Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Wanlock Dod on 24 June, 2020, 09:58:09 pm

Title: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Wanlock Dod on 24 June, 2020, 09:58:09 pm
Some of these have been in place for a while, and more might be expected, so what are the experiences of them so far? Is it likely that any of them will actually result in an increase in utility cycling by people who would have previously made the same journeys by car?
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: numbnuts on 25 June, 2020, 11:20:42 am
I checked out one the other day in Southampton, they are no good for a trike, the first part was only 28 inches wide, so couldn't use it. Wheel to wheel I need 32 inches plus.
The second part was a bit wider, but every 60 meters they put a square shaped bollard reducing the width again......Ah I took the next left and went home.

(https://i.postimg.cc/S2TFTYrx/002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/S2TFTYrx)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: jiberjaber on 25 June, 2020, 12:45:35 pm
It seems to be a bit of a waste of money here in Chelmsford. A couple of days after it was introduced I came through to take a look and the experience was dire, no decent signage, barriers tapered in to the kerb - very poor.  They have made some changes (you are no longer pushed in to the kerb in *most* but not all places and they have opened up the entry points a bit more but no signage - it's as though the county council has no road safety audit capability (which I know they do)!

Video here:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1270486782388457472
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 25 June, 2020, 12:50:56 pm
Some ok ones in London, and big plans for more, though as time goes on people are drifting back towards the bus and tube and it may be too little too late.

There's also quite a few places where they've taken existing painted gutter lanes and put in proper wands, which apparently couldn't be done without a pandemic.

I checked out one the other day in Southampton, they are no good for a trike, the first part was only 28 inches wide, so couldn't use it. Wheel to wheel I need 32 inches plus.

Talk to your councillors or your local campaign group.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 25 June, 2020, 12:54:18 pm
Still waiting for one to pop up in Birmingham...
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 25 June, 2020, 01:08:23 pm
We've got pop-up pavements outside the shops further up Larrington Towers Road, to prevent the Poor of the Parish from being crushed by the wheels of industry a W15 bus while they queueueueueueue.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 25 June, 2020, 01:20:33 pm
Yeah, we've got some of those.  They're even seeing a little use now that the shops they're in front of have opened.  But the psychological power of the kerb is strong, and people only seem to use them for queueueueuing, rather than passing each other with a decent amount of space.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: fd3 on 25 June, 2020, 01:44:48 pm
Where would we want one in Brum?  Have you used the consultation thingy to ask for one in a particular point? 
I got all gung-ho about this this and contacted my councillor, but she totally annihilated me by asking me where I would want one.
... ummm .... errr .... I ride on the street?
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 June, 2020, 01:58:26 pm
I can think of several places here in Bristol which need pavement widening, and needed it anyway before Covid, but it's harder to think of specific sites for cycle lanes.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 25 June, 2020, 02:15:09 pm
Where would we want one in Brum?  Have you used the consultation thingy to ask for one in a particular point? 
I got all gung-ho about this this and contacted my councillor, but she totally annihilated me by asking me where I would want one.
... ummm .... errr .... I ride on the street?

A5127 from the city centre to Sutton Coldfield is the one that immediately springs to mind.  Strategic route, fairly horrid to cycle, no sensible alternatives.
Hagley Road.  Pershore Road.  Selly Oak High Street (for which plans have been in the pipeline since before the bypass was built).
A41 and/or Stratford Road maybe?

Probably some stuff around the centre of town.... Moor Street?  Digbeth?

I dunno.  I generally ride on the road, too.  But I'm a fit cyclist who manages her fear of cars.  There's no shortage of places where I'd happily use segregated alternatives if they were decent.  (I regularly use the new A38 cycleway; it's marginally slower than riding in the carriageway, faster at peak times, and generally less stressful.  I avoid shared-use bollocks, unless it's a useful shortcut or something.)

"Look for where the BOSists are pavement cycling and build them there." is probably a good heuristic, if vague.

https://www.widenmypath.com/birmingham/ seems to be a decent project to collect grassroots suggestions.  I've added a few comments there, though mostly in the classes of "This cycle facility needs fixing because..." and "Filtered permeability would be good here."
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: tatanab on 25 June, 2020, 03:05:45 pm
https://www.widenmypath.com
I looked at my small town on that site and immediately thought "not in my name".  One point is a perfectly wide 2 lane A road (30 limit) with parking bays along one side.  No problem - but apparently there is a need to take out the parking bays and put in a cycle lane.  Thing is, this is half way up a 600ft climb so there do not tend to be utility cyclists around.  Another one- a perfectly reasonable rural B road which I use regularly (40 limit mostly) apparently needs a cycle lane.   Most of the local ones I look at must be posted by some moaning minnies - we have a couple of London campaigning escapees who are prime suspects I think.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 25 June, 2020, 03:35:35 pm
https://www.widenmypath.com
I looked at my small town on that site and immediately thought "not in my name".  One point is a perfectly wide 2 lane A road (30 limit) with parking bays along one side.  No problem

For us.

Quote
Thing is, this is half way up a 600ft climb so there do not tend to be utility cyclists around.

Or it's uphill in the door zone on a Scary Main Road™

TBH, sounds like a reasonable idea to me.  Roads can be better used than for storing cars, and uphill means greater speed differential, which is what makes cycling aroud cars unpleasant.

My main concern is that where infrastructure is built, it's of a quality that's actually worth using.  Otherwise the few of us who still cycle would usually be better off without it.

