Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: mrcharly-YHT on 26 April, 2016, 01:05:22 pm

Title: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 26 April, 2016, 01:05:22 pm
Quote
When I won the world road race championships, Sky sponsored a men-only team. I never received a penny, but I still had to wear the logo. Was Sky aware of the inequality of the distribution of its funds to the sport? I am confident that it was not.

This is so effing ridiculous
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/nicole-cooke-cycling-sexism-jess-varnish-shane-sutton (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/nicole-cooke-cycling-sexism-jess-varnish-shane-sutton)
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Dibdib on 26 April, 2016, 01:52:13 pm
Good on her for speaking out, and good on Varnish too.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: IJL on 26 April, 2016, 02:36:09 pm
Nicole's autobiography is a great read and a real eye opener on how BC and Sutton treated. 
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: jane on 26 April, 2016, 04:17:31 pm
VP has also commented in support of Jess Varnish. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/04/25/jess-varnish-is-right--there-is-sexism-at-the-top-of-british-cyc/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/04/25/jess-varnish-is-right--there-is-sexism-at-the-top-of-british-cyc/)
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mattc on 26 April, 2016, 04:33:06 pm
There's no excuse for this in the Olympics and on the track, races with national teams (not commercial).

Does it happen in sports like track-n-field? I suspect not; Kelly Holmes et al seemed to get as much support as male medal prospects.

I wonder if the hand (& money) of Sky is the major corrupting factor here? Do we want sponsorship to play such a large role in Olympic sports?

Very sad ...
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 26 April, 2016, 04:47:06 pm
Cookie was very clear that she did not blame Sky.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: David Martin on 26 April, 2016, 09:55:18 pm
And http://singletrackworld.com/columns/2016/04/pro-xc-racer-jenny-copnall-speaks-out-at-british-cycling/ another one.

Nil combustibus pro fumo.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: jsabine on 26 April, 2016, 10:41:25 pm
Quote
When I won the world road race championships, Sky sponsored a men-only team. I never received a penny, but I still had to wear the logo. Was Sky aware of the inequality of the distribution of its funds to the sport? I am confident that it was not.

This is so effing ridiculous
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/nicole-cooke-cycling-sexism-jess-varnish-shane-sutton (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/nicole-cooke-cycling-sexism-jess-varnish-shane-sutton)

The 'response' from BC is almost laughable in the way it acknowledges a couple of her asides, yet entirely fails to address the substantive points.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: simonp on 27 April, 2016, 03:06:22 am
Sutton has now apparently been suspended after he was reported to have referred to Paralympic cyclists as 'wobblies' and 'gimps'.

Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 27 April, 2016, 07:53:14 am
He's an Australian and of the generation that treated me like shit when I was a disabled kid so I'm really not surprised.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Andrew on 27 April, 2016, 08:26:40 am
Nicole's autobiography is a great read and a real eye opener on how BC and Sutton treated.

Indeed. I have a great respect for Cooke, she speaks her mind for sure but is rarely wide of the mark. She tells it like it is.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: hatler on 27 April, 2016, 08:31:17 am
Sutton has now apparently been suspended after he was reported to have referred to Paralympic cyclists as 'wobblies' and 'gimps'.
It's reported (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/36147120) that the phrase used was "****ing gimps".

Quote
"The attitude towards them was abysmal," said Kenny. "We were tolerated at best. The term used to refer to us was generally 'gimps', with another word in front of that.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: LEE on 27 April, 2016, 08:55:20 am
Sounds like another case of someone becoming "untouchable" because of their (successful) high-profile.

I'm very interested to hear Dave Brailsford's take on this. I always saw Sutton as his "henchman".
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: simonp on 27 April, 2016, 03:40:30 pm
Well. BBC and Sky are reporting that Sutton has resigned.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Si S on 27 April, 2016, 03:41:01 pm
He's resigned, pushed I suspect. BC in full damage limitation mode now, I guess the line will be one rogue individual etc...

