No stop strategy

[Ivo]

Indeed, at PBP I hardly stop at the controls but I do stop at the various spots along the route. Faster service, better food and great fun.

[dim]

Realising that it's a somewhat personal preference issue, what food is considered good for "eating on the go"?

Poached egg on toast seems less than optimal, for example.

I'm guessing you mean food that you can eat while riding?

If so, there are 2 main types:
- food that comes in dozens of small pieces that are easily snaffled in ones or threes. Jelly babies are the canonical example. The drawback is that most of these are sugar/carb stuff. If that works for you - great. Nuts are good, but most are a bit small, and they're nearly always sold covered in salt.
- stuff you can break off a bit, or take a big bite and put the rest back. Pork pies are popular. I actually go for lumps of cheese these days [if it's pretty hard it won't go off in your bag]. *some* flapjacks work well. Malt loaf* is the reeeeal retro classic!
- some fruit fit into one-or-both categories. (bananas, dried apricot, apples)


I'm always interested in new suggestions 

I refuse to discuss anything bought from a "Sports Nutrition" vendor.

_{*If you haven't tried it, Banana flavour is great - but not everyone likes it...}

This is really good and fills you up .... the mango is not too bad either

I tried the veg ones and had a brocolli with some other ingredients .... 3 days later I was still burbing with brocolli breath

I don't like the gels .... they taste of (and have) aspartame

[Karla]

For the cyclist on the go:



gives a new meaning to head down, chewing the handlebars.

Pushing through the pain au chocolat barrier.

[Kev Sp8]

I completely bonked at 139km on the Upper Thames 200 last weekend. I inhaled a chicken wrap, Twix, yorkie bar, frijj milkshake and a large Red Bull and utterly smashed the last 70k!

[SR Steve]

On Mr. Pickwick's Cymraeg Cyrch 210km ride last Saturday, the half way control was a shop joined on to a café, so there was a clear choice between a stop and non-stop strategy. My default is non-stop, so I was prepared accordingly with a top tube bag full of energy bars and gels, but my mate wasn't carrying any food, so we stopped and had some beans on toast and tea. The café was busy as another event was using the same control, so it took a while for the food to arrive, making the total stop about 40 minutes, compared to maybe 10 minutes if we'd gone to the shop. We had averaged 21.9km/h on the outbound leg, so to pull back that 30 minutes, we would have had to average 24.5km/h on the way back. It didn't happen! However, it was nice to chat with other riders in the café and we had the bonus of seeing the huge orange moon rising over Tewkesbury, plus a few extra fireworks on the way back, so no regrets and I put my energy bars back in the box, ready for my next DIY by GPS.

I started riding my 200km DIY by GPS's non-stop as preparation for riding about 220km to the first proper control of the PBP, I continued riding them non-stop as training for the LEL even though I planned to stop at controls on that ride. I fuel myself for 200km rides by having beans on toast for breakfast and possibly a banana and an energy bar as well. During the ride I eat another 2-6 High5 or SIS energy bars according to how hilly the ride is and carry a couple of gels in case I get a hunger knock. I usually take two 750ml bottles containing High5 energy drink each with a zero tablet for some extra electrolytes. On the PBP, I carried enough energy bars for the whole ride and bounced all of the controls until Carhaix on the way back. On the LEL, I bounced a few controls when I was behind my schedule. It saves a huge number of hours on a very long ride.

[Bairn Again]

I'm surprised how many folk here ride even a 200 with no significant stop.  I thought I was pushing it with just one stop of around 15-20 mins around halfway on a 200. 

I'm doing a flat DIY 200 on Saturday and might give it a try - it appeals in making the most of the short days at this time of year.     

[whosatthewheel]

I'm surprised how many folk here ride even a 200 with no significant stop.  I thought I was pushing it with just one stop of around 15-20 mins around halfway on a 200. 

I'm doing a flat DIY 200 on Saturday and might give it a try - it appeals in making the most of the short days at this time of year.     

Different people have different needs... However, regardless of your pace, you will use roughly 1,000 KCal every 50 km, so that's 4,000 KCal for a 200 km, which is nearly 2 days worth of food. I am very skeptical when I read folks doing that on a bag of jelly babies and a banana and I suspect they maybe forget about this and that they ate along the way or they occasionally end up bonking in spectacular fashion.

[Greenbank]

When I first started I couldn't go more than 50km on an Audax without feeling starving and eating everything in sight when I got to the next control.

At the end of a 50 point season (including LEL) I'd have to remind myself at 150km that I should really eat something or I might run into trouble on the last leg.

