Author Topic: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)  (Read 3775 times)

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
I've just come back from a family tour (camping, cooking, kitchen sink job with two little ones), and over campsite beers discussed with the wife that I've got enough lightweight and compact camping kit now that I reckon I can tour solo with probably <10kg of kit and just small rear panniers. However, I'd like to do it on my old audax bike as my Surly LHT is simply a tank, I have a 'new audax bike' too but that's carbon so not an option - I have no interest in any 'bikepacking' solutions, just want panniers and to use as much existing kit as possible to keeps costs down.

My current rear wheel is a 32h Velocity A23 on a hope pro3 hub with ACI DB spokes. Given that I've had to true this wheel once or twice since I built it 5 or 6 years ago, I suspect it's not up to the job of any extra weight (as an aside, I later built an identical wheel with the offset drilling A23 and I perceived it to be stiffer/stronger - sold that though).  My preference is for tubeless tyres (would probably want to use sector 28's for touring), but it's led me to a few thoughts that I'd appreciate a view on:

1. I'm way out of the loop re. rims now and there seems to be a bewildering range available in addition to all the old standard clincher options - what tend to be the default CX/road/tour/'clydesdale' rim options now?

2. Am I better off just getting a whole new wheel with 36h hub to be on the safe side or am I reasonable in the assumption a stronger 32h rim re-built onto the same hub be just fine? Obviously I have a hope hub currently collecting dust that I'd like to use, but if it's sensible to just start afresh then I'm happy to do so.

3. Are there any 36h tubeless rims about or this just too close to 'proper' touring and using sensible inner tubes/tyres? ;D

I should add that I am normally around 75kg (but 'worst case scenario' 80!) so need a wheel that can handle up to 90kg weight with all the tender loving abandon that comes with touring (looking at scenery/maps instead of keeping an eye on potholes).

Apologies if this is re-hashing some old ground thread-wise but searches have thrown up information that doesn't quite fit the bill, doesn't touch on tubeless options.

Cheers,

Graham
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Sorry, I can't help re tubeless as I'm a luddite from the perspective of tubeless but I built mine and Mrs trekkers bikes using Exal rims - LX17 on the non disk bike and DC19 on the disk bike. They might do a tubeless option but the rims seem pretty bombproof.

My tuppence is that 32 holes is plenty. We don't do particularly lightweight touring so the bikes weigh in at 35kg fully loaded plus rider. I'm quite happy after crossing the Alps last year including dried up gravelly riverbeds full of wheel sized potholes. In your position I would save a little money by re-purposing the 32 hubs you already have.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

I've not long ago built a set of wheels for a chum, with a similar usage in mind.  He ended up with 32F, 36R, DB spokes (except for DS rear) and rims that weigh ~485g (and are probably the strongest available at that weight).  Because his frame was steel, (and the wheels are not going into his other bikes) we took the opportunity to reset it to 135mm, which means less wheel dish. [This also improved the chainline, incidentally.]

These wheels weigh between ~30g and ~100g (depending on what your rim choice would be otherwise) more than a set that is only just (or not even) good enough for unladen riding, yet are capable of so much more.

BTW carrying 10kg on the back of the bike is far harder on the rear wheel than simply carrying a rider that is 10kg heavier; the reason is that in the latter case the weight is 'suspended' to some extent and therefore doesn't beat the wheel to death in quite the same way. It is also far harder on the rear tyre. If you want to use some kind of flimsy rubber at the back, even with a load on, I think it would be a bad choice.

BTW my chum is not a tubeless user but even if he were I would not have recommended a tubeless rim for this application. When touring there is always a chance that you will have to make a distress purchase of a tyre and (far away from home with no sag wagon) a tubeless rim just narrows your choices and makes the job a bigger PITA than is necessary. Worse yet, it seems (presumably because of the differences in rim lip design) there are some conventional tyres (which is all you will get in most LBSs for the foreseeable future) that are prone to blowing off tubeless rims even though they are fine on a conventional rim. The last thing you want is to deal with this sort of thing when touring.

[Edit: The  rims were H plus Son archetypes. IME rims of similar strength from other makers are typically about 50-100g heavier.]

cheers

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
does it have to be a handbuilt option? if the bike is disc braked there are many good factory wheel options. wheels that are built for 29er mtbs are strong enough for loaded touring, usually tubeless compatible and fairly light too. they are also costing less than buying the parts yourself and building them from scratch.

