+ size women want their own clothing range designed

[Noodley]

I reckon, but this is only a reckon, that men don't vary in shape so much as women..

I reckon you are wrong.  Why would there be a difference? 

[Jaded]

I am not suggesting we ridicule all fat people but we do seem to gradually be accepting that it is okay to be fatter.

Shouldn't we be accepting that it's ok for people to be anything as long as they're not hurting someone else?

I'd suggest that it's OK for people to be anything as long as they're not adversely affecting someone else.

Yes, there are people who have medical conditions which cause excess weight gain, or which make it particularly difficult to lose weight, but these are relatively few and far between.  I'm afraid in the majority of cases it is the excess weight that causes the health problems, not the other way round, and the obesity is linked purely to excess calorie intake or a lack of exercise.

And I'm afraid that clinically obese people do adversely affect other people.  Whilst it is nice to think that we should allow everyone to live their lives as they wish, we have to remember that 'no man is an island' and there is such a thing as society.  Obesity and its related impacts cost the NHS and social services billions each year. Obesity and obesity related health issues will soon overtake smoking as the primary cause of disability and preventable deaths in the UK.  

The extra demands on the NHS and social servies means that it adversely impacts upon the taxpayer - you and me.  At least smokers pay into the Treasury much, much more than they eventually cost the NHS, etc.

I'm a fat bugger.  I've really put on weight after spending several years on steroids - but I have to admit that the reason the weight is still on is that I eat too much, drink too much and don't get enough exercise.

I struggle to lose weight and know how soul-destroying it can be.  So I empathise and sympathise with those who find it difficult.  But I also get annoyed when people try to suggest that we should 'normalise' obesity - it doesn't do anyone any favours.

+1

[Cudzoziemiec]

I reckon, but this is only a reckon, that men don't vary in shape so much as women..

I reckon you are wrong.  Why would there be a difference? 

Men don't have so many curves to vary! No breasts, generally smaller bums, it's more a question of height and waist. With two variables there's bound to be less variation, surely? Note that I am talking about shape, not size.

[Sergeant Pluck]

Well said above, Regulator.

In addition to Reg's comments on the wider effects, I think one of the dangers of the normalisation of obesity is that it encourages people to fail to consider the effect of obesity at an individual level as they get older. My work is mainly in the area of cardiovascular disease. I meet people on a daily basis who are really suffering in their later years (and, increasingly, not much "later" at all) from the problems caused by obesity. Diabetes, coronary artery disease etc often alongside physical problems like knee, hip and spine problems that arise from the extra loads. Life as a slightly older overweight person is often not a happy one, with mobility problems making it extremely difficult to do day-to-day things never mind burn off fat.

[Biggsy]

It's worse for skinny people in a way.  It's more acceptable to make fun of them, yet it's just as offensive.  And it's just as embarrassing to be skinny.  Swimming would be really good for me, but I don't do it because I'm embarrassed about my body.

Ah but it could be argued skinny people bring that on themselves just as much as larger people.

If they should just "calories in < calories out" then all a skinny person needs to do is calories in > calories out plus some weights and if they choose not to then that's their own choice (and so we chould feel just as free to mock skinny people too)! 

P.S. I'm not having a go at you here Biggsy, just in general at the people that think mocking anyone is acceptable.

I'll have a go at myself then

I could put on weight with a more efficient diet, despite having an abnormal stomach.  I shouldn't be mocked for that, but don't mind anyone pointing it out.

[bobb]

Bobb... At risk of sounding offensive, but without wanting to be, I will say this. You do drink a large amount of alcohol a large amount of the time. Though I don't know you I do know, just through living in a Polish village where it's the norm for most of the adult male population, a lot of people who are habitual drunkards (and many, even most, of them ride bikes!) and every single one of them is skinny. Skinny is not the norm for Polish villagers who do not drink all day every day (and double on Sundays). You may not be in the same condtion as them, but I don't think you'd want to head that way either.

To go back off topic....

Cudz, I'm not offended, but I would like to point out that I don't drink all day every day!

Also, my sister who is 40 and has had 2 children is still super skinny. And she hardly drinks at all and never has. It's in our genes. Or should that be (difficult to get decent fitting) jeans? 

OK, as you were...

[Hot Flatus]

Picking up on Reg's comment about normalising obesity, it all came about during the 80's and 90's, when monster sized portions of everything: ice-cream, meals, chocolate bars, soft drinks etc became available. Noticed how small a Topic bar looks these days?

With that out went the notion of greed. It's funny, but I can't remember the last time I saw an overweight stuffing their face with a ridiculous amount of food and thought "my, you are greedy".  It has become acceptable, and even normal. Even our notion of what constitutes overweight seems to have changed

I understand Kirsts point about leaving people be if they aren't affecting others, but I'm not sure it is so clear cut. I still find greed pretty repugnant.

