.
They're wrong, your claim is against the owner of the property, he may have a claim against a third party but that has nothing to do with you. Just as the person who did the work has no obligation to you. The insurance company will know this and are just giving you the run around.
If your claim is less than the £5,000 limit, I'd suggest the Small Claims Court, you instigate a claim online and it is pretty easy. For a claim over the limit, I think it's time for legal advice.
Or, just keep shrieking till something happens.
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But the insurance company are also his insurers. This is what the problem is. I am trying to claim for my uninsured losses (the insured losses having been dealt with in the last 15 pages) and if he was insured by someone else, my insurance company would claim from his, but his is also Zurich. So if they can possibly shunt the blame elsewhere, they will.
Small claims only covers up to £3000, not £5000. My claim's only for about £600 so I could small claims it if I had to, but the insurance company are supposed to do it and I want to make them work for every penny before I take my policy elsewhere.
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Why on earth should it matter if he did the original pipework or not? It's his flat, it should be his responsibility to make sure that it's not dribbling over your flat, whether he does the work with his own hands or not.
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We had agreed that she would phone me back on Wednesday. She did, but I was busy and didn't bother to answer the phone so she left a message saying that she wasn't going to update me via answering machine and a letter was going in the post to me that night.
It hasn't arrived, so I will be ringing her first thing tomorrow morning (although the post never arrives here before 11am) to shriek a bit more.
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And now the battle is on for my uninsured losses. In December I got a letter from a legal company called Beachcroft advising me that they'd been appointed by Zurich to deal with claiming against upstairs's insurance to get Zurich's money back, and to claim my uninsured losses for me. I said I'd let him know what my uninsured losses turned out to be at the end of the work.
Then the bloke upstairs told me that he's also insured with Zurich. Zurich have never mentioned this huge conflict of interest throughout the work. I knew, but I didn't let them know, I decided to save it for when I needed it.
Anyway, now the work is finished I decided to contact Beachcroft about my uninsured losses, and yesterday I sent this email
the bathroom work was completed a few weeks ago and I'm ready to think about my uninsured losses. What I've calculated is loss of earnings, plus increase in my premiums because of the claim.
Loss of earnings - I was due to work as a polling clerk on election day for a fee of £152 (payment for the day plus payment for attending training). Because I didn't know where I'd be living on election day, I had to pull out and subsequently was not paid. So that's a loss of £152.
Insurance premiums - it turns out that contents & buildings insurance doesn't work like car insurance. The damage and subsequent claim were not my fault but that isn't taken into account in calculating the next few years' premiums so I will see a rise in my premiums for the next few years, because of the problems caused by upstairs. I've been looking at quote compare sites online and I will be facing a rise of at least £100pa for contents and buildings insurance, so I think £300 should compensate me for that over the next 3 years.
That comes to a total of £452. The excess on my policy is £75 which brings us to £527, and I'd accept £20 as a gesture towards the cost of the numerous lengthy calls I had to make to Zurich, which brings us to £547.
I look forward to hearing from you
Today I got this email from Beachcroft
Thank you for your e-mail.
Zurich Insurance have confirmed that they also insure [bloke upstairs] under a personal lines insurance policy. Due to the potential conflict, Zurich have requested that we return our file to them and they will deal with the matter in house. For your information I spoke to [insurance wifie] on the Zurich technical team and agreed this course of action.
Zurich have set the claim up on [bloke upstair's] policy and their claim reference number is [number] the Zurich Whiteley branch is dealing, their full address is: The Zurich Centre, 3000 Parkway, Whiteley, Fareham, Hampshire, PO15 7JZ and the telephone number is : 0845 300 4055
If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
Letter from Zurich today saying
I have now spoken to [owner of upstairs] as agreed and discussed the claim further. He has confirmed that the connection that was leaking has been in place for approximately 20 years and over the period of time slipped out of place. The tenant who is a plumber rectified that as soon as he was notified of the problem.
Your claim is for uninsured losses that you incurred or might incur following the escape of water from [upstairs owner]'s property. For such a claim to be successful you have to provide evidence that [owner upstairs] has been negligent and therefore responsible for the incident.
