Author Topic: Hydraulic shifting  (Read 5696 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Hydraulic shifting
« on: 19 August, 2015, 03:34:32 pm »
Yes, never mind hydraulic discs, you can now have hydraulic gear shifting! And disc brakes, all integrated, on your road bike.
http://road.cc/content/news/161215-rotor-reveals-first-glimpse-its-new-uno-groupset-and-its-hydraulic
Quote
Rotor reckons advantages of a fully hydraulic system are smooth activation, low maintenance and multiple shifting positions. Another significant benefit is the lack of batteries compared to current, and very popular, electronic groupsets. It's also light, claims the company, though doesn't offer any actual groupset weights. Rotor Uno wiull be offered with both rim and disc hydraulic brakes and be compatible with internal hose routed frames.

I'm not keen on the idea of having to bleed my gears, having wasted too much time with motorbike brakes in the past, but it is potentially an interesting idea.
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Kim

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #1 on: 19 August, 2015, 03:43:40 pm »
I bet electronic shifting is lighter and lower maintenance.  Batteries appear to be a non-issue given a DI2 battery seems to last months, and electronics can automagically trim the front mech and do multiple shifters more elegantly.

Maybe worthwhile on a cross bike (or mountain bike), where mud tolerance is important?

Interesting, certainly.

Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #2 on: 19 August, 2015, 03:59:57 pm »
I vaguely recall reading about someone creating a hydraulic derailleur a few years ago, but I can't remember if it was Rotor, or just an enterprising chap with access to a CNC machine. I'll have to flex my Google-Fu and see if I can find the original pictures or article...

EDIT - It wasn't Rotor, it was a company called Acros, who came up with a MTB system 4 years ago:

http://www.bikemag.com/gear/acros-a-ge-fully-hydraulic-shifters-and-derailleurs/
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Pinkbike-First-Look-Acros-AEG-11-MT-Hydraulic-Shifting.html

It appears that Acros then tried making a road-specific hydraulic shift system:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/09/03/eb13-prototype-road-bike-acros-a-ge-rda-hydraulic-shifters-derailleurs-w-formula-rr1-brakes/

Even earlier, Shimano trialled a pneumatic shift system in the downhill racing discipline:

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Shimano_Airlines_derailleur_(AR01).html
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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #3 on: 19 August, 2015, 04:03:47 pm »
I can't see an advantage with that over cable + springs (apart from lack of friction around corners). Presumably it is reliant on a return spring.
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Chris N

Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #4 on: 19 August, 2015, 04:14:21 pm »
I vaguely recall reading about someone creating a hydraulic derailleur a few years ago, but I can't remember if it was Rotor, or just an enterprising chap with access to a CNC machine. I'll have to flex my Google-Fu and see if I can find the original pictures or article...

Acros?  You found it. :thumbsup:

I can't see an advantage with that over cable + springs (apart from lack of friction around corners). Presumably it is reliant on a return spring.

It moves the indexing into the mech (like a Rohloff hub) so is probably easier to adjust and keep in adjustment, other than bleeding the system.  It could be lighter - low pressure plastic hydraulic tube and some fluid may weigh less than steel cables in steel housing.  Doubt there's much in it though.  Sharing a reservoir with the brakes makes some sense.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #5 on: 19 August, 2015, 04:19:05 pm »
I presume that hydraulic brakes make it easier to connect all brakes to one lever. Useful for trikes and tandems.

As for shifting, if it works better than cable (less stretch etc) you could then prefer it over electronic due to its 'purity'; requiring no external energy source. But then, of course, you wouldn't use bike computer or GPS let alone battery lights.
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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #6 on: 19 August, 2015, 04:19:19 pm »
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #7 on: 19 August, 2015, 04:30:44 pm »
This article from a few days ago might be worth a read:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/08/13/patent-trolling-rotor-application-shows-single-lever-one-way-mechanical-and-hydraulic-shifting/
So you could have multiple levers operating each derailleur. For instance, one on the hoods and one on aero bars, or one on bar ends and thumbies. Or under the saddle or any unusual place you fancied. I'm now imagining a Circe Helios where each of the three riders gets to control the shifting – it would make TV remote squabbles pale into insignificance!
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #8 on: 19 August, 2015, 04:40:15 pm »
Also, it moves the indexing into the gear mech itself, so you could, I suppose, use any lever. I'd hazard a guess that STIs are more vulnerable to crash damage, due to their position, than mechs, so moving that delicate stuff away would be a good move. Probably works out just as expensive, but, again, allows you to use multiple shifter (and brake) positions. And how much will it cost?
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Kim

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #9 on: 19 August, 2015, 05:13:13 pm »
I can't see an advantage with that over cable + springs (apart from lack of friction around corners). Presumably it is reliant on a return spring.

