Removal of p@yp@l entry for BlackSheep events.

[BlackSheep]

I've had quite a few e-mails today querying event entry and payment.

It is with very great regret and a heavy heart, but p@yp@l entry has been removed from future events.

I fully realise the inconvenience  for cyclists.  And subject to payment dispute I hope to re-instate the facility very soon.

May I remind potential entrants that it is possible to still enter events on-line, and e-mail me the resultant pdf file generated from the entry.

This doesn't solve the entry payment issue, but payment could always be made on the line or by other means.


I use p@yp@l for a multitude of customers, and do not wish to compromise my non AUK customers' their preferred method of payment.

[JamesBradbury]

Sorry to hear that, Mark.

Not to worry, it's no big deal to pop stuff in the post for now.

[Arry-R]

No problem Mark and keep up the good organising.
 

[JulianP]

is this a case of the few spoiling it for the many ?

[BlackSheep]

is this a case of the few spoiling it for the many ?

Yep, another DNS at the w/e. 

[marcusjb]

I am sorry to hear you are having troubles black sheep.

Very frustrating and all over a fairly trivial sum of money and when the rider has chosen to DNS.

Drives me mad!

[Philip Whiteman]

I'm aware of the circumstances behind this decision and you have my fall support. 

Without divulging details, I suffered the same problem last year. It is my firm opinion that such miscreants should be prohibited from entering audaxes for breaching the terms and conditions as clearly stated on the entry form. The ramifications of their selfish stupidity impacts heavily upon organisers and as collateral damage, the vast majority of more honest entrants.

[Veloman]

.... I suffered the same problem last year. It is my firm opinion that such miscreants should be prohibited from entering audaxes for breaching the terms and conditions as clearly stated on the entry form. The ramifications of their selfish stupidity impacts heavily upon organisers and as collateral damage, the vast majority of more honest entrants.

I recall that debate and I fully agree with your sentiments.  Terms and conditions are clear and perhaps AUK should take action along the lines you suggest.  If the situation has arisen due to AUK members, then I am aghast.  If it was due to non-member having the 'day licence' arrangement, then a big flashing NON-REFUNDABLE banner might help on the entry process.  If they belong to a cycling club, the club should be informed of the shoddy behaviour.

Bah!

[Andrew]

So reading between the lines; someone entered, paid via Ppal, DNSed then filed a dispute with Ppal?

I just want to be clear what happened.

[Philip Whiteman]

.....  If they belong to a cycling club, the club should be informed of the shoddy behaviour.

In my case, the individual was not a member of a cycling club.  If they had been then a firmly worded correspondence would have been issued to their club secretary.  He was banned from entering any future events organised by the Beacon.  Also, AUK did write to the individual reprimanding him for his behaviour. He has not entered any more audaxes since that date.

[Hot Flatus]

Suspension of AUK membership until payment returned......easy solution no?

[Whitedown Man]

To be 100% clear I neither intend nor imply any criticism of this or any other organiser taking whatever steps they have deemed necessary in their particular circumstances.

It is nevertheless also the case that if AUK wishes to appeal to anyone under the age of 65 then online entry and payment is beyond essential. I've been wryly amused by the need to hunt out a chequebook which had otherwise been gathering dust for a decade and to remind myself of what the acronym "SAE" stood for, but I'm in my mid-50s so can remember the last century, when this was the norm. We risk becoming a joke within the cycling community if we insist on steam-power and snail-mail.

This problem needs to be fixed (by the Board, not individual organisers) swiftly and effectively.

[Lee Killestein]

Fully support your decision Mark. I'm still learning the Audax ropes and it's always been pretty clear to me - No start, no refund. Besides, the weather wasn't that bad (he says after a hot bath and a good night's sleep!).

[BlackSheep]

Suspension of AUK membership until payment returned......easy solution no?

As with Philip, this individual is not an AUK, neither was the individual that pulled the same stunt at one of my events last July.


Obviously I'm not going to comment specifically on the ongoing dispute, but I wonder what (say) "Ticketmaster" or "National Express" would do or say to the defaulter, if someone bought a ticket for a service, then a couple of hours before the performance decided to ask for a refund.

[jsabine]

This problem needs to be fixed (by the Board, not individual organisers) swiftly and effectively.

It is very firmly on our agenda.

Options to deal with it at source are limited though, and sanctions after the event - especially against non-members - aren't likely to be terribly effective. (No, we don't think we're allowed to string 'em up by the goolies.)

That said, disappointing as individuals' behaviour can be at times, I am only aware of this happening three times in the last year or so (or at any rate, three occasions when organisers have told the Board about it) - that's a tiny proportion of the entries made.