I've commented on a magic paint cycle lane on a similar road to request that either it be widened and upgraded to full segregation, or removed entirely.  As it stands, it just makes the drivers pass you closer (while you try to avoid the leaf chutney).
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: nobby on 25 June, 2020, 03:39:02 pm
Still waiting for one to pop up in Birmingham...
\

Your are welcome to share Wolvo's :)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 June, 2020, 02:18:18 pm
the few of us who still cycle
Historically few or recently few? Numbers of cyclists in the New Old Normal are significantly down from the Temporary Normal but still up on the Old Normal. There's been a change in the demographic though. The families and the unaccompanied kids are mostly gone but some of the mandated exercisers are still at it and of course there are those who are scared of buses. I expect most of this latter group will buy old cars in the winter though, especially if a scrappage scheme releases currently "first owner" cars onto the second-hand market.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: DuncanM on 26 June, 2020, 02:43:01 pm
<snip> especially if a scrappage scheme releases currently "first owner" cars onto the second-hand market.
That's not generally how they work - the last one you had to trade in a car that was >10yo, with MOT, that you had owned (or been registered keeper) for > 1 year. The cars that were traded in were not allowed back on the roads (there were some really nice classics in that group last time :( ). The only thing a scrappage scheme will do is replace existing cars with newer ones, and the secondhand market will have demand and supply reduced.

Not seen any pop-up cycle lanes in Oxford.  Maybe there are some and I've not been on those roads.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 June, 2020, 03:06:39 pm
Okay, I thought it was more like a general trade in scheme with the cars being taken as px for new ones then sold on.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Notsototalnewbie on 26 June, 2020, 05:31:48 pm
Apparently next month Croydon is getting a short stretch of 'lightly segregated' cycle path along London Road, to the hospital.

My biggest issue with London Road is the air quality; I only use it when I'm tired of arguing with drivers in the parallel backstreets who think I should throw myself into parked cars to let them pass. Not sure how much use it's going to be in encouraging new cyclists when the rest of Croydon is so terrifying but it's a start I suppose.

What Croydon did move surprisingly quickly on was putting planters down on a handful of residential streets to filter them. One of those is up a hill, and on my route to Beckenham, so it's quite nice to pootle up that in a low gear without a car breathing down my neck.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 26 June, 2020, 06:38:10 pm
Hmm, London Road is not for the faint-of-heart (my quickest route home from the mothership, when I went to the mothership of course) was all the way down the A23 from Blackfriars to Brixton to Streatham to Norbury to Thorton Heath Pond to Croydon to Purley. And breath, or don't. The traffic is mostly awful and gets a lot worse in Wild West Croydon, but it's predictably awful. Sometimes I come via Mitcham Common but that involves the Lombardy Circus of Death and some fairly unpleasant roads (the shared pavement across the Common simply abandons you on the road, I presume where Sutton becomes Croydon).

There's no good route just a poorly joined-up set of least bad options. Croydon council spent a small fortune putting in parking bays by the shops (also on Brighton Road) that seem entirely used for delivery vans.

It would be nice to see Croydon do anything, they've generally held to a deep-seated antipathy to cycling.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 June, 2020, 07:27:42 pm
Trafford closed down a pop up cycle lane already because of traffic. One driver complained about 2 miles taking an hour. There’s no helping some people. :facepalm:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/council-removes-pop-up-cycle-lane-after-two-days-because-drivers-complained-about-traffic-458499
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Socks on 26 June, 2020, 07:44:28 pm
County Durham appear to be doing bugger all.  Although they have published a fancy 'Cycling and Walking Delivery Plan'.  For the next two or three years it involves assessing the state of current provision and potential demand.  Then, I assume, actually making some improvements in about four to ten years time.  By which time we'll be f*****d anyway.

To be fair, they have faced ten years of some of the biggest funding cuts in England.  And about 95% of their spending choices are dictated by someone in an office in London, thanks to the most centralised political system in Europe.

Very frustrating when there is so much potential in the County (for example, joining up former mineral railways which are now multi-user routes, with new urban cycle links, using active travel to counteract health and poverty issues).
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: fd3 on 27 June, 2020, 12:17:48 am
A5127 from the city centre to Sutton Coldfield is the one that immediately springs to mind.  Strategic route, fairly horrid to cycle, no sensible alternatives.
Hagley Road.  Pershore Road.  Selly Oak High Street (for which plans have been in the pipeline since before the bypass was built).
A41 and/or Stratford Road maybe?
Extending the blue route to SC would make sense, guess an pop up would be a trial to see if it's worth it.
Agree with Hagley road, except that it's Hagley road and I can't think of a good reason to venture that way.  Selly Oak doesn't need a pop up it needs bollards and pedestrianising.  Stratford Rd is legit, they have Jyotis.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 June, 2020, 04:40:12 pm
Oh what an incredible surprise, pedestrianisation plans "delayed": https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink/my-heart-sank-pub-on-4268420
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Wanlock Dod on 28 June, 2020, 07:38:30 pm
I’m not surprised that some cyclists don’t like them, there seems to be no shortage of enthusiasts that won’t use any cycling facilities. The most important question is whether or not they are sufficiently good enough to encourage people who wouldn’t otherwise have cycled to go by bike for at least some of their journeys. That will require networks that aren’t broken up at crucial big and scary junctions. I can see that being the biggest limiting factor in terms of persuading people that their journeys are viable by bike.

It is something that highwaymen have been spectacularly bad at forever, or else have sought to make cycling as inconvenient as possible whenever presented with an opportunity. I have seen quite a few junctions completed in the last 4 or 5 years that would need cyclists to use 4 or 5 sets of pedestrian crossings even to go straight over, whilst all traffic on the road gets through the junctions in one go.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: markcjagar on 29 June, 2020, 01:02:53 am
That will require networks that aren’t broken up at crucial big and scary junctions.

This is the biggest issue with the permanent cycle infra between Leeds and Bradford, it's acceptable for long stretches, even good at some points but it's confusing and somewhat dangerous at some points when it reaches huge motorway junctions and does the classic "END" when it reaches bits of road where it's too narrow or otherwise inconvenient for it to continue, which is fine for an experienced cyclist but might be off putting for someone using it for the first time.

I'm not sure how much use it gets, I used it for the second time on Saturday in less than ideal weather conditions.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Solocle on 05 July, 2020, 05:21:38 pm
That will require networks that aren’t broken up at crucial big and scary junctions.

