Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => GPS => Topic started by: whosatthewheel on 25 July, 2017, 05:12:26 pm
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Technology wise I am a bit of a luddite... I have a Garmin 200, which works very well with all the limitations of a unit with almost zero memory... GPX traks need to be reduced in size, constantly deleted from the memory etc. It also struggles to charge "on the go" despite me using the appropriate charge only cables.
SO...
Edge Touring 149 pounds, Wahoo Bolt 175 pound... not a lot between them... battery life similar enough... which one would you recommend for a luddite that is not interested in syncing a GPS unit to a smart phone to enjoy the marvels of modern apps?
I'm happy with a USB lead to a computer, without the need for all this automation and reliance on phones at all times
However, the Edge seems to suffer from por reliability... is that the case?
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Don't need a GPX device that syncs to your phone and with decent battery life you say? Then surely the answer is an Etrex 20x for around £150 (https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/garmin-etrex-20x/17861/p)? No worries about memory as you can shove an SD card into the machine, it takes AA batteries and you can easily add maps for free to the device using Open Street Map.
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Don't need a GPX device that syncs to your phone and with decent battery life you say? Then surely the answer is an Etrex 20x for around £150 (https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/garmin-etrex-20x/17861/p)? No worries about memory as you can shove an SD card into the machine, it takes AA batteries and you can easily add maps for free to the device using Open Street Map.
I second the "why not an eTrex?" question. Other than not sync it to a phone, what do you actually want to be able to *do* with the device?
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It seems a lot of money for a massive in size AA powered GPS unit... let me see, there are about 3-4 Ah in a pair of Duracell... a charge of a modern GPS Li ion battery is 1 Ah... that means a hell of a lot of AA batteries in one year... could buy rechargeable AA batteries... more money... but then I guess you defy the point of having an Etrex in the first place.
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Don't need a GPX device that syncs to your phone and with decent battery life you say? Then surely the answer is an Etrex 20x for around £150 (https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/garmin-etrex-20x/17861/p)? No worries about memory as you can shove an SD card into the machine, it takes AA batteries and you can easily add maps for free to the device using Open Street Map.
I second the "why not an eTrex?" question. Other than not sync it to a phone, what do you actually want to be able to *do* with the device?
In essence what my 200 does, but a bit better... so churn out decent FIT files and ingest GPX, TCX and such, possibly with the upgrade of having turn by turn navigation... maps not essential
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The Bolt requires a phone AP to do a lot of the set up, but then the menus and use are reported as better than the Garmins maze of settings.
Depends how much of a luddite you are, do you want to rely on a phone AP too?
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The Bolt requires a phone AP to do a lot of the set up, but then the menus and use are reported as better than the Garmins maze of settings.
Depends how much of a luddite you are, do you want to rely on a phone AP too?
I don't have a smart phone and I would rather keep doing without one... especially for what long distance cycling is concerned... these things are totally unreliable
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Don't need a GPX device that syncs to your phone and with decent battery life you say? Then surely the answer is an Etrex 20x for around £150 (https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/garmin-etrex-20x/17861/p)? No worries about memory as you can shove an SD card into the machine, it takes AA batteries and you can easily add maps for free to the device using Open Street Map.
Why not the much cheaper Etrex 10?
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It seems a lot of money for a massive in size AA powered GPS unit... let me see, there are about 3-4 Ah in a pair of Duracell... a charge of a modern GPS Li ion battery is 1 Ah... that means a hell of a lot of AA batteries in one year... could buy rechargeable AA batteries... more money... but then I guess you defy the point of having an Etrex in the first place.
Normal operating procedure with an eTrex is to have a couple of pairs of NiMH AAs, which should be good for a couple of days of continuous operation. If you get caught out, or are on a long tour away from mains power, you can borrow them from your lights or buy batteries from any petrol station or newsagent. I literally can't remember the last time I used disposable batteries in my eTrex.
The main point is that you can carry spare batteries and swap them as needed, rather than arse about trying to charge a USB device on the road, compromising the waterproofing.
Power issues aside, the eTrex is a general purpose handheld navigation device, which means it isn't based on so many assumptions about what a cyclist wants a GPS receiver to do. Whether this is good or bad depends on how you use it, but it seems to me that the eTrex's approach to logging is a better fit for audax than that of the Edge series (you can't forget to 'start' it, for example).
As for massive, handheld GPS receivers used to be the size of a brick phone. Modern ones are *all* tiny.
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It seems a lot of money for a massive in size AA powered GPS unit... let me see, there are about 3-4 Ah in a pair of Duracell... a charge of a modern GPS Li ion battery is 1 Ah... that means a hell of a lot of AA batteries in one year... could buy rechargeable AA batteries... more money... but then I guess you defy the point of having an Etrex in the first place.
Normal operating procedure with an eTrex is to have a couple of pairs of NiMH AAs, which should be good for a couple of days of continuous operation. If you get caught out, or are on a long tour away from mains power, you can borrow them from your lights or buy batteries from any petrol station or newsagent. I literally can't remember the last time I used disposable batteries in my eTrex.
The main point is that you can carry spare batteries and swap them as needed, rather than arse about trying to charge a USB device on the road, compromising the waterproofing.
Power issues aside, the eTrex is a general purpose handheld navigation device, which means it isn't based on so many assumptions about what a cyclist wants a GPS receiver to do. Whether this is good or bad depends on how you use it, but it seems to me that the eTrex's approach to logging is a better fit for audax than that of the Edge series (you can't forget to 'start' it, for example).
