GPX OR NOT GPX?

[FifeingEejit]

Indeed, the eTrex isn't a cycling device, it's really designed for Expeditions and navigating where there is no path.
As such it isn't "consumer" electronics, but specialized.

Woah, don't know where you got that idea from? The eTrex is very much a consumer device. I doubt many who go hill walking or geocaching or even cycling with one would say they are on an expedition.; they are just on a day out.   When visibility is poor or it is pouring down or you are in a blizzard or you are on a upland moorland things like waypoints and tracks can serve a very useful purpose. Even just the ability to provide your grid reference to locate yourself on a paper map can be useful in those conditions.

You've never come across someone who thinks hiking is just following the paint splashes on a GR route then?
This is very much the general thinking of people I've met who joined my hiking club after moving to Scotland from mainland europe.

Or the constant reminders that hiking in Scotland where routes aren't marked and you can go anywhere is a much greater undertaking than just a walk on a path?

My thinking on the functions of a pure consumer device may of course differ from your definition.

[Tillapaw]

When visibility is poor or it is pouring down or you are in a blizzard or you are on a upland moorland things like waypoints and tracks can serve a very useful purpose. Even just the ability to provide your grid reference to locate yourself on a paper map can be useful in those conditions.

Completely agree with this, I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be here right now if it weren't for my Garmin GPSmap 62s.  I was hiking at altitude in the Argentinian Andes and got stuck in a snow storm while descending from the summit of Mercedario.  Being able to navigate back to the waypoints we had logged on the ascent made it possible to get off the glacier and back to camp before the effects of exposure kicked in.

[FifeingEejit]

When visibility is poor or it is pouring down or you are in a blizzard or you are on a upland moorland things like waypoints and tracks can serve a very useful purpose. Even just the ability to provide your grid reference to locate yourself on a paper map can be useful in those conditions.

Completely agree with this, I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be here right now if it weren't for my Garmin GPSmap 62s.  I was hiking at altitude in the Argentinian Andes and got stuck in a snow storm while descending from the summit of Mercedario.  Being able to navigate back to the waypoints we had logged on the ascent made it possible to get off the glacier and back to camp before the effects of exposure kicked in.

So expedition or a saunter in the park on well defined routes?

[quixoticgeek]

How's that working out for you QG?
What's your DNF vs validation rate? How many GPS devices have you bought to work this fantastic method? I think you're up to 4 now, is it?

So far:

- DNF (aborted - Too cold) - 200km BRM Feb 2018
- DNF (overtime - puked following swallowing a fly) - 300km BRM April 2018 - Finished in 21 hours 06 minutes. 150km on an empty stomach.
- DNF (not fit enough) - 600km BRM Jun 2018
- DNF (Knee problems, at 210km mark) - 300km BRM Mar 2019.
- DNF (Neck and saddle pain @ 20% distance) - RatN - May 2018

Events completed:

- 2018 - 4 x calendar 200km BRM, 1x calendar 300km BRM, 5x 200km DIY - Total 2100km
- 2019 - 1 x calendar 300km BRM, 5x calendar 200km BRM, 5x 200km DIY - Total 2300km
- 2019 - Race around the Netherlands, 1897km - 199 hours 50 minutes, 2nd placed woman.

Since I started audaxing I have purchased the following cycle specific GPS devices:

- Wahoo Elemnt Bolt - Purchased 2019-05-08

I have another Wahoo Elemnt Bolt, Purchased before I started Audaxing in November 2017.

I also own a Garmin e-Trex 10, but I haven't used it for cycling for over 2 years, and never for an Audax. I purchased it originally for geocaching, and then as a nav device for touring on my Brompton.

I also own a Garmin inreach Explorer+, I use this as a tracking device, and while it is capable of being used for navigation due to having map functionality, I do not use it as such.

I have not had a single ride DNF or DNV due to a navigational device failure. When my Wahoo died on RatN, I fell back to my phone, in a waterproof case, with the GPX trace in OSMAND. Whilst this would be enough to get me home, I decided to throw money at it and get a new wahoo, I'd need one anyway. Fortunately my dead wahoo is alive again, so I now have a spare GPS device for the TCR. Ultraracing is not audax, and the approach of multiple gps devices that I have taken here is not one I think is relevant to an Audax, an audax you are allowed outside assistance, you can ride with other people, and the route is often not mandatory.

