Author Topic: Snaking ...  (Read 1701 times)

Snaking ...
« on: 20 September, 2015, 07:09:13 pm »
Hi guys!

I am riding a really nice Carrera all carbon road bike. I have had it for 9 months and it is a beautiful ride. Except for 2 occasions (the last time was this afternoon) where the bike has started snaking uncontrollably on a descent at high speed. I managed it better this time than I did last time and both instances were pulled back from a crash by some quick and controlled braking.
I have checked and tightened the head set screw.

New here and I am originally from India ... so I suppose I should expect some charming responses  (snake charming  ;);D ;D ;D

Any tips on correcting anything - mechanically or technique wise ?

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #1 on: 20 September, 2015, 07:12:16 pm »
This is called shimmy. If it happens again grip the top bar between your knees when applying the brakes. This does not mean your frame is out of alignment or anything like that.

Example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xODNzyUbIHo
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

Basil

  • Um....err......oh bugger!
  • Help me!
Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #2 on: 20 September, 2015, 07:15:43 pm »
Hi Raj.  Type shimmy into the search box.  There are a few yacf threads already.
Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #3 on: 20 September, 2015, 07:34:50 pm »
Raj,

Did you loosen off the handlebar stem bolts where the stem attaches to the steerer before tightening down the headset cap bolt?   If not then you will have made no difference unless your bars are loose as well.   

We had an eventful ride to Cannon's Ashby today.   Two fairie visitations and one broken spoke. 

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #4 on: 21 September, 2015, 07:11:41 am »
Thanks ... Will try the top bar grip and also check out the stem bolts again which I am sure are all tight.

P.Bear   - I must confess I defected to another group on Sunday  ;D  I joined 1/2 a dozen riders from the South Leicester CTC and did a 50 miler starting from well .... South Leicestershire ... towards Medbourne, Foxton Locks etc and back through a nice circuit taking in 2 x cafes  :)

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #5 on: 21 September, 2015, 07:16:02 am »
Snaking seems like a good word for it - especially if it happens down Snake Pass - although it's not caused by snake bites.  My problem was eventually traced to a dud hub but it seems it has numerous causes. 
Move Faster and Bake Things

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #6 on: 21 September, 2015, 07:24:00 am »
S'ok Raj.  We're all cyclists. 

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #7 on: 22 September, 2015, 07:17:07 am »
"Snaking" is where the rear ( drive ) wheel spins and 'torque steer' forces the rear wheel to rotate around the head tube. Precession. The rider needs to adjust the steering and bodyweight to keep the bike pointing in the correct direction. After a while, the rear wheel is leaving a 'sin wave' strip of rubber on the road.


Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #8 on: 22 September, 2015, 08:03:59 am »
After a while, the rear wheel is leaving a 'sin wave' strip of rubber on the road.

Only if you are very BAD

 :demon:

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #9 on: 22 September, 2015, 09:28:43 am »
After a quarter of a mile or so, the sin wave deminishes into a straight line and the tyre starts gripping. Then you can get on with completing the ten mile time trial.

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #10 on: 23 September, 2015, 07:03:21 pm »
Ninigishzidda !!! You are absolutely correct  8) 8) 8)

I researched your line of thought and found this ....

