Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: red marley on 21 July, 2009, 10:15:35 pm

Title: LEL - Where the hills are
Post by: red marley on 21 July, 2009, 10:15:35 pm: If you would like the appearance of hills on LEL to be a surprise, look away now...

I've had a go mapping the profiles of all 9 legs of the LEL using this technique (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20815.0). The thicker and darker the line, the higher the elevation. If a line gets thicker, you're going up hill!

(http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/acf/routeProfile1.png)

(http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/acf/routeProfile2.png)
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Chris S on 21 July, 2009, 10:27:28 pm: Nice work jwo!

It illustrates nicely how those who say "the first bit is flat" are a wee bit deceiving. Those who've ridden the Stevenage rides and others around there know - Cheshunt to Gamblingay isn't Fenland.

Also shows how we need to be ready for some fairly tired riders Southbound at Coxwold :o.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: border-rider on 21 July, 2009, 10:35:43 pm: we commented in 2005 that the bit round Cheshunt was a bit lumpy. Made worse by a Thorne start, which meant into and then straight out of Cheshunt.

It was far from flat around Lincoln too. But there are very long, tedious flat sections between them and especially both sides of Thorne

Overall the Northern 700 or so is quite upsy-downsy, and the Southern 350 on each end of it is pretty benign on the whole.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: MSeries on 21 July, 2009, 10:40:09 pm: Quote from: Chris S on 21 July, 2009, 10:27:28 pm
Nice work jwo!

It illustrates nicely how those who say "the first bit is flat" are a wee bit deceiving. Those who've ridden the Stevenage rides and others around there know - Cheshunt to Gamblingay isn't Fenland.

Also shows how we need to be ready for some fairly tired riders Southbound at Coxwold :o.
Fens they are not CHris, but they are not real hills. ;) Coxwold is far enough out of the hills to allow for some recovery anyway
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Chris S on 21 July, 2009, 10:43:34 pm: Quote from: MSeries on 21 July, 2009, 10:40:09 pm
Fens they are not CHris, but they are not real hills. ;) Coxwold is far enough out of the hills to allow for some recovery anyway

:D

Real Hills are what you are used to.

We'll see how you all fair on the way south. You northerners will be fine ;).
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: MSeries on 21 July, 2009, 10:45:28 pm: Quote from: Chris S on 21 July, 2009, 10:43:34 pm
Quote from: MSeries on 21 July, 2009, 10:40:09 pm
Fens they are not CHris, but they are not real hills. ;) Coxwold is far enough out of the hills to allow for some recovery anyway

:D

Real Hills are what you are used to.

We'll see how you all fair on the way south. You northerners will be fine ;).
Its the 200 miles of flat that'll do me in. I have a 7-10 hour sleep stopped near Middleton T so Coxwold south I reckon I'll be in fine fettle. I am climbing well this year too.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Really Ancien on 21 July, 2009, 10:48:00 pm: Are the vectors accurate? In 2001 the problem was the headwind on the return. An extension of this approach would be to plot the apparent effect of wind direction. As a large rider with a triple chainset and close ratio block, I'm equipped for adverse winds. The polar opposite would be a light rider on fixed. The elevation data is a constant, the wind is a variable, and one which potentially favours me, so I'm pretty sanguine about it.

Damon.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: MSeries on 21 July, 2009, 10:50:02 pm: Low profile riders with a triple do OK in winds too.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Greenbank on 21 July, 2009, 10:50:38 pm: Good work Jo.

The steepest bits IMHO are (all relatively short):-

a) a few short sharp snaps outside Cheshunt (both directions)
a.5) Bullocks Lane climbing into Hertford and Port Hill climbing up to Bengeo
b) Lincoln (Southbound only, if it goes the way I think it does)
c) The climb up through Crayke and again up to Coxwold (both dirs)
d) After the bridge at Whorlton (although it wasn't as bad as I remembered it from the Border Raid, north only)
e) A couple of bits of Yad Moss, just after the ski-lift if I remember correctly (north) otherwise it's a tame climb, just long
f) Coming up through Alston Southbound will be a tough one (south)
g) The insanity between Canonbie and Langholm that isn't on the route thankfully.
h) The first few snaps after Langholm (north) I was starting to worry that the whole of the B709 would be like these.
i) The A7 coming southbound until you turn off onto the B roads, especially if it's a busy time of day.

The climbs on the B709 going North are a nice gradient for fixed climbing. Coming back they're shorter (and therefore steeper).