I'm very interested to hear Dave Brailsford's take on this.

I'd be very surprised to hear anything from DB on this.

Cross post with simonp
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: hatler on 27 April, 2016, 03:56:22 pm
Blimey. Given the proximity of the Olympics that's probably for the best. Amazing how quickly things can get derailed.

"Events dear boy, events."
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Jaded on 27 April, 2016, 04:06:19 pm
Getting the excuses in early for fewer medals...
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Jasmine on 27 April, 2016, 04:06:27 pm
I'd also be surprised to hear anything from DB about it.  Given that in some cycling circles he is practically sainted, it will wash away from him if he keeps his head down.

You only have to look at the amateur scene to see that BC don't see women's and men's racing on an equal footing (and has always been so).  One example is that there is a national series for junior men (16 to 18 years old), but no equivalent for women, despite offers from organisers to provide for one.

Most women who race will be able to tell you a case of overt sexist toward them, and of the more everyday, unnoticed sexism in racing.  At amateur level, a fraction of events will include a women's race, resulting in racing female riders travelling significantly greater distances to compete, usually in E/1/2/3/4 races, where the men's equivalent is 2/3/4.  This means that female riders starting out (cat 4) often have to ride in fields with riders who are leagues ahead of them, much more so than male riders at the same stage.  This doesn't encourage new women to give racing a go.

I have been to an E/1/2/3/4 race where the field was massively diverse in experience - the commissaire's comment on this could have been 'there is potentially a wide range of ability in the field, here is what will happen when the field splits'. His actual comment was 'some of you won't have done much training because you need to spend a lot of time doing housework'. I don't believe that it is isolated individuals at all.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 27 April, 2016, 04:12:30 pm
Chris Hoy's description of Shane

Quote
He said Sutton, who also mentored Sir Bradley Wiggins, is "so intense that there are times that the only thing you can do is fall out with him".

Hoy added: "Half the time you want to throttle the guy and the other half you are trying to get into his good books."

That sounds like Sutton is an utter sh!t to me. That's the description of Sutton from one of the most incredibly successful members of the team in olympic history. Imagine what Sutton was like to someone who was an only ok member of the team, or someone who was struggling psychologically.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Veloman on 27 April, 2016, 04:13:55 pm
Statements from BC:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20160427-about-bc-news-Statement-from-British-Cycling-0 (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20160427-about-bc-news-Statement-from-British-Cycling-0)
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: IJL on 27 April, 2016, 04:17:36 pm
And http://singletrackworld.com/columns/2016/04/pro-xc-racer-jenny-copnall-speaks-out-at-british-cycling/ another one.

Nil combustibus pro fumo.

little of this is new it all sounds very similar to what Nicole Cooke describes in her autobiography, BC were unwilling to support someone who was not one of their riders and on the "plan" at the same time the focus on track was so complete that they had little interest in riders who could win in other events especially if they were women.  IIRC Cooke wasn't just not supported she was pretty much sabotaged and obstructed

In the past Nicole's comment received little attention outside cycling, is seems this time thinks may change but I doubt the problem begins and ends with Sutton.

Does anyone know what she did after retirement? 
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: spesh on 27 April, 2016, 04:23:02 pm
Getting the excuses in early for fewer medals...

Given that the last two Olympiads have primed us to expect a fat haul, anything short of podiums in every event entered will result in a shellacking from the media.

BC were probably hoping to gloss over the Varnish situation, or that under the modern news cycle it wood dye a natural death, but there's no way that a lack of polish towards the Para-Olympians can be swept under the matt. It's going to leave a nasty stain.

