Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: ScumOfTheRoad on 28 February, 2021, 05:35:15 pm
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I have to get this off my chest. I drive a car in London, have had a licence for 40 years (yeah I know - do I wear a pork pie hat).
Recently I have noticed many more delivery drivers on mopeds. They are a menace. They will cut up your inside to gain seconds and really look like they don't know the dangers of being sideswiped.
Nowt wrong with courier riders etc. - it just seems these ar youths sent out on rickety mopeds with no idea of the 'rules of the road' (yeah my pork pie hat is showing).
Electric scooters are getting bad too. I've seen a few doing idiotic things on the road, like crossing junctions when it suits them and weaving across the road.
You would feel awful if you hit one but again they seem oblivious to the normal rules of the road.
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Having said what I just said abotu scooters and mopeds, I witnessed several acts of really bad agressive driving today. So much tat I wonder seriously if the drivers are on drugs. Both times small hot hatch types. First one was on my inside as mr delivery scooter passed me. The hot hatch guy proceeded to overtake moped, which gained him first place at a red light. Which he ignored and took a left anyway. A screaming hurry for something - I really wonder if drug induced.
Second incident at a miniroundabout near my home. I know there is an active 20mph speed camera jsut after this roundabout. I am at the back of a three car queue going onto the roundabout, on the other side there is a bus approaching. Chappig in a small Merc an't be bothered to wait, so overtakes the three of us,
enters the mini roundabout by the exit lane then straight lines it. Horrifically aggressive driving.
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You would feel awful if you hit one but again they seem oblivious to the normal rules of the road.
They think they're invincible, just because they're from the future. (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=117026.0)
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Since I learned to calm down and not give a FF about anyone else's behaviour on the road* I've found driving, cycling and motorcycling* so much less stressful. It's a bloomin' hard thing to do, but learning the art of zen is well worth it.
*But...... I agree that there is a huge potential problem building up around electric scooter riding.
*As a pedestrian (I can't do zen on two feet) the riders have the potential to seriously piss me off, almost as much as pavement parkers.
The genie is out of the bottle as regards these scooters, and I don't know what the answer (or quite what the question) is.
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The genie is out of the bottle as regards these scooters, and I don't know what the answer (or quite what the question) is.
Cycle infrastructure that's so good people actually use it?
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That sounds good, Kim but I don't think it can survive the electric scooters. Here in Rochdale the council has been very pleased to announce that some firm is coming to our town to set up an electric scooter hire scheme which the council thinks will "revolutionise" commuting and bring the green economy here from Southend, where it currently lives. This is the same council that removed the Sheffield stands and created motor-bike parking instead and permitted the intro duction of a Metro system on which you can't take a bike. It'll certainly revolutionise commuting but in the way the Panzer tank revolutionised the golf-buggy. The councillor "responsible" says that the scooters will be limited to 15 mph. Has he any idea how lethal a silent 15mph will be in a bike lane - or on a pavement? I've green-inked the department but I don't hold out much hope of being taken seriously as I'm "known" to the authorities round here. I'm with the relevantly but unfortunately named SOTR on this!
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That sounds good, Kim but I don't think it can survive the electric scooters. Here in Rochdale the council has been very pleased to announce that some firm is coming to our town to set up an electric scooter hire scheme which the council thinks will "revolutionise" commuting and bring the green economy here from Southend, where it currently lives.
Probably Voi? There's a thread about them here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=116116.0
We've had them in Brum since some point last year, and there's been a surge in popularity since they expanded the operating zone to areas where people actually live. As a general rule, the main hazard posed by the hire scooters is when they're left cluttering the pavement between uses (which is a real problem), with the majority of scooter chaos being perpetrated on unlicensed privately-owned ones. Surprisingly few have ended up in the canal (or they've worked out how to waterproof them).
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Has he any idea how lethal a silent 15mph will be in a bike lane - or on a pavement?