This is the biggest issue with the permanent cycle infra between Leeds and Bradford, it's acceptable for long stretches, even good at some points but it's confusing and somewhat dangerous at some points when it reaches huge motorway junctions and does the classic "END" when it reaches bits of road where it's too narrow or otherwise inconvenient for it to continue, which is fine for an experienced cyclist but might be off putting for someone using it for the first time.

I'm not sure how much use it gets, I used it for the second time on Saturday in less than ideal weather conditions.
I tried it, once, in 2018. Lots of dodging parked cars as I recall. Also, good job I was going for the A65 up t'Horsforth first time I met the Armley gyratory, had I been heading for the city centre, I think I might have followed the green background sign thereto onto the A58(M)...
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 15 July, 2020, 04:04:54 pm
Good new for Brummies - they've launched an 'engagement platform'!

https://twitter.com/bhamconnected/status/1283033507783217157

(Keen-eyed readers will note the similarity to WidenMyPath, only without any of the contributed data...   :facepalm:)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: fd3 on 15 July, 2020, 07:07:20 pm
My first thought was that this, like the bike vouchers, if far too late.  Then I remembered the second wave due for September and the third for December - maybe the lanes and bikes will be ready for those?
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: toontra on 15 July, 2020, 07:40:13 pm
I was coming along the Euston Rd at 3pm on Monday (usually relatively quiet) and saw a massive tail-back starting the far side of the underpass all the way to Kings Cross.  As I use the underpass this meant having to manoeuvre between the stationary traffic until I reached the far side.  Far from being a serious accident or major roadworks, to my surprise I saw the cause was a newly-installed pop-up bike lane in between the bus lane and the (what used to be 2lane but now single-lane) carriageway.

I have mixed feelings about this.  On that particular occasion it slowed me down (the underpass bit anyway). I normally feel pretty safe in the bus lane, and it did seem to be causing huge congestion (with the associated fumes presumably) for pretty minimal benefit.

If the idea is to piss off road users to the extent that they give up driving, that's certainly one way to do it, but I suspect they will adapt and find other ways around that part of town.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 15 July, 2020, 07:54:34 pm
huge congestion (with the associated fumes presumably)

Congestion and fumes are *always* caused by too many people driving.

That said, the Euston Road cycle lane exists for no other reason than that the mayor put out a press release promising it a month ago, apparently with no particular plan how to implement it. I very much wish it was part of a coherent plan for a London emergency cycle network, but I'm not convinced.

It doesn't help that TfL have had to furlough 90% of their staff so the design and comms are distinctly sub par.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 15 July, 2020, 07:59:18 pm
Euston Road seems like an eminently sensible place for a cycle route: It's a key route, linking mainline stations (some of which are annoying by tube), and horrendous to cycle if you're neither fast enough to keep up with traffic, nor enthusiastic about filtering or being sqeezed by taxis.

The motor traffic will evaporate, it just takes a few weeks.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: toontra on 15 July, 2020, 08:00:05 pm
Congestion and fumes are *always* caused by too many people driving.

Indeed.  But presumably slow-moving or stationary traffic creates more of a problem than the same density of (relatively) free-flowing?

As it is, I seem to recall that this is already the worst road in the UK for air pollution.  ::-)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: toontra on 15 July, 2020, 08:01:37 pm
Euston Road seems like an eminently sensible place for a cycle route: It's a key route, linking mainline stations (some of which are annoying by tube), and horrendous to cycle if you're neither fast enough to keep up with traffic, nor enthusiastic about filtering or being sqeezed by taxis.

There are wide bus lanes both directions.  In all my years of cycling this road I've never felt in danger.  I can think of many, many roads far more in need of segregation.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 15 July, 2020, 08:05:15 pm
Euston Road seems like an eminently sensible place for a cycle route: It's a key route, linking mainline stations (some of which are annoying by tube), and horrendous to cycle if you're neither fast enough to keep up with traffic, nor enthusiastic about filtering or being sqeezed by taxis.

There are wide bus lanes both directions.  In all my years of cycling this road I've never felt in danger.

I've rarely felt in danger[1], but that's because I'm  a) fast enough to keep up with traffic in the underpass  b) used to Birmingham drivers, so London is tame by comparison.  It is however unpleasant, and (particularly in the Kings Cross area) slow to make progress without filtering because of all the cars in the way.

It's not about us.


[1] Usually when merging left after coming through the underpass, with traffic approaching at speed in my blind spot.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: toontra on 15 July, 2020, 08:14:54 pm
I've rarely felt in danger[1], but that's because I'm  a) fast enough to keep up with traffic in the underpass  b) used to Birmingham drivers, so London is tame by comparison.  It is however unpleasant, and (particularly in the Kings Cross area) slow to make progress without filtering because of all the cars in the way.

It's not about us.


[1] Usually when merging left after coming through the underpass, with traffic approaching at speed in my blind spot.

Indeed, understood.  High volume traffic can be intimidating even when the relative risk is low.  I'm not sure that the pop-up lane here will help much with that though.  The relative benefit seems to be outweighed by the general chaos resulting.  You'd really have to see it in action to get a fair impression.

The underpass can be avoided but it means another set of lights - that route was clogged too  ;)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 15 July, 2020, 08:18:25 pm
Yeah, Euston Road is fine if you're a fit and fast cyclist, and happy to play with the buses or taxis and brave cars as they do the New York zoom between the lights. I think the average person would take one look and think not a chance. That said, you see the occasional bunch of tourists on Santander Bikes. Come to London, breath the fumes, taste the mortality.

Congestion is probably the best way to get rid of traffic and force people and businesses to think critically about their journeys, so I encourage it.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 15 July, 2020, 08:22:02 pm
You'd really have to see it in action to get a fair impression.

Fortunately someone has done this for you:
https://twitter.com/grahamparks/status/1281988035773698056

(it's meant to be extended a bit at both ends, and a similar lane put in the other way)

Indeed.  But presumably slow-moving or stationary traffic creates more of a problem than the same density of (relatively) free-flowing?

Trying to reduce pollution by ensuring traffic is free-flowing is rarely a winning strategy.