I'd add though that 10kg isn't exactly fully loaded touring. I've carried more for a weekend camping trip on my road bike (steel) with factory Mavic Aksium wheels with 24 spokes in each.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Brucey - thanks for the input, I had the same niggling feeling about tubeless for touring, you're probably right but I wanted to 'future-proof' as much as possible so would prefer tubeless compatible even if used (more sensibly) with standard clinchers. Can't cold-set as it's fairly high-end welded tubing so will have to stick with 130mm.

zigzag - my preference is to self-build and avoid buying a new hub in the process, rim brake only for this bike unfortunately.
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
I'd add though that 10kg isn't exactly fully loaded touring. I've carried more for a weekend camping trip on my road bike (steel) with factory Mavic Aksium wheels with 24 spokes in each.

10kg is easily lost as the difference in lard between two riders.  Even with a fudge factor for it being unsuspended load.

On the other hand, I'm a big fan of sturdy wheels.

Note that anything designed for tubeless is likely to be a pain to get tyres on and off, not necessarily what you want in a touring bike.

Brucey - thanks for the input, I had the same niggling feeling about tubeless for touring, you're probably right but I wanted to 'future-proof' as much as possible so would prefer tubeless compatible even if used (more sensibly) with standard clinchers. Can't cold-set as it's fairly high-end welded tubing so will have to stick with 130mm.


I'm not convinced the entire bicycle market is going tubeless in the time it will take you to wear out a set of rims
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
the myth that tyres are harder to install/remove on tubeless rims keeps being repeated here every now and again - we should know better! :D

ime, on all four sets of tubeless wheels (and different tyre combinations) i can install the tyres without tyre levers and sometimes only need the help of one tyre lever to remove the tyre. there is one extra step when removing a tubeless tyre - to push tyre beads off the shelves into the centre. are those extra ten seconds of effort worth talking about? there are so many non-tubeless clincher rims with shallow rim bed - now those can really be difficult to deal with, even using tyre levers (i've even heard stories of people breaking them!! ;)).

there might some unlucky combination with tubeless rim/tyre combo (just like there are plenty with tubed type setups), but let's not talk about the exception as general rule :thumbsup:

tubeless technolgy is still not quite there yet on several counts, but rim/tyre installation difficulty isn't one of them.

If you are happy with 28s and don't mind a black 31mm deep rim, a 32 spoke offset drilled Kinlin 31RT (£50 from Spa) would suit I think. Strong, stiff and tubeless. All will help make sure it works well. I'd probably build with nipple washers if you have them, but they don't seem to be necessary.

Mike

Re: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)
« Reply #10 on: 10 September, 2018, 05:04:09 pm »

I'm not convinced the entire bicycle market is going tubeless in the time it will take you to wear out a set of rims

or indeed ever.

there are plenty of tubed tyre/rim combinations that are known to be a bit variable /poor but IME tubeless rims and tubeless tyres are likely to be more difficult to fit, more difficult to inflate, more difficult to remove, and are more likely not to fit well enough to be used at all.  It would be worth considering them despite these things if they conferred some kind of real benefit in this usage, but I don't think this is the case.

The real kick in the arse is the fact that some tyres (as you might want to use in the first place or have to buy in an emergency) seem likely to just blow off tubeless rims whereas they are fine on normal rims. I think this may be because tubeless rims have shorter lips, usually with smaller (or even non-existent) hook bead edges.

cheers

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)
« Reply #11 on: 10 September, 2018, 06:34:17 pm »
If you are happy with 28s and don't mind a black 31mm deep rim, a 32 spoke offset drilled Kinlin 31RT (£50 from Spa) would suit I think. Strong, stiff and tubeless. All will help make sure it works well. I'd probably build with nipple washers if you have them, but they don't seem to be necessary.

Mike
Cheers Mike, 28's are the limit and what I intend to fit anyway. Never built with washers so don't have any, any history of splits on these rims to warrant it?

Also, is the any benefit in going for anything other than dB spokes both sides?
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Re: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)
« Reply #12 on: 10 September, 2018, 08:23:19 pm »
the kinlin rim is one of the more sensible ones in that the lip on the bead seat isn't pronounced and the rim has a half-decent tyre-retaining hook as is necessary for some tubed tyres.