Does that answer your question? Do I meet your requirements and approval to be able to have an opinion on this? I know I'm a relative beginner, I know I've only completed 21 Audax events, and 1 ultra race across 3 countries. But is that enough?

I never said anything about elastic bands- we once rode in a group containing a guy who stopped pedalling every time he looked at the route sheet banded on his arm. I was tempted to put a pump through his wheel.
This works. Without a GPS, you've room on the bars.

Where the bloody hell will that go on my bars? it would get in the way of the aero bars...

And while you may not have been the person to suggest that elastic bands for the route sheet, it *HAS* been said in this thread.

The stream of perl you've printed is user error. Routesheets are words. The organiser went to the effort of checking a routesheet that doesn't just show you a line to follow, it tells you what/ how far the next turn is, so you can ignore all the turns for about 10km, and erm, focus on getting those km under your legs.

From one event I did last year:

1,1 (VKL) RD-R Schuinrechts éénrichtingstraat / sens unique (Godetialaan)

From another:

0,8  B/R Vilsteren 7 (fietspad links) 17,0
 VKL's tot voor brug

I dunno how yacf will cope with the special characters, thats a smily face, and a right arrow for the first instruction, and a up arrow for the second one.

Everybody thinks the way they do it is the one true way.
It's not. Just like your bike is not the one true bike.

Excellent, I do love it when people make my point for me. Providing a GPX and a route sheet makes it accessible to those who want to use a GPS, and those who want to use a route sheet. Providing only 1 of them makes it complicated for which ever is left out.

As a newbie, who's started recently, I think that using a bike computer like a wahoo or a bike specific garmin is incredibly easy to use, in fact even using a mobile phone (suitably weather proofed) on a handlebar mount is incredibly easy for most people. A route sheet may as well just be perl as far as I am concerned.

Now, seeing as you have had the audacity to challenge my palmares, to make me justify my point of view, I have questions for you:

How many ultra races have you managed to achieve a podium finish on?

What's the coldest Audax you've completed? How many toes have you had frostbite in?

What's the strongest headwind you've had on an Audax?

How many different countries have you completed an Audax in?

J

[Tillapaw]

So expedition or a saunter in the park on well defined routes?

I think it qualifies as an expedition, there is a trail but it isn't well defined and we lost it on the way up which resulted in a 1000m climb on a scree slope.  That bit took 12 hours.  It's like Aconcagua but without the crowds; we saw 5 other people in the two weeks we were there.  We organised it ourselves, no porters or mules so most of the trip was carrying stuff from camp to camp.

[Ian H]

It's to the organiser's loss to be honest and I really don't understand it... it takes 5 minutes to produce a GPX track and about 3 hours to produce a route sheet...

Researching a route, producing a track, riding & checking it, amending the track, adding waypoints, takes me more than 5mins.  Perhaps I'm doing it wrong.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

This is the UK, not the Russian Steppes or the vast wastelands of Siberia.Even in mid Wales you are rarely more than 10 miles from civilisation.

Even in the middle of Hampshire you can be a couple of miles away from a mobile phone signal, so as a back up map device a phone can be useless.  When it is cold dark and wet, 10 miles is a long way.   

But that's tipping the balance for me, in favour of the GPX as a primary navigation device.  The one time I have gone significantly astray (don't laugh) was on one of my own permanents (the Cambrian 3B).  I'd done my usual prep of working out a route, checking the intersections on Google StreetView etc. 

270km or so into the event I came to a junction that looked familiar, thinking I was getting close to the end, and totally convinced myself that the sign that read "Blaunwaun" actually read "Meidrim".  It's amazing what tricks the mind will play when you just want to get back.  Blindly riding along (without a GPS at the time) I was quite happy until I reached a T-junction instead of a X.  Fortunately (having reccied the route before hand, I had a reasonable understanding of places and names.  My iPhone was useless as there was no signal.

If I'd had my GPS (a more recent addition), it would have bleeped at me like crazy and I would have gone back to the junction. 

How did I make such a mistake (this was part of SR series no 13, so not a novice rider).  I'd started the event at 11.30pm after a days work, not slept, and it had rained on me in an inimitable thick Pembrokeshire drizzle for 8 hours. 