In our opinion [upstairs owner] has not been negligent as there was nothing further he could have done to prevent the incident and therefore cannot be held responsible for the same.
You can either approach [upstairs owner] direct for your losses, or as your policy has legal expenses cover, you can contact them for further advice...
We hope that this clarifies our position
So, the legal expenses people told me they wouldn't deal with it as the owner of upstairs is also insured through Zurich, and I should just contact Zurich, and Zurich are telling me to use the legal expenses people.
Fucking absolute bastard shitter fucking fuckers.
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So Zurich are going to make you use Zurich's legal team in order to sue Zurich for your expenses, and if you win your policy (Zurich) will pay and if you don't then his policy (Zurich) will pay?
:o
Or have I missed something?
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This is for uninsured losses. So Zurich can avoid paying by saying there is no fault upstairs. Hence conflict of interest.
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Sounds like a job for an Ombudsman.
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So Zurich are going to make you use Zurich's legal team in order to sue Zurich for your expenses, and if you win your policy (Zurich) will pay and if you don't then his policy (Zurich) will pay?
:o
Or have I missed something?
You've missed the part where they don't pay because apparently it's possible for two sections of pipe to somehow unscrew themselves over time.
Sounds like a job for an Ombudsman.
My next step is a letter from the tradesman who assisted me the night I noticed the damage, saying there's no way the pipes could have disconnected themselves, and if that doesn't work, it'll be ombudsperson and a friendly MSP.
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Have you booked the services of a SHUVEL wielding Teh Bear?
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This sounds like an unending nightmare; I can only offer sympathy.
It strikes me that what is in dispute is how long there was leakage of which you and upstairs owner were aware. ICBA to go back along this thread but I think I remember there was a stage during which you were aware of wet, you told upstairs of wet and not enough was done to address the issue.
Saying upstairs could have done no more does not accord with my memory of the facts as you have presented them to me.
I hope someone can help you sort this out properly.
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No, that's not quite it.
I wasn't aware of the damage until it was very very serious, because it was only visible under my floor and above my suspended ceiling, and I wasn't lifting my floor tiles or taking down the ceiling every so often to check that nothing was happening. I became aware of the problem when water was dripping through the suspended ceiling. Me and a friendly contractor went upstairs to the flat above to find out what was going on and discovered that a junction between his bathroom sink waste pipe and his kitchen sink waste pipe wasn't connected - the pipes were at least 1" apart. The connection was sorted the next day.
Then there was a couple of months of crap from Zurich saying I should have been aware of the damage and they weren't going to pay because it was long term damage, even though it was invisible without taking down the ceiling/lifting the floor tiles, then they said ok they'd pay, then they said my estimates were extortionate, then their loss adjuster couldn't do an inspection in time so they used their approved contractor who they would have used to do the work and based my pay out on their approved contractor's estimate. Dodgy dodgy dodgy.
So eventually they paid up and I moved out and the work was done and I paid my guys and then put in a claim for my uninsured losses through Zurich's legal team, Beachcroft. Then Beachcroft said oh, but Zurich also insure the bloke upstairs so they'll just deal with it in-house. And now they're saying it's possible for the pipes to have somehow unscrewed themselves so the owner of upstairs isn't negligent so they're not paying and I should go back to their legal team to recover my losses from him direct.
Of course, what it actually comes down to is they were happy to pay out until they realised that a) it was expensive and b) they also insure upstairs so they have no chance of getting any of their money back, so they've made things as difficult as possible every step of the way. Because they are the excrement of fetid fleas on plague-infested rats.
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Bugger!
I'd do 1 final letter, to be sent with the comments from your friendly tradesman who helped originally. Point out the absurdity of the situation, especially the fact the pipes were completely disconnected, the fact they've been deliberately delaying, and acting incorrectly in respect of also insuring upstairs. Give them 7 days to settle in full or else.
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Of course, what it actually comes down to is they were happy to pay out until they realised that a) it was expensive and b) they also insure upstairs so they have no chance of getting any of their money back, so they've made things as difficult as possible every step of the way. Because they are the excrement of fetid fleas on plague-infested rats.
