Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 664709 times)

T42

  • Patron saint of the dry joint
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6450 on: 21 April, 2022, 05:15:59 pm »
I reckon they'd heard the word triumvirate on TV and gone on from there.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6451 on: 24 April, 2022, 09:31:57 am »
Some eejit cook on YouTube continually placing stuff into receptacles instead of in them.
Like trains arriving into stations?
Personally I've always arrived at stations. Not sure into receptacles is wrong, as it conveys a sense of movement - after the stuff has been put into the receptacle, then it is in that receptacle. Although I'd probably put the receptacle in the cupboard afterwards, which is a bit inconsistent. Is this a distinction that would have been rigorous previously and is now falling out of use? Some languages use different cases, if I recall correctly, to reflect the distinction between being in a place and moving into that place.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6452 on: 25 April, 2022, 10:01:18 am »
Prepositional and dative cases would be two such examples. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

T42

  • Patron saint of the dry joint
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6453 on: 25 April, 2022, 11:39:43 am »
Not sure into receptacles is wrong, as it conveys a sense of movement - after the stuff has been put into the receptacle, then it is in that receptacle.

That's not my quibble: I didn't like place into. Place in would be fine, ditto put into, but the to in place into is redundant.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6454 on: 26 April, 2022, 07:36:01 pm »
From Sainsbury's website:
<<Customer Information: Due to the current conflict in Ukraine, it may be necessary to substitute sunflower oil for other oils in some products. Rapeseed oil is the most likely replacement, but other oils may be used. Customer safety is very important to us, and we have taken care to ensure that there is no allergen risk from any of the substituted oils.>>

I think this back to front. I presume there is a  shortage of Ukrainian sunflower oil, in which case they might need to substitute rapeseed for sunflower oil.

Is this just me?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6455 on: 26 April, 2022, 07:38:58 pm »
You're right. But I think this is a "yourself" or "him and I" type of usage – "substitute for" is treated as a "more sophisticated" way of saying "replace with".
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6456 on: 26 April, 2022, 07:43:52 pm »
Yebbut then it should be “with” not “for”.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6457 on: 26 April, 2022, 08:09:29 pm »
Yebbut then it should be “with” not “for”.

True; substance, not word.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6458 on: 26 April, 2022, 08:26:54 pm »
You're thinking way too consistently, not like someone who says "This belongs to yourself and I".
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6459 on: 26 April, 2022, 09:06:57 pm »
Maybe it's a sportsball usage

[Player X taken off] is substituted for [Player Y replacing them] vs [Player Y] is a substitute for [Player X]
Reasonably Inconsiderate

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6460 on: 26 April, 2022, 09:25:20 pm »
My understanding is:

"I'm substituting X for Y"

means I'm giving you X in place of Y.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6461 on: 26 April, 2022, 10:24:50 pm »
Quote
it may be necessary to substitute sunflower oil for other oils in some products

For the intended meaning, it should be: it may be necessary to replace sunflower oil with other oils in some products.

As it is, it means: the "other oils" are in short supply and sunflower oil is the replacement.


Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6462 on: 27 April, 2022, 12:25:49 pm »
Quote
it may be necessary to substitute sunflower oil for other oils in some products

For the intended meaning, it should be: it may be necessary to replace sunflower oil with other oils in some products.

As it is, it means: the "other oils" are in short supply and sunflower oil is the replacement.
Agreed. As I started to read it my assumption was that they had made a mistake and reversed the oils.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6463 on: 06 May, 2022, 11:46:46 am »
Quote
The signees urged Scholz to heed Germany’s “historic responsibility” by helping the two sides find a “compromise that both can accept”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/06/german-thinkers-war-of-words-over-ukraine-exposes-generational-divide

Aren't the people who sign a letter signatories? Or if you don't like that, then signers rather than signees? They've done the signing not been signed. (This is like "attendee" isn't it?)
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6464 on: 06 May, 2022, 01:18:00 pm »
They've done the signing not been signed. (This is like "attendee" isn't it?)
Yes. And like "retiree", who is, linguistically, somebody who has been forcibly retired :o

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6465 on: 06 May, 2022, 02:20:07 pm »
Retiree makes sense viewed from that angle, as does employee of course. But attendee still seems an oddity to me. As does signee.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6466 on: 06 May, 2022, 06:41:36 pm »
It's just that, when it comes to me (not that long now), I'm hoping to take the initiative...

