Author Topic: Cheating - maybe?  (Read 39310 times)

Phil W

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #75 on: 03 September, 2019, 02:08:54 pm »
It is cheating using a bar bag, who knew?

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #76 on: 03 September, 2019, 02:36:14 pm »
Yeahbut it's not a race, so there's no tactical advantage in causing other riders to retch.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #77 on: 03 September, 2019, 02:56:18 pm »
Unless it diminishes the pool of finishers and thereby inflates the prestige of your achievement.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #78 on: 03 September, 2019, 03:50:11 pm »
Mr Heine's assertion is not true if the rider chooses a saddlebag without side pockets, as I usually do. The extra drag was entirely the result of the saddlebag being wider than the rider's thighs/ hips. A pocketless Carradice is narrower than my meaty thighs and childbearing hips (I blame my mother...).

If you use one of those bike packing bags, what effect the cost of time spent digging stuff that's packed deeper in the bag due to having to haul everything else out over the ease of organization in a wide carradice style bag?

This is dynamo vs swapping AA batteries Vs heavy battery pack territory isn't it...

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #79 on: 03 September, 2019, 04:02:09 pm »
Jan Heine saying something is all the motivation you need to do the exact opposite.

rob

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #80 on: 03 September, 2019, 04:12:56 pm »
Mr Heine's assertion is not true if the rider chooses a saddlebag without side pockets, as I usually do. The extra drag was entirely the result of the saddlebag being wider than the rider's thighs/ hips. A pocketless Carradice is narrower than my meaty thighs and childbearing hips (I blame my mother...).

If you use one of those bike packing bags, what effect the cost of time spent digging stuff that's packed deeper in the bag due to having to haul everything else out over the ease of organization in a wide carradice style bag?

This is dynamo vs swapping AA batteries Vs heavy battery pack territory isn't it...

I put 3 bags within my bag :-

- clothes (also use as a pillow)
- bonk rations
- toiletries

Tools and spares were right at the bottom/front.

Stop.   Remove required internal bags and carry into control.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #81 on: 03 September, 2019, 06:39:15 pm »
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Phil W

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #82 on: 03 September, 2019, 06:50:52 pm »
Yeahbut it's not a race, so there's no tactical advantage in causing other riders to retch.

It reduces the queues for food and beds at the controls, allowing you to breeze through them or have more time to sleep. Definite advantages.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #83 on: 03 September, 2019, 06:55:30 pm »
PBP 2023: Heroic British rider is lone finisher after 9,999 entrants retire with dysentery.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

rob

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #84 on: 03 September, 2019, 07:00:44 pm »
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*

What can I say ?  I’m a convert.

Phil W

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #85 on: 03 September, 2019, 07:43:13 pm »
PBP 2023: Heroic British rider is lone finisher after 9,999 entrants retire with dysentery.

They survived on 543 jam butties, stored in their 80 litre panniers, and bar bag.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #86 on: 03 September, 2019, 08:07:01 pm »
Was it a bar bag or a solar-powered cool bag?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #87 on: 04 September, 2019, 11:10:09 am »
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.
I believe the regenerative set ups on expensive ebikes are about 50% efficient. Imagine empty battery, a downhill then matching up hill scenario with traffic lights at the bottom. If you are unlucky enough to hit red, then you still get half way up the other side without pedalling though you still have the weight of two full bidons to lug up the remaining half of the uphill.

The psychological advantage might outweigh the physical disadvantage.  Hard to quantify.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #88 on: 04 September, 2019, 11:33:49 am »
Cheating is a positive psychological boost. It's a way of saying that you're a contender. It's usually described as 'gamesmanship'.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #89 on: 04 September, 2019, 06:29:51 pm »
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*

What can I say ?  I’m a convert.
... who is slipping into the evangelist role, as seems the norm ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #90 on: 04 September, 2019, 06:34:12 pm »
Quote
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.
...<snip>


I disagree.  The club you join by finishing (or by finishing in under a certain time) is less prestigious if it is larger, and if fewer people have failed.  Cheaters artificially inflating the size of that group is something that diminishes your achievement, and about which every honest finisher can feel rightly aggrieved.