The difference is vastly improved fitness and a well trained fat metabolism. Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame as the old saying goes. The more efficient your metabolism is the greater proportion of energy can be obtained from fat reserves and so the proportion required from glycogen stores is less. The lighter/fitter you are the lower your energy requirements will be for the ride. The lower your demands are on your glycogen stores the longer/further you can go without replenishing them.

It's not something you can just choose to do, you need to build up to it otherwise you will end up bonking in spectacular fashion.

[marylogic]

I tend not to eat a great deal on an audax although I probably ate more this time because of my strategy - I had a top tube bag full of stuff and grazed for most of the day.

I'm sure pace is a key issue though - earlier this year I did a sp*rtive with some club mates - it was a higher pace than I am used to and my usual strategy of eating didn't work at all. I'm assuming at my default pace I am mostly burning fat stores and don't need much of a top up and it's only at higher speed I rely on carbs.

I decided I would stop at the end because then I would be finished anyway. Normally I am rushing away so I can see the kids before they go to bed, but this time I had the luxury of a more relaxed stop in the arrivee, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Oh I don't know - I seem to remember it being quite fun riding with you when you were grumpy and damp.

Kind, but probably not really true 

[frankly frankie]

I completely bonked at 139km on the Upper Thames 200 last weekend. I inhaled a chicken wrap, Twix, yorkie bar, frijj milkshake and a large Red Bull and utterly smashed the last 70k!

But that could be because of any one of those items and in spite of the other four.  It'll take you a few more 200s to sort out the active ingredient. 

[rob]

I'm surprised how many folk here ride even a 200 with no significant stop.  I thought I was pushing it with just one stop of around 15-20 mins around halfway on a 200. 

I'm doing a flat DIY 200 on Saturday and might give it a try - it appeals in making the most of the short days at this time of year.     

Different people have different needs... However, regardless of your pace, you will use roughly 1,000 KCal every 50 km, so that's 4,000 KCal for a 200 km, which is nearly 2 days worth of food. I am very skeptical when I read folks doing that on a bag of jelly babies and a banana and I suspect they maybe forget about this and that they ate along the way or they occasionally end up bonking in spectacular fashion.

I think you're a bit toppy with your numbers, although these do vary by weight - I'm about 62kg.   I reckon on about 300 calories per hour and I'm usually round a 200 in about 9hrs so I'd call that under 700 calories for 50k.   You have probably 2,000 calories stored in glycogen so you don't need to consume as much as you burn as long as you replenish your stores afterwards.   On a 200 I'll have 4 bars and 4 gels (both from Zipvit) spread evenly over the event and the odd snack at the stops if I feel like something different/savoury.    I have a slightly larger breakfast than a normal day but not a feast.

[Karla]

I'm surprised how many folk here ride even a 200 with no significant stop.  I thought I was pushing it with just one stop of around 15-20 mins around halfway on a 200. 

I'm doing a flat DIY 200 on Saturday and might give it a try - it appeals in making the most of the short days at this time of year.     

Are you still sour about Zigzag? 

The guy did a 60 hour PBP and also a 480 mile 24 hour on his first attempt; I think
he's allowed to be able to get round on not much food!  At 30 kph he's just about warming up and can probably do most of it on fat metabolism.
Different people have different needs... However, regardless of your pace, you will use roughly 1,000 KCal every 50 km, so that's 4,000 KCal for a 200 km, which is nearly 2 days worth of food. I am very skeptical when I read folks doing that on a bag of jelly babies and a banana and I suspect they maybe forget about this and that they ate along the way or they occasionally end up bonking in spectacular fashion.

[smuttiesmith]

I am sure everyone is different with regards calorie consumption requirements but for info I burned through 7,500 calories on the Westmorland Spartans 300 last year. That’s 13.5 hours of riding (25.7km/h) 90 minutes at Control’s and a few natural/mechanical breaks.

That was measured with a power meter but there is still a bit of variation between people with regards efficiency so whilst not bang on it will not be far out.

Feeding wise I tend to run one bottle of energy drink and one of water. Solid food is flapjacks, beans on toast, petrol station sandwiches and crisps. I took half a dozen gels and probably consumed most of them.

Only advice I would give is to experiment and find what works best for you.

[whosatthewheel]

When I first started I couldn't go more than 50km on an Audax without feeling starving and eating everything in sight when I got to the next control.

At the end of a 50 point season (including LEL) I'd have to remind myself at 150km that I should really eat something or I might run into trouble on the last leg.