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6467 on: 06 May, 2022, 08:57:40 pm »
I nearly sent an email today which included the phrase '... which should qualm some concerns'.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6468 on: 08 May, 2022, 06:04:07 pm »
Quote
The English slang word “peeved” is sometimes used to refer to someone who has drunk too much alcohol and is again derived from a Romany word. The European Romany word “pijav” means “drink” and shows a direct connection with the English slang.
https://theconversation.com/six-english-words-borrowed-from-the-romany-language-179869

I've never heard 'peeved' used to mean 'drunk'. It does seem possible that 'peeved' might come from 'peed off' but whether that shares a root with pijav I don't know. OED says 'peevish' is from 'late Middle English (in the sense ‘perverse, coy’): of unknown origin.'

Quote
According to the online source the urban dictionary the word “chingering” means to caress another person’s chin in a sensual way. This is quite far removed from the meaning of the word chingering used amongst speakers of Anglo-Romany. This word is used to refer to quarrelling or to the act of insulting someone. The word again derives from the Romany words “čhinger” and “čhingerel” meaning to quarrel or shout.
I've never heard this word, but if the English meaning is so different from the Romany, is the one really derived from the other?

Quote
You may be surprised by some of the words that have been incorrectly labelled as colloquial or slang in English, which are in fact words that have crossed over from Anglo-Romany.
Why incorrectly? They may be standard vocabulary in Anglo-Romany but that doesn't stop them being slang in English. It's quite common for words to change register when they're adopted from one language into another.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6469 on: 08 May, 2022, 09:58:45 pm »
I'm sure Urban Dictionary is all user generated, ie readers can enter whatever meaning/origin they like and it all goes on the website.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6470 on: 08 May, 2022, 10:30:38 pm »
Peeved means annoyed, OED says

Quote
Originally U.S.

  Irritated, annoyed; put into a peevish mood.

1908   G. V. Hobart Go to It 31   It may be interesting to some people, but it gets me peeved.
1913   C. E. Mulford Coming of Cassidy iv. 71   Jimmy..regarded the peeved proprietor, shaking his head sorrowfully.
1929   A. Conan Doyle Maracot Deep 264   What is up, Jack? You seem peeved this morning.
1975   Daily Mail 13 June 7/4   The agency won't talk about the work; its executives are rather peeved that the news has got out.
2001   T. H. Culley Immortal Class (2002) x. 265   Can a handful of mildly peeved code crunchers constitute a riot?


Derived from peeve:

Quote
Origin: Formed within English, by back-formation. Etymon: peevish adj.
Etymology: Back-formation < peevish adj.
Originally U.S.

 1. transitive. To make peevish; to irritate, annoy.

1901   Naugatuck (Connecticut) Daily News 28 June 1/3   Though it breaks our hearts to go; Our departure should not peeve you, For we're out here to row.
1934   R. Macaulay Going Abroad xvii. 139   I suppose he'd peeved me in some way.
1966   I. Jefferies House-surgeon v. 101   ‘They were peeved, like little school-kids.’.. ‘Who peeved them, Harry?’
2004   Sun (Nexis) 24 Jan.   That's the thing that peeves me whenever they show Besty's six goals. They never show mine as well!


 2. intransitive. To grumble, complain petulantly.
1912   G. Ade Knocking Neighbors 10   The Waiter peeved at being slipped a paltry $1.60.
1923   U. L. Silberrad Lett. Jean Armiter xi. 227   He has a gift of peeving on paper.
1999   J. Crace Being Dead (2000) xii. 98   The committee drifted off, peeving and frowning at the secretary as they passed through her room to collect their coats.