Hoses don't rust.

Ben T

Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #10 on: 19 August, 2015, 06:26:26 pm »
Can't tell from the article but does it still require the mech to have a spring or does the hydraulic force act both ways?

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #11 on: 19 August, 2015, 06:38:33 pm »
I've just read a review in Singletrack magazine of Shimano's XTR Di2 system, which by contrast makes evident some potential (relative) advantages of a hydraulic system.

Firstly, the Di2 wires are thinner than mechanical cables (so, like hoses, you need different stops, I presume). I'm guessing they're similar to dynamo wires, which I've known to break on more than one occasion (in fact, I broke the wire from dynamo to front light of my wife's favourite bike just a couple of weeks ago  :-[ while refitting a basket I'd removed at some point in the past). Presumably gear wires run much close to the frame (even inside it) so are much less vulnerable, but it's still a potential failure. Hoses are going to be tougher, surely.

Secondly, the front mech is "a hulking great lump of plastic and metal" and the battery is "about the size of a small minipump" and occupies bottle cage bosses. I guess the hydraulic system would be slimmer and obviously it wouldn't need a battery.

Thirdly, they say that under load Di2 "still doesn't shift as cleanly as SRAM's system", but presumably this is a case of small degrees.

Fourthly, there is still a lot of noise. In fact, it seems it's noisier than a mechanical system because in addition to the click at the shifter and the noise of the chain moving across sprockets (which obviously you'll get with any derailleur system), there is a noise from the motor which they describe as "a distinct, robotic 'squelch' ... as the motor within each mech does its thing." They go on to say "it's really annoying".

OTOH, Di2 can be set up with any lever controlling either mech – this must be possible with hydraulics too – and in any shift pattern. For instance, you can set it up to give a sequential shift on one lever even if you're running two chainrings. I don't see how you could do that with hydraulics.

They sum the Di2 up as "the benefits don't come anywhere near outweighing the initial outlay and replacement costs". We don't yet have any prices for the Rotor system, but I think it's telling that we're all comparing it with electronic systems rather than mechanical ones.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #12 on: 19 August, 2015, 06:55:42 pm »
Can't tell from the article but does it still require the mech to have a spring or does the hydraulic force act both ways?
From the article and patent extracts Spesh linked to, I think it's hydraulic action both ways.
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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #13 on: 20 August, 2015, 08:43:02 am »
Quote
Hoses don't rust.

But they do leak a nasty corrosive substance which leaves a white crud behind.
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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #14 on: 20 August, 2015, 08:53:27 am »
Can't tell from the article but does it still require the mech to have a spring or does the hydraulic force act both ways?
From the article and patent extracts Spesh linked to, I think it's hydraulic action both ways.
Photo of the mech clearly shows a spring.

Can't see how it could possibly be hydraulic both ways. Hydraulic pads only have atmospheric pressure to 'return' them. Nowhere near enough for gears.
Um - the indexing would still need to be at the lever. No difference from cable there.
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tiermat

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #15 on: 20 August, 2015, 08:56:51 am »
Quote
Hoses don't rust.

But they do leak a nasty corrosive substance which leaves a white crud behind.

The majority of hydraulic systems, on bikes, these days use mineral oil rather than DOT<whatever> fluid.

Much nicer to the environment, is not hydroscopic and can be reused.
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Chris N

Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #16 on: 20 August, 2015, 08:58:05 am »
Quote
Hoses don't rust.

But they do leak a nasty corrosive substance which leaves a white crud behind.

Magura, who have worked with Rotor on the hydraulic shifting, use mineral oil not DOT brake fluid.  So while the might leak (anecdata: I've not had a single leak from the hydraulic brakes on my mountain bike in the five years I've had them) it isn't corrosive.

Can't tell from the article but does it still require the mech to have a spring or does the hydraulic force act both ways?
From the article and patent extracts Spesh linked to, I think it's hydraulic action both ways.
Photo of the mech clearly shows a spring.

Can't see how it could possibly be hydraulic both ways. Hydraulic pads only have atmospheric pressure to 'return' them. Nowhere near enough for gears.
Um - the indexing would still need to be at the lever. No difference from cable there.

The ratchet/index mechanisms are clearly shown in the derailleurs in the patent application images, along with spring return mechanisms.  At the lever end a simple piston displaces the fluid to actuate the mechanism.

Torslanda

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #17 on: 20 August, 2015, 09:32:21 am »
Seriously. Is this the answer to the question nobody asked?

I can't see the point at all.