[jamesld8]

Very sorry to learn that an individual shows so little understanding of the entry rules and has caused further issues. Personally I`ve DNS a couple times this year and although it would be nice to have my entry fee refunded I fully accept the T&C and also recognise the effort of the organiser in preparing card etc.

Why someone should be so trivial over a few quid is beyond me quite frankly .

I have though now found my cheque book as also being a 60s child recall such items as cheques   

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've just had a look at the blank entry form and I can't see anything there that says fees are not refundable. You have to look at the Entry Fees section under Calendar Events to see that (and if you were looking for info about entry fees would it occur to you to look under 'Calendar Events'?). There are inevitably going to be some people taking the piss occasionally (quite infrequently from what jsabine says) but it wouldn't harm to have this stated ahead of paying, on the form or even on the event page. At least then people couldn't think they were entitled to a refund.

[BlackSheep]

I've just had a look at the blank entry form and I can't see anything there that says fees are not refundable. You have to look at the Entry Fees section under Calendar Events to see that (and if you were looking for info about entry fees would it occur to you to look under 'Calendar Events'?). There are inevitably going to be some people taking the piss occasionally (quite infrequently from what jsabine says) but it wouldn't harm to have this stated ahead of paying, on the form or even on the event page. At least then people couldn't think they were entitled to a refund.

What's stated may be.

However, on the entry form that every entrant generates, it clearly states "By signing this entry form you declare that you are insured as required. The event is run under Audax UK regulations. You should familiarise yourself with Audax UK regulations, guidance, and advice (available in AUK publications, at www.aukweb.net or on request from the organiser). "

I don't want the topic to be a public debate on the shortfalls of the AUK system's and mechanisms, they have plenty of them to keep them gamefully employed.

John is correct when mentioning that this issue (which has been reported to AUK on three occasions) is a "non member" problem. And therein is where AUK board should be locked in a room, and not released until every payment shortfall is solved. FMEA/FMA call it what you will, is not an "enjoyable" task, but it does serve a very worthwhile function.

As FF's  coda mentions. This is a complex subject that requires the use of  more than one highlighter pen.

[Ivan]

Other online payment services are available, eg Nochex, which don't handle dispute resolution, but this makes for interesting reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nochex#Controversy - might be worth considering switching?

[Clemo]

Sorry to hear of this Mark, makes my blood boil the way some people treat others, it makes me think the individual was aware of the rules and has tried to get around them which makes things worse in my opinion.


The payment process isn't to blame here its the individual.

[Cyclops]

I've just had a look at the blank entry form and I can't see anything there that says fees are not refundable. You have to look at the Entry Fees section under Calendar Events to see that (and if you were looking for info about entry fees would it occur to you to look under 'Calendar Events'?). There are inevitably going to be some people taking the piss occasionally (quite infrequently from what jsabine says) but it wouldn't harm to have this stated ahead of paying, on the form or even on the event page. At least then people couldn't think they were entitled to a refund.

Everyone who enters via PayPal is required to tick a checkbox to acknowledge a number of terms and conditions before their entry will be accepted, one of which is "Entry fees are not refundable".

[Bikeabilityman]

I've liked doing paypal entry, especially Mark's, as I could leave it until I have a good idea about the weather. Now, where did I put those stamps?

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've just had a look at the blank entry form and I can't see anything there that says fees are not refundable. You have to look at the Entry Fees section under Calendar Events to see that (and if you were looking for info about entry fees would it occur to you to look under 'Calendar Events'?). There are inevitably going to be some people taking the piss occasionally (quite infrequently from what jsabine says) but it wouldn't harm to have this stated ahead of paying, on the form or even on the event page. At least then people couldn't think they were entitled to a refund.

Everyone who enters via PayPal is required to tick a checkbox to acknowledge a number of terms and conditions before their entry will be accepted, one of which is "Entry fees are not refundable".

You're right, it does say that on the PayPal entry form, but not on the paper one. I hadn't noticed they were different.

[tonyh]

Sorry to hear of this Mark, makes my blood boil the way some people treat others, it makes me think the individual was aware of the rules and has tried to get around them which makes things worse in my opinion.

[Yes indeed. Bad behaviour of course, but personally I've done so many bad things more through ignorance than through intention, that I wonder if the individual is not as awful as may appear!]

[Cudzoziemiec]

Behold and lo! A couple of weeks ago I used a cheque to enter a (non-Blacksheep) audax. Only six left in the book and that triggered the bank's automatic systems to send me a new one, which the postman (who is also a cyclist, btw) has just delivered. Now I'll have to enter some Blacksheep events to stand any chance of using them up!