The asymmetric nature of the rim doesn't completely balance the tensions though; on a 130mm OLN Hope hub, the rim pushes the tension balance in your favour but not by that much; you can do about as well by converting to 135mm OLN (which is a 2.5mm offset vs a 3mm one from the rim. Even better if you do both of course.

so (for 32 x 3)

130mm OLN with a symmetric rim   = ~48% tension balance
135mm OLN with a symmetric rim  =   ~60% tension balance
130mm OLN with an asymmetric rim   =   ~63% tension balance
135mm OLN with an asymmetric rim  = ~76% tension balance.

I'd advocate using PG or 14/13G single butted spokes on the driveside rear; this 'costs' about 2g per spoke vs DB ones, so about 30g overall.

  I'd echo that building with nipple washers is a good idea, esp with a 130mm OLN build; the rim wall is just too thin for comfort (it is about as thick as plenty of rims that have a reputation for cracking).  Nipple washers should only be required on DS spokes; if needs be they can be folded slightly in order to make them small enough to pass through the rim holes; they will flatten fully once the spoke is tensioned properly.

cheers


Re: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)
« Reply #13 on: 10 September, 2018, 10:40:57 pm »
In slight contrast to Bruce, I’d build with sapim force on the drive side (2.3, 1.8, 2.0) and, probably, d-light on the non drive side. It helps a bit with the tension imbalance. I’m also quite happy to use a soft thread lock or locking nipples. The 31t rim is stiff enough that that I think it spreads spoke loads quite well and probably requires a modification to Jonathan Brandt’s wheel analysis, but one that is positive from the perspective of spoke longevity. It’s also easy enough to mount all the non tubeless types I’ve used.

I’ve not seen any issues with this rim cracking, but I like the insurance of washers on this sort of wheel. Let me know if you’d like a few.

Mike

 

Re: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)
« Reply #14 on: 11 September, 2018, 08:17:28 am »
IME tubeless rims and tubeless tyres are likely to be more difficult to fit, more difficult to inflate, more difficult to remove, and are more likely not to fit well enough to be used at all. 

Then I'd suggest your experience of tubeless (as opposed to your opinions about and prejudice against them  ;)) is limited. First time inflation can be a pain on 28's (25's have always been fine for me), but CO2 solves that. Like ZigZag I've never had to use levers to install a tubeless tyre, tho I do use two to remove them - much like tubed tyres I've used unless they've been very supple and fragile racing tyres.  And if you use Marathons for touring, you'll have to make more effort that that! And ultimately of course tubeless can be tubed in extremis. And carrying a spare tyre (assuming it's folding) isn't really much effort, not that I ever did or needed to. Just lucky I guess.

Where I agree it can be a bit of a pain is in initial sealing to the rim, but not always.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)
« Reply #15 on: 11 September, 2018, 10:22:04 am »
Thanks for the input everyone!
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Re: Wheelbuilding gurus - rim advice (36h vs 32h, tubeless, light touring/audax)
« Reply #16 on: 11 September, 2018, 01:03:18 pm »
IME tubeless rims and tubeless tyres are likely to be more difficult to fit, more difficult to inflate, more difficult to remove, and are more likely not to fit well enough to be used at all. 

Then I'd suggest your experience of tubeless (as opposed to your opinions about and prejudice against them  ;)) is limited. First time inflation can be a pain on 28's (25's have always been fine for me), but CO2 solves that. Like ZigZag I've never had to use levers to install a tubeless tyre, tho I do use two to remove them - much like tubed tyres I've used unless they've been very supple and fragile racing tyres.  And if you use Marathons for touring, you'll have to make more effort that that! And ultimately of course tubeless can be tubed in extremis. And carrying a spare tyre (assuming it's folding) isn't really much effort, not that I ever did or needed to. Just lucky I guess.

Where I agree it can be a bit of a pain is in initial sealing to the rim, but not always.

I've not tried every combination on the market (any more than I have with tubed tyres.... ::-)), but I've seen enough to draw the conclusion I mentioned above. Any previously unknown combination of tyre and rim is a bit of a lottery, but with tubeless tyres/rims it is a bit more of a lottery than most, with all tyres tending to be on the tight side with tubeless rims, but not necessarily secure despite this.   
Not all tubeless rims are created equal by any means and some (esp those without hook beads) may not allow you the (useful when touring) fallback of  safely running some tubed tyres on them without risk of them blowing off the rim.  One would expect to be able to run a good quality tubed tyre from a leading manufacturer on a similarly specified "tubeless ready" rim but sadly this doesn't always work.