As it was, my pre-ride reconnaissance (I do tend to scan the Ordnance Survey maps which, in the UK are available on Bing Maps - there's a pull down) and so I was aware of the lie of the land and place names.  I knew I had to cut across the grain of the country, so after an unexpectedly beautiful descent and climb, I saw the desired Meidrim on the signposts and headed for that.  So now, even though I do use GPS as my primary device, I do carry the route sheets as a back up and, unless work is manic in the week before, will study the route so that I'm generally aware of where I am.   

[quixoticgeek]

This is the UK, not the Russian Steppes or the vast wastelands of Siberia.Even in mid Wales you are rarely more than 10 miles from civilisation.

Even in the middle of Hampshire you can be a couple of miles away from a mobile phone signal, so as a back up map device a phone can be useless.  When it is cold dark and wet, 10 miles is a long way.   

A mobile phone does not need to have phone signal to be able to work as a navigation device. Apps like OSMand allow you to load that GPX and have offline mapping. You can even operate it in airplane mode, which can make the battery last a lot longer.

But that's tipping the balance for me, in favour of the GPX as a primary navigation device.  The one time I have gone significantly astray (don't laugh) was on one of my own permanents (the Cambrian 3B).  I'd done my usual prep of working out a route, checking the intersections on Google StreetView etc. 

270km or so into the event I came to a junction that looked familiar, thinking I was getting close to the end, and totally convinced myself that the sign that read "Blaunwaun" actually read "Meidrim".  It's amazing what tricks the mind will play when you just want to get back.  Blindly riding along (without a GPS at the time) I was quite happy until I reached a T-junction instead of a X.  Fortunately (having reccied the route before hand, I had a reasonable understanding of places and names.  My iPhone was useless as there was no signal.

Your phone was useless as you hadn't loaded offline mapping data to it. The lack of signal merely made this more pronounced.

J

[FifeingEejit]

So expedition or a saunter in the park on well defined routes?

I think it qualifies as an expedition, there is a trail but it isn't well defined and we lost it on the way up which resulted in a 1000m climb on a scree slope.  That bit took 12 hours.  It's like Aconcagua but without the crowds; we saw 5 other people in the two weeks we were there.  We organised it ourselves, no porters or mules so most of the trip was carrying stuff from camp to camp.

Aye.
I think so too, what's lost on people is heading into the middle of the cairngorm is similarly risky and audacious, we see it as normal and consumer like because its what we are used to.


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[LittleWheelsandBig]

I thought willy-waving was something only blokes did...

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

When visibility is poor or it is pouring down or you are in a blizzard or you are on a upland moorland things like waypoints and tracks can serve a very useful purpose. Even just the ability to provide your grid reference to locate yourself on a paper map can be useful in those conditions.

Completely agree with this, I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be here right now if it weren't for my Garmin GPSmap 62s.  I was hiking at altitude in the Argentinian Andes and got stuck in a snow storm while descending from the summit of Mercedario.  Being able to navigate back to the waypoints we had logged on the ascent made it possible to get off the glacier and back to camp before the effects of exposure kicked in.

Agreed, and very sensible, though it was possible with much simpler technology.  I still don't have a GPS for hiking in Scotland, so if there's any threat of navigation in bad weather, I will have pre-written bearings and distances from known points and be confident about pacing distances to get off the hill safely.  GPS would make it a lot easier and take away the risk of error, but for me (personally) part of the experience and enjoyment of  travel in bad weather was being able to navigate safely and successfully with such simple devices. 

[Kim]

For a new audaxer I'd definitely say stop fukcing about with electronics, just turn up and ride. But, for some new audaxers they think this

a) Because you're stretching the limits of your ability and want to have at least an idea of where the flat/hilly/remote bits are and possible bail-out options.

Turn up and ride is possibly better under those circumstances- you don't know where you are so you *have* to just carry on to the end.

I think it very much depends on the person.  Some people benefit from thinking the top of the hill is just round the next corner.  I do better when I know it's round the corner, another kilometre or so through the trees, and a final steep bit after the T-junction.

The thing I tend to struggle most with on bike rides is pacing, rather than motivation.  I'm generally quite happy to keep plodding until my body rebels, but I'm prone to going too hard early on if I'm not mentally prepared for what's coming.  In the early days this was more about managing my asthma, but excessive cycling seems to have improved my resilience to exercise-induced attacks, and it's more about fatigue and digestion, which are longer-term things.

I've bailed way more rides since I carried escape methodologies than I ever did BITD.