About the same as a bicycle ridden at a very achievable 15 mph?
The main problem with non-car forms of transport is that we give over almost all of our urban space to empty seaters and forced everyone else to contest the same small areas. Our rules of the road are designed for motorists to be able to get where they're going at the maximum speed while paying as little attention to their surroundings as possible.
Drive your car in a busy urban area like it doesn't belong there, like you've accidentally driven a tank into a school playground, and you'll be fine.
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Yeah, cycling amongst scooters is almost but not quite entirely like cycling amongst cyclists. The only substantive difference is that scooters tend not to be faster than me, and that you can't infer the power output (or absence thereof) of a distant scooter rider from leg movement.
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They will cut up your inside to gain seconds and really look like they don't know the dangers of being sideswiped.
I spent a few years in the 90s as a motorcycle courier (and occasional van driver). I'd say there's some truth in this. It's a job where time really is money – paid per delivery and doing this delivery faster means you'll get the next one a bit sooner. As for the danger of being sideswiped, the time pressure (or perception of pressure) pushes you to take small risks. You get away with them so you take more.
However, I think there's something extra with the current wave of delivery scooters. Back then, there was no one doing it who didn't have a full licence and a few years' experience in the relevant vehicle. Almost all the Deliveroo etc riders are on L plates. Some of them might be using a car licence as a provisional moped licence but many of them probably have only CBT (compulsory basic training, riding around cones and stuff). They actually don't know the rules of the road and more importantly don't have the experience of the rules people actually follow. (What puzzles me is why so many of them ride with one foot stuck out to the side.)
But also, it's the visibility problem. Scooters (all types) get noticed, so we remember their bad behaviour. And most people aren't expecting their normal behaviour, because most people aren't used to the way a two-wheeler (however powered) moves, so they are liable to misinterpret that.
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Lots of e-scooters here and I haven't encountered or seen any problems with them. Except when parked in inconsiderate places (many of which are the official deposit points... )
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I sincerely hope people are right about the lack of problem with e-scooters. However, we try to make cycling inclusive, no? I have been a cyclist a long time and still am. To say that 15mph is easily achievable on a bike is a bit glib. I don't know how old you are, grams. I can still easily achieve 15mph on a bike, but the people we want to encourage to start cycling generally won't be - and generally I don't because I use the cycle lanes for transport, not training, and I'm 75 (there, I've said it). and Rochdale is hilly. Oh, by the way, silent cyclists are a bloody menace, too!
Kim, I'm glad if the scheme seems to work to some extent in Mordor. I think the proliferation of unlicensed ones is inevitable and that they'll probably be a real problem on dedicated cycle lanes because they'll spook the dogs which are the rightful occupants of the space.
I'll have a look and see if Voi is our huckleberry, but it doesn't ring a bell............!
Peter
Edit: I ought to say that I'm in favour of the principle of reducing car journeys. But when dealing with council commercial and planning decisions it is always a sound approach to look for problems - especially where concessions and quid pro quos are involved.
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To say that 15mph is easily achievable on a bike is a bit glib. I don't know how old you are, grams. I can still easily achieve 15mph on a bike, but the people we want to encourage to start cycling generally won't be - and generally I don't because I use the cycle lanes for transport, not training, and I'm 75 (there, I've said it). and Rochdale is hilly.
Hilly is what means that most people can easily achieve 15mph on a bike. In the right direction.
It's flat that keeps the cycling speeds low.
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Certainly true. But not bikes/scooters with motors - which is what would cause the problem, because, on average you're always going to be in front of one that is wanting to get past at some stage. If you could rely on them to use a bell or voice to let you know, fine, but I won't be holding my breath, partly because I have COPD (apparently) but mostly because real cyclists can be very bad in this respect, too.
I admit it - my arthritis is playing up, typing hurts and I'm seeing the dark side - and not in a lying-down stylee!