The difference is vastly improved fitness and a well trained fat metabolism. Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame as the old saying goes. The more efficient your metabolism is the greater proportion of energy can be obtained from fat reserves and so the proportion required from glycogen stores is less. The lighter/fitter you are the lower your energy requirements will be for the ride. The lower your demands are on your glycogen stores the longer/further you can go without replenishing them.

It's not something you can just choose to do, you need to build up to it otherwise you will end up bonking in spectacular fashion.

As you improve your fitness and learn to use more fat, you will also be tempted to go faster... hence using more glycogen... I've never met anybody that got fitter but kept the same speed, just being more efficient

[whosatthewheel]

I'm surprised how many folk here ride even a 200 with no significant stop.  I thought I was pushing it with just one stop of around 15-20 mins around halfway on a 200. 

I'm doing a flat DIY 200 on Saturday and might give it a try - it appeals in making the most of the short days at this time of year.     

Different people have different needs... However, regardless of your pace, you will use roughly 1,000 KCal every 50 km, so that's 4,000 KCal for a 200 km, which is nearly 2 days worth of food. I am very skeptical when I read folks doing that on a bag of jelly babies and a banana and I suspect they maybe forget about this and that they ate along the way or they occasionally end up bonking in spectacular fashion.

I think you're a bit toppy with your numbers, although these do vary by weight - I'm about 62kg.   I reckon on about 300 calories per hour and I'm usually round a 200 in about 9hrs so I'd call that under 700 calories for 50k.   You have probably 2,000 calories stored in glycogen so you don't need to consume as much as you burn as long as you replenish your stores afterwards.   On a 200 I'll have 4 bars and 4 gels (both from Zipvit) spread evenly over the event and the odd snack at the stops if I feel like something different/savoury.    I have a slightly larger breakfast than a normal day but not a feast.

I might have been toppy for someone your size... your size is not so common. Try out some jeans at TK Max and you'll see what I mean

[Greenbank]

As you improve your fitness and learn to use more fat, you will also be tempted to go faster... hence using more glycogen... I've never met anybody that got fitter but kept the same speed, just being more efficient

Sure, but if your efficiency improves and you end up going faster for the same calorie expenditure as before then you'll use fewer calories overall as you'll finish your ride sooner.

[mattc]

As you improve your fitness and learn to use more fat, you will also be tempted to go faster... hence using more glycogen... I've never met anybody that got fitter but kept the same speed, just being more efficient

Sure, but if you're efficiency improves and you end up going faster for the same calorie expenditure as before then you'll use fewer calories overall as you'll finish your ride sooner.

Also, I (for one) don't ride at the same speed (or indeed effort) on every event. It's called "pacing" - it's very useful! Most of my fitness gains come from short rides (some of them very fast). Audaxes, especially the long ones, are a challenge, and/or fun, and/or practice of my logistical/pacing/feeding skillz.

I might ride the same event with different efforts each year, and I certainly ride 600s at a different average effort to 200s.

Riding at my "ideal" pace on a 600 might feel very easy* when I am very fit - but that speed is slower than I sometimes ride when less fit but not using my pacing brain - we all make mistakes, and (hopefully) learn from them.

To summarise:
Getting fitter/faster/more_efficient allows me to ride a 600 (or 1200) at a moving average of 20kph with a lot less stress to my system, probably shorter stops, and less carb intake. OR a little faster, still with less stress, and get a little more sleep


*_{well, it feels easy for the first 150k-or-so ...}

[whosatthewheel]

As you improve your fitness and learn to use more fat, you will also be tempted to go faster... hence using more glycogen... I've never met anybody that got fitter but kept the same speed, just being more efficient

Sure, but if your efficiency improves and you end up going faster for the same calorie expenditure as before then you'll use fewer calories overall as you'll finish your ride sooner.

yes, but no... the additional power will not give you a linear return in speed... basically you will gain very little speed for a lot more power output. Say you become more efficient and for the same expenditure in glycogen you get 20% more power. That will translate roughly as the cubic root of 20 in improvement %, so somewhere in the region of 2.5-3% faster

[Greenbank]

As you improve your fitness and learn to use more fat, you will also be tempted to go faster... hence using more glycogen... I've never met anybody that got fitter but kept the same speed, just being more efficient

Sure, but if your efficiency improves and you end up going faster for the same calorie expenditure as before then you'll use fewer calories overall as you'll finish your ride sooner.

yes, but no... the additional power will not give you a linear return in speed... basically you will gain very little speed for a lot more power output. Say you become more efficient and for the same expenditure in glycogen you get 20% more power. That will translate roughly as the cubic root of 20 in improvement %, so somewhere in the region of 2.5-3% faster

I never said it was going to be a linear increase in speed, so I think we are agreeing on this.