I don't think GPS really counts as an escape methodology, given that even the routesheet users are now carrying a pocket computer that could tell them where the next town is or summon a taxi.

But I tend not to bail rides (not counting those that have been aborted by group consensus because someone else was struggling).  I've DNFed one audax because I was puking my guts up and bonking after the first 90km, and I've hobbled to a station with knee failure halfway through a FNRttC, but in general inertia keeps me going (albeit sometimes quite slowly).  Not having a family member with a car on speed-dial certainly helps, as does riding a bike that's a a PITA to transport other than by riding it^[1].  (Credit where it's due on the two occasions where Mr Arch and nikki OTP rescued me when defeated by lurgy and crash injury respectively.)

The flip side of this is that I'm a bit obsessive about preparation for the things I can control^[2]:  I'm reasonably careful about bike maintenance, carry a decent set of tools and I like to know where I am.  And if my body isn't cooperating on the day, I'll stay at home.  Shit still happens (on a bad day, literally), but it's less to worry about when I'm actually on the bike.


_{[1] I'm much more likely to think about bailing out when I'm riding a Brompton, for reasons that aren't entirely related to how hard work they are to ride...
[2] I'm a child-of-alcoholic cliche in this respect, apparently.}

[FifeingEejit]

When visibility is poor or it is pouring down or you are in a blizzard or you are on a upland moorland things like waypoints and tracks can serve a very useful purpose. Even just the ability to provide your grid reference to locate yourself on a paper map can be useful in those conditions.

Completely agree with this, I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be here right now if it weren't for my Garmin GPSmap 62s.  I was hiking at altitude in the Argentinian Andes and got stuck in a snow storm while descending from the summit of Mercedario.  Being able to navigate back to the waypoints we had logged on the ascent made it possible to get off the glacier and back to camp before the effects of exposure kicked in.

Agreed, and very sensible, though it was possible with much simpler technology.  I still don't have a GPS for hiking in Scotland, so if there's any threat of navigation in bad weather, I will have pre-written bearings and distances from known points and be confident about pacing distances to get off the hill safely.  GPS would make it a lot easier and take away the risk of error, but for me (personally) part of the experience and enjoyment of  travel in bad weather was being able to navigate safely and successfully with such simple devices.

The first time I saw a gps device was when I was hiking with a mate who is really into his gadgets.

I wasn't with him the day he climbed the wrong hill by following his incorrectly set up gps thankfully.

His map reading is equally dubious...



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[quixoticgeek]

I thought willy-waving was something only blokes did...

Assuming this is a response to me responding to an attack. Agreed. But if people are going to suggest that I am not experienced enough to hold the opinion I do, to question what I've done, I'm going to fucking well defend it. The same way I will not be gaslit on twitter, I will not tolerate having my view devalued. Its hard enough taking part in Audaxing as it is, without having my efforts devalued by gatekeepers.

Repeatedly on this forum I've been challenged as not being experienced enough to hold the views I do. Even members on this forum have done so on twitter. I will not accept it. Ever.

J

[Kim]

Everybody thinks the way they do it is the one true way.
It's not. Just like your bike is not the one true bike.

Excellent, I do love it when people make my point for me. Providing a GPX and a route sheet makes it accessible to those who want to use a GPS, and those who want to use a route sheet. Providing only 1 of them makes it complicated for which ever is left out.

This.

And this thread was mostly discussing the best way to provide a GPX, to that end.

[Phil W]

So expedition or a saunter in the park on well defined routes?

I think it qualifies as an expedition, there is a trail but it isn't well defined and we lost it on the way up which resulted in a 1000m climb on a scree slope.  That bit took 12 hours.  It's like Aconcagua but without the crowds; we saw 5 other people in the two weeks we were there.  We organised it ourselves, no porters or mules so most of the trip was carrying stuff from camp to camp.

Aye.
I think so too, what's lost on people is heading into the middle of the cairngorm is similarly risky and audacious, we see it as normal and consumer like because its what we are used to.


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Heading into the Cairngorms is still not an expedition.  You will be saying map and compass are a pure expedtion item next, as everything else is a walk in the park, and doesn't require that kind of nonsense.

If anyone tells me they are off on an expedition to climb Ben Macdui they can fook right off and stick their flag where the sun don't shine..

Consumer GPS has been around for approx 20 years now. Time we moved on.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

QG, you and everybody else can have whatever opinions you like. I tend to learn more from the stories of the folk who've made a wide variety of mistakes over many years but YMMV.