So now Sutton's going to be satin watching it on TV along with rest of us.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Peter on 27 April, 2016, 04:28:00 pm
spesh, I think we should leave matt to finish that!
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Si S on 27 April, 2016, 04:31:03 pm
No need to eggshell them on Peter
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: simonp on 27 April, 2016, 04:33:12 pm
We need the unvarnished truth.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: spesh on 27 April, 2016, 04:36:38 pm
It's a forum tradition that the right thread will never unknowingly lacquer pun or three.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Jaded on 27 April, 2016, 04:39:28 pm
You need your coat.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: hatler on 27 April, 2016, 04:46:45 pm
An undercoat as well. It's cold out there.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: David Martin on 27 April, 2016, 04:57:44 pm
I'd also be surprised to hear anything from DB about it.  Given that in some cycling circles he is practically sainted, it will wash away from him if he keeps his head down.

You only have to look at the amateur scene to see that BC don't see women's and men's racing on an equal footing (and has always been so).  One example is that there is a national series for junior men (16 to 18 years old), but no equivalent for women, despite offers from organisers to provide for one.

Most women who race will be able to tell you a case of overt sexist toward them, and of the more everyday, unnoticed sexism in racing.  At amateur level, a fraction of events will include a women's race, resulting in racing female riders travelling significantly greater distances to compete, usually in E/1/2/3/4 races, where the men's equivalent is 2/3/4.  This means that female riders starting out (cat 4) often have to ride in fields with riders who are leagues ahead of them, much more so than male riders at the same stage.  This doesn't encourage new women to give racing a go.

I have been to an E/1/2/3/4 race where the field was massively diverse in experience - the commissaire's comment on this could have been 'there is potentially a wide range of ability in the field, here is what will happen when the field splits'. His actual comment was 'some of you won't have done much training because you need to spend a lot of time doing housework'. I don't believe that it is isolated individuals at all.
Providing for women's racing is a challenge in particular due to the relatively small numbers and the increasing costs of promoting an event. Locally I hope the new off road circuits will allow for more opportunity to get balanced racing going (ie fields that are even in ability). However, that commissaire should be retired. I hope he (I presume it was a he) was reported through the appropriate channels.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Jasmine on 27 April, 2016, 05:24:16 pm
It is challenging to promote women's events, but there is a lot that can be done to help to reduce costs.  A good example is using 'piggyback' events where the men's and women's events are held on the same course at the same time.  This requires a course to either be continuous or loops over a particular size such that the women's event can start 10 minutes after the men's event.  This allows many of the overheads to be doubled up (venue hire, static marshals etc.), but does require 1.5x NEG and 2x commissaire.  I've comm'ed at regional events doing this, and it works quite well. I'm also a believer in using men's entries to support women's events until they are big enough to stand alone (no events means no riders, no riders means no events - someone needs to break the stalemate).  There are women's events with 80 rider fields, so female riders definitely exist.

That commissaire was reported; that comment wasn't the worst aspect of that event, but we never heard anything from it. 

On the flip-side, I've met some phenomenal supporters and promoters of women's cycling, and it has come a long way in the last few years.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Mr Larrington on 27 April, 2016, 06:27:38 pm
Does anyone know what she did after retirement?

Reportedly studying for an MBA, though that was two years ago.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: rafletcher on 27 April, 2016, 06:43:45 pm
And Shane Sutton resigns....
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Veloman on 27 April, 2016, 10:31:50 pm
And Shane Sutton resigns....

Covered in post #13 and #19.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: David Martin on 28 April, 2016, 12:21:38 am
It is challenging to promote women's events, but there is a lot that can be done to help to reduce costs.  A good example is using 'piggyback' events where the men's and women's events are held on the same course at the same time.  This requires a course to either be continuous or loops over a particular size such that the women's event can start 10 minutes after the men's event.  This allows many of the overheads to be doubled up (venue hire, static marshals etc.), but does require 1.5x NEG and 2x commissaire.  I've comm'ed at regional events doing this, and it works quite well. I'm also a believer in using men's entries to support women's events until they are big enough to stand alone (no events means no riders, no riders means no events - someone needs to break the stalemate).  There are women's events with 80 rider fields, so female riders definitely exist.

