Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.

[Basil]

Rear lights can also be a problem too these days.  I was quite uncomfortable sitting behind someone on a night ride earlier this year as their rear light (flash mode) was quite searing.
As it was my job to be at the back, I couldn't overtake, so had to ride over on the wrong side of the road. (not particularly hazardous at 4 am out in the sticks)

[Polar Bear]

Different bikes need different angles, and in the case of see-by front lights, faster (or slower-reacting) cyclists like the spot to be further ahead than slower ones.  I certainly would not buy any cycle light that I couldn't set the angle of myself.

Motor vehicle drivers have to...   technically.  Headlights can be adjusted of course but should be set at factory / dealer to conform to the law.   

Rear lights can also be a problem too these days.  I was quite uncomfortable sitting behind someone on a night ride earlier this year as their rear light (flash mode) was quite searing.
As it was my job to be at the back, I couldn't overtake, so had to ride over on the wrong side of the road. (not particularly hazardous at 4 am out in the sticks)

+1 to that.   I'm sure most cyclists are righteously indignant about drivers who have their rear fog lamps on in all conditions.   

[teethgrinder]

what I gather so far (from you guys and other research) is that actually lights at the minute are only 'good' for one type of cycling as different types of cycling have different lighting requirements.. for example mountain biking needs a circular wide spread beam/lens to light up areas and road cycling/ commuting needs a flatter/ squarer beam/lens to focus more on the road. Lights for cyclists who need both of these options on their ride doesn't not exist and they often need to buy two lights, one for each OR make do... and define tally do not exist where they automatically take surroundings into consideration to automatically adjust for on-coming vehicles/pedestrians to reduce 'dazzle' to either you (off signs) or the oncoming traffic.

Looking forward to hearing more guys! Thanks,

Adam

(maybe DeSisti, although will improve on existing products)

I've used top of the range off road lights, cheap Chinese li-ion battery lights and a Schmidt dynamo powered Cyo.

The Exposure Six Pack was (no longer works ) "good" for anything. Absolutely rubbish beam pattern for road, but it was so powerfull that it never needed a good lense. It did need to be pointed down and used in the lowest setting to not dazzle other road users but when nothing else was around, then full beam was more than enough to ride down steep, narrow lanes as fast as you would in daylight. Even medium brightness was enough.
If that light had a decent lense (which I reckon could be made as an optional attachment for road use) then I think that this light could be used at half the brightness of it's lowest setting to give an even better (than the 24 hour) run time.

The cheap Chinese lights I have. I also bought some lenses for those. Not as bright as the Six Pack. Not as good, but excellent value for money, though they are now as good as expired after about a year of use unless I can revive them. My Six Pack lasted about a year or so and died after a lot of riding in the rain. (must get round to sending it off for repair)
So those Chinese lights with an attachment lense made them a very good option for multi use cycling on a budget. The lense gave a very good cut off line, as good as my Cyo, though the Cyo is a much better lense, but then it is a lot more expensive and conforms to German standards.

My Cyo has outlasted every other light I've ever bought. It's great for on road riding. I've never used it for mountain biking.

What would be very good IMO, is if the on/off switch was independent from the dimmer switch. They usualy go through a series, On (full), medium, low, flash, off and are often not very easy to get hold of while cycling.
If the dimmer switch was a 3 /4 way rocker switch, so that it was similar to a downtube gear shifter, it would make life easier.

As outlined above, I think B&M have largely solved the anti-dazzle question with well-designed optics and reflectors.   One big factor though in any light is the actual mounting.   The headlights in cars are supposed to be adjusted not to dazzle but even modern and quite new cars seem to have badly adjusted lights.   

I reckon to solve this you need a universal mounting fitted at the factory in a way that it cannot be moved and then for the lights to have the universal mounting so that when attached they are perfectly positioned.   Add to this a system with a built in dynamo and lights that 'click' and 'lock' into place connecting as they click into place, and you have good lighting, properly positioned and always with power*.

Having a universal mounting system does not prevent competition if the mount is adopted universally in the same way for instance usb is a standard on computers and phones, and the 3 pin plug is a standard on domestic appliances.   The system has to be quick and easy to use but also allow for the lights to be 'locked' in place to avoid casual theft.   This locking process must be very easy and quick for the rightful owner to use for absolute convenience.

Oh, the final hurdle is for this lighting to become legally mandated and thus supplied with all new bicycles and bicycle frames.   

I think that would be very difficult to achieve.