As for massive, handheld GPS receivers used to be the size of a brick phone. Modern ones are *all* tiny.
Does an Etrex produce a FIT file equivalent to the Edge series? The kind of stuff you load on Strava and brag with your (not so many) followers?
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The Etrex produces a GPX file that can be uploaded to Strava.
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The Etrex produces a GPX file that can be uploaded to Strava.
I thought Strava only accepted FIT files
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Why not the much cheaper Etrex 10?
Etrex 20 (or 20x, they are essentially the same) has colour screen, unlike the 10. Also the Etrex 10 doesn't have a slot for a microSD.
Etrex 10: https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/p/87768
Etrex 20: https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/p/518046
One set of AA batteries will do a 600 km audax. I do use rechargeables, and sometimes will carry two spare AA batteries, which'll be lighter and less bulky than an external power source. If it all goes wrong it's pretty easy to buy some AA batteries.
When cyclo-camping last year not having to rely on finding power sources to charge an internal battery for a Garmin made life a lot.
Edge Touring is 51 x 93 x 25 mm, whereas an Etrex is 54 x 103 x 33 mm
I thought Strava only accepted FIT files
Nah, gpx tracklogs are fine too: https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/223297187-How-to-get-your-Activities-to-Strava
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Why not the much cheaper Etrex 10?
Etrex 20 (or 20x, they are essentially the same) has colour screen, unlike the 10. Also the Etrex 10 doesn't have a slot for a microSD.
Etrex 10: https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/p/87768
Etrex 20: https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/p/518046
One set of AA batteries will do a 600 km audax. I do use rechargeables, and sometimes will carry two spare AA batteries, which'll be lighter and less bulky than an external power source. If it all goes wrong it's pretty easy to buy some AA batteries.
When cyclo-camping last year not having to rely on finding power sources to charge an internal battery for a Garmin made life a lot.
Edge Touring is 51 x 93 x 25 mm, whereas an Etrex is 54 x 103 x 33 mm
I thought Strava only accepted FIT files
Nah, gpx tracklogs are fine too: https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/223297187-How-to-get-your-Activities-to-Strava
You are beginning to convince me... I see the point of this for long rides and keep my 200 for everyday faffing. Does it fit on a Garmin mount or a mount needs to be bodged up?
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It fits on a Garmin handlebar mount, but it's a different Garmin handlebar mount to the one the Edge series uses.
(This isn't entirely stupid - the Edge's mount is designed for fitting neatly on bike stems. The eTrex/Oregon/Dakota mount is designed so that the back of the device feels comfortable in your hand.)
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The mount looks like this and can fit to the handbars or the stem depending on preference.
(http://images.singletracks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bike_mount.jpg)
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It seems the sensible thing to do... does it come with UK maps included or it's a separate purchase?
EDIT, it does, sorry
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The Etrex produces a GPX file that can be uploaded to Strava.
I thought Strava only accepted FIT files
GPX uploads just fine to Starva.... I frequently upload my Etrex HCx (ancient, I know, but it "just works") gpx tracks when I forget to start the phone Strava app.
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Only downside is scarce availability... only Ebay, wonder if those Ebay sellers offer warranty... maybe best to wait for Wiggle to restock... somewhere else it says discontinued
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Only downside is scarce availability...
???
https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/garmin-etrex-20x/17861/p
http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/garmin-etrex-20x-gps-birdseye-select-ea114146
http://www.handtec.co.uk/garmin-etrex-20x-with-topoactive-west-europe-010-01508-05.html
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Only downside is scarce availability...
???
https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/garmin-etrex-20x/17861/p
http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/garmin-etrex-20x-gps-birdseye-select-ea114146
http://www.handtec.co.uk/garmin-etrex-20x-with-topoactive-west-europe-010-01508-05.html
;D
Didn't think to look in outdoors shop... Wiggle syndrome
Duracell rechargeable any good or there are better ones around?
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Duracell rechargeable any good or there are better ones around?
Dunno, but I use these (http://www.batterylogic.co.uk/images/nimh-rechargeable-batteries/Fujitsu-AA-White-2000mAh-rechargeable-battery-HR-3UTG-10B.jpg) from here http://www.batterylogic.co.uk/nimh-aa-rechargeable-battery.asp
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Sanyo 'black' Eneloops are the best rechargables on the market, according to independent** tests.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-2500mAh-Eneloop-BK-3HCDE-4BE/dp/B00JWC40JY/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1501005273&sr=1-1&keywords=sanyo+eneloops (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-2500mAh-Eneloop-BK-3HCDE-4BE/dp/B00JWC40JY/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1501005273&sr=1-1&keywords=sanyo+eneloops)
** ie, my tests. :thumbsup:
It seems a lot of money for a massive in size AA powered GPS unit...
Massive may be fair comment when compared with something like an Edge 200, but compared with an Edge Touring or an Edge 800, there's actually very little in it. Yes the Edge is slightly slimmer, but really the size/elegance difference is not great.
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The trip display seems to show useful information, rather than fake power output and dubious calories consumption like the Edges.
Obviously it won't have an option to cut the time as you go lower than 5 km/h, but to be honest is not much use other than self gratification. I like the "time to sunset" feature and I assume it also has a "time to sunrise" equivalent?
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Obviously it won't have an option to cut the time as you go lower than 5 km/h, but to be honest is not much use other than self gratification.
Not sure what you mean, but the eTrex maintains both moving and overall time trip counters.
I like the "time to sunset" feature and I assume it also has a "time to sunrise" equivalent?