(I'd like to see numbers for whether the same volume of cars crawling past a point vs moving freely actually outputs more pollution)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: toontra on 15 July, 2020, 08:24:37 pm
You'd really have to see it in action to get a fair impression.

Fortunately someone has done this for you:
https://twitter.com/grahamparks/status/1281988035773698056


 ;D

As I say, I'm undecided.  It may grow on me.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: fd3 on 15 July, 2020, 11:42:23 pm
I'm not sure that the pop-up lane here will help much with that though.  The relative benefit seems to be outweighed by the general chaos resulting.
The only way you will reduce car traffic is if you make it really shitty and hard to do.
In Paris they closed roads and turned them into pedestrian zones, we're talking major arteries into the city.  If you want people on bikes and out of cars this is the sort of chaos you need to create.
Or you pay the price.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 16 July, 2020, 09:43:09 am
It's the same rule as physically blocking bad parking, the only solution to traffic is to make it physically difficult. Yeah, blah blah deliveries, blah blah taxis. Deliveries could be more efficient and do we need thousands of empty taxis cruising around. Probably not. Euston Road is a horrid multi-lane, fume-filled corridor.

Our little commuter town is consulting (again, I think it's a perpetual consultation) and the 'conceptualization' of the revitalized high street still features cars (plus wide pavements and cyclists, and happy people, doing happy things that don't feature wandering by vacant shops). Just bite the bullet and close it to cars.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Wanlock Dod on 16 July, 2020, 08:26:50 pm
Extinction Rebellion activist warns Euston Road cycle lane jams will add to pollution (http://camdennewjournal.com/article/extinction-rebellion-warns-euston-road-cycle-lane-jams-will-add-to-pollution)
Just because they are members of Extinction Rebellion doesn’t mean that they aren’t as car dependent as much of the rest of society though.

In other news there were very narrow coned cycle lanes installed on the A6 in Lancaster, I guess they would have been comfortably in the “bad” category. The local Green Party was the first to oppose them because they (should have) prevented residents from loading and unloading right outside their houses (people just ripped the cones out if they wanted to for access though). The coned lane on one side was replaced by an even narrower advisory lane that must surely put it comfortably in the “ugly” category. I suppose it remains to be seen whether levels of cycling are affected.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: yoav on 17 July, 2020, 02:37:09 pm
Sad but predictable,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/15/english-councils-backpedal-on-cycling-schemes-after-tory-backlash
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 August, 2020, 05:14:01 pm
Used a pop-up covid lane today for the first time. Actually two of them. One has been in since Saturday and works quite well – whole lane wide, decent length, connects to places at one end; but the other end leaves you at a busy roundabout with lights, where you either try to insert yourself into the stream of traffic entering the roundabout or wait for the lights to change and go round a sort of inner circle. I normally ride round the roundabout traffic-wise but used the inner circle today just for experimentation. It works but takes a bit longer. That's Lewins Mead to the Bear Pit if anyone in Bristol is reading.

The other is on the Triangle and is too narrow and ends just you might want something to help you get in lane for the Y-shaped junction. Useless.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 05 August, 2020, 08:52:28 pm
Things are afoot on Silly Oak high street.

So far, a liberal distribution of cones has snarled up the can't-be-arsed-to-use-the-bypass traffic, while an assortment of men in orange hi-vis have converted a 2 metre section of double yellow line into single yellow line by the innovative method of removing a yellow-line-sized strip of road surface with an angle grinder.  They've also done something confusing with kerbstones in the road in front of the bus stop outside Touch Base Pears.

I'm sure this would all make sense if I looked at the plans (https://covidmeasuresbirmingham.commonplace.is/schemes/proposals/a-38-pop-up-cycle-lane/details) more carefully, but I think the entertainment value is higher if I dont.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 August, 2020, 10:34:44 am
Digging up the top layer of road surface seems to be the standard way of removing road lines now. I guess they decided that burning them off releases too many toxic fumes and grinding them off is too dusty (and probably too slow).
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 06 August, 2020, 01:37:57 pm
Digging up the top layer of road surface seems to be the standard way of removing road lines now. I guess they decided that burning them off releases too many toxic fumes and grinding them off is too dusty (and probably too slow).

You can blast them off with high-pressure water, which is quick and non-messy (though I'm not sure it does the road surface any favours with regard to long-term weathering):

(http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/bbbr2008/IMG_1370.sized.jpg)


Having studied the plans, it appears that they intend to install a temporary asphalt ramp between the pavement and a new wand-segregated cycle lane at that position.  Presumably digging out a strip gives it something to stick to.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 August, 2020, 02:28:15 pm
Haven't seen that method. Dig and relay seems to be the preferred method of contractors here when making numerous tweaks to RPZ layout.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: alexb on 07 August, 2020, 10:47:07 am
Or you could do what Wandsworth council did on Tooting Bec and grind them off really badly, leaving dangerous ruts and grooves all over the path that grab at your bike when you cross them.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 07 August, 2020, 11:39:18 am
I've properly studied the A38 plans.  Silly Oak high street gains a segregated cycle lane for the downhill (northbound) bit, while those heading uphill get to weave between pedestrians, piles of rubbish, etc. on the pavement.

It then bodges (via excessive road-crossings) into the poorly designed new infra that's under construction on the Silly Oak Triangle, before turning into bus lanes for the run to Northfield (apart from the bit uphill by the hospital, where you get to wobble about on the chutney while trying not to mow down any smokers or vulnerable pedestrians, because parking).

I mean, it's an improvement, but it's still fairly bollocks.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: numbnuts on 27 August, 2020, 09:21:19 am
They pulled the plug  ;D
Cycle lane on Bassett Avenue in Southampton to be removed  :thumbsup:
After many letter complaining I could not ride my trike down this road as the cycle lane was not wide enough so a BIG yes
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/18679221.cycle-lane-bassett-avenue-southampton-removed/
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 28 August, 2020, 05:29:13 pm
They've dedicated one lane of the road over Kingston Bridge to cyclists, which is fine going in the morning, but in the afternoon when there is more traffic, there's a long tailback, which prompted me to take an alternative route through Thames Ditton, only to find that St Leonard's Road was closed, necessitating a bigger detour. 
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: drossall on 28 August, 2020, 10:24:14 pm
We're on a 70s housing estate, built as one main through road with others off it. The main road (which is a bit of a road to nowhere really) has had cycle lanes for decades, but too narrow in places, and quite heavily used at one end for parking for the nearby station.