Where do you put that mounting? If it's on the handlebars (actually, it'd probably have to be the stem), then that means no bar bags and possibly no tri bars. I'm really not keen on the idea of mounting lights to forks unless the forks have a braze on. Too much risk of the bracket coming loose and going into the spokes. Or there is the front brake bridge, but they are prone to failure and can be easily bent around.

[Biggsy]

Different bikes need different angles, and in the case of see-by front lights, faster (or slower-reacting) cyclists like the spot to be further ahead than slower ones.  I certainly would not buy any cycle light that I couldn't set the angle of myself.

Motor vehicle drivers have to...   technically.  Headlights can be adjusted of course but should be set at factory / dealer to conform to the law.

I don't have to spell out the differences between cars and bicycles.  You'd need to change some of the differences that we enjoy!

[mattc]

What would be very good IMO, is if the on/off switch was independent from the dimmer switch. They usualy go through a series, On (full), medium, low, flash, off and are often not very easy to get hold of while cycling.

Yes, exactly!

I don't know any cars where you have to turn your lights OFF, when going from full-beam back to dipped 

And yes, they're usually dreadful to use on the bike. I reckon the switches are only ever specced/designed by a bloke at a well-lit desk - without gloves on, of course.

[Pickled Onion]

The schmidt lights have a magnetic reed switch inside with a magnet in a ring on the outside, so there's no need for gap with a seal and no chance of any water getting in. Minimal wear too, and perfectly easy to use with the thickest gloves on. They are quite expensive so I guess this isn't a system that could ever be used on a light costing around a tenner.

[Woofage]

I reckon the switches are only ever specced/designed by a bloke at a well-lit desk - without gloves on, of course.

And tested whilst holding the light with both hands .

[vorsprung]

My Cyo has outlasted every other light I've ever bought. It's great for on road riding. I've never used it for mountain biking.

My two Cyos and B&M IQ Fly have all been excellent

On one of the Cyos, all the black coating flaked off the heat sink.  I disassembled the light, rubbed off the white aluminium powder on the surface and resprayed it with a couple of coats of radiator enamel

[Polar Bear]

Different bikes need different angles, and in the case of see-by front lights, faster (or slower-reacting) cyclists like the spot to be further ahead than slower ones.  I certainly would not buy any cycle light that I couldn't set the angle of myself.

Motor vehicle drivers have to...   technically.  Headlights can be adjusted of course but should be set at factory / dealer to conform to the law.

I don't have to spell out the differences between cars and bicycles.  You'd need to change some of the differences that we enjoy!

What I can imagine is a proper, well-defined, well-engineered minimum lighting standard, not a limiting standard.     Just as car owners adorn their pride and joy with all manner of auxiliary lighting, I see no reason why cyclists should not be able to supplement their lighting, provided it meets legal standards of course.

As an example:   Lots of us here have bought those retina-searing chinese T6 cree lights.   Lots here have also then bought freshnel lenses for the lights to better spread the output and, in the process, reduce potential dazzle to oncoming road users.   

Imagine also a standard mounting system for front and rear lights.   Should you have a light failure for whatever reason you can simply pop into any high street cycle accessory purveyor and buy something to snap into place immediately, be properly adjusted without effort, and be powered from your dynamo if you have one without the need to fiddle with spade connectors, lego blocks or even strands of bell wire.     

I'm very glass half full on this idea.

[Biggsy]

One of the differences between cars and cycles I enjoy is not having shit that I don't like.  Such a standard would limit the design variation of cycles and add cost.  There's no need for it.  It's not like loads of people are being killed as a result of dazzling cyclists.

For a start, the idea is out of the question for handlebar mounted lights because the bar angle can be altered at any time, and I usually do not want front lights anywhere else.

[clarion]

Sometimes, the problem isn't being dazzled:

http://bikeyface.com/2013/11/14/see-the-lights/

[Woofage]

For a start, the idea is out of the question for handlebar mounted lights because the bar angle can be altered at any time, and I usually do not want front lights anywhere else.

Good point. Spirit level?

[Biggsy]

A spirit level* could be a helpful guide (for numpties), but it won't do what I think PB wants: stop people setting it how they like.  The latter would require a braze-on or similar on the frame or forks, because it won't suit all bikes if it just clips on.

* If offset for a downwards tilt in the case of the front light.  Actually, the required angle depends on the height of the bars, let alone the rider's preference.

[Bledlow]

I find teh dazzling lights of cars (particularly larger cars and 4x4s) far more of an issue that misaligned cycle lights - and that's both as a cyclist and a driver.