This sounds exactly like the sort of thing that the Guardian money page sometimes deal with on people’s behalf quite successfully, if your final attempt doesn’t work out, consider bringing the negative publicity angle in to play.
Put it this way, having read about your ongoing woes, there is no way I would use Zurich for insurance.
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Zurich have to pay a £2.3 million fine to the FSA (http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/PR/2010/134.shtml).
Well, what a surprise............
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Letter from friendly contractor says
At the end of last year, I attended an emergency call out at the above address with regard to water coming through your bathroom ceiling.
After investigation, I found that the upstairs pipe leading from the bathroom sink in the above flat was never connected to the 4” waste.
It is impossible that this pipe came loose – it was never connected.
I hope this clarifies the situation and should you require any further information regarding the above, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely,
GH
DIRECTOR
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.....Zurich saying ..... it's possible for the pipes to have somehow unscrewed themselves ........
Quite clearly because they are so used to being told to go Scr3w themselves....
Great sympathy for your troubles, but it is worth observing that it used to be the case that the respectable insurers (and Zurich should be one of those) used to be a lot better in settling claims, and the troubles that you are having would have been symptomatic of a bargain basement company. I would speculate that the reasons for the change are threefold: 1) The downward pressure on premiums caused by price comparison sites. However, that doesn't imply that a more expensive policy would give you better treatment, just (possibly) better Ts&Cs. 2) The large number of major natural disasters - this shouldn't really change the way you are treated but 3) the sheer number of people putting in fraudulent or inflated claims. Now, 'twas always thus, but by squeezing down on these and by association every claim, legitimate or not, they can increase their margin and therefore achieve (1).
Of course, they might just be knobs.
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It is my experience of insurers that they'll take as much of your money in premiums as they can possibly extract, but, when it comes to paying out they simply don't know how to write a cheque.
Stick to it Kirst. Don't let the bastards wriggle free.
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It is my experience of insurers that they'll take as much of your money in premiums as they can possibly extract, but, when it comes to paying out they simply don't know how to write a cheque.
I think that you have just described their business plan
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.....Zurich saying ..... it's possible for the pipes to have somehow unscrewed themselves ........
Quite clearly because they are so used to being told to go Scr3w themselves....
Great sympathy for your troubles, but it is worth observing that it used to be the case that the respectable insurers (and Zurich should be one of those) used to be a lot better in settling claims, and the troubles that you are having would have been symptomatic of a bargain basement company. I would speculate that the reasons for the change are threefold: 1) The downward pressure on premiums caused by price comparison sites. However, that doesn't imply that a more expensive policy would give you better treatment, just (possibly) better Ts&Cs. 2) The large number of major natural disasters - this shouldn't really change the way you are treated but 3) the sheer number of people putting in fraudulent or inflated claims. Now, 'twas always thus, but by squeezing down on these and by association every claim, legitimate or not, they can increase their margin and therefore achieve (1).
Of course, they might just be knobs.
my only experiences with Zurich are that they are not respectable insurers, and had always thought of them as a bit cheap and nasty anyway. I had a car claim with them, after someone broke into my car, and they tried to say I had to buy a secondhand radio to replace the 6 month old rather fancy one that had been stolen from it. Excuse me, its not a household policy where you have to pay extra for "new for old", its a fucking car, you don't expect me to have secondhand body panels fitted when someone crashes into it, do you? Other experience was at work, where they got fined a LOT of money, after 2 people died in one of our lifts because they (Zurich) were too lazy or stupid to read the lift manufacturers safety updates, despite the same thing happening elsewhere in a lift they insured.
Tossers. Keep at it, Kirst!
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Zurich are also feeling poor at the moment, having just been fined bigtime for losing their customers' data.
Did you know they're almost completely outsourced, including IT and HR? They have a big place in Swindon but a bad reputation as a "hire 'em and fire 'em" outfit, so they usually have vacancies.
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Are you suggesting I apply, and bring them down from the inside? :demon:
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Are you suggesting I apply, and bring them down from the inside? :demon:
That might be one party involved in the claim connected to Zurich too far.