Note that hook beads are not a reliable method of retaining tyres with no tubes, since whether the tyre is usefully pushed into the hook or not depends on exactly where the seal is made. Accordingly tubeless tyres are made with thicker beads (that are less stretchy) and/or are made a much tighter fit on the rim. Of necessity they won't come on and off the rim so easily. Between the extra rubber in the side wall required to make them remotely airtight and the extra weight of the stiffer bead, there may be at least half an inner tube's worth of extra weight there, and once the tyre has some sealant in it is liable to roll more slowly than the tubed equivalent. 

The way tubeless tyres fit is also different in another way; the rim well is always shallow and the rim lips are nearly always less tall (typically by 1-2mm) than for a tubed rim. This looks great on the drawing board but it doesn't always stack up in practice; to make this work (with any tyre) requires greater precision regarding dimensions of both tyres and rims. IME no manufacturer (especially not many of those pushing tubeless tyres) has in the past shown themselves capable of making consistently sized tyres, anywhere near good enough to fit consistently (and safely) on such rims.

In a curious parallel forty-odd years ago a leading tyre manufacturer (Michelin) launched a new car tyre/rim design (TRX)  with smaller rim lips, a shallower rim well, a bigger lip in the rim well (which ought to retain a deflated tyre better) and a tighter tolerance on all the dimensions.  Of course it was never going to be compatible with standard tyres (they might have just blown off the rim, and certainly wouldn't have been secure in the event of deflation) so, (perhaps to their credit), they made the rim dimensions entirely incompatible with standard rims.  The result was that the TRX tyre was never popular with consumers (tyres were expensive and there was very limited choice), the 'benefits' could anyway be obtained by simply making extant tyres slightly better, tyre fitters hated them (because they were usually a PITA to fit) and the available tyres were not that good.   Michelin quietly dropped the idea after about ten years, and whilst you can still buy TRX tyres for some cars, they are prohibitively expensive; between double and about eight times more than  conventional tyres. Most folk have had to buy new wheels for their cars.

 Michelin have been notable because they (and one or two other manufacturers) have not embraced tubeless bicycle tyres. Maybe it is once bitten twice shy, maybe it is because they know that what we are being sold is a pup; the idea that 'there is no harm in having tubeless compatible rims' is just wrong, and that it cannot be expected to work like that.

cheers

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
In slight contrast to Bruce, I’d build with sapim force on the drive side (2.3, 1.8, 2.0) and, probably, d-light on the non drive side. It helps a bit with the tension imbalance. I’m also quite happy to use a soft thread lock or locking nipples. The 31t rim is stiff enough that that I think it spreads spoke loads quite well and probably requires a modification to Jonathan Brandt’s wheel analysis, but one that is positive from the perspective of spoke longevity. It’s also easy enough to mount all the non tubeless types I’ve used.

I’ve not seen any issues with this rim cracking, but I like the insurance of washers on this sort of wheel. Let me know if you’d like a few.

Mike

 


Just by way of update, wheel built up really well and more importantly managed to withstand all the abuse of my 8 day tour covering 700 odd hilly miles without any issues - this in spite of the usual 'over-packing' resulting in luggage being around 15kg instead of 10. Many thanks, Mike. 

I think the only cock up was dropping a nipple washer inside the rim without realising (first time building with them), which didn't start moving around inside until after rim tape and tyre installation, I swear it was louder than when I've done the same with a nipple 5 times the size and weight!
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Kinlin xr22rt rim would do the job and sapim force spikes all round. There is no advanta6 in differential spoking. There are good reasons for this
 The reasons given for differential spoking sound good and plausible but are flawed.

With a 3mm offset rim and most disc brake hubs you get 75% tension balance. The deeper kinlin rims in 32h drilling are a poor choice. Even with concave washers bends at the nipple are unavoidable this can lead to spoke failure.

Tubeess tyre seating with no pressure is maintained with a headlock. This is a feature that simply stops the bead moving away from the bead hook. Kinlin rims have this. Hutchinson, schwalbe, continental and IRC tubeless tyres inflate seat and seal and maintain the seal with no air pressure with ease. Contrary to one if the posts above it's very possible.