[Tewdric]

Well said Regulator.  I was going to try to post something similar but couldn't have done so as eloquently, or acceptably.

[bobb]

Talking of portion sizes; I remember the first time I went to the US of A, we went out for a meal and ordered. When my starter arrived it was main meal sized. By the time I'd nomed through it, I was absolutely stuffed! When my main course arrived I just picked at it as it was enough to feed the 5000. I didn't bother with dessert....

[hellymedic]

I reckon, but this is only a reckon, that men don't vary in shape so much as women..

I reckon you are wrong.  Why would there be a difference? 

Men mostly wear what women's fashion call 'separates'. There is no assumption that if you have, for example a 40 inch chest, you will have a 34" waist or 32" inner leg. You can buy a jumper to fit your chest and trousers to fit waist and legs. This is not usually a size n. Stock sizing and shaping is part of the problem.

The other part of the problem is 'curviness'. Some women have big breasts, some don't, all on the same sized thorax. And then there's the huge variation in hip size for a given waist size...

I thought amost everyone knew this...

[Tewdric]

I reckon, but this is only a reckon, that men don't vary in shape so much as women..

I reckon you are wrong.  Why would there be a difference? 

Men mostly wear what women's fashion call 'separates'. There is no assumption that if you have, for example a 40 inch chest, you will have a 34" waist or 32" inner leg. You can buy a jumper to fit your chest and trousers to fit waist and legs. This is not usually a size n. Stock sizing and shaping is part of the problem.

The other part of the problem is 'curviness'. Some women have big breasts, some don't, all on the same sized thorax. And then there's the huge variation in hip size for a given waist size...



I thought amost everyone knew this...

Yeah I've never understood the system.  It also leads to everyting being recycled between loads of women whilst still, alledgedly, new.  Mrs T's by no means indecisive or fussy, but I think she sends or takes back 50% of the clothes she buys.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Yes, there are people who have medical conditions which cause excess weight gain, or which make it particularly difficult to lose weight, but these are relatively few and far between.  I'm afraid in the majority of cases it is the excess weight that causes the health problems, not the other way round, and the obesity is linked purely to excess calorie intake or a lack of exercise.

And I'm afraid that clinically obese people do adversely affect other people.  Whilst it is nice to think that we should allow everyone to live their lives as they wish, we have to remember that 'no man is an island' and there is such a thing as society.  Obesity and its related impacts cost the NHS and social services billions each year. Obesity and obesity related health issues will soon overtake smoking as the primary cause of disability and preventable deaths in the UK.  

The extra demands on the NHS and social servies means that it adversely impacts upon the taxpayer - you and me.  At least smokers pay into the Treasury much, much more than they eventually cost the NHS, etc.

What about fat smokers? Or motorists, or intravenous drug users, heavy drinkers, or rugby players who end up with spinal injuries? It's not good for people to be morbidly obese, and yes, it's dangerous to their health, but it's their business, not ours. I don't have the right to tell motorists to sell their car and get a bike because they're causing health problems for themselves and people breathing in their emissions, so what gives anyone else the right to tell a fat person to get jogging? People are judgemental about fat and fat people in a way they're generally not about other health hazards. People think they have the right to tell fat people to sort themselves out, in a way they wouldn't dream of in other circumstances.

Talking of portion sizes; I remember the first time I went to the US of A, we went out for a meal and ordered. When my starter arrived it was main meal sized. By the time I'd nomed through it, I was absolutely stuffed! When my main course arrived I just picked at it as it was enough to feed the 5000. I didn't bother with dessert....

Oh yes, American portion sizes are massive. Ridiculously big. It seems to be the norm there for restaurants to give you enough for two meals and people take half of it home. They don't seem to realise though, how big their portions are. I can't remember who was telling me about someone complaining she couldn't lose weight even though she'd been sticking to low fat this and low calorie that - but the yoghurt pot she was eating from was nearly a pint. But she thought that was ok because it was low fat.

[GruB]

Above thread somewhat I posted a story about 2 fat people eating kebabs and being ridiculed and abused by 3 people.  It is not right, not fair and cruel.  The 3 were prosecuted for Section 5 Disorderly Behaviour.

I agree with the prosecution.

[Tewdric]

, or rugby players who end up with spinal injuries?

Or cyclists who get knocked off..

[Hot Flatus]

The reason why being fat is not accepted is because it takes greediness to get there.

Rugby players get injured in the course of a valiant display of athletic prowess (even though, on a sub professional level, many of them are also fat)
 

[Regulator]

Yes, there are people who have medical conditions which cause excess weight gain, or which make it particularly difficult to lose weight, but these are relatively few and far between.  I'm afraid in the majority of cases it is the excess weight that causes the health problems, not the other way round, and the obesity is linked purely to excess calorie intake or a lack of exercise.

