Author Topic: Tubeless for Dummies  (Read 195169 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #850 on: 10 November, 2018, 06:45:12 pm »
I've also heard that various manufacturers – not just Continental – routinely call 3 plies of 60tpi 180tpi (etc).

Tell us more.
There's not much more to tell. I've simply read it as a general warning/advice, that for some manufacturers "120tpi" means "120tpi in each ply" and for others it means "120tpi in total, divide by number of plys to find tpi per ply". It's never (that I've seen) been linked to any named manufacturer, but I have a feeling Vittoria do it, for instance. In fact, I wonder if most do. That said, my impression from using both on the same bike is that Vittoria Rubino roll better than Continental GP4Seasons. But that's irrelevant to this thread as neither are tubeless.

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed.
This is rather the problem... Why assume? Might be better to find out from those who've used both tyres or wait for reliable test figures.

Because speculation is fun! I hope it’s obvious from my past that if facts emerge to cast doubt on my assumption I will adjust it cheerfully.
I don't know about your past! But admittedly you did give reasoning and state clearly it's not based on experience or data, so it's not actually misleading.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #851 on: 10 November, 2018, 10:03:23 pm »
Schwalbe used to make this claim on their website - that other manufacturers quoted the total of the three fabric layers rather than just the thread count of each layer. They didn’t say which or all, and even though 320tpi (or 260) corespun cotton is not divisible by 3 it’s possible there is some rounding going on.

Whatever, open corsas ride very nicely.

Samuel D

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #852 on: 11 November, 2018, 01:04:18 pm »
Schwalbe still makes such claims. Under the section “What does EPI mean in relation to the carcass?” is written among other things:

“But be cautious when comparing EPI indications, as often the number of strands of all carcass layers are added together. An indication of 200 TPI results e.g. from 3 layers of 67 EPI each underneath the tread. With all EPI numbers above 150, it should be assumed that the figures have been calculated by adding up the strands in all layers. Schwalbe only indicates the material density in one carcass layer. Commonly, there are 3 carcass layers underneath the tread.”

I just counted the cords in a Schwalbe One (HS 448) tyre. This was difficult because the rubber coating partially obscures them and I don’t have a linen tester or even a magnifying glass. I made it about 110 TPI, which is close enough to Schwalbe’s claim of 127 TPI. About every 4 mm runs a supporting perpendicular cord (the warp to the weft, so to speak).

If I can get my hands on a linen tester I’ll attempt a more precise count of the threads in a Veloflex Master open tubular.

By the way, I think some of the open tubular designs have only two casing plies under the tread but then have a third strip of the same fabric glued beneath the tread as a rudimentary puncture strip. By counting only the plies of the casing itself the manufacturer would have an excuse for doubling the tread count (rather than tripling it) in the interest of making the TPI claim more plausible than Continental’s brass-necked exaggeration.

Ben T

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #853 on: 12 November, 2018, 09:21:29 am »
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #854 on: 12 November, 2018, 09:32:37 am »
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.

High tpi counts indicate very thin and flexible threads, which leads to a carcass that is softer and with less hysteresis. Consequently, the the tyre is likely to be more comfortable and have lower rolling resistance.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #855 on: 12 November, 2018, 09:45:34 am »
I read that Schwalbe blurb as saying there’s no such thing as a true 330 tpi tyre, and that they’re accusing other manufacturers of inflating their specs by adding the numbers up for each layer.

So a Continental “320 tpi” tyre may have *fewer* threads in each layer than a Schalbe “127 tpi”.

Ben T

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #856 on: 12 November, 2018, 10:31:59 am »
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.

High tpi counts indicate very thin and flexible threads, which leads to a carcass that is softer and with less hysteresis. Consequently, the the tyre is likely to be more comfortable and have lower rolling resistance.

So surely 3 layers of 110tpi is the best of both worlds.... it seems to be being argued above (not by you) that claiming 330 tpi when it is in fact 3x110 is somehow "cheating"... :-\

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #857 on: 12 November, 2018, 10:33:48 am »
Three plys of 110TPI layered will be stiffer than a single thickness ply of 330TPI.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #858 on: 12 November, 2018, 10:36:39 am »
Why is 3 layers of 110 tpi not as good as one layer of 330 tpi?
The strands presumably don't all line up.
If a thorn manages to get between the strands of one layer, it might get caught on a strand in the next layer.