A County Council scheme to upgrade the lanes has been abandoned amid local opposition. Probably not too bad a thing to be honest. It doesn't appear to have been that well thought out in terms of addressing the issues, and anyway because it's a road to nowhere the natural travel lines are arguably orthogonal to the road, so addressing those would be more useful.

Seems to have been a scheme to grab some government money and put some more paint down or whatever, but without a real sense of priorities and strategy.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 07 September, 2020, 12:18:53 pm

Hull appear to have painted parking spaces... inside their new cycle lane...


https://twitter.com/HullCamGuy/status/1302162160043384832

J
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 September, 2020, 12:23:34 pm
Yes, even Hull occasionally follows standard UK practice in a few areas.  ;)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: tonyh on 07 September, 2020, 12:25:42 pm

I feel bound to be pleased about that!   ;)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 September, 2020, 12:34:12 pm
 ;D :D
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 08 September, 2020, 10:32:01 pm
Review of the Silly Oak to Northfield pop-up wossnames: https://twitter.com/Tdr1nka/status/1303359091729993730
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 September, 2020, 11:31:39 am
"This is not available to you"
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 09 September, 2020, 01:41:00 pm
"This is not available to you"

Probably a metaphor for the infrastructure.

(Works for me in an incognito window...)

I came down the new segregated cycle lane on the high street yesterday.  They've made a just-about-adequate width painted lane, then put plastic bollards up to keep the cars out.  Only, anticipating people damaging them by driving cars into them, they've thoughtfully set the bollards some 0.2m or so inside the white line, for their protection.  This leaves you a relatively narrow lane full of potholes, drain covers and a scary tramliney seam in the tarmac from utility works just about where you want to position your bicycle wheels.  They've also installed a concrete build-out at the bus stop, so you get a bit of bonus puddly pump-track action.

I note that I normally take a strong primary position on that bit, because the gradient makes it easy to keep up with traffic, and it's the only way to avoid all the afore-mentioned surface hazards.

The other direction is disconnected bollocks with confusing markings and shared-use footways in a busy high street.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 September, 2020, 02:54:01 pm
I tried it in an incognito window and it worked for me too. Perhaps I'm on some Twitter banned list.

Anyway, comparing to what we have in Bristol it looks decently wide but similarly disjointed. And way too much shared pavement stuff.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 13 September, 2020, 08:28:49 pm
Discovered one on the Scary Dual Cabbageway™ in Smethwick earlier.  I thought it was roadworks at first (it was one lane enthusiastically coned off, with that red tape stuff joining the tops of some of the cones), but after a while there were fresh bike symbols painted on the road surface.  Handily, some of the cones had fallen over (been driven into?), so I was able to ride across the downed tape and join it.

It then, somewhat inevitably, tried to funnel me onto the pavement near Rolfe Street station.  I nipped through a gap between cones and found myself in a nice empty left hand lane with a dense stream of traffic between me and my approaching right turn.

In summary: Usual cycle infrastructure problem of assumptions about where cyclists are going, but reasonably decent execution.  Could do with someone going and tidying up the cones.

On a related note, Birmingham has made further progress in dividing the city centre up into segments, with motor vehicle movements between them only possible via the ring road.  One particular filter seems to be being deliberately sabotaged by motorists (I'm guessing taxi drivers) moving the barriers so they can continue to ignore it.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 13 September, 2020, 08:59:48 pm
All TfL bus lanes are now 24 hours, at least theoretically, which should make cycling a lot more pleasant. Signs haven’t been changed yet and thus they’re full of cars. Parked, as it’s a Sunday and that’s what a lot of bus lanes become.

The situation with parking is confusing. The summary says parking will be banned everywhere, but they’ve also published a lost of specific locations where parking will be suspended.

Loading will still be permitted, and presumably as widely abused as loading bays are now, if not more so.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 September, 2020, 09:39:25 pm
Just next to Bristol Partway station is Hatchet Road, which has, amazingly, a railway bridge. In fact two side by side, one arched, one flat. The arch is a bit higher than the flat and obscures the flat if you're approaching from the north, which has deceived many drivers, the most recent being a bus driver earlier this year. I had assumed that was the reason the road had been narrowed with chunky red and white barriers ("rhinos"?) and tidal flow with traffic lights. But then I read that no, this is to increase space for social distancing! This has failed 100% as no one, on bike or foot, ever uses the supposedly reallocated space. In fact I'm not sure there's even a way into it by bike. One pavement has been shared use for years; it's a bit narrow but works, mostly – and virtually all cyclists continue to use this.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Notsototalnewbie on 14 September, 2020, 04:14:54 pm
All TfL bus lanes are now 24 hours, at least theoretically, which should make cycling a lot more pleasant. Signs haven’t been changed yet and thus they’re full of cars. Parked, as it’s a Sunday and that’s what a lot of bus lanes become.

The situation with parking is confusing. The summary says parking will be banned everywhere, but they’ve also published a lost of specific locations where parking will be suspended.

Loading will still be permitted, and presumably as widely abused as loading bays are now, if not more so.

I was wondering when they might get around to changing the signs.

Wandsworth has abandoned its LTNs so on my way to Putney yesterday I got to play chicken with the 4x4s which was lots of fun.

I found some poles on Garratt Lane and also in Colliers Wood on the way back. The bus lane on Garratt lane was also full of parked cars and at one point the tarmac did that 'wave' thing which on the Brommie felt a bit like I'd temporarily gone offroading  :hand:
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 17 September, 2020, 12:37:57 pm
This is going well: https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-live-blog-16-september-2020-277297
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 September, 2020, 12:45:10 pm
This is going well: https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-live-blog-16-september-2020-277297

That's some first class fuckwittery.