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Phone call from the insurance wifie today, saying she thinks I have had a bad service from them, but they still don't think upstairs were negligent and I'm not getting any money. The pipes spontaneously worked themselves loose. I actually said to her "It's been a long time since my physics O'level but I'm pretty sure two inert pipes can't spontaneously unscrew themselves." So she said there was nothing more they could do, and they recommend I contact the owner myself to sort out private compensation. I said I didn't feel that was appropriate, they are my insurance company and I expect them to deal with these things on my behalf, and then the conversation went
me: so I expect my next move will be to instruct the free legal representation via my insurance company to sue his insurance company
her: but that's us
me: yeah, that's my point
::-)
It sounds like the owner of upstairs has fed her a load of nonsense about what was actually happening with his pipework, so I got her to phone Garry at SCB and speak to him about what he saw when he investigated it the first night. Spoke to Garry myself afterwards and obviously he's told her completely different information from what upstairs have said, and the last thing she said to Garry was that she'd need to speak to upstairs again. She hadn't realised that upstairs's floor was rotten because he hasn't made a claim for it, but as Garry said to her, that's not my fault and I shouldn't be penalised for it. She was also trying to tell him that the leak might have been short term, so he put her straight on that as well - that really pisses me off. They tried to avoid paying the claim because it was long term damage and now they're trying to say it's short term to avoid paying again. Fuckers.
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Dear Kirst
Further to my letter of 3rd September, you'll be pleased to know I've now completed my review.
We're committed to treating customers fairly, so I've obtained a copy of your file to find out what has happened.
Firstly, I'd like to take this opportunity to say sorry for not agreeing to pay for the repairs when you first told us about the damage. I'm glad we agreed to change this decision.
Having considered matters carefully, I feel it's appropriate to offer £100 compensation for the unnecessary delay this caused at the start of the claim and I'll arrange for a cheque to be sent to you shortly.
You'll be pleased to know banking the cheque won't affect your right to ask the Financial Ombudsman Service to review this matter, should you decide to request this.
Regarding the recovery of your losses, I understand you've spoken to Sarah in our claims department, who has explained why we're unable to pursue [upstairs] for this money.
Whilst I appreciate your strong feelings about this, I can assure you our decision isn't influenced by [upstairs] being a Zurich customer as well.
To be able to make a recovery, we must be able to show [upstairs] has been negligent. Having reviewed matters carefully, I agree with Sarah that we will be unable to do this.
Of course, this doesn't stop you from speaking to [upstairs] directly. However, I'm unable to change our decision on this matter on this occasion.
This is Zurich's final response in terms of our complain procedure. Of course, you have the right to ask for an independent review by contacting the Financial Ombudsman Service.
If you go ahead with this option, please remember you need to do so within 6 months of the date of this letter.
I trust this helps explain our position.
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So - they're trying to fob you off with £100??
Streuth.
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Well, I'm quite pleased at the £100 from them as an apology for their general shitness, because it'll pay for the fabulous gothy outfit I just bought for my birthday party, but if they think I'm leaving it there, they've got another think coming.
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Go get 'em ;)
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Trouser the £100 and go for it.
It might be fun to ask why them outright how they interpret leaving pipes unconnected
> A person has acted negligently if he or she has departed from the conduct expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances
So, you can ask them either if they believe it was reasonable for the pipes to be left as they were or if they do not believe you. There are no alternatives. That reply could then go to the Onbudsman.
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I'm fed up arguing with them, they're just cuntybaws. I'm going to finally connect my new printer, then collate all the correspondence I have had with them into one big long rational page of fury, and let the Ombudsperkin deal with it. And I'm going to spend the £100 on getting out of my Orange contract early and moving to Vodafone with a new HTC Desire because my phone is fucked and repairing it wouldn't be that much cheaper and I don't think it'll last till my next upgrade. Never get a 24 month contract, never insure with Zurich. Those are my words of wisdom for today. Also, Vollers corsets don't fit as well as Corsets UK, and Corsets UK are a lot cheaper.