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Gotta say one of the reasons the e-scooters aren't a problem in cycle lanes here in Bristol is because of the lack of cycle lanes. Which is itself just a symptom of the general lack of non-car space. I rode through a tennis match today. No, not mid-serve. Family tennis game on one of the feeder paths into the cycle path (converted railway). Why were they playing there? Because there's nowhere else that's suitable and near enough.
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Lots of e-scooters here and I haven't encountered or seen any problems with them. Except when parked in inconsiderate places (many of which are the official deposit points... )
I wonder if there is more compliance with the rulez and 'better behaviour' in locations where therer is a formal hire scheme.
Here in suburban Leicester the issue (for me) is children and student-types (that sort of age) riding them on pavements - I've not seen one on the road round here.
By contrast on the couple of very brief visits I've made to Northampton Central the hire scooters seem to be being used on the roads, and I've not /noticed/ any being ridden on the pavement.
Maybe it's peer pressure setting an example?
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Hmm, could be. The hire ones (for the Voi scheme, there might be other schemes) are all tracked, in theory, and traceable to an individual hirer at a particular time and place. Which doesn't stop them doing things which I'd class as "silly but harmless" like giving a mate on a skateboard a tow up a hill, but does seem to mostly keep them on the roads. But then 15mph isn't that far off the moving speed of most traffic in the centre of Bristol anyway.
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As if by magic....
https://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/139565/65yearold-man-hospitalised-after-collision-with-electric-scooter (https://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/139565/65yearold-man-hospitalised-after-collision-with-electric-scooter)
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As if by magic....]
It doesn't say if the crash happened on the road or the pavement, and a quick Google can't tell me if there's a hire scheme in the area (although I suspect not).
I'm going to sound more than a bit contradictory here, but - is this newsworthy because it's an electric scooter, and would the paper have covered it the same way if the injuries had been caused by a car?
As I said up there these things annoy me intensely when ridden on pavements inappropriately but I don't want to lose sight of the danger, inconvenience and other issues relating to four wheeled vehicles on pavements.
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Mike, reply 5 above refers. It's why I'm concerned that the council understands the possibilities BEFORE being swept off their feet by the firm wanting the business. The report indicates what these machines can do in the wrong hands. Of course cars can cause the same havoc but, also, of course, the news outlet would have reported it in the same way - it's a straightforward enough piece of reporting; it's says the scooter-rider didn't stop presumably because they didn't, not because the vehicle was a scooter. It would have said the same if a car had been involved. I think the piece shows basic concern for the victim, who seems to be in a bad way.
This man has been hospitalised by a scooter, or more correctly by it's rider - how is that less important than being hospitalised by a driver? I share your concern about the way cars are driven, believe me - but the thread is about e-scooters and mopeds.
All the best
Peter
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The report indicates what these machines can do in the wrong hands.
This is an odd forum for demanding bicycles be banned.
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Who said anything about bicycles? ???
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Has the scooter hire scheme in Rochdale been established yet - from your reply it seems not?
I don't really see how someone using an illegal machine to injure a pedestrian should restrict the establishment of a pilot scheme to explore the use of legal scooters, with restricted top speed, insurance and a minimum driver licensing requirement. Doesn't it just illustrate the need to explore how scooters can be used and licensed and where they should be allowed to operate?
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Has the scooter hire scheme in Rochdale been established yet - from your reply it seems not?
I don't really see how someone using an illegal machine to injure a pedestrian should restrict the establishment of a pilot scheme to explore the use of legal scooters, with restricted top speed, insurance and a minimum driver licensing requirement. Doesn't it just illustrate the need to explore how scooters can be used and licensed and where they should be allowed to operate?
No, Duncan, it hasn't, but has been "offered" and is under serious consideration. My communications with the council have been concerning the regulated maximum speed of 15mph, which I think is too high, given where these machines may well end up being ridden. I have no quarrel at all with your suggestions!
Still didn't mention bicycles, though......!
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Has the scooter hire scheme in Rochdale been established yet - from your reply it seems not?