And I'm afraid that clinically obese people do adversely affect other people.  Whilst it is nice to think that we should allow everyone to live their lives as they wish, we have to remember that 'no man is an island' and there is such a thing as society.  Obesity and its related impacts cost the NHS and social services billions each year. Obesity and obesity related health issues will soon overtake smoking as the primary cause of disability and preventable deaths in the UK.  

The extra demands on the NHS and social servies means that it adversely impacts upon the taxpayer - you and me.  At least smokers pay into the Treasury much, much more than they eventually cost the NHS, etc.

What about fat smokers? Or motorists, or intravenous drug users, heavy drinkers, or rugby players who end up with spinal injuries? It's not good for people to be morbidly obese, and yes, it's dangerous to their health, but it's their business, not ours. I don't have the right to tell motorists to sell their car and get a bike because they're causing health problems for themselves and people breathing in their emissions, so what gives anyone else the right to tell a fat person to get jogging? People are judgemental about fat and fat people in a way they're generally not about other health hazards. People think they have the right to tell fat people to sort themselves out, in a way they wouldn't dream of in other circumstances.

Sorry Kirst but that's complete tosh.  If you can't understand that personal decisions impact on everyone then I'm sorry...

As it is, we are telling people to use their cars less and to cycle/walk more, we are telling people to drink less, and the main basis on which many drugs are banned is their deleterious effects on health.

And comparing an injury incurred in a sporting activity to overeating is just silly.

[nutkin]

Whilst the medical-type folk have made good ponts about the health implications of being overweight (and these can't really be disputed) I don't think it is either right or fair to dictate what clothes are available to them. If the only thing you can buy is a shapeless pair of jogging bottoms (oh, the irony!) then you're hardly likely to want to be seen in them. So, instead, you sit at home, watching tv and eating...

As for Mrs PColbeck & Mrs Grub, sadly it seems that in many places the only way to get a well-fitting, appropriately styled garment in the smaller sizes is to head for the designer lines. The clothes may be lovely, but boys you may have to sacrifice the next n+1 to fund this!

[bobb]

And comparing an injury incurred in a sporting activity to overeating is just silly.

Although if you injure yourself through sport, you can at least have the excuse of "I'm getting some exercise". But have you ever been in A & E on a Sunday afternoon? It's full of local league footballers with busted ankles and stuff.

I've been to hospital many times and I've definitely been in for sporting injuries more times than pissed injuries. All at the cost of the good old tax payer....

[Regulator]

And comparing an injury incurred in a sporting activity to overeating is just silly.

Although if you injure yourself through sport, you can at least have the excuse of "I'm getting some exercise". But have you ever been in A & E on a Sunday afternoon? It's full of local league footballers with busted ankles and stuff.

I've been to hospital many times and I've definitely been in for sporting injuries more times than pissed injuries. All at the cost of the good old tax payer....

You must be going to a very odd A&E then bobb...   

...as the statistics will tell you that the largest single reason for A&E attendance is over consumption of alcohol.

[Regulator]

Anyhooooooo, I'm off to get some exercise taming the jungle digging over the allotment.

[bobb]

Statistics, statistics. They're all made up  

I know, but surely your statistics must show sporting injuries to be fairly high on the list?

Edit: Don't put a fork through your foot!

[Regulator]

Statistics, statistics. They're all made up  

I know, but surely your statistics must show sporting injuries to be fairly high on the list?

Sporting injuries are quite high on the list - but they also tend to be relatively easy (and cheap) to fix and few of them have lasting effects.  Yes - people to get seriously injured, but devastating injuries are few and far between, even in games such as rugby.

The effects of obesity tend to be insidious and long term, requiring continuous treatment.

Anyhow, Mr R is tapping his foot impatiently so I must away...

[hellymedic]

Statistics, statistics. They're all made up  

I know, but surely your statistics must show sporting injuries to be fairly high on the list?

Edit: Don't put a fork through your foot!

A Sunday afternoon represents one forty-second of the week (4/168). Alcohol-related problems present all the time: day, night, weekday, weekend...
...and are often more complex problems than a simple twisted limb.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Sorry Kirst but that's complete tosh.  If you can't understand that personal decisions impact on everyone then I'm sorry...

Of course I understand that personal decisions can affect other people. But my point is that people are judged far more harshly for obesity than for other behaviours which affect health. People seem to behave as if fat people don't know they're fat and as if they have the right to comment.

[GruB]

Denial?  How can a fat person, one that is morbidly obese actually eat a kebab?
Is it because they are in denial of the effect it will have upon their already overweight body.
In for a penny and in for a pound.

Our society is also not designed for overly large people.  Doors for instance are only so wide.  Hospital trolleys.  Seats in buses.  Seats anywhere for that matter.

So aside from the clothing available we had better start redesigning our world if we are going to accept that people are getting bigger and that it is okay.