Apparently the managler of the letting agency hadn't realised they were installing a cycle lane. Cos the blue paint and the fucking wands wasn't enough of a fucking giveaway.

Quite why the council couldn't get a tow truck there within the hour is I think the biggest issue. If we parked 5 cars in the middle of the M6, you'd expect them to get towed quickly. This is the equivalent.

J
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2020, 01:10:37 pm
I don't think UK councils have had tow trucks since about 2004. The normal approach is to put cones out and pray.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 17 September, 2020, 07:37:38 pm
We of the People's Republic of Waltham Forest still have “lift the car bodily onto a flatbed” removal lorries.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Tim Hall on 18 September, 2020, 06:25:47 pm
People with pitchforks are out and about in Crawley and Horsham, claiming the couple of pop up lanes herald the End of Times, if not worse. A petition has been started calling for their removal.  The Crawley ones are a mixture of cycle and bus lane plus a section where hopeful bike symbols are painted on "normal" road without, thus far, the benefit of a solid white line.

Meanwhile this was claimed to have been spotted in Crawley too. I can't place it though.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/igq0a0qodgxmdrj/WhatsApp%20Image%202020-09-18%20at%2015.30.24.jpeg?raw=1)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Tim Hall on 03 November, 2020, 10:03:39 pm
Just seen on the local newspaper website that
Quote
Today, November 3, the county council announced plans to remove all the pop-up cycle ways in West Sussex.

This comes not long after a reports of a van vs bike collision in Horsham
Quote
A Horsham taxi driver and cyclist is calling for the pop-up cycle lane to be scrapped before a fatal crash happens. Phil Reich, 58, said he wanted to speak out after witnessing the aftermath of a collision between a van and a cyclist at 9.25am this morning, October 27 at the Springfield Park Road junction.

He said: “I got there just after it happened. Thankfully [the] cyclist didn’t appear to be injured but his bike was completely destroyed. (I) don’t think this would have happened if cycle lane wasn’t there.”

Phil told the County Times he has used the cycle lane himself and witnessed motorists driving their cars into it by mistake.

By mistake. Hmm. I was in a line of cars this evening, adjacent to what is now a bus lane/covid cycle lane. I spied on motorist drive in what must have been a deliberate way into the it.  (I caught them up two sets of lights later...)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Steph on 28 November, 2020, 07:56:49 pm
I shall just leave yjis here

 ;D ;D
https://www.change.org/p/trafford-council-solve-gridlock-on-the-a56-by-removing-the-footways/c?source_location=petition_show
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Jurek on 28 November, 2020, 08:08:03 pm
I shall just leave yjis here

 ;D ;D
https://www.change.org/p/trafford-council-solve-gridlock-on-the-a56-by-removing-the-footways/c?source_location=petition_show
This is a wind up. No?
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 29 November, 2020, 01:26:23 pm


Looks like Kensington and Chelsea are being barbarian fuckwits again :(

https://twitter.com/RBKC/status/1332986891377856514

This map shows just how truly awful a decision this is.

https://twitter.com/citycyclists/status/1333002651143974914

Jay Foreman sums it up nicely.

https://twitter.com/jayforeman/status/1333034520484982785

I would suggest the next cyclist to have an accident on the route where the cycle lane once was should sue Kensington and Chelsea. The only way they are going to understand this is if they are made to suffer financially :(

Utterly barbaric fucking morons.

J
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 29 November, 2020, 05:10:16 pm
Well, isn't it the council that occasionally burns its residents to death?
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 29 November, 2020, 05:14:55 pm
Well, isn't it the council that occasionally burns its residents to death?

Only the poor ones.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 29 November, 2020, 11:08:57 pm
Well, isn't it the council that occasionally burns its residents to death?

Only the poor ones.

Of course that's entirely their own fault.  And imagine having the temerity to complain just because their homes were clad with solid petril :o
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 30 November, 2020, 09:48:00 am
Yes, but the borough was saving money, which I'm sure is important. Think of the all the people who were getting a nice rebate on their council tax so they could splung it on yet another urban wanktank.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: DuncanM on 30 November, 2020, 05:26:52 pm
Ah, but it was the cycle lane that caused all that congestion, not the roadworks from the broken water main.
And it was the cycle lane that reduced footfall in business that were closed due to a National Lockdown.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/nov/30/kensington-and-chelsea-council-criticised-for-scrapping-cycle-lane

 :sick:
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: drossall on 30 November, 2020, 06:37:46 pm
There was research once to show that reducing car access increased sales in shops. Not quite the same context - this was about pedestrianisation - but the general gist was that the trade lost from motorists who could not stop outside the shop to buy a paper was outweighed by the trade from people who were more willing to spend time shopping in a place not choked with cars. Not sure how relevant that would be here.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 30 November, 2020, 07:15:57 pm
My gut feeling is - this being a dense area of London - the vast majority of shoppers arrive on foot or by public transport or taxi. The "everyone round here drives a wankpanzer anyway" could only ever be a tiny minority, because where TF would more than a handful of them park?
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 November, 2020, 07:24:01 pm
My gut feeling is - this being a dense area of London - the vast majority of shoppers arrive on foot or by public transport or taxi. The "everyone round here drives a wankpanzer anyway" could only ever be a tiny minority, because where TF would more than a handful of them park?
On the pavement, dur!
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 30 November, 2020, 07:59:33 pm
My gut feeling is - this being a dense area of London - the vast majority of shoppers arrive on foot or by public transport or taxi. The "everyone round here drives a wankpanzer anyway" could only ever be a tiny minority, because where TF would more than a handful of them park?