High tpi counts indicate very thin and flexible threads, which leads to a carcass that is softer and with less hysteresis. Consequently, the the tyre is likely to be more comfortable and have lower rolling resistance.

So surely 3 layers of 110tpi is the best of both worlds.... it seems to be being argued above (not by you) that claiming 330 tpi when it is in fact 3x110 is somehow "cheating"... :-\

3 x 110tpi is like wearing 3 jumpers

330tpi is a completely different thing to 3 x 110tpi

Ben T

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #859 on: 12 November, 2018, 10:39:24 am »
yeah but better or worse?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #860 on: 12 November, 2018, 11:05:08 am »
yeah but better or worse?
More supple.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #861 on: 12 November, 2018, 12:49:40 pm »
Since we do not know which methods tyre manufacturers use to describe the construction of their products, comparison is meaningless.

I'm inclined to offer a weary 'so what' to this rather pointless discussion. It seems a rather weak attempt to further Samuel's 'tubeless is rubbish' agenda.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #862 on: 12 November, 2018, 10:17:00 pm »
I don’t think that was where we were at. I’m tubeless on all bit on bike.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #863 on: 13 November, 2018, 08:14:58 am »
We've now lost two more members as a result of this thread.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #864 on: 13 November, 2018, 08:43:49 am »
We've now lost two more members as a result of this thread.

I’m a bit surprised by that. I’ve just reread it and the discussion is courteous and largely either admitted opinion or technical - other than HF’s single comment. Seems a bit odd.

The other thread degenerated and is best forgotten, while being remembered as an example of what can happen.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #865 on: 13 November, 2018, 08:59:32 am »
Could we just clear something up?  Going tubeless is like your bike going commando, right?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #866 on: 13 November, 2018, 09:53:18 am »
What's going tubular, then?  That must be like wearing long johns and trousers, sewn together at the waist and the ankles.  All very secure until you need to address a leak.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #867 on: 13 November, 2018, 11:10:15 am »
If you believe all you read on here you'd think that if you go tubeless, sooner or later you'll be riding bareback.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #868 on: 13 November, 2018, 05:45:16 pm »
What's going tubular, then?  That must be like wearing long johns and trousers, sewn together at the waist and the ankles.  All very secure until you need to address a leak.

If you put a bit of sealant in, its like being smothered in goose fat and sewn into your winter clothes.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #869 on: 13 November, 2018, 06:38:21 pm »
You pay good money for that in Soho.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #870 on: 13 November, 2018, 07:27:27 pm »
Three plys of 110TPI layered will be stiffer than a single thickness ply of 330TPI.

This makes me wonder - just to further derail the discussion - is there such a thing as a bicycle tyre with a single-layered carcass?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #871 on: 13 November, 2018, 07:29:38 pm »
You pay good money for that in Soho.

When dining out in Soho, one can avoid the overpriced fare of the tourist traps if one has local knowledge. I imagine that holds true of other leisure activities too.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #872 on: 13 November, 2018, 09:18:34 pm »
To get back on track. I was seduced by the claims of finish line Kevlar sealant. I put it into two new tyres on rims that were designed for tubeless. The rear tyre has stayed up but the front has deflated on 5 successive days despite in excess of 100km and multiple re inflations to 100psi.

I will be using stans in future.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #873 on: 14 November, 2018, 09:02:39 am »
(If previously posted, apols, I don't follow this thread avidly and its pretty active)

Continental GP5000 tubeless

Check the price though! And they seem heavy.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #874 on: 14 November, 2018, 11:31:44 am »
To get back on track. I was seduced by the claims of finish line Kevlar sealant. I put it into two new tyres on rims that were designed for tubeless. The rear tyre has stayed up but the front has deflated on 5 successive days despite in excess of 100km and multiple re inflations to 100psi.

I will be using stans in future.

Had the same experiance.  On paper it sounds like it should be great but in practice the liquid bit just doesnt seem to want to "cure" properly and make the seal.  Maybe they had to make it thinner to carry the carbon fibre without turning to porridge, I don't know.  Whatever it is, it doesnt work.