"Imagine the object to be a spinning bicycle wheel, held at both ends of its axle in the hands of a subject. The wheel is spinning clock-wise as seen from a viewer to the subject’s right. Clock positions on the wheel are given relative to this viewer. As the wheel spins, the molecules comprising it are travelling vertically downward the instant they pass the 3-o'clock position, horizontally to the left the instant they pass 6 o'clock, vertically upward at 9 o'clock, and horizontally to the right at 12 o'clock. Between these positions, each molecule travels components of these directions, which should be kept in mind as you read ahead. The viewer then applies a force to the wheel at the 3-o'clock position in a direction away from himself. The molecules at the 3-o'clock position are not being forced to change their direction when this happens; they still travel vertically downward. Actually, the force attempts to displace them some amount horizontally at that moment, but the ostensible component of that motion, attributed to the horizontal force, never occurs, as it would if the wheel was not spinning. Therefore, neither the horizontal nor downward components of travel are affected by the horizontally-applied force. The horizontal component started at zero and remains at zero, and the downward component is at its maximum and remains at maximum. The same holds true for the molecules located at 9 o'clock; they still travel vertically upward and not at all horizontally, thus are unaffected by the force that was applied. However, molecules at 6 and 12 o'clock are being forced to change direction. At 6 o'clock, molecules are forced to veer toward the viewer. At the same time, molecules that are passing 12 o'clock are being forced to veer away from the viewer. The inertia of those molecules resists this change in direction. The result is that they apply an equal and opposite reactive force in response. At 6 o'clock, molecules exert a push directly away from the viewer, while molecules at 12 o'clock push directly toward the viewer. This all happens instantaneously as the force is applied at 3 o'clock. Since no physical force was actually applied at 6 or 12 o’clock, there is nothing to oppose these reactive forces; therefore, the reaction is free to take place. This makes the wheel as a whole tilt toward the viewer. Thus, when the force was applied at 3 o'clock, the wheel behaved as if that force was applied at 6 o'clock, which is 90 degrees ahead in the direction of rotation. This principle is demonstrated in helicopters. Helicopter controls are rigged so that inputs to them are transmitted to the rotor blades at points 90 degrees prior to the point where the change in aircraft attitude is desired.

Precession causes another phenomenon for spinning objects such as the bicycle wheel in this scenario. If the subject holding the wheel removes one hand from the end of the axle, the wheel will not topple over, but will remain upright, supported at just the other end of its axle. However, it will immediately take on an additional motion; it will begin to rotate about a vertical axis, pivoting at the point of support as it continues spinning. If the wheel was not spinning, it would topple over and fall when one hand is removed. The ostensible action of the wheel beginning to topple over is equivalent to applying a force to it at 12 o'clock in the direction of the unsupported side (or a force at 6 o’clock toward the supported side). When the wheel is spinning, the sudden lack of support at one end of its axle is equivalent to this same force. So, instead of toppling over, the wheel behaves as if a continuous force is being applied to it at 3 or 9 o’clock, depending on the direction of spin and which hand was removed. This causes the wheel to begin pivoting at the point of support while remaining upright. It should be noted that although it pivots at the point of support, it does so only because of the fact that it is supported there; the actual axis of precessional rotation is located vertically through the wheel, passing through its center of mass. Also, this explanation does not account for the effect of variation in the speed of the spinning object; it only describes how the spin axis behaves due to precession. More correctly, the object behaves according to the balance of all forces based on the magnitude of the applied force, mass and rotational speed of the object.
"
It was somewhere between 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock when the snakling happened so it all adds up !!!  :thumbsup: ;D ;D

On a more serious note, reading about precession has made me realise that the issue is probably in the rear wheel and not the front. When I bought the bike second hand, the honest seller warned me that the rear wheel 'needed truing' as he put it. I later realised that the frame has a fault in it which causes the rear wheel to pull to the left (when viewed from the rear) if it is merely tightened in the rear drop outs. I have had to hand make a tiny wedge out of aluminium that I insert between the hub and the drop out to kick the rear wheel closer to the centre line. However, I know that while this has stopped the tyre from rubbing the chain stay, the wheel is still not 100% where it should be.

At speed (I was nudging 40 mph down hill), this is probably creating a wobble that results in the frightening experience I had.

Any advice on how to better centre my rear wheel graciously accepted.

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #11 on: 28 September, 2015, 11:05:40 pm »
I had this issue on my bike, really quite severely.  In trying to rid it of the dreaded speed wobble I have replaced the headset (cheap neco for decent FSA), forks (chinese carbon for columbus carbon), stem and handlebars (was 26, now oversize 31.8 ).  Each improved the situation to a degree until now I would say that the combination of changes have made it no longer an issue. 

Changing the forks made the greatest change but I am convinced that all contributed to a degree in curing the issue.

The difference in the confidence and speed I can now descend is quite staggering.