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I'm fed up arguing with them, they're just cuntybaws. I'm going to finally connect my new printer, then collate all the correspondence I have had with them into one big long rational page of fury, and let the Ombudsperkin deal with it. And I'm going to spend the £100 on getting out of my Orange contract early and moving to Vodafone with a new HTC Desire because my phone is fucked and repairing it wouldn't be that much cheaper and I don't think it'll last till my next upgrade. Never get a 24 month contract, never insure with Zurich. Those are my words of wisdom for today. Also, Vollers corsets don't fit as well as Corsets UK, and Corsets UK are a lot cheaper.
Fun though it is to rant (and I wouldn't want to stop you) it is still worth considering what is the core of the complaint that you want the onbudsman to action and stating it loud and clear. Sounds like there is quite some peripheral stuff and shitty treatment he might have a view on, but doesn't the main point come down to whether or not the upstairs was negligent?
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My main points are
- their behaviour has been deceitful and dodgy all the way through (I will go into detail about the exact nature of their deceit and dodginess) and has cost me money
- their belief that leaving pipes unconnected isn't negligent has cost me a lot of money
Everything they've done has been about trying to minimise their costs instead of making things right for me.
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Good luck Kirst, I really hope you win this one because you certainly deserve it.
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Much as I sympathise with Kirst's current plight, I'm afraid I only really registered a few phrases from her last 2 postings. These were, predictably, "the fabulous gothy outfit I bought for my birthday party" and " Vollers corsets don't fit as well" Sorry, but my life will not be complete without pictures.... I need to see this, any chance of an invite to the birthday party? (only joking, I think)
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I am beginning my complaint to the ombudsfolk. This could take a while.
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Keep at 'em Krst! Good luck.
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Complaint to the Ombudsperkin - there's a big form to fill in, but it's not big enough to contain all the info I need to give them, so this is my attached sheet.
I live in a 2nd floor tenement flat. I own my flat. The flat above me is rented. On 15/12/2009 I noticed water dripping through the suspended ceiling of my bathroom. I called out a contractor, GH of Special Care Bathrooms, Edinburgh, to assist. We took down part of the suspended ceiling and found that the walls of the bathroom above the suspended ceiling were running wet, the ceiling was rotten and there was mould and fungus growing. We went to the flat upstairs and after some argument the tenant (who is a plumber) let us in to inspect. Mr H found that the waste pipe from the bathroom sink was not connected to the 4" waste. It was apparent that every time the taps on the bathroom sink had been run, the water had drained into the floor of the flat above me and from there into my ceiling, where the damage was hidden by the suspended ceiling. The next day, 16/12/2009, I contacted Zurich and instigated a claim for repair of the damage. I advised Zurich that it was obvious the damage had happened over a long period of time and that it had been hidden by the suspended ceiling. I also contacted the landlord of the flat above, Mr John B, and he assured me that he would ensure the drainage was connected.
Zurich advised me that I could repair the damage myself, use Rok (their approved contractor) or get a quote from my preferred contractor. I received a letter from Beachcroft advising me Zurich had appointed them to pursue the owner of the flat upstairs to recover Zurich's losses, and to recover my uninsured losses. I got a quote from Special Care Bathroom, which I knew to be reasonable, and sent it in. On 22/12/2009 Zurich sent a Rok inspector to assess the damage. The inspector advised Rok that the damage was obviously long term damage and on 13/01/2010 Rok advised me that they were refusing the claim on the grounds that the damage should have been reported earlier, even though it had not been visible. They also advised me that my quote from Special Care Bathrooms was "extortionate." (My job involves providing wet floor shower adaptations for disabled people. We use a variety of companies and I have been in this job 10 years, so I am well aware of what a reasonable price is).
I submitted a formal complaint to Zurich and on 02/02/2010 AD advised me that they would consider the claim but that I would have to provide further estimates, as they believe the Special Care Bathroom estimate to be too expensive. (1) I believe this was unfavourable treatment, as when I first submitted the claim I was advised I would only have to provide one quote. I believe that once they realised it was a relatively big job and therefore expensive, they changed their conditions.