If I do sleep at Eskdalemuir I may leave a bunch of stuff there whilst I nip up to Dalkeith and back to save me lugging it over all those hills. If that's allowed of course, otherwise I'll just stick it in a nearby hedge. :)

The steepest is probably Crayke.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: border-rider on 21 July, 2009, 10:53:54 pm: The only bit that was a real issue on fixed was Alston going South. I don't recall anything else being a problem.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: MSeries on 21 July, 2009, 10:55:59 pm: Quote from: Greenbank on 21 July, 2009, 10:50:38 pm
The steepest is probably Crayke.

:thumbsup: We talked about routing around that but it is the shortest route, the first hill for over 200 miles and a good view. I did it on 70" Fixed when first survey the route in a 200km then again when I wrote the instructions.

It's easily avoided though
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Panoramix on 21 July, 2009, 10:57:09 pm: Nice work jwo, I really like these maps!
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Swarm_Catcher on 22 July, 2009, 07:53:50 am: I like these maps too - they are pieces of art! I want the northern section, without the legend and place names, framed up.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: red marley on 22 July, 2009, 09:16:08 am: Quote from: Swarm_Catcher on 22 July, 2009, 07:53:50 am
I like these maps too - they are pieces of art! I want the northern section, without the legend and place names, framed up.

High resolution PDFs of all the legs without any annotation can be found here (http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/acf/routeProfiles.zip). Also included is a higher resolution version of the annotated map above. Frames not included I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Mr Larrington on 22 July, 2009, 09:43:21 am: Quote from: Greenbank on 21 July, 2009, 10:50:38 pm
f) Coming up through Alston Southbound will be a tough one (south)

Doubly so if it's (whispers) raining.

Do not ask me how I know this :(
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Nuncio on 22 July, 2009, 10:47:31 am: Quote from: Swarm_Catcher on 22 July, 2009, 07:53:50 am
I like these maps too - they are pieces of art! I want the northern section, without the legend and place names, framed up.
and with those nasty thick lines narrowed a bit please.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: alan on 22 July, 2009, 10:54:07 am: Quote from: MSeries on 21 July, 2009, 10:45:28 pm
I am climbing well this year too.

Yes indeed.I might rename you Paul Daniels as I witness you disappearing up hills in future ;D
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: coll_coll on 22 July, 2009, 05:56:56 pm: Being from Suffolk I found the Venta 300 in the South Downs suprisingly lumpy - how would the thickness of its lines compare?
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: vistaed on 22 July, 2009, 06:03:39 pm: I really like those maps, but knowing the hills are there isn't going to make them go away! And it's the wind I fear more!
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: simonp on 22 July, 2009, 06:40:04 pm: Try to avoid baked beans then.

:hand:
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: coll_coll on 23 July, 2009, 12:41:44 am: Ok, so I had to ask - what's the total climb...?
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: simonp on 23 July, 2009, 03:00:25 am: Quote from: coll_coll on 23 July, 2009, 12:41:44 am
Ok, so I had to ask - what's the total climb...?

The track's in Tracklogs here, so I'll check tomorrow what that says.

Note that it overestimates badly in some areas.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: scottlington on 23 July, 2009, 07:41:53 am: Quote from: coll_coll on 23 July, 2009, 12:41:44 am
Ok, so I had to ask - what's the total climb...?

Not a lot. O:-)
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Greenbank on 23 July, 2009, 11:23:07 am: At a guess I'd say less than 8000m in total. So there is more climbing on the Bryan Chapman in under half the distance.

One way, not quite the exact route..

(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/lel_profile_full.jpg)
(Bit spiky as I haven't cleaned it up where the GPS was switched on or under a petrol station canopy.)

Cheshunt to Gamlingay is "average", i.e. 650m in 65km or so.
From there's it's flat until the climb up to Crake/Coxwold (near 400km).
The big dip/climb at 240km is Lincoln, which you won't do going Northbound.
Then you get to the big long drags up the big hills.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: coll_coll on 23 July, 2009, 11:53:49 am: So less pro rata than the Dunwich Dynamo 09 (with rides to and from I recorded 277km with 2205m of climbing. Feeling better :)
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: LEL on 23 July, 2009, 12:10:58 pm: Hills are quite simply wherever you feel most tired.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Salvatore on 23 July, 2009, 12:52:06 pm: Many riders will suffer on the 10.5 km stretch south of Sandtoft (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=474356&Y=408203&A=Y&Z=120). 10.5 km, dead straight, no hedges, no features, little habitation. No fun, even with a tailwind. And when you get to the end, there's nothing but a right-angled bend and 4.5 km more of the same. The altitude varies between 2m and 3m ASL. It's the only bit I'm not looking forward to.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: border-rider on 23 July, 2009, 01:07:56 pm: That tedium of that part was relieved for us in 2001 by having to wait 30 minutes whilst the police measured the scene of a fatal car crash.