Peevish:

Quote
Forms:  late Middle English peuysche, late Middle English pevys, late Middle English peyuesshe, late Middle English–1500s pevysh, late Middle English–1500s pevyshe, late Middle English (in a late copy)– peevish, late Middle English (in a late copy)– pevish (now nonstandard), 1500s peeuesh, 1500s peeuishe, 1500s penysshe (transmission error), 1500s peuess, 1500s peuissh, 1500s peuisshe, 1500s peuyche, 1500s peuysh, 1500s peuyshe, 1500s peuysshe, 1500s pevysshe, 1500s pieuish, 1500s pieuishe, 1500s piuish, 1500s piuishe, 1500s piuisshe, 1500s pyuyshe, 1500s pyuysshe, 1500s–1600s peeuish, 1500s–1600s peevishe, 1500s–1600s peuish, 1500s–1600s peuishe, 1600s pievish; also Scottish pre-1700 peuische, pre-1700 pevach, pre-1700 pevech, pre-1700 pevis, pre-1700 pevych, pre-1700 pevyche, pre-1700 pewech. (Show Less)
Frequency (in current use):  Show frequency band information
Origin: Of uncertain origin. Perhaps a borrowing from Latin. Etymon: Latin perversus.
Etymology: Origin uncertain; perhaps ultimately < classical Latin perversus via an unattested Old French continuation of the Latin word (which, if it existed, was superseded early in French by the Latin borrowing Old French pervers perverse n.), although this presents some formal difficulties.
An alternative suggestion links the word to classical Latin expavidus startled, shy ( < ex- + pavidus pavid adj.) via an unrecorded variant with -ai- of Middle French espave (of an animal) stray, (of a person) foreign, (as noun) lost property, flotsam (1283 in Old French; French épave ).The semantic connection is thought to be the behaviour of stray animals. Compare -ish suffix1.
 
The exact sense of the adjective in many of the early quots. is difficult to establish.(Show Less)
 A. adj.
Thesaurus »
 

†1. Perverse, refractory; headstrong, obstinate; capricious, skittish; (also) coy. Obsolete.
c1400  (▸?a1387)    W. Langland Piers Plowman (Huntington HM 137) (1873) C. ix. 151   Thenne gan wastour to wratth..And to peers plouhman proferede to fighte, And bad hym go pisse with hus plouh, peyuesshe [v.r. peuysche; c1400 A text pilide; c1400 B text forpynede] shrewe!
1472   J. Paston in Paston Lett. & Papers (2004) I. 576   Item, the prowd, pevyshe, and euyll dysposyd prest to vs all, Syr Jamys, seyth þat ye comandyd hym to delyuer þe book of vij Sagys to my brodyr Water, and he hathe it.
1539   Bible (Great) Cranmer Pref.   Not onely foolyshe frowarde and obstinate but also peuysshe, peruerse and indurate.
a1556   N. Udall Ralph Roister Doister (?1566) iii. iii. sig. E.j   These women be all suche madde pieuish elues, They will not be wonne except it please them selues.
1589   T. Nashe Anat. Absurditie sig. Eii   Nothing is so great an enemie to a sounde iudgment, as the pride of a peeuish conceit.
a1616   W. Shakespeare Two Gentlemen of Verona (1623) v. ii. 47   This it is, to be a peeuish Girle, That flies her fortune when it followes her.  View more context for this quotation
a1669   H. Foulis Hist. Romish Treasons (1671) i. iii. 26   Birds were not so shie and peevish formerly.