I provided further estimates and Zurich advised that they were all too expensive and stated that they would send out their loss adjuster. This was the end of March/early April and their loss adjusted stated they would not be able to attend in a timescale I felt acceptable because they were busy with their end of year accounts. Zurich instead sent out another inspector from Rok, who stated the work could be done by them for less than half of any of the estimates I had received. (2) I believe this was unethical and dishonest treatment. I don’t believe it’s ethical for Zurich to use the same company to do the loss adjustment as they would use to do the work, and I believe that as Rok had already seen at least one of my estimates, they were able to provide a much lower estimate, knowing that Zurich would use that quote as their basis for a settlement, and if Rok were then appointed to do the work, they could bill Zurich directly for more without my knowledge.
After some discussion, and fed up living in a flat with a mouldy, fungus-ridden bathroom with rotten ceiling and floor, I settled with Zurich for £7500 which included the costs of alternative accommodation for the duration of the work and the work went ahead in May 2010 – 6 months after I made the initial claim. The £7500 settlement was about £1000 short of the actual costs. Once the existing bathroom was stripped out it was discovered that the floor joists needed to be replaced and treated and I made an additional claim, which was paid without incident. The work was completed at the end of May 2010 and I moved back in without further incident.
On 13/07/2010 I contacted Beachcroft to begin the process of recovering my uninsured losses and provided them with a statement detailing what they were, a sum totalling just over £600. On 14/07/2010 I was advised by LT of Beachcroft that Zurich are also the insurers for Mr B, the owner of that flat above and that Zurich would deal with my claim for uninsured losses in-house. At no point since I made the claim in December 2009 did Zurich advise me that they were also the insurers for Mr B, or that there was a potential conflict of interest. (3) I believe this to be unfair and unethical.
Zurich advised me that they had discussed the matter with Mr B and that he had said he was unaware that the waste pipe was not connected, and as he had sorted the problem as soon as he was aware of it, it was not a long-term problem and he could not be considered negligent and therefore they would not cover my uninsured losses. I reminded them that at first they had tried to deny the claim as it was obvious the damage was long term and queried how leaving waste pipes unconnected could possibly be considered not negligent. I provided a written statement from Mr H at Special Care Bathrooms detailing that the pipes had never been connected and that it was impossible that they could have been connected and worked loose over time, but Zurich refused to accept this and have advised me that they will not cover my uninsured losses. They did send a cheque for £100 as an apology for delay in settling the initial claim. (4) I believe it is unreasonable to claim that Mr B was not negligent in failing to have his waste pipes connected, and that Zurich have come to this conclusion solely because they are his insurer too and it saves them money to refuse my claim. I believe it is hypocritical in the extreme to try to tell me the problem was not long-term when last January they tried to deny the claim because the damage was long term.
I believe that Zurich were willing to look at my claim when I first made it because they didn’t realise a) how big a job it would be or b) that they are also Mr B's insurers. It appears clear to me that once they realised that it would be a significant claim, and that they would not be able to recover the costs from another insurance company, they tried everything they could to refuse the claim and to keep their costs to a minimum. They have paid little heed to their duty of care to me as their customer. They did not tell me they were also Mr B’s insurer or that there was a conflict of interest. They tried to deny the claim on the grounds the damage was long-term, even though I had declared that when I first reported the damage. They asked me for one estimate, then decided they needed three. They used the same company (Rok) to inspect the damage initially, then to do the loss adjustment, as they would have used to repair the damage, as they used to evaluate the initial quote I sent them, and they sent them out to do the loss adjustment after Rok had seen the quotes from the other companies. There is no way I could ever have got a fair settlement from Zurich in those circumstances. And then once Beachcroft, not Zurich, advised me that Zurich are also Mr B’s insurers, they denied my claim for uninsured losses because they accept Mr B’s statement that the waste pipes have somehow come apart over time, despite a statement from Mr H confirming that is not possible and the pipes were never connected.
Zurich have absolutely failed in their duty to me as a customer who has experienced a loss caused by the neglect of another party. They have twisted everything they could to ensure that they could save money, rather than doing their best to provide me with a fair settlement, and I have no option but to resort to the Ombudsman for redress.
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Make sure you also include a list of all the phone calls you've had to make, including any contradictory statements that Zurich have made*, as well as providing copies of all the correspondence.
Good luck. Sadly, it will take some time for an adjudicator to actually look at the case.