On the plus side it was an excellent lesson in how to manage and control the onset of speed wobble (damping top tube with leg is most effective).
Up the hills and round the bends

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #12 on: 29 September, 2015, 07:20:37 am »
"Snaking" is where the rear ( drive ) wheel spins and 'torque steer' forces the rear wheel to rotate around the head tube. Precession. The rider needs to adjust the steering and bodyweight to keep the bike pointing in the correct direction. After a while, the rear wheel is leaving a 'sin wave' strip of rubber on the road.

Alternatively it is [deleted - NSFW]. 


Any advice on how to better centre my rear wheel graciously accepted.

Is the frame steel?  It may have been put 'out of true'.  I would recommend asking a good bike shop to check it for safety's sake and having bought 2nd hand bikes myself..
Move Faster and Bake Things

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #13 on: 06 October, 2015, 10:18:56 pm »
The frame is all carbon. I am getting some help on centring the wheel on the hub this weekend  ;)
Will report back on progress.

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #14 on: 06 October, 2015, 10:21:27 pm »
The rear wheel must NOT be centred on the hub. It should be trued so that rim is centred in the frame
<i>Marmite slave</i>

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #15 on: 06 October, 2015, 10:23:23 pm »
Strictly speaking, the rim is centred between the hub's axle locknuts. It is not centred between the hub's flanges.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #16 on: 07 October, 2015, 07:22:26 am »
Strictly speaking, the rim is centred between the hub's axle locknuts. It is not centred between the hub's flanges.

This.

When the rim is centred between the locknuts, and its still can't be made centre in the frame, throw the frame away.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #17 on: 07 October, 2015, 07:52:48 am »
As with everything to do with bikes, there are a tiny number of exceptions that prove the rule. Old Manitou MTB frames, some old Orbit frames, some recumbent trikes (from Greenspeed or ICE?) and I think some fat bikes have asymmetric rear triangles and matching wheels centred on the flanges. Most people will never have to deal with any of these exceptions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #18 on: 07 October, 2015, 08:04:38 am »
Raj has a Carrera Virago.   I am pretty certain that it doesn't have an asymmetric rear end.

If he doesn't get sorted by next week I'll take my dishing tool and spokey round and offer my services.   :D

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #19 on: 07 October, 2015, 08:19:19 am »
Usually the biggest cause of shimmy is the rider's 'death-grip' on the bars rather than any bike related issues.  IME, many new to drop bars tense-up when descending on drop bar bikes because it feels like you are descending head first on very skinny tyres and a responsive frame .... a bit scary compared to a hybrid/mtb.  Sitting further back on the seat and relaxing - especially the death-grip on the bars tends to solve the issue.  A bike that shimmied suddenly doesn't.
Now a couple exceptions IMO, some very flexy frames* and overladen touring bikes with all the weight on the rear can also get similarly out of shape and at high speed relaxing becomes very difficult!  Scrubbing speed seems to then be the best option.

*My '82 Holdsworth get's very lairy over 40mph on a less than smooth road (Chain hill into Wantage for example) and rather than shimmy just feels a bit out of control.  The Rourke feels like it's on rails.

Some interesting stuff:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/shimmy.html

Re: Snaking ...
« Reply #20 on: 07 October, 2015, 08:49:45 am »
My take on it is this, based on my own experience:

Shimmy is the oscillation of the frame & forks around the head tube.

The causation of shimmy can be complex and involve a number of factors, to name those that I have directly experienced:
  • A frame with low torsional stiffness
  • Flexy forks
  • Bars and stem with a lack of stiffness
  • Poor quality/worn out headset
  • Riding fast with just one hand on the bars
  • Side winds of a certain strength

I'm sure there are many more, some which will be peculiar to a certain machine.

I should imagine that it is rarely one factor at play to cause the shimmy, but a number of factors, as the bike is effectively a system into which all of the parts contribute. 

The solution is unlikely to be obvious and will most likely involve incremental changes to parts and setup that may or may help to lessen the incidence of shimmy.

Once shimmy has started it can be stopped by resting a thigh on the top tube.


Up the hills and round the bends