(Hide quotations)
 
†2.
Thesaurus »
 

 a. Silly, senseless, foolish. Obsolete.
1519   W. Horman Vulgaria ii. f. 21v   Some make serche and dyuynacion by water, some by basyns,..some by coniuryng of a soule, and suche other: and al be acurst or pyuysshe [L. partim execrabilia, partim mera ludibria].
1567   J. Jewel Def. Apol. Churche Eng. vi. xii. §2. 669   That whole tale..is nothing els, but a peeuishe fable.
1633   J. Ford 'Tis Pitty shee's Whore v. sig. I2 v   This is your peeuish chattering weake old man.
1676   Doctr. of Devils 56   Christ did his Miracles among a peevish, foolish, sottish people, (as the World accounted them).

(Hide quotations)
 
Thesaurus »
Categories »
 

 b. Beside oneself; out of one's senses; mad. Obsolete.
1523   J. Skelton Goodly Garlande of Laurell 266   Some tremblid, some girnid, some gaspid, some gasid, As people halfe peuysshe, or men that were masyd.
1548   N. Udall et al. tr. Erasmus Paraphr. Newe Test. I. Acts xii. 15   [They] aunswered to the mayden, Surely thou arte peuyshe.
1591   J. Lyly Endimion i. i. sig. B   There was neuer any so peeuish to imagin the Moone eyther capable of affection, or shape of a Mistris.

(Hide quotations)
 
Thesaurus »
 

†3. Spiteful, malignant, mischievous, harmful. Obsolete.
a1522   G. Douglas tr. Virgil Æneid (1960) xi. xiv. 111   This ilk Aruns..thys pewech man of weir..schuke in hand hys oneschewabill speir.
1569   R. Grafton Chron. II. 176   In derision of the king, they made certaine peeuishe and mocking rymes which I passe ouer.
1601   J. Marston et al. Iacke Drums Entertainm. ii. sig. D2v   This crosse, this peeuish hap, Strikes dead my spirits like a thunderclap.

(Hide quotations)
 
Thesaurus »
 

†4. Hateful, distasteful, horrid. Obsolete.Used to express a feeling of dislike, hostility, or contempt on the part of the speaker, not necessarily inspired by any quality of the object referred to.
a1522   G. Douglas tr. Virgil Æneid (1960) xi. viii. 78   For thou sal neuer los..Be my wappin nor this richt hand of myne, Sik ane pevyche and cative saule as thyne [L. Nunquam animam talem dextra hac..amittes].
a1535   T. More Dialoge of Comfort (1553) ii. xiiii. sig. H.vii   The woulfe..spied a fayre cowe in a close...as for yonder peuishe cowe semeth vnto me in my conscience worthe not past a grote.
1563   T. Becon Displaying Popish Masse (1637) 299   The Lords Supper and your peevish, popish private masse doe agree together..as the common proverbe is, like harpe and harrow, or like the hare and the hound.

(Hide quotations)
 
 5. Irritable, querulous; childishly fretful; characterized by or exhibiting petty bad temper.
Thesaurus »
 

 a. Of people.In early quots. often referred to as the result of fasting or performing a religious observance of similar rigour.
c1530   Hickscorner D iij   And I sholde do after youre schole, To lerne to patter to make me peuysshe [?1515 peuysse].
1600   W. Shakespeare Merchant of Venice i. i. 86   Why should a man whose blood is warme within, Sit like his grandsire, cut in Alablaster?..And creep into the Iaundies By beeing peeuish?
1653   Bp. J. Taylor Ενιαυτος: Course of Serm. xxxix   Some men fast to mortifie their lust: and their fasting makes them peevish.
1655   in E. Nicholas Nicholas Papers (1897) III. 128   He is uery peuish to Mr. Ouerton and will tell him uery litle.
1702   J. Floyer Anc. Ψυχρολουσία Revived iii. 71   The People grew peevish with all Ancient Ceremonies.
1759   S. Fielding Hist. Countess of Dellwyn I. i. xiv. 149   Now when he was peevish with Pain, and ready to take fire at every the least Provocation, this spirited Reply of his Lady's roused him to Anger.
1786   A. M. Bennett Juvenile Indiscretions V. 216   A peevish discontented sister and her cormorant companion.
1824   W. Irving Tales of Traveller II. 30   A terrible peevish fractious fellow.
1862   B. Brodie Psychol. Inq. II. iii. 77   One whose state of health renders him fretful and peevish in his own family.
1948   ‘R. Crompton’ Family Roundabout xxii. 248   I'm sorry, Arnold, I'm a little peevish today. Yes, I'll go with you.
1956   R. Macaulay Towers of Trebizond xxv. 282   People got peevish, they began hooting and cutting in.
1983   E. Figes Light i. 2   She turned in the bed, sighing, slightly peevish and resentful.