I don't really see how someone using an illegal machine to injure a pedestrian should restrict the establishment of a pilot scheme to explore the use of legal scooters, with restricted top speed, insurance and a minimum driver licensing requirement. Doesn't it just illustrate the need to explore how scooters can be used and licensed and where they should be allowed to operate?
No, Duncan, it hasn't, but has been "offered" and is under serious consideration. My communications with the council have been concerning the regulated maximum speed of 15mph, which I think is too high, given where these machines may well end up being ridden. I have no quarrel at all with your suggestions!
Still didn't mention bicycles, though......!
Might be worth pointing out that the version in Oxford has a maximum speed of 10mph?
The non hire ones can be modified to go much faster than 15mph (and if you buy from China direct I suspect you can get a derestricted one without having to modify it), though it seems that if you buy one now, it's restricted to that limit. I think they have just borrowed the 15mph limit from e-bikes - there may be a slippery slope where any limit that scooters get is retro-actively applied to e-bikes (and obviously e-bikes can be modified to do >15mph).
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Is the Oxford scheme Voi? The Vois in Bristol were restricted to 10mph initially, which seemed odd, but it was an initial phase and was raised to the standard 15mph "once people were used to the scheme" which I expect meant in practice once non-hirers were used to seeing scooters rather than the hirers were used to the incredible speed.
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The 25kph e-bike limit is based on a reasonable speed for a bicycle to go, and I agree it's a good middle ground - much slower than a fit cyclist can manage on the flat, or any cyclist can manage downhill (so within the speed envelope a cyclist will be used to controlling a bike), but fast enough to make decent progress as a practical form of transport. It's also a fast running speed, which we've evolved to survive a fall at without serious injury. The SCIENCE shows that e-bike accidents are due to them enabling people with little cycling experience and/or strength and balance impairments to use bikes, which they then fall off at low speed and when mounting/dismounting/doing unwise things with luggage, not due to their cruising speed being higher than typical unassisted utility cyclists.
Scooters, wheelchairs[1] and other personal electric mobility devices should, in my mind, be subject to the same restrictions for the same reasons, unless they're of a design that precludes efficient braking, where a lower speed seems reasonable. It's about predictability for other road users.
As cyclists we know that banning things simply because they're unusual and a visible minority use them recklessly is not the way to go. We shouldn't get jealous that scooters (both powered and unpowered) are currently fashionable and bicycles are not. They're all one less car, and should be encouraged. The leap from a scooter to a pedal cycle is much less than that from a car or bus.
The Rochdale story could easily be about a bicycle collision. We don't know the circumstances, other than that the operator of the faster vehicle should be considered responsible by default. Leaving the scene of the accident is clearly wrong, but also understandable since the vehicle was being operated illegally. (I'm assuming that a 'black electric scooter' is not part of one of the trial hire schemes - hire scooters tend to have distinctive livery.)
[1] The law seriously needs to be changed to make it legal to operate Class II and III Invalid Carriages in cycle lanes.
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Leaving the scene of the accident is clearly wrong, but also understandable since the vehicle was being operated illegally.
Occurs to me a default third-party insurance for all e-scooter and e-bikes (and trikes and mobiscoots) would cost peanuts and perhaps reduce incidents like this because the person responsible would feel confident they weren't going to be sued. (I presume this is already included when you hire an official e-scooter.)
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Yes, Oxford is Voi.
And yes, the hire schemes have to provide 3rd party cover.
The logic behind 15mph makes sense. It can be a frustrating compromise, where it's too slow for riding on the road, but too fast for shared use. Maybe there should be a special pedelec license in this country that allows you to ride 30mph e-bikes, but they can't go on shared use paths, but that would just confuse everyone.
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Isn't the point of the ebike 15mph limit is that it's still classed as a bicycle (although electric assist)?
A high powered 30mph+ ebike or escooter would be a motorbike/motor vehicle, ie you need helmet, licence, insurance, MOT etc.