* Zurich record all their phone calls and in the past, I've found this useful as after obtaining a copy recording, it's confirmed that what we said Zurich had told us originally was correct, rather than something totally different which they subsequently claimed they'd said, if you see what I mean.
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I phoned the owner of the flat upstairs on Sunday and left a message for him asking him to call me back to discuss my uninsured losses. He's just phoned back, and basically told me he's not paying. So I've told him I'll put my request in writing, and if he doesn't pay, I'll go the small claims court.
ETA:
I am filled with an unholy glee.
It occurred to me that my insurance policy includes free legal representation. The bastards have refused to settle in-house, but as far as I can see there's nothing to stop me calling and exercising my right to free legal representation. So I did. I called, lodged a claim and asked them to represent me to make a claim against the insurers of the bloke upstairs to recover my uninsured losses.
I wish I could see Zurich's faces when they realise I'm asking Zurich to pay for legal people to claim against Zurich.
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Oooh, you are a crafty one! :)
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Sheer genius. 8)
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.....
I wish I could see Zurich's faces when they realise I'm asking Zurich to pay for legal people to claim against Zurich.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Brilliant 8) :thumbsup:
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:thumbsup:
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Dear Ms Kirst,
Thank you for your email.
I understand that you are looking to claim for your uninsured losses, loss of earnings/excess, and would ask that you provide evidence of these losses.
Please be advised that an increase in your home insurance premium is not an uninsured loss, so I will be unable to assist in that regard
I look forward to hearing from you.
Kind Regards
Hello
thanks for the email. I'm collating evidence for my loss of earnings and will forward it by post. As regards the increase in my insurance premiums, this is financial loss that I will suffer as a result of the problem from upstairs, and it is not covered by my insurance policy. As you are acting on my behalf, I am instructing you to seek to recover it along with the other losses.
I will forward the loss of earnings evidence asap
Regards
*hits head off wall*
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Hi Kirst,
It might please you to know that Rok have just gone into administration.
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It did make me not feel very upset.
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The builder was supposed to come tomorrow to look at it but events have since taken a turn for the worse.
Tonight I could hear water dripping into the bath and couldn't work out why as the shower's been turned off since this morning. I went to have a look and water was dripping steadily from the ceiling. My bathroom ceiling is a false ceiling, plasterboard, hiding the boiler flue and there are no pipes above it. I went upstairs and checked with the bloke in the flat above (he of the thong) and he said "no, no, everything's dry." So I made him come downstairs and look at the water dripping through my ceiling, and he said he would go and take his bath panel off and check.
Half an hour later he came back down and said everything was fine up there so I realised I had no option but to call a plumber. There are two plumbers I have used in the past - Alexander Ritchie who is no longer in the phone book so I think isn't in business any more, and Eddie the Plumber who is quite elderly and I didn't want to call him out at night if I could help it. Luckily my adaptations work brings me into contact with tradespeople and I have a good relationship with the excellent Special Care Bathrooms who I would be delighted to recommend to any of you if I was allowed to do so. I have one of their guys' numbers in my work mobile so I rang him and asked him to recommend someone in Edinburgh who would come out and not rip me off. Garry (for that is his name) came himself, all the way from Ormiston on a Tuesday night.
He took a board out of my false ceiling and we realised that my real ceiling and the top flat's floorboards are wet and rotten through, and I have a lovely crop of fungus growing over the top side of my false ceiling. There was lots of water visible and it seems pretty obvious that that's where the external damp patch has come from. We went upstairs and got the neighbour to come down and look, and then we went upstairs and Garry had a root around in the upstairs kitchen and bathroom and found the problem in seconds. Upstairs, which is a rented flat, has clearly been plumbed by morons. Various things aren't connected properly, including the toilet overflow (that's not connected at all) and the bathroom sink waste, and water has obviously been soaking into the floor and into my ceiling for months, if not years.
My neighbour is very apologetic and says he'll fix the plumbing tomorrow but doesn't seem to understand that he's probably going to have to get a whole new floor for the kitchen and bathroom. He doesn't seem to want to involve the landlord so I will have to use my cooncil contacts to find out who it is and notify him myself. I don't think there's any point in me fixing my ceiling until I know that upstairs is fixed, or this'll just happen again. I'll notify my insurance company tomorrow that work will need to be done and let them sort it, but there's no point covering it all up until I know it's dry upstairs.