[Kim]

Of course the eTrex is a consumer item.  You can tell by the price:features ratio, and the rate at which they are superseded by new models.

[quixoticgeek]

QG, you and everybody else can have whatever opinions you like. I tend to learn more from the stories of the folk who've made a wide variety of mistakes over many years but YMMV.

Good, then perhaps people can stop asking me to demonstrate my experience in order to justify my opinions?

J

[lmm]

To the extent that an organiser thinks a warning like "this is the last shop for 20k" (say) is warranted, I'd submit that this can be offered as a GPX waypoint just as well as on a routesheet.

I like to eyeball the route a little and see where nearby stations are (and find the controls and mark them myself if they're not marked already). I'm not sure I'd bother doing that on a routesheet-only ride as it would be significantly harder.

The AUK mission statement is to promote long-distance cycling. IMO that's better served by GPX than routesheets these days, in terms of the majority of the potential audience. While I wouldn't suggest that organisers should be obliged to provide GPX if they don't want to, shouldn't the same logic apply to routesheets as well?

[wilkyboy]

To the extent that an organiser thinks a warning like "this is the last shop for 20k" (say) is warranted, I'd submit that this can be offered as a GPX waypoint just as well as on a routesheet.

There seems to be a mismatch between belief and actuality with regard to GPS devices.  In relation to your comment — you COULD add that to a TCX CoursePoint and load it up on a Garmin Edge device, but only the first 10 characters would display, and it can be tricky to communicate detailed or subtle information in so few characters.  Which would be next to useless — "lastshop20".

Whereas on the routesheet it can be written in plain English.

[Exit Stage Left]

Of course all Audax rides should have a GPs compatible file available. But is that what the OP was asking for?  It seems to me that John was asking for a list of Audax rides, with accompanying GPX files on YACF.

Is that a good idea, or should it be in a member section of the AUK website, if it should exist at all?

Some people like gpx files/devices and those that more than don't like! I'm sure everyone has an opinion.

I have to use computer/gpx due to mental issues, PTSD means I forget what I read, almost immediately plus get stressed!

Is it possible, that someone can organise a section in this website, for all Audax rides to be listed with a gpx file? Is it something that anyone else, would find helpful  or offensive!?
Would the organisers, that do so much already, find it helpful?
If I was capable, I would try to do it, but its not likely.

[Somnolent]

The AUK mission statement is to promote long-distance cycling. IMO that's better served by GPX than routesheets these days, in terms of the majority of the potential audience. While I wouldn't suggest that organisers should be obliged to provide GPX if they don't want to, shouldn't the same logic apply to routesheets as well?

Nope.  Paper routesheets are accessible to the greater proportion of the potential audience. 
That most of them now prefer GPX to paper (or for one reason or another are unable to use paper) is a great argument for encouraging organisers to provide some form of GPX support - but as an add-on, not as a replacement to paper.

But the ability to filter the calendar to exclude routes that don't include GPX tracks is a perfectly reasonable request, one that will no doubt get fed back to the IT team when they start work on redeveloping the events system.

[Ajax Bay]

But the ability to filter the calendar to exclude routes that don't include GPX tracks is a perfectly reasonable request, one that will no doubt get fed back to the IT team when they start work on redeveloping the events system.

"Perfectly reasonable request" but how many different filters does the potential searcher/filterer need? Having/not having a route described by a organiser-provided gpx must be down the hierarchy of filter priority. What about one which can filter out events which demand mudguards? Wouldn't this rate higher in the requirements the 'IT team' is seeking individually to satisfy?

[mattc]

IME an amazing number of organisers turn out to be left-right dyslexic, at least a GPX track solves that problem!

I'll put my hand up to that one!

I just can't decide which hand ...

  [as it happens, I'm not left-right dyslexic, but I *still* managed to make that error on my first 400k routesheet draft  Fixed on the route-check, thank deity ... ]

But doesn't this raise the spectre of incorrect GPX files? Even if the org is competent at creating them, it's another source of error. Routes almost always change between first inception and the kick-off - is the GPX sent to riders the current version? Did you update the waypoint for Info #2 ?? etc ...

I would rather get a correct routesheet and no GPX than a ropey version of either. All these lovely techies on the internet will crowdsource a file for us - shirley?!?