Indeed. It'll tell you when's best to go hunting and fishing too. Presumably there's an animal-specific model that uses the same algorithm to suggest when it's best to go foraging for food...
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I’m not sure I’d recommend an eTrex to a self-described luddite (even if that’s probably an exaggeration). The user interface is probably the least intuitive of any electronic device I’ve owned. We’re talking seriously geeky operation.
Furthermore, even when you know how to use it, it takes a long time to do basic tasks (e.g. enter an address one character at a time with the mini joystick, scroll the map, or calculate a route). The whole thing feels archaic, like a pocket computer from 1990. Using it, you’d never guess smartphones happened. I know you don’t have a smartphone, but be careful what you wish for!
I have an Edge Touring (for sale, would you believe (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104169.0)) and an eTrex 20. I’ve decided to keep the latter for now, mainly because the Edge Touring has too many serious software bugs (like all the Edges I’ve used) and itself has a stupid user interface (albeit a little more modern).
Massive may be fair comment when compared with something like an Edge 200, but compared with an Edge Touring or an Edge 800, there's actually very little in it.
Disagree. It feels about twice the size, in part because the mount is huge and sits high off the handlebar.
I don’t recommend the Edge Touring, but it’s definitely easier to use than my eTrex 20.
If I hadn’t invested perhaps literally a week learning how to use Garmins, I would try another brand.
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Duracell rechargeable any good or there are better ones around?
I much prefer eneloops - e.g. like these from Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-2500mAh-Eneloop-BK-3HCDE-4BE/dp/B00JWC40JY/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1501014590&sr=1-2&keywords=eneloop+a=). The hold their charge and seem to last longer... YMMV??
Oops crosspost with FF, sorry!
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The whole thing feels archaic, like a pocket computer from 1990.
I'd agree with that synopsis.
The modern eTrexes' user interface has evolved directly from that of the original 'Yellow' eTrex, which was designed in the early noughties as the sort of device someone with proper navigation skills would use like a compass alongside a paper map. As technology progressed the eTrex range gained new features (mapping, colour, USB, auto-routing, SD cards, etc), but kept the same UI paradigm. Around the time of the eTrex 10/20/30 they 'simplified' the UI, but in practice all this really meant was that they moved things around a bit and removed some of the niche features that some of us found quite useful.
If you come to them with expectations based on smartphone apps, TomTom-style car satnavs or traditional bicycle computers, it's going to be a bit of a culture shock.
(The Edge sprang up somewhere relatively late in this evolutionary process, so there's quite a lot in common, but a reinvented - and somewhat more intuitive - UI that's trying to be a competitive cyclist's training aid.)
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Oh I don't know the first Edges turned up in 2004. I would not call that relatively late in the process compared to the original Etrexes. Only a couple of years between the first models.
Believe it or not the first Edges were stable over distance after about the third firmware release. The crs course format or tcx format could be loaded and navigated as a breadcrumb trail with up to 10,000 point. Partly why I moved from my first etrex to edge back then. Nowadays I'm etrex after too many crashes on the second edge I got around 2009 ish. Due to the rubber seal disintegrating and the original edge being discontinued by then.
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That early? (I'd have looked it up, but I'm DNS-impaired at present). Their popularity seems very recent.
Mind you, the hiking handhelds didn't start with the eTrex, but it was a major re-design compared to those from the dark days of Selective Availability. While the UI and hardware design was new, the waypoint/route/track paradigm was much older.
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And I agree with Kim’s comments.
In defence of the eTrex 20, the hardware is pretty impressive for the money. It feels more like a professional tool than a gadget. The battery door closes like a submarine hatch. The rubber armour is nice. With eneloops, the battery life is longer than the already long claim – as opposed to the Edges that miss their specifications when new, never mind after a couple of hundred cycles on the built-in li-ion battery. And, best of all, the eTrex 20 display has much higher contrast than the Edges in bright light, especially with the backlights off. I had many near-crashes while struggling to see the map on my Edge 800 on overcast days.
The Edges have a habit of losing data. They have a variety of ways of doing this. Mine have lost tracks or parts of tracks at café stops. Other times they’ve shut down randomly. Other times they’ve shut down at a specific point on a route (every time), whether because of electromagnetic radiation or another software bug I don’t know. And when they shut down, getting them to pick up the route again is not always trivial. Other times, old rides have disappeared from the history.
Garmin has been almost unbelievably poor at fixing these bugs with software updates, instead often introducing new bugs or even new models with the same bugs. Honestly, someone should be in jail over this.
The eTrex 20 is a lot more reliable at showing you where to go and recording a track, and that’s important because it’s pretty much the whole point of these things (unless you’re a Strava metrics nerd). Mind you, the eTrex 20 rattles in its mount and sometimes shuts down on hard bumps, likely because the AA cells momentarily disconnect. Solving that is my next challenge.
The eTrex 30 (or 30x) has an altimeter and compass, the first of which I miss on my eTrex 20. However, when I bought mine there were, you guessed it, software bugs with the eTrex 30’s altimeter and compass. I didn’t trust Garmin to fix those, though I think they actually did in this instance. Perhaps someone here remembers details.
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That early? (I'd have looked it up, but I'm DNS-impaired at present). Their popularity seems very recent.
Mind you, the hiking handhelds didn't start with the eTrex, but it was a major re-design compared to those from the dark days of Selective Availability. While the UI and hardware design was new, the waypoint/route/track paradigm was much older.