In 2005 I think I had a doze on a bench near there on the way back :)
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Greenbank on 23 July, 2009, 01:11:22 pm: Quote from: John Spooner on 23 July, 2009, 12:52:06 pm
Many riders will suffer on the 10.5 km stretch south of Sandtoft (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=474356&Y=408203&A=Y&Z=120). 10.5 km, dead straight, no hedges, no features, little habitation. No fun, even with a tailwind. And when you get to the end, there's nothing but a right-angled bend and 4.5 km more of the same. The altitude varies between 2m and 3m ASL. It's the only bit I'm not looking forward to.

Doing that bit in the dark helps alleviate the boredom. As does missing a turn (a GPS is good as long as you remember to look at it) and taking a detour along the Trent beforehand: (Zoom in on that bit here: Bicycle Path - London Edinburgh Actual at Bikely.com (http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/266092) to see).
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: Salvatore on 23 July, 2009, 01:39:02 pm: I rode it both ways in the dark in 2001, and both ways in daylight in 2005. 2009 riders have it easy, only riding it southbound.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: mattc on 23 July, 2009, 04:39:49 pm: Quote from: Greenbank on 23 July, 2009, 01:11:22 pm
Quote from: John Spooner on 23 July, 2009, 12:52:06 pm
Many riders will suffer on the 10.5 km stretch south of Sandtoft (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=474356&Y=408203&A=Y&Z=120). 10.5 km, dead straight, no hedges, no features, little habitation. No fun, even with a tailwind. And when you get to the end, there's nothing but a right-angled bend and 4.5 km more of the same. The altitude varies between 2m and 3m ASL. It's the only bit I'm not looking forward to.

Doing that bit in the dark helps alleviate the boredom. As does missing a turn (a GPS is good as long as you remember to look at it) and taking a detour along the Trent beforehand: (Zoom in on that bit here: Bicycle Path - London Edinburgh Actual at Bikely.com (http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/266092) to see).
Your diversion looks quite appealing to me! (I've ridden this bit both ways, getting to/from York. It had some interesting raptors, no other redeeming features. I predict mid-west USAians being well suited.)
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: mikewigley on 23 July, 2009, 05:31:15 pm: Quote from: John Spooner on 23 July, 2009, 01:39:02 pm
I rode it both ways in the dark in 2001, and both ways in daylight in 2005. 2009 riders have it easy, only riding it southbound.

I've trained for the 7km Sandtoft straight. Our Easter Arrow route featured the 10km absolutely straight road towards Boston, from Revesby Bridge to Frithville.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 23 July, 2009, 07:30:47 pm: Quote from: John Spooner on 23 July, 2009, 12:52:06 pm
Many riders will suffer on the 10.5 km stretch south of Sandtoft (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=474356&Y=408203&A=Y&Z=120). 10.5 km, dead straight, no hedges, no features, little habitation. No fun, even with a tailwind. And when you get to the end, there's nothing but a right-angled bend and 4.5 km more of the same. The altitude varies between 2m and 3m ASL. It's the only bit I'm not looking forward to.

I didn't mind that bit in 2005. I could ignore the route sheet for a short while and just ride and let my mind drift. YMMV
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: simonp on 23 July, 2009, 07:43:55 pm: Absolutely hated the flat bits of PBP towards the end.

Hated the flat bits of Cambridge-York-Cambridge 600.

Hated the flat bits of South then North 600.
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: red marley on 23 July, 2009, 07:52:14 pm: One of my highlights of PBP was on one of the flat bits in that last stage. I had the scent of Paris in my nostrils by that point and decided to go into tucked time trial position and peg it. A car then approached and slowed down to match my speed. The driver then wound down his window ready to say something. My Brit cycling intuition was to brace myself for some abuse or a happy slap, but the driver just wedged his knees under his steering wheel and started clapping.

Unfortunately, even Cheshunt wont be smellable from Sandtoft
Title: Re: Where the hills are
Post by: MSeries on 24 July, 2009, 09:03:53 am: Some epic thread drift here, a thread entitled "Where the hills are is talking about pancake flat roads" !!!!