That commissaire was reported; that comment wasn't the worst aspect of that event, but we never heard anything from it. 

On the flip-side, I've met some phenomenal supporters and promoters of women's cycling, and it has come a long way in the last few years.

Piggy backing can work where the course is suitable and there are bodies to help out. We still suffer the 'critical mass' issue and end up with mixed W/V50 races which aren't ideal. The governing bodies are helping with series promotion (and covering NEG/timing costs etc.)

My personal stand is having equal prize money for the TTs as long as there are sufficient riders. For the Scottish 10 champs (which I am organising) I have a total female entry of 35 riders, of which 3 are Juniors. Then again I had 150 entries from men, and many would not even try to get in.

My thought is that with the increase in circuits there will be more interest in 'giving it a go' with Go-race events (of which there was precisely 1 last year in Scotland). We will see most racing move to off road circuits and on-road races will be premium events with cat3+ and large fields/closed roads. More races but fewer on road.

This will be my first year as a newly qualified regional comm. So far I have a couple of 3/4 local races lined up and a Scottish women's series race.

Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Samuel D on 28 April, 2016, 12:31:37 pm
Imagine what Sutton was like to someone who was an only ok member of the team, or someone who was struggling psychologically.

From here (http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/36155942):

"Former BMX world champion Kelvin Batey said he was driven to suicidal thoughts by his "intimidating" experiences with British Cycling and Sutton.

"There was one point where I thought about stepping into the road and ending it all," said the 34-year-old Englishman told BBC Sport.

"That is how bad and how low it got me. Luckily, I had friends and family who pulled me through and positives came from a low point.

"I have never been that low and will never get get that low again.

"That man has got a lot to answer for because I am sure I am not the only person he has affected at such an extreme level."
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Si S on 28 April, 2016, 02:19:41 pm
And a Sky pro pours oil on troubled waters (http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/peter-kennaugh-deletes-tweets-criticising-emma-pooley-222929)
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: fuaran on 28 April, 2016, 03:32:30 pm
Well. BBC and Sky are reporting that Sutton has resigned.
But he is still employed by Team Sky.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Legs on 29 April, 2016, 09:52:27 am
And a Sky pro pours oil on troubled waters (http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/peter-kennaugh-deletes-tweets-criticising-emma-pooley-222929)

Genius (https://twitter.com/Patsykins_X/status/725727013202448386)
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mattc on 29 April, 2016, 10:03:45 am
Well. BBC and Sky are reporting that Sutton has resigned.
But he is still employed by Team Sky.

I heard on the radio that BC claim they didn't know Sky were also paying him. Bizarre.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: LEE on 29 April, 2016, 10:49:12 am
Christ... British Cycling are currently making Chelsea FC look like a model of stability.

Simon Yates's positive test couldn't be timed better.

Hopefully this may create a siege-mentality (as used by Mourinho at Chelsea FC) leading up to Rio, and some useful team-spirit (if they can stay off Twitter long enough).
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 April, 2016, 11:30:04 am
And a Sky pro pours oil on troubled waters (http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/peter-kennaugh-deletes-tweets-criticising-emma-pooley-222929)

Genius (https://twitter.com/Patsykins_X/status/725727013202448386)

And his tweet didn't even make any sense with the double negative.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Samuel D on 29 April, 2016, 11:32:42 am
Peter Kenyuck is a great cyclist but he has a big mouth and a history of putting his foot in it.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: clarion on 29 April, 2016, 01:23:51 pm
A former pro cyclist known to many here has related an incident in which he heard Sutton refer pejoratively to disabled people.  I am inclined to believe that.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: Veloman on 03 May, 2016, 07:13:18 pm
I heard Brailsford say on radio this morning the inquiry was going "to get to the bottom of it".  Unfortunate words I thought!
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: simonp on 28 October, 2016, 07:05:56 pm
Varnish's complaint has been upheld.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mattc on 28 October, 2016, 07:16:21 pm
Crikey.