Again not really. The GPX schema for routes, waypoints, tracks was first released in 2002. I'm not aware of that classification being that way much earlier unless you have links. I be interested to see how they were defined before the first GPX schema. But my recall is that it was a mess with no unified concepts or terminology across the manufacturers till GPX was thrashed out. The edge units in 2004 didn't really have a concept of routes, tracks, waypoints. You had courses and course points. The course points being the simplified version of what are now called cue points. Even the recorded track wasn't it is now, it was a recorded course with the crs schema not a tracklog as we now know them.
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The eTrex HCx series was the best for reliable logging, I reckon. It had an option to write a copy of the current track to daily GPX files on the SD card which it then had no means of accessing. That would survive most software/hardware failures and any kind of PEBKAC error up to and including a full factory reset.
The 10/20/30 made the hardware a lot more reliable but did away with that useful feature, and put the master reset a couple of clicks away from the trip computer reset. I've not cocked that one up yet, but it's only a matter of time with sleep deprivation, gloves or cold fingers.
(As for rattling in the mount, I think that's a red herring: Handlebars vibrate - though as there's no visual reference it's not usually obvious to the rider how much - and merely attaching the device slightly more securely to the vibrating handlebar might change the frequency of the vibration somewhat, but certainly won't make it stop.)
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Again not really. The GPX schema for routes, waypoints, tracks was first released in 2002. I'm not aware of that classification being that way much earlier unless you have links.
Serial Garmins like the yellow eTrex didn't use GPX files. I only briefly used a 1990s one, but it had the concept of setting waypoints and recording tracks. No idea what computer connectivity (if any) that had. I would not be surprised if the GPX schema was inspired by the functionality of contemporary devices.
Anyway, this doesn't really matter to the OP. The point is there's a long history which is why the user interfaces seem odd by modern standards.
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The UI is simple. Lack of competition so no evolutionary drivers to improve it. Sadly the competition at the time was much worse and they died by the wayside.
Early smart phone Uis were ugly and crap to be fair. But fortunately healthy competition particularly when Apple joined in changed that. Of course the smart phones also have therir ancestry in the touch screen tablets of a similar size back in the early 90's
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Original yellow etrex only dates from 2000, and was released whilst the draft route, track, waypoints parts of the GPX schema were beinfpg discussed and agreed. I'm pretty sure the hand held units as used in the first gulf war (which pre dated etrex) didn't have a route, track, waypoints setup. Waypoint was there but I don't think the other two were.
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I’m not sure I’d recommend an eTrex to a self-described luddite (even if that’s probably an exaggeration). The user interface is probably the least intuitive of any electronic device I’ve owned. We’re talking seriously geeky operation.
Furthermore, even when you know how to use it, it takes a long time to do basic tasks (e.g. enter an address one character at a time with the mini joystick, scroll the map, or calculate a route). The whole thing feels archaic, like a pocket computer from 1990. Using it, you’d never guess smartphones happened. I know you don’t have a smartphone, but be careful what you wish for!
I have an Edge Touring (for sale, would you believe (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104169.0)) and an eTrex 20. I’ve decided to keep the latter for now, mainly because the Edge Touring has too many serious software bugs (like all the Edges I’ve used) and itself has a stupid user interface (albeit a little more modern).
Massive may be fair comment when compared with something like an Edge 200, but compared with an Edge Touring or an Edge 800, there's actually very little in it.
Disagree. It feels about twice the size, in part because the mount is huge and sits high off the handlebar.
I don’t recommend the Edge Touring, but it’s definitely easier to use than my eTrex 20.
If I hadn’t invested perhaps literally a week learning how to use Garmins, I would try another brand.
Luddite in the sense that I draw a line at smartphones operating bicycle related things. I can work out how things work (I think!? ::-) )
Problem with other brands is that all I see are performance related toys, for cyclists who are interested in going 20 miles full on and downloading all sorts of stats. I would like something to ride 200 miles or more without too much bother whether I am on a "segmant" or not.
The only downsides of teh Etrex that I can see are its bulky size and the fact that the handlebar mount seems less than perfect and probably needs rubber bands to hold it
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If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200. Not sure if still available though.
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If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200. Not sure if still available though.
I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work
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so enough for a 200.
I can probably just about do a flat 400 in that time... ;D 8)
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If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200. Not sure if still available though.
I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work
Originally but they did finally fix the crashing when following a course. There have been worse Edges since mind.
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I think the 500 is only available through EBay outlets these days, mostly second hand/reconditioned. I think it was pretty stable, I know a few people who still use them but they were a bit prone to the breadcrumb doing a disappearing act at times and they have the hassle of needing a special charging cable so as not to reset.
I have a 200 and an Etrex and use the latter most of the time. As has been noted it's not particularly user friendly out of the box and it's a bit chunky but very stable, I never found the routing with turn by turn directions very reliable so I just stick to following a track, a pink line on a map which is a lot better than following a breadcrumb on the 200. In terms of the mount, I've never needed a band (think this may have been an older model thing) but I do use a lanyard in case I've not pushed it fully home in a sleep deprived state. I've used Garmin mounts rather than cheap EBay versions and just layered the bottom with insulation tape at the first sign of any rattle. The other thing that may be of interest is the 20 doesn't have the altimeter so your climbing figure will tend to show as a lot lower on Strava, similar to the 200, you'll need the 30 for that (and you'll have to do a little 'fix' to make Strava recognise it).
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It's a jungle, isn't it?
GPS is a simple idea, not sure why they make it so complicated
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If you want to use HR/cadence/power ANT+ sensors, I don't think the Etrex 20 supports them.
