Author Topic: aaa total climb on garmin  (Read 1695 times)

aaa total climb on garmin
« on: 17 October, 2011, 12:21:21 pm »
What is wrong with my gps units . Have noticed that they all give about 3/4 of the total climb  . Are they all wrong and how does Audax uk work it out . This has been a niggle for the last 3 or 4 years or are they all inflated to cover some rides that don't deserve points. 

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #1 on: 17 October, 2011, 12:28:48 pm »
What is wrong with my gps units

Nothing, they're just not that accurate for working out total climbing over a cycle ride.

3 GPSes did the same 200km Audax (on the same day). One gave 1400m climbing, one 1800m climbing and the third gave 2200m climbing.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #2 on: 17 October, 2011, 12:44:12 pm »
So if the unit says x ,the real total is x + 1/4 ?.  Have looked back at all my totals and it almost always reports 1/4 loss on audax rides,  also we are talking about 4 gps units here .  Would not bother if i had only 1 gps ,even carried 2 once for a check and 50m out between them.   Problem is  on the Etape , Cent Cols runs and Great Divide mtb trail  was never much out.

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #3 on: 17 October, 2011, 12:52:46 pm »
They're less inaccurate on rides with long climbs (such as the Etape, Cent Cols, etc) as the smoothing algorithm that's applied to the underlying data can reliably throw away much of the jitter. As long as it had an accurate reading at the bottom of the big hill and again near the top then it doesn't need to worry about any noise in-between.

It's not very well suited to rolling Audax rides where there are plenty of short climbs and descents that the smoothing algorithm may decide are just noise and remove.

The data that the smoothing algorithm has to work with is very jittery, here's an elevation plot of an hour of me playing 5-a-side on a flat pitch (GPS was on my wrist):-

http://www.greenbank.org/misc/elev_football.jpg
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #4 on: 17 October, 2011, 01:10:35 pm »
So does audax uk only use the highest reported climb and not an average.  I would expect some rides higher and others lower,  with the way pressure systems pass over the UK.  Large continental land masses might not suffer as much. :sick:

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #5 on: 17 October, 2011, 01:15:16 pm »
I don't know what AUK uses when they only have GPX tracklogs, you might want to ask Steve Snook (the AAA man).

The preference is a contour count, and many of the long standing calendar events have their climbing figures based on this method.

However, contour counting is time consuming and can't easily be automated. GPX files are a last resort and inconsistent, but the figures from them are sometimes used.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #6 on: 17 October, 2011, 10:21:40 pm »
Looked at audax web site. They have some black magic for the little bumps on the flats to bump up the total. 

red marley

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #7 on: 17 October, 2011, 10:44:04 pm »
It is also possible for GPS to way overestimate the total climb in comparison to contour counting method. Your experience of the GPS underestimating is quite possible, but in my experience, comparatively rare.

Greenbank has explained the problem well. Another way of looking at it is that the GPS climbing figure is very highly dependent on the frequency with which elevation is recorded. So if your device is set to record elevation, say every 10m you move along the road, it is likely to catch most of the little bumps and dips you ride over. If it is set to record every 500m on the ground, then many of those bumps will be missed, and so your total climb will appear lower.

This is a problem that affects total elevation much more than it does total distance traveled because you tend to undulate much more in an up-down direction on typical UK roads than you do in a left-right direction. In contrast, on a long alpine climb, there is comparatively little vertical undulation - it being just one long steady climb. In theory this could be captured pretty much with just two readings - one at the bottom of your climb and one at the top.

On a 200km ride through Essex and Suffolk I did last year I rode with two identical GPS receivers, but one set to a high recording frequency the other to a medium recording frequency. The difference in distance between the two units was less than 1km in 200. Yet the high recording frequency GPS recorded almost double the total climb than the other GPS.

In my view GPS climbing figures are way too dependent on their recording frequency to provide objective climbing figures unless they are recorded with a known fixed frequency. One of the reasons the contour counting method works well as a standard measure is that it effectively fixes the recording frequency (as determined by the OS cartographers).

Chris S

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #8 on: 17 October, 2011, 10:44:55 pm »
<anecdata>
Boab uses an I-Got-U GPS logger for DIYs.

It nearly always claims that a flat 200 in East Anglia is worth at least 6 AAAs, whereas my Garmin Vista HCx will have logged a measly 1800m :)
</anecdata>


Martin

Re: aaa total climb on garmin
« Reply #9 on: 17 October, 2011, 10:54:52 pm »
Looked at audax web site. They have some black magic for the little bumps on the flats to bump up the total.

the AUK bog standard black magic is fine for a fairly accurate figure of climbing on non AAA events; the more jittery the trace the more (false) climbing it produces;

the AAA Man is the definitive authority and the only reliable (and consistent with contour counts) person to validate GPS for AAA

PM us if you want your gpx checking