Author Topic: Interesting or unusual planes?  (Read 104103 times)

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
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Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1375 on: November 27, 2017, 09:34:03 am »
Way back in 89/90, when I was a suit-wearing, precocious twat, I was outside an hotel at Manchester airport, having a lunchtime fag (some Saturday bullshit sales conference) when there was a mighty roar from the Western end of the runway.

An Air France Concorde appeared, the pilot seemed to be holding the aircraft on a very flat trajectory - most aircraft departing Manchester climb steeply - maybe he was an ex-Mirage pilot. As he passed close to the hotel car park he turned slighty South and I saw the engine were at full power with the burners on. At that moment every car alarm in the car park went off. Fabulous...  ;D
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1377 on: December 06, 2017, 12:57:01 pm »
Impressive! But why does a passenger jet need to be able to do anything like that?
Pleasure spreads out on the map and the knapsack is full of joy.

Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1378 on: December 06, 2017, 01:06:31 pm »
It doesnt. But its empty of passengers and cargo and probably fairly low on fuel as well so plenty of power to spare to show off.
Tex Johnson famously barrel rolled the original Boing 707 when he displayed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

spesh

  • Treason's Greetings!
Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1379 on: December 06, 2017, 01:22:34 pm »
Air shows are for the most part trade events, where manufacturers are showing off their wares to business and government representatives. Everybody knows that an airliner's handling at maximum take-off weight, full of passengers, luggage and fuel, isn't going to be anywhere near as spirited, but the test pilot is going to put on a show to attract the interest of potential buyers.

It's the same for the stunts that some fighter jets are put through where they appear to defy the laws of physics - it looks good, but try bleeding energy off like that in a real dogfight, and you are quite likely to end up a sitting duck.
History never repeats itself, but the Kaleidoscopic combinations of the pictured present often seem to be constructed out of the broken fragments of antique legends.
~ Mark Twain, 'The Gilded Age'

Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1380 on: December 06, 2017, 01:34:18 pm »
It's the same for the stunts that some fighter jets are put through where they appear to defy the laws of physics - it looks good, but try bleeding energy off like that in a real dogfight, and you are quite likely to end up a sitting duck.

Energy is good in a dogfight generally but I do seem to remember Harriers having a tactic of using vectored thrist to suddenly slow down causing a jet on their tale to overshoot and suddenly find itself with the Harrier getting a missile lock.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1381 on: December 06, 2017, 01:40:40 pm »
It doesnt. But its empty of passengers and cargo and probably fairly low on fuel as well so plenty of power to spare to show off.
Tex Johnson famously barrel rolled the original Boing 707 when he displayed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE

Barrel rolls if done correctly do not impart G forces so there are no airframe strength issues.  Or have I got that wrong?

spesh

  • Treason's Greetings!
Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1382 on: December 06, 2017, 02:01:46 pm »
It doesnt. But its empty of passengers and cargo and probably fairly low on fuel as well so plenty of power to spare to show off.
Tex Johnson famously barrel rolled the original Boing 707 when he displayed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE

Barrel rolls if done correctly do not impart G forces so there are no airframe strength issues.  Or have I got that wrong?

ITYM "Barrel rolls if done correctly do not impart excessive G forces beyond the operating limits..."

And said limits will be well inside the point at which the airframe and wings fail in static/dynamic load tests. Added to which, modern fly-by-wire flight control systems will have modes whereby the pilot simply cannot over-stress the aircraft (though there have been unintended consequences, usually involving Airbus products, where the aircrew have got themselves in a situation where the computers wouldn't let them take action which could have saved the aircraft, but I digress).
History never repeats itself, but the Kaleidoscopic combinations of the pictured present often seem to be constructed out of the broken fragments of antique legends.
~ Mark Twain, 'The Gilded Age'

Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1383 on: December 06, 2017, 02:14:49 pm »
It's the same for the stunts that some fighter jets are put through where they appear to defy the laws of physics - it looks good, but try bleeding energy off like that in a real dogfight, and you are quite likely to end up a sitting duck.

Energy is good in a dogfight generally but I do seem to remember Harriers having a tactic of using vectored thrist to suddenly slow down causing a jet on their tale to overshoot and suddenly find itself with the Harrier getting a missile lock.

Swordfish pilots used to say that land based fighters had problems trying to shoot them down because they couldn't fly slowly enough.
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.”
― Douglas Adams

spesh

  • Treason's Greetings!
Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1384 on: December 06, 2017, 02:42:56 pm »
It's the same for the stunts that some fighter jets are put through where they appear to defy the laws of physics - it looks good, but try bleeding energy off like that in a real dogfight, and you are quite likely to end up a sitting duck.

Energy is good in a dogfight generally but I do seem to remember Harriers having a tactic of using vectored thrist to suddenly slow down causing a jet on their tale to overshoot and suddenly find itself with the Harrier getting a missile lock.

The USMC developed that tactic for their AV-8A Harriers, but it wasn't used by our pilots in the Falklands War.

Quote from: Lt. Cmdr David Morgan DSC
"No-one used viffing in combat - it's very much a last-ditch manoeuvre. It can be useful if the guy behind hasn't seen it before and doesn't know what you're going to do. You can decelerate from 450 knots down to 150 in about three or four seconds, and that is enough to fly people out in front - however, if he sees it coming, all he has to do is go vertical and just sit around on top of you. You end up with no energy at all and he's got all the time in the world to take you out."

http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/2007/437harrier/harrier.htm
History never repeats itself, but the Kaleidoscopic combinations of the pictured present often seem to be constructed out of the broken fragments of antique legends.
~ Mark Twain, 'The Gilded Age'

Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1385 on: December 07, 2017, 12:56:58 am »

ITYM "Barrel rolls if done correctly do not impart excessive G forces beyond the operating limits..."

If the pilot does it properly the forces are generally directed towards the aircraft floor.

https://youtu.be/EmkknS203Mo
What's this bottom line for anyway?

Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1386 on: December 07, 2017, 07:46:17 am »
My lovely Chemistry teacher* explained that he far preferred a barrel roll to a regular roll because "it keeps all the nuts and bolts that the ground crew have left on the deck bouncing into my face when I was upside down".

*This was the only time anyone ever heard him mention anything about aeroplanes. He was known as Wiggy because he had a very obvious wig. He cycled to school on a Dutch style bike and one pupil managed to relieve of his wig one morning as he cycled past. Disgraceful treatment. It turned out that he had been a Spitfire pilot and wore a wig because he had crashed and burned. 
Rust never sleeps

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Interesting or unusual planes?
« Reply #1387 on: Yesterday at 02:05:06 am »
It doesnt. But its empty of passengers and cargo and probably fairly low on fuel as well so plenty of power to spare to show off.
Tex Johnson famously barrel rolled the original Boing 707 when he displayed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE

Barrel rolls if done correctly do not impart G forces so there are no airframe strength issues.  Or have I got that wrong?

I've seen an interview with Tex Johnson where he said that Boeing execs wanted to haul him over the coals for it but he countered stating the load on the airframe never exceeded 1g.

So, yes . . .
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.