If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200. Not sure if still available though.
I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work
Based on a fairly vague and pointless sample of people I know, I reckon it's the most reliable; it seems to be the newer Edge units with the extra features (bluetooth etc.) that go wrong more. I'm happy with my 500 - I do also have a big clunky Etrex Vista, but hardly ever use it.
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If you want to use HR/cadence/power ANT+ sensors, I don't think the Etrex 20 supports them.
If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200. Not sure if still available though.
I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work
Based on a fairly vague and pointless sample of people I know, I reckon it's the most reliable; it seems to be the newer Edge units with the extra features (bluetooth etc.) that go wrong more. I'm happy with my 500 - I do also have a big clunky Etrex Vista, but hardly ever use it.
But the 500 has the same "charge on the go" issues as my 200, as I understand... you connect it with a OTG cable, it is happy for 5 minutes then it keeps giving the "lost power" signal, including beeping, which is the most annoying thing ever
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I'm still happy with my Edge 305, still going after 10+ years. If/when it packs up, I'm going to have fun looking for a replacement.
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The only downsides of teh Etrex that I can see are its bulky size and the fact that the handlebar mount seems less than perfect and probably needs rubber bands to hold it
I've never had a problem of my Etrex escaping from the mount (inc. various corrugated gravel roads), but I do use a proper branded Garmin mount. The cheaper versions that one can buy from Amazon etc. are rubbish. However, I have a lanyard wrapped around the handlebars as an insurance policy.
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The point is there's a long history which is why the user interfaces seem odd by modern standards.
The problem with the Etrex 20/30 UI is that it's a touchscreen UI without (thank goodness) a touchscreen.
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I'm still happy with my Edge 305, still going after 10+ years. If/when it packs up, I'm going to have fun looking for a replacement.
It's not that fun at all... looks like spending money to downgrade to a lesser product... solving one problem and creating three you didn't have before >:(
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Well that's true - Garmins have definitely regressed over the last 10 years.
I've never had a problem of my Etrex escaping from the mount
In fact my mount snapped in 2 (well all right, I broke it) at the start of this year, with the bottom half (including the latch) breaking off. Since then I've been using the remaining half-a-mount all year, including several Alpine descents, and the E30 is still a tight fit and rock solid. Genuine Garmin mount, the cheap copies seem awful. Of course I've always used a lanyard, but never once has it been needed.
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I'm still happy with my Edge 305, still going after 10+ years. If/when it packs up, I'm going to have fun looking for a replacement.
It's not that fun at all... looks like spending money to downgrade to a lesser product... solving one problem and creating three you didn't have before >:(
Yes, sorry, my use of 'fun' was intended to be ironic.
I've been reading for years of the 'developments' on the GPS front, knowing that eventually my 305 would gurgle and die, and have formed the impression that all current alternatives seem to lack stability. Of course, that same period of time has also seen the rise in social media, forums, 'feedback' etc etc so my impression could be ill-formed. The Wahoo has probably been the first product that's made me perk up a little.
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GPS is a simple idea, not sure why they make it so complicated
Simple ???
Atomic clocks in orbit, trilateral calculations to find three unknowns (x,y and z) using very large numbers (speed of light) and very small units (nanoseconds), compensations for the unpredictable effects of solar winds and the predictable effects of relativity, as well as terrestrial super-events such as earthquakes ... need I go on.
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In fact my mount snapped in 2 (well all right, I broke it) at the start of this year, with the bottom half (including the latch) breaking off. Since then I've been using the remaining half-a-mount all year, including several Alpine descents, and the E30 is still a tight fit and rock solid. Genuine Garmin mount, the cheap copies seem awful. Of course I've always used a lanyard, but never once has it been needed.
My mount has been secure but I can remember of couple of times looking down to see the unit dangling from the lanyard and this has followed followed cafe stop removal some way into a long ride so it's been me not pushing it fully home correctly but I've been very glad of the lanyard. Agree, it's worth spending money on the (overpriced) Garmin mounts.
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I've never had a problem of my Etrex escaping from the mount (inc. various corrugated gravel roads), but I do use a proper branded Garmin mount. The cheaper versions that one can buy from Amazon etc. are rubbish. However, I have a lanyard wrapped around the handlebars as an insurance policy.
Second all this.
I can think of a handful of situations when my eTrex30 has escaped from it's mount:
- One and a half (it unclipped, but didn't come all the way out of the bracket) were on my Brompton, where space constraints mean that removing the steerer-mounted water bottle from its holder ineptly can result in clobbering the Garmin from below, mimicking the release action.
- One case of being bashed on something while loading my bike onto a train.
- Two incidents of being kicked by a newbie ineptly mounting my recumbent.
One crash, where I fell forwards onto the unit. ETA: Correction, this was my Vista HCx, which used a different (and IMHO much less good) type of mount.
In all cases the eTrex was restrained by the lanyard (which is prudent on a bike and useful on foot) and undamaged, and I've had several other crashes and done some seriously bouncy MTB off-roading where it's remained firmly attached for the duration.
I bought one of the no-name imitations mounts. The quality was the same as the official version, but the tolerances were slightly off, causing the clip action to be laughably loose. Other people have had more success with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they come from the reject bin at the same factory.
The Edge mount looks flimsy in comparison, but I suppose it's taking less weight.
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My two real Garmin mounts have** some text moulded into the back surface, near the latch. My two cheapo fakes don't. So not from the reject bin.