I think that the water has eventually soaked its way into the outside wall and the sandstone has just sucked it up like a sponge, hence the massive damp patch. :-\
Happy anniversary, bathroom nightmare.
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Will there be a CAKE?
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You had me worried - thought it had started all over again! (quoting isn't obvious when viewing on a handheld device)
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Today I had a phonecall telling me that my complaint to the ombudsperkin has been allocated to a caseworker.
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:thumbsup: Let's hope you have some good news in the New Year.
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Dear Kirst
Further to my letter of 17 December 2010 I am writing to advise that my enquiries are continuing. I was away on annual leave from 24 December 2010 to 17 January 2011, so was unable to progress your case during this time.
I hope to be in a position to issue my findings to the business next week.
Thank you for your patience.
Yours sincerely
the ombudsperkin
That's great, thanks for letting me know. Hope you had a good holiday. Do you issue your findings to me as well as to them?
thanks
Kirsten
Dear Kirst
Thank you for your email.
At this time I would only issue my findings to the business, as there are some issues that it may wish to respond to. If a way forward is agreed then I will write to you outlining the position at that time.
Yours sincerely
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Does the ombudsperkin look like this?
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzteZJEvS2-mkOOEBxdf6Akh03W3wBk_5g1MzXXxLKf7Azorcy3Q)
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;D
That's kind of how I imagine them to look too
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Arse and shit and fuck and damn and blast. The Financial Ombudsgerkin has decided I have no grounds for complaint. Fuckers.
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Arse and shit and fuck and damn and blast. The Financial Ombudsgerkin has decided I have no grounds for complaint. Fuckers.
:o :o :o
>:( >:( >:(
:-* :-* :-*
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:(
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Arse!
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Hmmm. that doesn't seem right. Reasoning for little fuckwit decision?
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Oh. Why?
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From reading the three page letter, they think Zurich have behaved reasonably and I'm making a fuss about nothing. >:( I think I need to borrow TEH SHUVEL and TEH BEAR. And some of Mr Gates's thermite.
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That or nuclear weapons. Beyond that I am completely lost for words, sorry.
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(http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/SmileyMachineGun.gif)
Kill them all, they deserve it >:(
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>:(
I'm quite gobsmacked to be honest.
If a case worker has made a decision, you do have the right to go back, re-state your case and request the Ombudsman look at it.
Put the key bits in bullet points.
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Arse and shit and fuck and damn and blast. The Financial Ombudsgerkin has decided I have no grounds for complaint. Fuckers.
I am afraid that I am not in the least surprised.
Every "watchdog" I have ever experienced seems to be put in place to give the impression that it reins in the excesses of big business, but in fact rarely does. Their true purpose is obfuscation. The list includes the Ombudsman, the Standards Board for England, the Disability Rights Commission and the Planning Inspectorate.
You have my sympathy.
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the Disability Rights Commission and the Planning Inspectorate.
You have my sympathy.
And the DRC were a lot more useful than what's come since them... :( They at least wrote some bloody useful "practitioner" guidance but they'd only take on cases they felt they could 100% win. Bert Massie took it on believing it'd be worth something poor sod.
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I would recommend emailing Brignall & King from the Guardian's Money pages, they often do good work with this sort of thing:
consumer.champions@guardian.co.uk
Good luck.
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And now the legal people via my insurance company have decided not to take the case. They say it's probably not winnable but I think they mean "we've just realised you're trying to get us to sue ourselves." So tonight I will be downloading small claims forms and then I will immolate them all.
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Oh, dilemma. The owner of the flat upstairs has put £100 through my door to cover the excess on my policy. So now do I accept that and write off my other losses, or do I go ahead with small claims? Fuck.
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Oh, dilemma. The owner of the flat upstairs has put £100 through my door to cover the excess on my policy. So now do I accept that and write off my other losses, or do I go ahead with small claims? Fuck.
do this first then consider the other issue
HTH
:)