I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.
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I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.
They are (except where pavement cycling is legalised via blue signs and magic paint). Nobody's proposing otherwise.
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Isn't the point of the ebike 15mph limit is that it's still classed as a bicycle (although electric assist)?
A high powered 30mph+ ebike or escooter would be a motorbike/motor vehicle, ie you need helmet, licence, insurance, MOT etc.
Yes. Which is why there are loads of illegally modified 25mph ebikes (and escooters) about. The gov't had to create a new legal basis for the escooters not to require all that stuff - they could do so for ones with more power if they wanted.
I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.
So the status quo then?
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The regulations allow the e-scooters more power than the 250W allowed to e-bikes but without any increase in top speed. Can't remember how much though. Presumably this is to compensate for the lack of leg power?
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The regulations allow the e-scooters more power than the 250W allowed to e-bikes but without any increase in top speed. Can't remember how much though. Presumably this is to compensate for the lack of leg power?
I think it's to compensate for heavy battery packs in hire scooters. The bigger the battery, the less frequently the scootervan has to come and swap them.
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I have to get this off my chest. I drive a car in London, have had a licence for 40 years (yeah I know - do I wear a pork pie hat).
Recently I have noticed many more delivery drivers on mopeds. They are a menace. They will cut up your inside to gain seconds and really look like they don't know the dangers of being sideswiped.
Nowt wrong with courier riders etc. - it just seems these ar youths sent out on rickety mopeds with no idea of the 'rules of the road' (yeah my pork pie hat is showing).
Electric scooters are getting bad too. I've seen a few doing idiotic things on the road, like crossing junctions when it suits them and weaving across the road.
You would feel awful if you hit one but again they seem oblivious to the normal rules of the road.
The scooters and cyclists IMO are a menace, but they are on piece work. Same as tipper truck drivers.
Are the riders at the young age where they are invincible, there are just many many more than there were before.
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The regulations allow the e-scooters more power than the 250W allowed to e-bikes but without any increase in top speed. Can't remember how much though. Presumably this is to compensate for the lack of leg power?
I think it's to compensate for heavy battery packs in hire scooters. The bigger the battery, the less frequently the scootervan has to come and swap them.
Yeah, that would make sense.
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I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.
So the status quo then?
Well, I think bikes, ebikes and escooters should all have the same legal status, ie no helmet, licence, insurance, MOT. And no riding on pavements.
Obviously ebikes and escooters are electric assist only up to 15mph.
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The SCIENCE shows that e-bike accidents are due to them enabling people with little cycling experience and/or strength and balance impairments to use bikes, which they then fall off at low speed and when mounting/dismounting/doing unwise things with luggage, not due to their cruising speed being higher than typical unassisted utility cyclists.
A bike shop bloke in The Netherlands once explained to me that they had loads of old people in hospitals there because they had been cyclists for donkey's years and had become weak and feeble so switched to electric bikes. But the whole balance thing was often too much for them and they fell off. Being in their 70s and 80s this often meant broken bones. Hence the hospital trip.
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The SCIENCE shows that e-bike accidents are due to them enabling people with little cycling experience and/or strength and balance impairments to use bikes, which they then fall off at low speed and when mounting/dismounting/doing unwise things with luggage, not due to their cruising speed being higher than typical unassisted utility cyclists.
A bike shop bloke in The Netherlands once explained to me that they had loads of old people in hospitals there because they had been cyclists for donkey's years and had become weak and feeble so switched to electric bikes. But the whole balance thing was often too much for them and they fell off. Being in their 70s and 80s this often meant broken bones. Hence the hospital trip.
Yep, this has been shown in the stats in recent years. It's also linked to the fact that the modern ebike have substantially better brakes than the BSO's they've been riding for 70 years. As well as better acceleration. It's not so much that older people are crashing ebikes more than younger riders, it's just they don't get up so good when they do...
J