** or had, in the case of the one I snapped in half. I have to say the remaining stub looks much more elegant on the handlebars.
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I have found a hidden folder on my Garmin 200 containing a lot of files I thought I had deleted... removing them freed ou a lot of space and I am confident I can now upload more and bigger GPX files... so one problem solved
If I find a way to recharge it on the go without it going ballistic every time I connect it to an AA charger (using a OTG cable), I might not need an upgrade after all.
So far I have managed to mute the tones to avoid the hassle of constant beeping when plugged on the go, but that of course also mutes the "off course" warning. Is an Anker power bank going to be the solution? Some say it does just the same...
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I would suggest trying a dumb charger cable not an OTG cable. Most cables are sold as 'data' or 'sync' cables but maybe you want one that specifically isn't. The ones that come supplied with a power bank are probably a good bet. Possibly something like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-3-Pack-PowerLine-Micro-USB/dp/B016BFFV6K/ref=sr_1_1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-3-Pack-PowerLine-Micro-USB/dp/B016BFFV6K/ref=sr_1_1)
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I would suggest trying a dumb charger cable not an OTG cable. Most cables are sold as 'data' or 'sync' cables but maybe you want one that specifically isn't. The ones that come supplied with a power bank are probably a good bet. Possibly something like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-3-Pack-PowerLine-Micro-USB/dp/B016BFFV6K/ref=sr_1_1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-3-Pack-PowerLine-Micro-USB/dp/B016BFFV6K/ref=sr_1_1)
Mine is allegedly a charge only cable, no data... the unit is happy with it and does not shut down and terminate the ride as it would do with a normal cable, but it keeps swinging between "in charge" and " lost power connection". I thought it was a voltage problem of AA chargers, but others with an Anker seem to experience a similar problem
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If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200. Not sure if still available though.
I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work
My Edge 500 has occasionally crashed while following a course, but is usually okay. I occasionally follow courses, or put one in there as a backup in case I need it, but the course function is a bit minimal and annoying tbh. For what I use it for (logging my rides, basic bike computer functions, recording and displaying HR and power data) it's rock solid and has never caused me a problem. I don't know anyone else who's had a problem with it either. I wouldn't use it to habitually navigate though: it's okay at a pinch but not really designed to do that.
I've had mine for 3.5 years and the battery still seems to be doing okay. I lent it to a friend for a 24 hour TT, he turned it on at 8 hours and it lasted until the end, with the HRM and power meter detection disabled but with the backlight permanently on at 30% brightness. On a 12 hour TT when I'm recording power and heart rate, I still have about 25% battery at the end.
I've got an Etrex 20 that I use for navigating on tour and while it does what it does fine, I'd look for something else if I lost it tomorrow. The UI is a bit antiquated, the screen isn't great and I've always hated the joysticks. It's also a faff to get the data off it, as it won't record tracks to the SD card.
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I have found a hidden folder on my Garmin 200 containing a lot of files I thought I had deleted... removing them freed ou a lot of space and I am confident I can now upload more and bigger GPX files... so one problem solved
Can you give the details, although I don't use it much I've always struggled with freeing up space on my 200
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I have found a hidden folder on my Garmin 200 containing a lot of files I thought I had deleted... removing them freed ou a lot of space and I am confident I can now upload more and bigger GPX files... so one problem solved
Can you give the details, although I don't use it much I've always struggled with freeing up space on my 200
On a PC go onto control panel/appearances/folder options open the show hidden folders menu and tick the "show hiden folders and files" option. You will realise there are files which are stored there and you don't need.
There are also files you do need, so be careful what you dispose of... in my case was a lot of FIT files which I thought I deleted, but clearly got backed up in a hidden folder called Trashes
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On a PC go onto control panel/appearances/folder options open the show hidden folders menu and tick the "show hiden folders and files" option. You will realise there are files which are stored there and you don't need.
There are also files you do need, so be careful what you dispose of... in my case was a lot of FIT files which I thought I deleted, but clearly got backed up in a hidden folder called Trashes
Yay, found trashes full of FIT files from years ago, deleted and have about 75% free (as opposed to about 10%) ... mega :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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which one would you recommend for a luddite that is not interested in syncing a GPS unit to a smart phone to enjoy the marvels of modern apps?
https://www.strava.com/activities/1103632062
I can't speak for the Bolt, but here are a few notes about the Edge Touring.
* It does a really good job of turn-by-turn navigation with turn alerts if you navigate along a pre-planned course. I never let it off the leash to work out its own routes. In the past that has not ended well. It can't read my mind and know whether I'm in the mood for big roads or little cycle paths.
* You can use it with a power pack plugged in to it, and recharge on the go, but be warned that when you unplug the power pack it will wait a bit, then warn you, then switch itself off. You have to keep an eagle eye on it spot the warning to keep it from switching off. This is important because ...
* ... if it is switched off and on again it will not continue the current recorded ride. You have to save the previous bit and start again. If you are relying on the GPS to tell you how far you have gone (eg to match up with a route sheet) this is annoying.
* Compared to a general purpose AA powered Garmin there is not much to set up and it is a lot less confusing initially.
I think the Edge Touring is a very nice little unit. Like all techy gismos you have to get used to its quirks.
However, I don't entirely trust it. I still use an AA powered Garmin (a 60CSx) in my pack for ride recording/backup.
I think I have read enough horror stories about Edge Touring failing mid ride to put me off the product altogether.