Now. If someone came along with a truly integrated, wireless electronic system based on a lightweight hub dynamo, that powered the gears, lights and with something left over to charge GPS/MP3/phones & stuff, we'd have something to get in a tiz over. As it is, this is just another "because we can" " innovation". It isn't going to revolutionise anything.*


*& probably won't work reliably until version 3.1 or something...
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Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #18 on: 20 August, 2015, 10:02:41 am »
I think there is in inevitably an element of 'because we can' but isn't it good to explore alternative ways of doing things? Some of them succeed, some fail and some actually take off. The comments on that Bike Rumor page mentioned a pneumatic system Shimano developed, that also seems to have been a 'because we can and let's see how it works' product. If those comments are to be believed, they sold it at a loss. I'm just wondering how long it will be till someone gets to actually use one of these hydraulic shifters.

I do like the idea of dynamo-powered wireless shifting and GPS etc charging though. I'd even buy a dynamo if that happened!
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #19 on: 27 August, 2015, 06:31:44 pm »
A little bit more info from road.cc: http://road.cc/content/news/162414-hands-rotor-uno-groupset

The gear hoses are sized to fit through standard cable stops, which is good. Downshift is smooth, upshift a little less so (but which way round are they using these terms?). The possibility of multiple shifting positions is as yet unfulfilled. And the price is not yet known. So not much news, really.
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citoyen

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #20 on: 29 August, 2015, 01:34:03 pm »
I'm with Torslanda - I just can't see the benefits.

Now, wireless electronic shifting on the other hand...

We got a demo model of the new SRAM eTap shifters in the office the other day. Our art director has been sitting there playing with them ever since, grinning like a kid at Christmas.
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citoyen

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #21 on: 29 August, 2015, 01:52:05 pm »
Presumably gear wires run much close to the frame (even inside it) so are much less vulnerable, but it's still a potential failure. Hoses are going to be tougher, surely.

Wires for electronic gears can be integrated into the frame - I know this is something Chris Boardman has been looking at for his bikes.

And I'm sure people used to use the frame itself as a conductor for rear dynamo lights. Obviously only applies to steel bikes though.

Quote
Secondly, the front mech is "a hulking great lump of plastic and metal" and the battery is "about the size of a small minipump" and occupies bottle cage bosses. I guess the hydraulic system would be slimmer and obviously it wouldn't need a battery.

But it does need a reservoir - you've seen the size of those SRAM Hydro-R levers, right?

Quote
Thirdly, they say that under load Di2 "still doesn't shift as cleanly as SRAM's system", but presumably this is a case of small degrees.

Hmmmmm. IME, electronic shifting is much smoother under load than mechanical shifting. And I hate SRAM mechanical shifting (but that's possibly just because I'm not so used to it).

Quote
Fourthly, there is still a lot of noise. In fact, it seems it's noisier than a mechanical system because in addition to the click at the shifter and the noise of the chain moving across sprockets (which obviously you'll get with any derailleur system), there is a noise from the motor which they describe as "a distinct, robotic 'squelch' ... as the motor within each mech does its thing." They go on to say "it's really annoying".

Pffft. They're scraping the bottom of the excuses barrel there. Yes, there's a little motorised whirr when you change gear but they're massively overplaying it - you hardly notice it most of the time.

Quote
OTOH, Di2 can be set up with any lever controlling either mech – this must be possible with hydraulics too – and in any shift pattern. For instance, you can set it up to give a sequential shift on one lever even if you're running two chainrings. I don't see how you could do that with hydraulics.

Also you can have extra satellite shifters with electronic systems. With wireless systems, you can put the switches literally anywhere you like, as long as they're within range.

Quote
They sum the Di2 up as "the benefits don't come anywhere near outweighing the initial outlay and replacement costs". We don't yet have any prices for the Rotor system, but I think it's telling that we're all comparing it with electronic systems rather than mechanical ones.

I don't think you can categorically say that. If you can afford electronic shifting and want it, then it's worth it.

Hydraulic shifting might be an improvement over mechanical shifting but if it's a similar cost to electronics, it's already redundant because of the superior versatility of electronics.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #22 on: 29 August, 2015, 03:38:44 pm »
And I'm sure people used to use the frame itself as a conductor for rear dynamo lights. Obviously only applies to steel bikes though.

Wasn't there something posted on this very forum about some optimist planning to use conductive paint for anbaric gears?
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citoyen

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #23 on: 29 August, 2015, 03:47:36 pm »
Probably. Might have been Boardman, though I don't think he posts here.
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Hydraulic shifting
« Reply #24 on: 29 August, 2015, 05:06:21 pm »
Di2 controlled with conductive paint was done at the London Bike Show a year ago. The current Di2 makes it more difficult though.
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