Hillary and Tenzing would not be so well remembered if ten other people had climbed Everest first, using secret hidden jetpacks.
I'm with karla on this.

To be clear, I don't worry about this very much (because hardly anyone cheats, and hardly anyone knows what PBP is); but if you asked me the simple question:
"Why does cheating matter?",
I would point them to the post above.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LMT

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #91 on: 04 September, 2019, 06:58:35 pm »
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

PBP exists partly to demonstrate the suitability of machines and equipment. So we get machines that cost as much as a car, machines that invite people to throw bricks, nostalgia-tinged throwbacks, bikes with small wheels, and luggage that makes it difficult to access the stuff you need at 2am in the middle of nowhere. It's good to know that these can finish without nefarious intervention.

The above is a moot point for two reasons.

Firstly PBP is hardly challenging, the metres climbed per distance for sure you can describe the course as undulating but by no means it is difficult and therefore cannot be used as a measure for a specific HPV. Taking a HPV around the Mille du Sud for example is a far better example of what a specific type of HPV can do.

Secondly there are so many of the same time of HPV's used in PBP as you describe above. Just because some 70 year old used an electric motor in a velo does not mean that a velo is not good for PBP, especially when others would and did complete said ride with one of the riders being first back.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #92 on: 04 September, 2019, 07:57:13 pm »
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?


LMT

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #93 on: 04 September, 2019, 08:50:10 pm »
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?



You're not getting it, HPV's don't ride themselves - people do. If someone wishes to install a motor this is a reflection on them - not on the HPV.


And PBP is demanding for velomobiles? First back on PBP would suggest otherwise - as I said it down to the rider and not the HPV.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #94 on: 04 September, 2019, 08:53:10 pm »
Who is the first real unsupported randonneur in PBP by carrying all food and liquid within. And even better to carry all "waste" to finish as it have do e.g. in North Pole adventure. Everything else is cheating?

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #95 on: 04 September, 2019, 09:10:03 pm »
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?
i would say PBP is less demanding for velomobiles than normal bikes because of the distance. No arse issues, Shermers neck, numb fingers. No aerodynamic issues in crosswinds on Milans (some rode it) although the DF that Hajo rode can be more affected by side winds. But he chose his DF rather than Milan for PBP so obviously thought it was the overall better choice.

I have no idea what shortcomings on steering mechanisms you are referring to as I think only the Evo series are known to be twitchy and I don’t think any of those rode it.

Hajo is on Strava as Jo Stein, here is his Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/2635262982
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


rob

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #96 on: 04 September, 2019, 10:13:55 pm »
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*

What can I say ?  I’m a convert.
... who is slipping into the evangelist role, as seems the norm ...

Looking back at the photos from my 6 PBPs and it goes :-

Saddlebag
Rack pack
Rack pack
Rack pack
Saddlebag
Bikepacking wedge bag

I think I was just pointing out that the bikepacking bags are not as impractical as may be being made out, provided you pack correctly.  Of course the same could be said of any type of luggage.

What has been a game changer for me has been top tube bags and fuel pods on the bars, which make eating on the move much more manageable.

rob

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #97 on: 04 September, 2019, 10:16:31 pm »

Firstly PBP is hardly challenging.....


I think the DNF rate doesn’t agree with you.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #98 on: 04 September, 2019, 10:26:15 pm »
How many PBPs have you ridden LMT? How many other 1200(+)s have you ridden to compare PBP to?

I don’t think I’ve ridden an unchallenging 1200, though such a rare beast may exist somewhere in the world. Of course, some long brevets are tougher than PBP.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

simonp

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #99 on: 04 September, 2019, 10:40:13 pm »
I would say I’ve found every PBP challenging except for 2011. I did a lot of miles in 2010 and I was likely at my strongest. Doing 80h the last two times made it much harder. This year more so due to lack of miles. If I enter 2023 I will be stopping the rowing (assuming I’m still doing that) much earlier to give it the proper focus.