Etrex 20? Reliable but a bit archaic
Wahoo Bolt? Read only good comments, except for reliance on a smart phone for the setup, which seems a bit OTT, but a sign of the times... can't even wipe your ass anymore without a smartphone
Dunno... think my Edge 200 seems more and more the viable option and I understand why these old units still command high prices on Ebay
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How about an Edge 520? Much more reliable than the Edge Touring by all accounts, can cope with mapping, has a 15 hour battery life, is about the same price as your other options.
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Or for something different, look at the Foretrex 601. Its much smaller than an Etrex, and very good battery life (uses AAAs). No mapping, but you should be able to load a route to follow.
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How about an Edge 520? Much more reliable than the Edge Touring by all accounts, can cope with mapping, has a 15 hour battery life, is about the same price as your other options.
It seems very expensive for a unit with no default maps... I also don't see where the upgrade is to my Garmin 200... same battery life, same breadcrumb trail... better memory, but now that I have freed up space I am confident memoery will no longer be an issue
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The 520 is the same price as the Elemnt Bolt you were talking about just now, and maps are free over on Open Streetmap.
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The 520 is the same price as the Elemnt Bolt you were talking about just now, and maps are free over on Open Streetmap.
It seems that navigation is better on the bolt, price can be a tad lower and general feedback is that Wahoo are more reliable than Garmin
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* ... if it is switched off and on again it will not continue the current recorded ride. You have to save the previous bit and start again. If you are relying on the GPS to tell you how far you have gone (eg to match up with a route sheet) this is annoying.
Mine is happy to resume recording after being switched off and on, just ignore the save/delete options and press the right button.
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Ah ! That's very good to know .There have been a few times that could have been useful :)
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... and general feedback is that Wahoo are more reliable than Garmin
It seems that several people have reached the "Hell will freeze over before I buy another Garmin" stage and so will prefer anything else however silly the name, however mono the screen and however bizarre the setup routines. It's not really a rational basis for comparison.
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And the silly name and mono screen are “rational” objections? They make no difference to me (well, the mono screen is preferable, since it’s vastly more legible in daylight).
Here’s a good comparison (https://mashing53.cyclyc.com/wahoo-navigation-nailed-or-failed/) of the navigation of the Elemnt Bolt and Edge Touring.
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The 520 is the same price as the Elemnt Bolt you were talking about just now, and maps are free over on Open Streetmap.
It seems that navigation is better on the bolt, price can be a tad lower and general feedback is that Wahoo are more reliable than Garmin
Price: Both units come up as £200 for me at all the major online outlets.
The 520 is the same price as the Elemnt Bolt you were talking about just now, and maps are free over on Open Streetmap.
... and according to the review Samuel posted, Open Streetmap is exactly what is on the Bolt. I'm not trying to be down on Wahoo - I'd give them a serious look if either of my units died tomorrow - but you're judging on false premises if you think cost or availability of mapping is different between the two brands.
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With Wiggle platinum the Wahoo drops to 175 pounds... it's still a lot of money for what in essence is a glorified bike computer. I have to weigh in PROs and CONs of upgrading from a Garmin 200 which does more or less what I need it to do. If I can sort out the "charge on the go" problems, I don't really have a reason to upgrade anymore.
I have ordered an Anker, which in the worst case scenario will come handy to recharge lights on the go, while I am still dubious on whether to "upgrade" my battery lights to a dynamo setup... best case scenario will charge the 200 no problem
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... and general feedback is that Wahoo are more reliable than Garmin
It seems that several people have reached the "Hell will freeze over before I buy another Garmin" stage and so will prefer anything else however silly the name, however mono the screen and however bizarre the setup routines. It's not really a rational basis for comparison.
Having owned an eTrex, an Edge 510 and now a Wahoo Elemnt, I'm confident in saying that the Wahoo fits my needs the best. The mono screen is a non-issue. It's a reasonable resolution and has excellent daylight visibility. The "bizarre" setup routine is much nicer than the Garmin menu system if you're already a smartphone user, and since I already used Strava for ride logging and RideWithGPS for route planning, the automatic sync was a definite bonus. Reliability has been eTrex-like rather than Edge-like; the Edge had far too many unpredictable gremlins for my taste, whereas the Wahoo's quirks are at least consistent.
For a non-smartphone-user like the original poster, I do feel like the eTrex is the logical choice over an Edge. The Edge 520 doesn't do "proper" navigation with a map display, much like my Edge 510, which is less than ideal. The current higher end Edges have capacitative touch screens which apparently don't function too well when it's raining or when your fingers are sweaty, which seems like a definite misfeature for something designed for use by cyclists!
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Talking of rain, one of the slightly quirky things about the Bolt are the 3 recessed buttons at the bottom. When it rains they fill up & become little puddles! Doesn't seem to affect performance though.
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Could the Lezyne macro be the answer?
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/lezyne-macro-cycle-gps-with-mapping?sku=5360788863&source=igodigital
Half the price, much more battery, maps included... what's not to like?
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To reiterate, you can get third party maps for free so 'maps included' is neither here nor there.
If you haven't read him yet, dcrainmaker is probably the best resource online for GPS reviews.
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To reiterate, you can get third party maps for free so 'maps included' is neither here nor there.
If you haven't read him yet, dcrainmaker is probably the best resource online for GPS reviews.
He is...
And he likes the cheap Lezyne too... just over half the price for the SUper (24 hour battery) and less than half price for the Macro (22 hour battery)... reviews seem good... why nobody raves about Lezyne? I mean, 24 hours battery in the Audax world is life changing... it means you only really need to think about extra battery life for 600 or over
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If you haven't read him yet, dcrainmaker is probably the best resource online for GPS reviews.