Anyway, the gains are rarely in isolation like this. In 2009 I made huge gains to go from barely scraping round a 100 to breezing round a 200 on little food (with plenty of longer and hillier rides in between). During that year I went from 94kg to 76kg. Being thinner my CdA dropped (which, for the bulk of Audaxing, is often far more important than W/kg). My power increased. My resting HR dropped significantly. Etc, etc, etc.

My point, again, is that you can train yourself to go for long distances on little fuel but it takes hard work and miles in the legs, not just a bit of willpower. Targeted specific training will help get you there even quicker.

The mistake that many Audaxers make is they think that getting round a 200 on relatively little intake can be extended to a 300. The body's glycogen store is finite and, whilst it can carry a relatively fit person around a 200 with only a bit of topping up, it would be a rare person who can do a 300 on the same strategy. If they do eat they eat too late.

The trick for doing even longer distances and keeping stops to a minimum is to keep a steady energy intake up (whether you want RealFood(TM) or the best that sports science offers, or a mixture of the two), and to start that intake much earlier (i.e. way before the first control at 80km).

Obviously you don't want to be fully fuelled at the end of the ride (and that'd be quite hard to do anyway), it's about judging it so that you don't find that cliff edge at any point. I try to push it quite close as I like to maximise the calorie deficit from an Audax in order to help weight loss. If I ever get near to my target weight then I'll enjoy being able to make up for the deficit (with loads of beer and rubbish food!)

[De Sisti]

my CdA dropped

What's that then?

[rob]

my CdA dropped

What's that then?

Drag coefficient

[rob]

I might have been toppy for someone your size... your size is not so common. Try out some jeans at TK Max and you'll see what I mean

You say the nicest things.  My mother thinks I'm massively unhealthy at this weight.

[arabella]

Never tried it.  My bum likes to have a change from the saddle every so-often, though I find 70-80km frequent enough. Besides, the main reason for all this audaxing lark is to eat moar caik nesspa?
I have come to the conclusion that the best approach to a successful/enjoyable audax is to have 2 dinners the night before (not strictly necessary for a 100).  The first at normal dinner time (about 6:30) and the second on the run up to bed time (adjust to suit).  This may be referred to elsewhere as carbo-loading.
I did do a hilly 100 once on sweets and a bag of crisps.  I'm not even sure I had more than just the one dinner the night before.  I should repeat and see.  Oh, and the pop out after dinner 100s (finishing in the small hours) when I was points chasing were probably food-lite.

For the 600 - I've discovered sleep isn't (for me, ymmv) essential, 40 winks somewhere if/when i get the dozies will carry me through*.  This may be on account of 6 years of broken nights (children) followed by another mumble years on account of <deleted>.
*none of us in my team slept on this year's arrow.  But then we'd had a night in our own beds before starting and done the 400 and a few km by 8:00am so could switch off.  With a 600 you have an earlier start and 200 more km.

[Samuel D]

[Zigzag] did a 60 hour PBP …

And sub-50 hours in 2015, I believe.

Sure, but if your efficiency improves …

Does it to a useful degree? My understanding was that our efficiency at converting calories to work done does not actually change much, and furthermore that it’s not very different between me and Chris Froome. Is that not the case then?

[whosatthewheel]

Does it to a useful degree? My understanding was that our efficiency at converting calories to work done does not actually change much, and furthermore that it’s not very different between me and Chris Froome. Is that not the case then?

As a thermodynamic machine you can't improve. What you can improve are other parameters which mean for the same speed you can lower your heart rate and function for a greater proportion on stored fat (of which you have a gereat supply), rather than quick burning glycogen (of which you have a very small supply).

The problem I find is that whilst that happens, you will automatically ride a bit quicker, keep the heart rate the same and keep working with the same % of glycogen you had before, because it is comfotable to do so. I've never actually met anyone who got fitter but kept an identical moving speed.

If you increase the speed, you reduce the time you are out on the road... problem is the increase in speed is not linear with your increased fitness. Riders with very different levels of fitness end up with a very similar average moving speed, which might account for 15-30 minutes difference over an 8-9 hours Audax.

Moral is whichever way you look at it, the number of calories consumed and where they com from in your body tends to stay pretty much the same for a given distance. The only real way to save calories is to go quicker whilst using less power, or in other words "drafting". A well trained PRO in a flat TdF stage, staying all day in the middle of a peloton, will probably use a similar amount of calories as me walking to the supermarket and back...