+1

But I think there is a problem with dazzling bike lights.

[Woofage]

A spirit level* could be a helpful guide (for numpties), but it won't do what I think PB wants: stop people setting it how they like.  The latter would require a braze-on or similar on the frame or forks, because it won't suit all bikes if it just clips on.

No, it won't, but it's an obvious indicator for the total numpty and let's face it, only total numpties have their lights at such wild angles. Well, I hope so.

* If offset for a downwards tilt in the case of the front light.  Actually, the required angle depends on the height of the bars, let alone the rider's preference.

I'm not suggesting that a level bubble means a level light, more that the beam is set within an acceptable range of angles. More experienced/informed riders can make adjustments outside of the range if they feel it improves visibility etc.

[vorsprung]

I find teh dazzling lights of cars (particularly larger cars and 4x4s) far more of an issue that misaligned cycle lights - and that's both as a cyclist and a driver.

+1

But I think there is a problem with dazzling bike lights.

istr that car light on full beam are 1500 lumens.   Current cheapo chinese lights are claiming 3000 lumens.  So in theory, if dazzling by car lights is possible so is dazzling by bike lights.  But I doubt that it's a problem that most people would see that often.  The lights have to be on the high power setting, misadjusted and you have to be heading towards you.    I don't see loads of bikes after dark but I've never come across this.

[drossall]

German regulations have been mentioned. It is worth pointing out that, in general, the cycle light market is not seen as big enough for a UK-only product to be economic. Therefore it's necessary to consider other countries.

[Bledlow]

What would be very good IMO, is if the on/off switch was independent from the dimmer switch. They usualy go through a series, On (full), medium, low, flash, off and are often not very easy to get hold of while cycling.

Yes, exactly!

I don't know any cars where you have to turn your lights OFF, when going from full-beam back to dipped 

And yes, they're usually dreadful to use on the bike. I reckon the switches are only ever specced/designed by a bloke at a well-lit desk - without gloves on, of course.

My Fenix bike light has a switch which is easy to use, even with gloves on. Nice & big, conspicuous, & on the top of the light. It doesn't protrude, so isn't prone to accidentally being switched on or off. It's gently illuminated when the light's on, but not so much that it's distracting. It requires positive pressure to work, but not too much, It cycles through different modes with a single press, & needs a sustained press to switch on or off. When switched off & on, the light comes on at whatever its last setting was. It's a good switch.

Both the last two are the same for my old Dinotte, but that has an inferior switch in some other respects. Harder to switch on or off.

Some other lights I've used have had switches which need too much pressure, perhaps because they protrude, so would be prone to accidental switching on & off if they didn't need a hard press. Cheap Chinese lights (& some not so cheap lights) have the 'feature' you describe, of cycling through 'off' to get to different light levels.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I find teh dazzling lights of cars (particularly larger cars and 4x4s) far more of an issue that misaligned cycle lights - and that's both as a cyclist and a driver.

+1

But I think there is a problem with dazzling bike lights.

istr that car light on full beam are 1500 lumens.   Current cheapo chinese lights are claiming 3000 lumens.  So in theory, if dazzling by car lights is possible so is dazzling by bike lights.  But I doubt that it's a problem that most people would see that often.  The lights have to be on the high power setting, misadjusted and you have to be heading towards you.    I don't see loads of bikes after dark but I've never come across this.

I come across this every single night I cycle home. I usually have to brake to a complete halt until one particular moron has passed, as it is impossible to tell where he is positioned on the cycle path or indeed the location of the path.

[Kim]

I think the important dazzling difference between car lights and bike lights is that car lights have much bigger lenses, so the intensity is lower, even though they're putting out more light.

Engineering issues of LED light sources aside, there's a limit to how big you can reasonably make a bicycle light.  Other than clever alternative shapes like the Fibre Flare, I can't imagine a light with a lens bigger than the infamous Never Ready being practical.  That's still much smaller than a car or motorcycle lamp.

[mattc]

Spot Survey/Anecdata:

This evening I passed perhaps 6 oncoming bikes, probably 60 cars. [this was mostly unlit country-ish roads]

5 of the bikes had brighter lights than the average car.

A few cars had those modern quite narrow central bright spots, a bit annoying but not as bad as the worst bike tonight.

(Luckily the only flashing lights were on sections with bright street-lights. I'd like to think they set them to steady when they reach unlit roads, but I'm not optimistic ... )