But he still has his own biases. He cares about cycling fast for short distances, and doesn't go out in proper wet weather. So not necessarily relevant for audax etc.
And he's never reviewed any of the Etrex models.
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And he likes the cheap Lezyne too... just over half the price for the SUper (24 hour battery) and less than half price for the Macro (22 hour battery)... reviews seem good... why nobody raves about Lezyne? I mean, 24 hours battery in the Audax world is life changing... it means you only really need to think about extra battery life for 600 or over
Sounds like you should buy one and report back!
The Lezyne didn't exist when I bought my Wahoo. The Audax world is fairly small and most people don't change their GPSes once they've got something working that they're happy with, so not too surprising that the Lezyne hasn't had much discussion yet. Even the Wahoo units are only just starting to penetrate the hive mind's awareness.
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HK has a Lezyne and doesn't like it much (though she did early on). The charging port fills with water despite a rubber plug (bad positioning) and it has had some random data loss incidents.
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HK has a Lezyne and doesn't like it much (though she did early on). The charging port fills with water despite a rubber plug (bad positioning) and it has had some random data loss incidents.
Good to know, thanks
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I thought the Edge Touring has a transflective display? Doesn't look like it, or a very good one, from the picture here: https://mashing53.cyclyc.com/wahoo-navigation-nailed-or-failed/ Or is that an unrepresentative photo? (I've yet to see one IRL).
These kind of displays (as I experience with my Sony Smartwatch 3) can actually be good in daylight, albeit with little or no colour visible then. I'd want one of these with a new GPS unit to provide the best of both worlds: appearing like a regular full colour LCD in low light with the backlight on, and a decent reflective mono display in bright daylight with the backlight off saving power. In inbetweeny conditions with the backlight on, they work just as well from a combination of reflected and transmitted light.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display
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HK has a Lezyne and doesn't like it much (though she did early on). The charging port fills with water despite a rubber plug (bad positioning) and it has had some random data loss incidents.
Good to know, thanks
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=100466 might be of interest.
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HK has a Lezyne and doesn't like it much (though she did early on). The charging port fills with water despite a rubber plug (bad positioning) and it has had some random data loss incidents.
Good to know, thanks
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=100466 might be of interest.
Don't read GPX/TCX files???? WTF... rubbish
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Obviously Wiggle Support thoroughly understand the products they sell.
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Obviously Wiggle Support thoroughly understand the products they sell.
But then why you can't apparently upload a route from a computer, only via the app on a smartphone? Does it not suggest the file needs to be manipulated before being uploaded?
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HK only uses her Lezyne as a ride recorder, not for navigation, and I'm not entirely sure which model she uses.
From http://www.lezyne.com/product-gps-macrogps.php#.WXtHWITyu70
"Instant download of ride files (.fit) via plug-and-play flash drive technology (Windows/Mac) and upload directly to GPS Root website for ride analysis
Compatible with third-party sites like Strava and TrainingPeaks"
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That's for uploading your rides to your computer but navigation as far as I can tell has to be sent via a smartphone.
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I think I have solved the last of my problems... with an Anker 5000 battery I can indeed charge my Garmin 200 without issues, so the problem was indeed low voltage coming from the AA charger as I suspected
No need for a new unit! ;D
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The mono screen is a non-issue. It's a reasonable resolution and has excellent daylight visibility.
..so how does it perform after dark? I assume there is a LCD backlight?
I've been a etrex hcx user for many years but I fear their age is coming to a close and I'm not particularly enthused by the modern Garmin offerings. The option (AIUI) to do on the fly route planning on a phone app and use that to programme the bolt is particularly attractive... I ve had enough of squinting at 2" screens....
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The mono screen is a non-issue. It's a reasonable resolution and has excellent daylight visibility.
..so how does it perform after dark? I assume there is a LCD backlight?
I've been a etrex hcx user for many years but I fear their age is coming to a close and I'm not particularly enthused by the modern Garmin offerings. The option (AIUI) to do on the fly route planning on a phone app and use that to programme the bolt is particularly attractive... I ve had enough of squinting at 2" screens....
Yes, there is a backlight, which I keep on at all times to help with viewing and still get 16 hrs+ of battery life. The screen looks like a Kindle in terms of contrast and detail. In daylight - clearly visible : at night - very clearly visible!
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The mono screen is a non-issue. It's a reasonable resolution and has excellent daylight visibility.
..so how does it perform after dark? I assume there is a LCD backlight?
I've been a etrex hcx user for many years but I fear their age is coming to a close and I'm not particularly enthused by the modern Garmin offerings. The option (AIUI) to do on the fly route planning on a phone app and use that to programme the bolt is particularly attractive... I ve had enough of squinting at 2" screens....
As mentioned above, yes there's a backlight. The only slight annoyance is that there's no "do nothing, turn backlight on" button. This quirk is shared with the Garmin Edges but not the eTrex.
I would keep your expectations low about the on-the-fly route planning, although there's no technical reason why it couldn't work a good deal better than it currently does, and Wahoo have been pretty good about providing firmware updates that improve the product.
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My old etrex HCX has just decided to stop talking to the microSD card (no maps or card storage of tracks but otherwise fine for following an Audax track/long weekend riding. The problem results from water penetration of the battery case which IME is the main cause of long term failure. As it happens I've just sourced a replacement so hopefully I'm good for a couple more years though I am starting to get a bit jealous of the shiny...