Taxis: the campaign to have it closed was instigated by black cab drivers, as it is a lucrative area for them, and representatives of shops that are of the kind that has customers who can only arrive by cab as there is little parking close enough to permit a sufficiently short walk (and obviously public transport is out of the question). They then recruited various hatey loons on social media and amongst the Tory councillors, which resulted in a petition with lots of signatories who don’t even live in the area nor travel through it.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/kensington-cycle-lane-axed-refund-government-cash-b115087.html

Usual stuff for a country full of total bell-ends.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 30 November, 2020, 08:03:44 pm
There was research once to show that reducing car access increased sales in shops. Not quite the same context - this was about pedestrianisation - but the general gist was that the trade lost from motorists who could not stop outside the shop to buy a paper was outweighed by the trade from people who were more willing to spend time shopping in a place not choked with cars. Not sure how relevant that would be here.

Road-side parking encourages the spawning of convenience stores (one is never enough, basically people don't want to walk more than two car lengths to get a lottery ticket) and fast-food franchises. The sort of shop that lets people dash in and out, with the minimum of hassle. They'll drive on to the next one if there's not a spot. You see this effect in any high street. Compare and contrast with any pedestrianised area, where you'll start to see cafes and coffees shops, places where people will linger, so they're capturing foot traffic, either local or because people are willing to park and walk.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 November, 2020, 08:13:22 pm
There was research once to show that reducing car access increased sales in shops. Not quite the same context - this was about pedestrianisation - but the general gist was that the trade lost from motorists who could not stop outside the shop to buy a paper was outweighed by the trade from people who were more willing to spend time shopping in a place not choked with cars. Not sure how relevant that would be here.

Road-side parking encourages the spawning of convenience stores (one is never enough, basically people don't want to walk more than two car lengths to get a lottery ticket) and fast-food franchises. The sort of shop that lets people dash in and out, with the minimum of hassle. They'll drive on to the next one if there's not a spot. You see this effect in any high street. Compare and contrast with any pedestrianised area, where you'll start to see cafes and coffees shops, places where people will linger, so they're capturing foot traffic, either local or because people are willing to park and walk.
Where people 'do' rather than just purchase. So with retail increasingly moving online, we can hopefully look forward to more people-friendly 'doing' space; but in the short term, there's bound to be a pro-parking, traffic uber alles, backlash, supported by businesses and politicians at various levels because they have to combat 'the death of retail'.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: drossall on 01 December, 2020, 08:10:47 am
Road-side parking encourages the spawning of convenience stores (one is never enough, basically people don't want to walk more than two car lengths to get a lottery ticket) and fast-food franchises. The sort of shop that lets people dash in and out, with the minimum of hassle. They'll drive on to the next one if there's not a spot. You see this effect in any high street. Compare and contrast with any pedestrianised area, where you'll start to see cafes and coffees shops, places where people will linger, so they're capturing foot traffic, either local or because people are willing to park and walk.
That's interesting. Our town centre does pretty well in normal times. We're in a market town. One key street was "pedestrianised" ten or twenty years ago. Strictly, it's a motor-vehicle exclusion order, so bikes can ride through. We've got loads of cafes, and visiting cyclists are quite common.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 01 December, 2020, 09:36:07 am
Road-side parking encourages the spawning of convenience stores (one is never enough, basically people don't want to walk more than two car lengths to get a lottery ticket) and fast-food franchises. The sort of shop that lets people dash in and out, with the minimum of hassle. They'll drive on to the next one if there's not a spot. You see this effect in any high street. Compare and contrast with any pedestrianised area, where you'll start to see cafes and coffees shops, places where people will linger, so they're capturing foot traffic, either local or because people are willing to park and walk.
That's interesting. Our town centre does pretty well in normal times. We're in a market town. One key street was "pedestrianised" ten or twenty years ago. Strictly, it's a motor-vehicle exclusion order, so bikes can ride through. We've got loads of cafes, and visiting cyclists are quite common.

We have a mostly 'drive-through' town which is gradually stumbling towards convenience-o-geddon. There's always going to limited parking on the high street (and it's all parking and traffic going elsewhere which, of course, most of it is) and most of it is taken by people 'grabbing stuff.' If you think a KFC is a major addition to a town's prosperity, job done. There is a pedestrian precinct which, while not the most enticing in the land, does have cafes and the sort of stores that ought to be on the high street. There's a notable difference.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Wanlock Dod on 01 December, 2020, 04:33:05 pm
Although it isn’t mentioned in the article we all know that it was the cycle lanes that caused all of these high street shops to close. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/debenhams-jd-sports-rescue-arcadia-collapse-b1764364.html)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 21 January, 2021, 01:15:50 pm
TfL have managed to lose a High Court case (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55724093) after banning general traffic (including taxis) from Bishopsgate.

The ruling decides that taxis are "public transport" and ought to be allowed to go the same places buses are, largely because of the possibility they might be carrying a disabled person.

The thing is the Bishopsgate scheme is shit that serves little or no function, since you can't get anywhere near it without diving into traffic, and people aren't commuting into central London anyway. The Euston Road and Park Lane cycle lane schemes are similarly pointlessly provocative.

Even though the ruling is about one specific scheme is casts a taxi-shaped shadow over every pedestrianisation, cycling and traffic reduction scheme.

Well done everyone.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 21 January, 2021, 01:28:20 pm
The main function of London taxis appears to be to sit there empty clogging up and polluting the streets (with a pricing structure that enables them to do this). I couldn't actually find a statistic for the proportion of time they're on the road but carrying no passengers, but I'm sure they're by far the most inefficient form of 'public' transport. They're public in the same way that public schools are.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 January, 2021, 01:59:52 pm
Taxis are a sort of highly individualized public transport. "Public in the way that public schools are" is perhaps an exaggeration but a good summary. Most bus lanes can be used by taxis and I'm unclear what the point was of excluding them from this scheme. Especially as the photo shows a number of what appear to be private cars.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 21 January, 2021, 02:10:21 pm
I couldn't actually find a statistic for the proportion of time they're on the road but carrying no passengers

There's a statistic that something like 30-40% of *all* traffic in the CC zone is/was empty taxis. Very hard to google now.

Taxis are a sort of highly individualized public transport. "Public in the way that public schools are" is perhaps an exaggeration but a good summary. Most bus lanes can be used by taxis and I'm unclear what the point was of excluding them from this scheme.