I read this http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/37804761 , but am not much wiser; does this materially affect anyone??

(Apart from nailing Sutton's career coffin shut. Probably.) Does it benefit Jess at all?

It's a bit disappointing that the BBC page tells us almost nothing about Jess, but lists Sutton's amazing palmares  ::-)
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: sg37409 on 08 June, 2017, 01:53:32 pm
Cant imagine she's too happy with the lip service being paid here:
Wales in Open golf and Tour de France talks (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-39881639)

She won the womens tour a couple of times, world champs, Olympics, etc, etc
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: rogerzilla on 08 June, 2017, 01:57:08 pm
Allegedly the Boardman Team Carbon frame, sold by Halfords to thousands of Bike To Work commuters, is the same one that Cooke rode in the world championship, although presumably with slightly less horrible decals.

I think Cooke's fame and career suffered somewhat when Victoria Pendleton appeared on the scene.  Cooke was probably the better and tougher rider but Pendleton scrubbed up better for glossy magazines.  Such is rampant sexism...


Following linkified image not quite safe for work, but shows you what VP was willing to do in the name of self-promotion.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: DuncanM on 08 June, 2017, 04:15:03 pm
I think British Cycling was working very hard to promote their track team as media stars (hence people still ask if you think you're Chris Hoy when you're riding your bike) - Pendleton was a significant part of that. For a time she was as dominant in the track sprint events as Cooke was on the road - she won the only gold available to her at Beijing, but was world champ in the same 3 events as Hoy.  A total of 9 world track titles and 2 Olympic golds, plus a bunch of lesser medals suggests she was pretty good!
Cooke was never part of the BC scene (and indeed claims that they actively hindered her career on many occasions), so didn't have the publicity opportunities that Pendleton had, and womens road cycling at that time was in a mess - if Cooke was at the height of her powers now then her fame and earning potential would be massively greater. She was basically the best woman road cyclist in the world between the years 2003-2009.

PS - has the article been amended? It now links to the report of Cooke's road race gold at the 2008 Olympics.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 08 June, 2017, 04:32:12 pm
I think British Cycling was working very hard to promote their track team as media stars (hence people still ask if you think you're Chris Hoy when you're riding your bike) - Pendleton was a significant part of that. For a time she was as dominant in the track sprint events as Cooke was on the road - she won the only gold available to her at Beijing, but was world champ in the same 3 events as Hoy.  A total of 9 world track titles and 2 Olympic golds, plus a bunch of lesser medals suggests she was pretty good!
Cooke was never part of the BC scene (and indeed claims that they actively hindered her career on many occasions), so didn't have the publicity opportunities that Pendleton had, and womens road cycling at that time was in a mess - if Cooke was at the height of her powers now then her fame and earning potential would be massively greater. She was basically the best woman road cyclist in the world between the years 2003-2009.

PS - has the article been amended? It now links to the report of Cooke's road race gold at the 2008 Olympics.
The point is *all* it mentions is her road race gold, no mention of her other (many) wins, her sitting as world road champion for several years.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: sg37409 on 08 June, 2017, 06:24:26 pm
It was the lack of mentioning she's actually won the tour a couple of times that struck me.  If I thought they could have at least acknowledged that, I'd bet NC would be a tad pissed off about it.  I'm about 3/4 through her book just now, and really enjoying it.   Her wins came in spite of british cycling which is in contrast to the situation now.
Title: Re: Cookie opens her mouth - and out comes sense again
Post by: DuncanM on 08 June, 2017, 09:34:54 pm
Her book is brilliant. More information about bike racing and tactics in there than all the other cycling books I've ever read! BC (Shane Sutton especially) were enormously obstructive and were no help at all with the whole Halfords mess. To be fair, the article is about hosting events (golf and TdF) - the people associated part is very small. You're right though - I imagine she would be peed off...