(Hide quotations)
 
Thesaurus »
 

 b. Of personal qualities, actions, behaviour, etc.
1577   W. Fulke Answer True Christian 89 in Two Treat. against Papistes   Without any contention of peuishe enuie.
1650   T. Fuller Pisgah-sight of Palestine iv. iii. 57   Gods providence on purpose permitted Moses to fall into this peevish passion [at Kadesh].
a1677   I. Barrow Serm. Several Occasions (1678) 28   A peevish crosness and obstinate repugnancy to received laws.
1711   R. Steele Spectator No. 107. ⁋1   Unapt to vent peevish Expressions.
1768   D. Garrick Let. 19 Feb. (1963) II. 595   I am Surpriz'd that You have not thank'd the Managers for their kindness instead of writing so peevish a Letter.
1822   W. Hazlitt Table-talk II. iv. 73   With a peevish whine in his voice like a beaten school-boy.
1891   Harper's Mag. Dec. 123/2   His tone was so peevish and impatient that I thought discussion was injudicious.
1922   M. Sinclair Life & Death Harriett Frean xiv. 171   She no longer enjoyed visiting her friends. She set out in peevish resignation.
2003   Daily Mail (Nexis) 9 Dec. 28   Her peevish tone quite spoiled the effect of a comic costume she had selected for the day.

(Hide quotations)
 
Thesaurus »
Categories »
 

†6. English regional (northern). Clever, expert. Obsolete.
1673   J. Ray N. Countrey Words in Coll. Eng. Words 37   Peevish, witty, subtill.
1710   T. Ruddiman in G. Douglas tr. Virgil Æneis (new ed.) Gloss. (at cited word)   The word peevish among the vulgar of Scotland is used for niggardly, covetous; in the North of England, for witty, subtile.

(Hide quotations)
 
Categories »
 

 7. Canadian and English regional (northern). Of the wind: sharp, piercing, bitter. Of the weather: windy, blustery.
1744   J. Armstrong Art of preserving Health i. 17   The ridge..defends you from the blust'ring north, And bleak affliction of the peevish east.
1828   W. Carr Dial. Craven (ed. 2)    Peevish, piercing, very cold; a peevish wind.
1863   Mrs. Toogood Specim. Yorks. Dial.   The wind is very peevish to night.
1927   L. M. Montgomery Emily's Quest 174   Something has happened to sour February's temper. Such a peevish month.
1990   D. McIntosh Visits 119   It was dark when the train arrived in Charlottetown... It was raw and blustery—peevish, they say on the island.

(Hide quotations)
 
†B. adv.
Thesaurus »
Categories »
 

  = peevishly adv. Obsolete. rare.
a1529   J. Skelton Tunnyng of Elynour Rummyng in Certayne Bks. (?1545) 589   She was not halfe so wyse As she was peuysshe nyse [= foolishly particular].
1602   W. Shakespeare Richard III iv. iv. 348   Be not peeuish fond in great designes. [1597 pieuish, fond; 1598 peeuish, fond; Malone conjectured peevish-fond, the reading adopted in many modern editions; the Arden ed. prefers ‘peevish found’.]



Or log in with a library card number, https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/139746?


Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6471 on: 09 May, 2022, 08:08:25 am »
I'm sure Urban Dictionary is all user generated, ie readers can enter whatever meaning/origin they like and it all goes on the website.
Yes. There is an up and down-voting system but people might upvote (or downvote) a word for all sorts of reasons other than accuracy.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.