Author Topic: Old Athletics world records expunged?  (Read 4938 times)

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Old Athletics world records expunged?
« on: 02 May, 2017, 10:42:52 pm »
Interesting proposal, that records before a certain date will be expunged because drug testing wasn't as good as it is now.

So there's a few Brit records that will go.

It is simpler than it looks.

Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #1 on: 02 May, 2017, 11:26:46 pm »
I don't like this sort of proposal. Different times, different standards.

When I was a yoof and did quite a bit of fishing, the British Records Fish Committee removed from the record books all kinds of fish records because they could not be sure, half a century or more later, that the records were as they said they were. To me, it undermined the credibility of the records. There were two especially well-documented pike records that went, John Garvin's 53lber (Lough Conn) and Tommy Morgan's 47lber (Loch Lomond). Even when Gareth Edwards (yes, that Gareth Edwards) broke the newly-recognised British Record with a >40lb fish from a Welsh reservoir, I couldn't get that excited about it, because I felt that the much older records of bigger fish were perfectly credible.
Quote from: Dez
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Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #2 on: 03 May, 2017, 05:52:32 am »
It's the tacit recognition of the EPO era, and a desperate attempt to restore credibility to athletics.

It's funny isn't it, how despite all the recent  'marginal gains', and improvements in sports science, training and nutrition that we are hearing about in the Team Sky doping thread, that these records have not been bettered in at least the last 12 years  ::-)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #3 on: 03 May, 2017, 08:09:35 am »
It's the tacit recognition of the EPO era, and a desperate attempt to restore credibility to athletics.

Very desperate. And hopelessly mis-aimed.
Has never ridden RAAM
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Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #4 on: 03 May, 2017, 08:54:16 am »
As Dr Hutch said on twitter, some older records set by clean athletes will probably be replaced with more recent records set by dopers.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #5 on: 03 May, 2017, 08:58:52 am »
And this is a surprise?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #6 on: 03 May, 2017, 09:00:23 am »
No, just pointless.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #7 on: 03 May, 2017, 09:03:11 am »
Pointless windowdressing is what athletics (and other world sporting bodies) do best.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #8 on: 03 May, 2017, 09:10:49 am »
Pointless windowdressing is what athletics (and other world sporting bodies) do best.

This. Although the point is also to restore 'excitement'/marketability to the sport.

As to whether the targeting is misplaced, you have to wonder why some of the old records have never Ben approached. The women's especially. Ross Tucker has an interesting analysis of the era.

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #9 on: 03 May, 2017, 09:11:37 am »
Oh, and you may replace a doper's record with another doper's record. Plus ca change.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #10 on: 03 May, 2017, 09:21:16 am »
The rate of progress in pharmacology being what it is, they'd need a rolling erasure of everything older than 12 months, generously extended to 48 for Olympic records.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #11 on: 03 May, 2017, 09:30:01 am »
No, just pointless.

Not sure. If samples are kept and retested after advances in technology allow detection of prior doping methods then maybe there is a point. What exactly it would lead to is another question, and whether the retesting would ever actually happen is another one entirely.

I suppose the issue with the current records is that there is little incentive for clean athletes to try and beat the ones that are unbeatable clean.

What this is all about is the governing bodies trying to save face. It's unfortunate that there will be collateral damage.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #12 on: 03 May, 2017, 10:28:03 am »
The rate of progress in pharmacology being what it is, they'd need a rolling erasure of everything older than 12 months, generously extended to 48 for Olympic records.

Exactly this.

It's a stupid premise because drug-testing will never be as good as it is in the future.  Erase ALL the records of anyone caught cheating.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #13 on: 03 May, 2017, 11:33:03 am »
What if samples are kept for retrospective testing? Might this have a deterrent effect?

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #14 on: 03 May, 2017, 11:45:04 am »
^^^ Lots of problems in preserving reliably and keeping the finaglers out. They've done it for TdF winners, though, since at least 1999. Dunno about the great etcetera, i.e. every other sport.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #15 on: 03 May, 2017, 11:47:10 am »
Lawyers love retests. Lots of opportunities for loopholes or, at very least, appeals.

You'd think that retesting would be a deterrent but nothing replaces standing on the top step of the podium on the day and everything that goes along with it.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #16 on: 03 May, 2017, 12:00:44 pm »
That may be so, but actually what you are looking for with anti-doping is progress, however small, rather than giving up just because anti-doping will never be perfect.

Ross Tucker is worth a read:

https://sportsscientists.com/2017/04/way-lack-will-story-anti-doping-might-save/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #17 on: 03 May, 2017, 12:26:19 pm »
I'll go along with that. A small improvement is better than no improvement - except where it becomes an excuse to stop improving, of course.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #18 on: 03 May, 2017, 12:31:12 pm »
As Tucker suggests, it is not in the interests of sporting authorities or sponsors for doping scandals to occur. The easy way round that is to make sure they don't happen...

It's interesting that none of the major scandals that afflicted cycling came about through the testing regime.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #19 on: 03 May, 2017, 12:38:04 pm »
Yes, the real answer is real laws and law enforcement, driven by political will. The French police showed the way a couple of decades ago.

A WADA with real teeth might be fairly useful but there are laws regarding restriction of employment(?) that can override sporting regulations and sanctions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #20 on: 03 May, 2017, 01:52:23 pm »
Lawyers love retests. Lots of opportunities for loopholes or, at very least, appeals.

You'd think that retesting would be a deterrent but nothing replaces standing on the top step of the podium on the day and all the money that goes along with it.

FTFY.

A few million quid makes the pain of a 2 year ban, or a deleted record, easier to take.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #21 on: 03 May, 2017, 02:41:50 pm »
Lawyers love retests. Lots of opportunities for loopholes or, at very least, appeals.

You'd think that retesting would be a deterrent but nothing replaces standing on the top step of the podium on the day and everything that goes along with it.

It's got to the point now that when I see someone getting a wee lion after a stage my first thought is "how long until he forfeits that"?
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #22 on: 03 May, 2017, 05:50:17 pm »
My twopennorth, for what it's worth (I struggle with inflation):-  Leave the records as they are, unless it can be proved that someone doped.  Sadly, you can get a good suspicion just by looking at Flo-Jo - but that's not proof.  The steady money is in appearences and most people, I would imagine, watch sport to see who wins, not whether or not they will beat a world record.  It's ages since Usain broke a world record but he's not short of viewers when he runs.  The proposal doesn't even do what I think we would all like to see done, which is restitution for those who were beaten by dopers.  Leave it alone and get on with cleaning up what we have now.

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #23 on: 03 May, 2017, 05:59:25 pm »
That still leaves the problem of world records.

If a significant number were achieved through massive doping they will never be reached by a clean athlete. If everybody knows that then the records are meaningless.

Re: Old Athletics world records expunged?
« Reply #24 on: 03 May, 2017, 06:02:26 pm »
Certainly.  It's pretty much insoluble without (possible) injustice.