Tue standard was established  in 2006 by shimano and Hutchinson. Only a handful of rims manufacturers and a few tyre manufacturers follow the standard. Everybody else is ducking around with tubeless and that's the concepts problem.

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.

I'm not convinced the entire bicycle market is going tubeless in the time it will take you to wear out a set of rims

or indeed ever.

there are plenty of tubed tyre/rim combinations that are known to be a bit variable /poor but IME tubeless rims and tubeless tyres are likely to be more difficult to fit, more difficult to inflate, more difficult to remove, and are more likely not to fit well enough to be used at all.  It would be worth considering them despite these things if they conferred some kind of real benefit in this usage, but I don't think this is the case.

The real kick in the arse is the fact that some tyres (as you might want to use in the first place or have to buy in an emergency) seem likely to just blow off tubeless rims whereas they are fine on normal rims. I think this may be because tubeless rims have shorter lips, usually with smaller (or even non-existent) hook bead edges.

cheers

Absolute codswallop I'm afraid.

I've had a wide selection of tubed and tubeless, slick, touring and gravel, 25 to 38mm tyres, made by Continental, Schwalbe, IRC and Panaracer on my tubeless rims with no problems. Doubtless many other tyres are fine.

If your mythical bike shop doesn't stock one of those, what does it stock?

 They all went on without levers, the tubeless ones inflated by track pump, CO2 for Marathon Supreme tubeless, they were the trickiest, but not very.

Your negativity is imaginary.

well you have not seen what I've seen.  Maybe you don't understand why it is that there is a new standard for tubeless rims and tyres in the making.


Phil W

'I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

and I meant to add;

 also maybe you don't understand why, even with the new standard in force, it still won't suit everyone to use tubeless rims.  There are plenty of tubeless rims which are made without hooks on the beads. These have much lower pressure ratings than hook-beaded rims and God forbid that you should encounter a slack fit or there be any lubricant present; the tyre will blow off every time.

Manufacturers vary in their pressure ratings for hookless rims and some folk have problems even within the recommended range of pressures.  This chart

https://dycteyr72g97f.cloudfront.net/uploads/W0P1800AIDXSA06204/MAN_WXD10000000866S_WEB_ZZ_001.pdf

Shows DT's recommendations.  So you are basically sh*t out of luck if you want to run more than 73psi in your tyres on hookless rims; 'tis not allowed.  And anyway I think it is cobblers; I have seen a brand new tyre from a big manufacturer that repeatedly blew off a DT rim. Was it the tyre or the rim? you ask;  well lots of other tyres (from different makers) blew off the same rim and the tyre in question fitted and worked as intended on a standard (hook beaded) rim.   AFAICT the rim is dimensionally within the specification, so it is a bit of a mystery; bottom line is that it doesn't work.


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless

Just to throw in a data point. I'm 95kg of unfit fat dyke. I run a heavy steel bike packing bike, with bike packing luggage, and a 1.4kg lock. I'm using H+Son Archetype rims, 32h, with conti gp5k 32mm tyres. They seem to be holding up very nicely so far. Even with some of Belgium's finest roads over the weekend.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

and I meant to add;

 also maybe you don't understand why, even with the new standard in force, it still won't suit everyone to use tubeless rims.  There are plenty of tubeless rims which are made without hooks on the beads. These have much lower pressure ratings than hook-beaded rims and God forbid that you should encounter a slack fit or there be any lubricant present; the tyre will blow off every time.

Manufacturers vary in their pressure ratings for hookless rims and some folk have problems even within the recommended range of pressures.  This chart

https://dycteyr72g97f.cloudfront.net/uploads/W0P1800AIDXSA06204/MAN_WXD10000000866S_WEB_ZZ_001.pdf

Shows DT's recommendations.  So you are basically sh*t out of luck if you want to run more than 73psi in your tyres on hookless rims; 'tis not allowed.  And anyway I think it is cobblers; I have seen a brand new tyre from a big manufacturer that repeatedly blew off a DT rim. Was it the tyre or the rim? you ask;  well lots of other tyres (from different makers) blew off the same rim and the tyre in question fitted and worked as intended on a standard (hook beaded) rim.   AFAICT the rim is dimensionally within the specification, so it is a bit of a mystery; bottom line is that it doesn't work.

I'd agree that hookless rims are a bad idea.... but why would the fact of being designed for tubeless use mean that a rim lacked a hook?