I'd say most journeys they're being used like private cars for people too snobby to use our ample public transport, but I am a judgemental arsehole.

Quote
Especially as the photo shows a number of what appear to be private cars.

Being the BBC, that photo isn't of the Bishopsgate scheme, it's of one of the places pavements were widened to encourage social distancing, though very few people ever stepped off the original pavement.

99% sure it's Edgware Road.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 January, 2021, 02:18:34 pm
Oh, typical BBC. In fact, typical of far more than just the BBC.

I've noticed here too that very few people step off the kerb into the widened pedestrian area. Possibly they think it's a cycle lane, or perhaps the kerb as a boundary is just too ingrained, I don't know.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 22 January, 2021, 05:04:29 pm
I couldn't actually find a statistic for the proportion of time they're on the road but carrying no passengers

There's a statistic that something like 30-40% of *all* traffic in the CC zone is/was empty taxis. Very hard to google now.

Taxis are a sort of highly individualized public transport. "Public in the way that public schools are" is perhaps an exaggeration but a good summary. Most bus lanes can be used by taxis and I'm unclear what the point was of excluding them from this scheme.

I'd say most journeys they're being used like private cars for people too snobby to use our ample public transport, but I am a judgemental arsehole.

Quote
Especially as the photo shows a number of what appear to be private cars.

Being the BBC, that photo isn't of the Bishopsgate scheme, it's of one of the places pavements were widened to encourage social distancing, though very few people ever stepped off the original pavement.

99% sure it's Edgware Road.
There is an argument that they connect the railways to peoples final destination,  such that people (like judges,  lawyers and politicians) will use the train to get into town or between cities. You know people who wouldn't use the bus or the tube with the masses. Or who might pretend to use the tube but make the return journey in a government jaguar.

And as such they are a vital public transport link. Not saying I am overly convinced by this,  but the decision makers will be.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 January, 2021, 05:43:42 pm
I don't think any of the LTNs are around major stations though. And even if they were, you can still drive in them, just not through them.  ???
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 22 January, 2021, 07:41:24 pm
I'm not anti-taxi, I just think they should be treated as private cars, which they essentially are.

In other news, a friend sent me this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXORho_jxAs&feature=emb_rel_end). The hair! The lack of helmets and lycra! The terrifying traffic! Awesome specs! Square cars!

A good demonstration that progress has been about as fast as I cycle.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 22 January, 2021, 07:46:22 pm
I'm not anti-taxi, I just think they should be treated as private cars, which they essentially are.

Agreed, though I'd allow a bus lane exemption for bus-replacement taxis transporting a wheelchair user who's been fucked over by bus or train company incompetence (as happens with tedious regularity).

Taxi drivers wanting a free-for-all on the basis that they might at some point transport a disabled person can fuck off.  The traffic you're creating is a big part of why some disabled can't mobilise independently.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: ian on 22 January, 2021, 07:51:57 pm
Any scheme is blessed by a campaign by drivers who suddenly become very concerned about the disabled getting around, air pollution, and the progress of emergency vehicles.

Basically, all the things their activities have a negative impact on.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: grams on 22 January, 2021, 07:54:42 pm
Taxi drivers wanting a free-for-all on the basis that they might at some point transport a disabled person can fuck off.  The traffic you're creating is a big part of why some disabled can't mobilise independently.

Reading the shouty Nextdoor threads about the latest local LTN, there's an amazing assumption amongst both drivers and non-drivers that every car is either carrying a disabled person or making some other essential impossible-by-any-other-means journey.

Plus lots of people trying to sell the idea there were no traffic jams in London until 3 weeks ago.

(also a guy making a daily short journey by car saying the council ought to be sued for the pollution "traffic" was causing along his route...)
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 January, 2021, 07:54:59 pm
In other news, a friend sent me this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXORho_jxAs&feature=emb_rel_end). The hair! The lack of helmets and lycra! The terrifying traffic! Awesome specs! Square cars!
And the incredible length of the train in the background at the beginning!
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: hatler on 22 January, 2021, 11:11:01 pm
Taxi drivers wanting a free-for-all on the basis that they might at some point transport a disabled person can fuck off.  The traffic you're creating is a big part of why some disabled can't mobilise independently.

Reading the shouty Nextdoor threads about the latest local LTN, there's an amazing assumption amongst both drivers and non-drivers that every car is either carrying a disabled person or making some other essential impossible-by-any-other-means journey.

Plus lots of people trying to sell the idea there were no traffic jams in London until 3 weeks ago.

(also a guy making a daily short journey by car saying the council ought to be sued for the pollution "traffic" was causing along his route...)
Shouty person on our ND complaining (without one scintilla of irony awareness) that it will prevent people taking their children to the local school by car, which they have to do, because of the heavy traffic that the LTN will doubtless cause. The local school has a catchment radius of about 500 yards. FFS.
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 February, 2021, 05:27:34 pm

One of Sustrans finest:

https://twitter.com/tom_a_jeffs/status/1358776832380833803

J
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Kim on 08 February, 2021, 05:29:32 pm
https://twitter.com/tom_a_jeffs/status/1358776832380833803

Did he have to untangle his bike from an electric fence first?   ;D
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Adam on 08 February, 2021, 09:28:39 pm

One of Sustrans finest:

https://twitter.com/tom_a_jeffs/status/1358776832380833803

J

Same as the Netherlands then!

https://twitter.com/boomeik/status/1358055456841867269
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 03:09:39 pm

One of Sustrans finest:

https://twitter.com/tom_a_jeffs/status/1358776832380833803

J

Same as the Netherlands then!

https://twitter.com/boomeik/status/1358055456841867269

Yup...

J
Title: Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Post by: Socks on 27 August, 2021, 01:52:37 pm
This started off as a temporary measure.  Despite an on-line petition (against) and the usual vociferous objections, Gateshead Council have been brave enough to keep some improvements for pedestrians / cyclists / buses in place for at least a couple of years then review the impact:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58348514 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58348514)