Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: Valiant on 28 April, 2022, 12:14:13 pm
-
Recently I've been building 304ah 12v lithium phosphate batteries for friends with boats, I basically take grade a matched cells, source and test battery management system, install active cell balancing, install bluetooth modules aswell as low and high temp cut offs and in some cases heating wire.
These have been a big success for my friends as they got a huge (*relative) lithium battery banks for a big saving on what they cost from the likes of Victron, and having 6000 charges means they should last over a decade rather than the year or two for lead acid. These were built into furniture like banchet seating etc. I'm yet to build one into a typical battery case.
It got my thinking that maybe I could offer this as a service. But I wasn't sure what I'd need to do in order to let me sell to the public. It's all off the shelf parts that I'm just building up for people.
If I had 10 of them on the shelf ready to sell to anyone, would it be different to me building it for a mate, or someone asking me to build for them?
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
-
I'd be looking at product liability insurance quite closely before going commercial.
-
I'd be looking at product liability insurance quite closely before going commercial.
Plus all the laws around construction and safety etc. etc.
-
I was curious about what the boat safety certification book would have to say about lipo.
Nothing. The regs still assume the batteries are lead-acid and the rules are designed accordingly. ffs
-
I'd be looking at product liability insurance quite closely before going commercial.
Plus all the laws around construction and safety etc. etc.
That's the info I'm looking for really but unsure where to look.
I've look into CE Mark's etc so far and all I can glean atm is make sure you've done everything safely, and think of the worst case use and how to mitigate etc. Which is all kinda obvious tbh.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
-
As Tim says, you’ll need insurance to sell to the public, and the terms of the insurance would dictate what rules and regulations,you would need to follow. I think once you factor in the costs of insurance and added bureaucracy you’d lose a lot of those big savings. Big manufactures save on those costs through the economies of scale and I suspect you’d be doing it for very little money if you were going to be competitive.
-
I was curious about what the boat safety certification book would have to say about lipo.
Nothing. The regs still assume the batteries are lead-acid and the rules are designed accordingly. ffs
These have been for boats so far and no issues hence far. They mostly seem to care that batteries and cabling are secured, fused, inflatable, and correct size wiring is used.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
-
I was curious about what the boat safety certification book would have to say about lipo.
Nothing. The regs still assume the batteries are lead-acid and the rules are designed accordingly. ffs
These have been for boats so far and no issues hence far. They mostly seem to care that batteries and cabling are secured, fused, inflatable, and correct size wiring is used.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Inflatable?
The existing regs for securing batteries are weird. I used ratchet straps (I know, the straps are vulnerable to the acids), which passed regs, but were a really poor solution. There was a period when the regs required the batteries to be secured vertically - so they wouldn't move if the boat was inverted. That's a very common occurrence with narrowboats.
-
I think all UK battery manufactures and sellers are obliged to provide a recycling service for old batteries, you might have to do that,
-
I thought no you would also find a market in the campervan market.
-
I follow a couple of van people on YT and both have recently upgraded their vans from AGM to LiFePo batteries from Eco Tree Lithium. If you can compete with these (they seem VG value) then you could have a nice little business.
I may have a requirement myself in the near future...
-
I'd be looking at product liability insurance quite closely before going commercial.
Plus all the laws around construction and safety etc. etc.
That's the info I'm looking for really but unsure where to look.
I've look into CE Mark's etc so far and all I can glean atm is make sure you've done everything safely, and think of the worst case use and how to mitigate etc. Which is all kinda obvious tbh.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
UK CA I think you mean ;)
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/batteries
ETA: https://www.mpoweruk.com/standards.htm
Plus RoHS and REACH of course.
-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/batteries
Appliances that incorporate batteries must be designed so that the end user can readily remove the battery safely, without difficulty and when necessary using the instructions provided. Where it is not possible for the end user to remove the battery, an independent qualified professional must be able to readily remove it. The instructions must explain the type of battery incorporated, where appropriate. This does not apply where a permanent connection between the appliance and the battery is needed for safety, performance, medical or data integrity.
Gosh, how sensible. Apart from the weasel-words in the last sentence.
-
I was curious about what the boat safety certification book would have to say about lipo.
Nothing. The regs still assume the batteries are lead-acid and the rules are designed accordingly. ffs
These have been for boats so far and no issues hence far. They mostly seem to care that batteries and cabling are secured, fused, inflatable, and correct size wiring is used.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Inflatable?
The existing regs for securing batteries are weird. I used ratchet straps (I know, the straps are vulnerable to the acids), which passed regs, but were a really poor solution. There was a period when the regs required the batteries to be secured vertically - so they wouldn't move if the boat was inverted. That's a very common occurrence with narrowboats.
Sorry encased and isolatable.
-
I follow a couple of van people on YT and both have recently upgraded their vans from AGM to LiFePo batteries from Eco Tree Lithium. If you can compete with these (they seem VG value) then you could have a nice little business.
I may have a requirement myself in the near future...
My last pack was 12v 720ah with two 120a BMS and active cell balancing and BT for £1500. So even if I whack on a few hundred quid for all the labour of testing and matching components and cells, building, misc bits (terminals, wires/solder/heatsink) etc it's still far cheaper. I need to time it all and work it out properly but £ per AH or WH is still way cheaper than off the shelf. Thats unless insurance is that expensive.
-
Just a thought, but if you were to branch into recelling Bosch ebike batteries you'd be doing folk a great service...
-
They have a high failure rate or something? Seems odd as their really good with their cordless power tools etc.
-
They're no less reliable than most, but if you encounter a problem with your battery, their answer is always to get a new one, and they are very expensive.
-
There are very strict regulations on transportation/shipping of anything with Lithium batteries built in. Certification is to make sure that the battery cannot set fire to everything around when handled/mishandled - includes normal and abnormal usage.
Any product that has built in charging/BMS and lithium batteries requires certification, ANY changes of design, software, firmware, sub components, sub component manufacturing location etc require re certification. To avoid this certification many products use removable cells/battery packs that are charged out of the product or have a connector that isolates them.
-
They have a high failure rate or something? Seems odd as their really good with their cordless power tools etc.
I've recently repaired Shimano and Hainzmann batteries, I was expecting BMS faults but both batteries had failed spot-welds on at least one cell. The Hainzmann had had about 8 years in use, the Shimano only 2.
-
There are very strict regulations on transportation/shipping of anything with Lithium batteries built in. Certification is to make sure that the battery cannot set fire to everything around when handled/mishandled - includes normal and abnormal usage.
Any product that has built in charging/BMS and lithium batteries requires certification, ANY changes of design, software, firmware, sub components, sub component manufacturing location etc require re certification. To avoid this certification many products use removable cells/battery packs that are charged out of the product or have a connector that isolates them.
Amazing thanks, who is doing this certification?
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk