eBikes - easier, OR faster?

[JohnL]

I didn’t think that cycling offences affect your car driving licence in the UK (although they do here in Germany)

That’s the point. (Excuse the pun).

It’s not a cycling offence. It’s a motoring offence.

John

[PhilO]

I didn’t think that cycling offences affect your car driving licence in the UK (although they do here in Germany)

That’s the point. (Excuse the pun).

It’s not a cycling offence. It’s a motoring offence.

John

To clarify further, several offences. It's an electric motorbike ( or moped), so as a minimum you would be guilty of:
Driving untaxed.
Driving uninsured
Driving without an MOT.
Driving without the correct license
Driving without the correct safety equipment.

[Ben T]

I think they potentially can in the UK. Whether or not they do...

[grams]

accelerating to 25kph with assistance and then it cutting out is most frustrating. i wonder if it's the case with the modern road e-bikes which are supposed to give some assistance for less capable riders to ride in a stronger group (where the typical average is above 30kph)?

Weaker riders (like myself) can happily draft along with stronger riders on the flat at speeds we wouldn't be able to do by ourselves, but immediately get dropped on the hills because drafting doesn't work against gravity - and the strongest riders also like to drop their watt bombs at that point in the ride. So an electric road bike with a speed limiter would actually be a perfect fit for keeping up on group rides.

(you can see this happen on audaxes/sportives/etc where everyone rides together until the first steep hill)

[mrcharly-YHT]

De-limiting an e-bike is just as antisocial as blowing through red lights, stop signs, IMO. The very first time there is an accident involving a de-limited e-bike, it will make the charlie alliston case seem nothing.
Look forward to clamp-downs on every e-bike, and every person riding a bike fast being accused of riding a de-limited ebike and being run off the road by a vigilante.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I find it difficult to be concerned about blowing red lights, etc. when nobody is about.

Fast e-bikes are small beer compared to 2 tonne motor vehicles breaking speed limits, which about 80% of them do every single time they are driven.

[mattc]

It’s not a cycling offence. It’s a motoring offence.

To clarify further, several offences. It's an electric motorbike ( or moped), so as a minimum you would be guilty of:
Driving untaxed.
Driving uninsured
Driving without an MOT.
Driving without the correct license
Driving without the correct safety equipment.

That's OK then. Just tell the judge you need it for work, and you'll get off with a £50 fine. And no ban.

#littlebitofpolitics

[CAMRAMan]

I have the previous incarnation of one of these. It is really rather good, although I did have battery connection issues which I fixed myself. It has a rear hub motor and a 13AH battery that gives me about 35 miles range on my commute. I suspect the battery suffered from little use early in its life (I bought the bike a year old) and it would have more range. I get to work fresh as a daisy, which is the main reason I got it.

I have also converted an Orbit to a front hub set up. It's a very different machine. Lighter and more nimble, but not half the fun. The Oxygen is surprisingly easy to ride off-road. The power kicks in quickly and helps me up inclines I would otherwise struggle on. It is heavy - probably 23Kg with all the bits I have on it, but doesn't feel it. I had a battery built up for the Orbit and I think it would give me 70 miles range, with me putting a fair amount of effort in.

There are lots of <£1000 machines out there, but just don't! I got a Woosh cheap off eBay and it basically fell to pieces. The motor and battery were great, but the frame and fittings were £99 Argos bike quality. Horrible. I have fallen out with the owner of the company on pedelecs.co.uk after honest reviews of his product. They seem to have learned their lesson and their newer offerings seem better equipped and built.

Incidentally, I suspect 99%+ of traffic police will not have the slightest clue as to ebike regulations. That's not to say I condone riding illegally, but the chances of getting caught - unless some eejit* really screws up (& someone will sooner or later) - are very slim at the moment.

* There are lots of those on pedelecs boasting about machines that grossly exceed 15.5MPH. One manufacturer sells a 1000W, 'off-road' (yeah, right) bike that can be switched to 250W to ride legally, but how many buyers are going to select the slower option?

[Kim]

One manufacturer sells a 1000W, 'off-road' (yeah, right) bike that can be switched to 250W to ride legally, but how many buyers are going to select the slower option?

Those trying to conserve range; the 25kph limit is about the sweet spot between going fast enough to make decent progress and gratuitous power consumption.

Of course, if you're planning to make a habit of it, you're going to buy a more modest motor and spend the difference on a bigger battery...

[Samuel D]

Those trying to conserve range; the 25kph limit is about the sweet spot between going fast enough to make decent progress and gratuitous power consumption.

Sounds quite a bit like using your legs for power.

[Kim]

Those trying to conserve range; the 25kph limit is about the sweet spot between going fast enough to make decent progress and gratuitous power consumption.

Sounds quite a bit like using your legs for power.

YLMV

[Basil]

YLMV

 

[zigzag]

for my commuter/runabout bike i'd like a setup which is invisible from outside (to prevent theft), adds about 100w whenever i pedal, doesn't cut out at 25kph and the battery has a range of 150-200km. this would mean i'd arrive fresh and clean all the time without wearing any cycling kit. charge the battery once a week, what's not to like! i'm certain the technology isn't that far away.

[andrew_s]

There are lots of those on pedelecs boasting about machines that grossly exceed 15.5MPH. One manufacturer sells a 1000W, 'off-road' (yeah, right) bike that can be switched to 250W to ride legally, but how many buyers are going to select the slower option?

The Department for Transport say that the availability of a derestricted mode is enough to make it not a legal e-bike. I suspect that a court case would be required to sort it out though.

Incidentally, bearing your forum handle in mind, the immunity from breath tests is something else that would go with the speed restriction.

[JennyB]

for my commuter/runabout bike i'd like a setup which is invisible from outside (to prevent theft), adds about 100w whenever i pedal, doesn't cut out at 25kph and the battery has a range of 150-200km. this would mean i'd arrive fresh and clean all the time without wearing any cycling kit. charge the battery once a week, what's not to like! i'm certain the technology isn't that far away.

That's possible, but at present it would need a battery of about 6 litres in size, which is hardly inconspicuous.  I find I get better range by using more power on hills and none when I could push a higher than normal gear. That way, I find that half that size gets me easily as far as I want to go at a stretch (100-160 km) and for a really long ride it's small enough to take inside and recharge at a cafe stop or the like.

[andrew_s]

for my commuter/runabout bike i'd like a setup which is invisible from outside (to prevent theft), adds about 100w whenever i pedal, doesn't cut out at 25kph and the battery has a range of 150-200km. this would mean i'd arrive fresh and clean all the time without wearing any cycling kit. charge the battery once a week, what's not to like! i'm certain the technology isn't that far away.

here you are:
http://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/6-of-the-best-electric-motorcycles-you-should-try-in-2016

We've been through power assisted pedal cycles once, starting with dinky little engines bolted on to ordinary pedal cycles, and, in the absence of restriction, the end result is the Fireblade and its ilk.
There's no need to do it all over again with a different type of engine, especially when electric motorcycles are becoming available.

The point of the e-bike regulations isn't to enable regular cyclists to go faster with less effort, but to make cycling accessible to those who wouldn't otherwise ride

[Kim]

The point of the e-bike regulations isn't to enable regular cyclists to go faster with less effort, but to make cycling accessible to those who wouldn't otherwise ride

Very succinct.   

[zigzag]

for my commuter/runabout bike i'd like a setup which is invisible from outside (to prevent theft), adds about 100w whenever i pedal, doesn't cut out at 25kph and the battery has a range of 150-200km. this would mean i'd arrive fresh and clean all the time without wearing any cycling kit. charge the battery once a week, what's not to like! i'm certain the technology isn't that far away.

here you are:
http://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/6-of-the-best-electric-motorcycles-you-should-try-in-2016

We've been through power assisted pedal cycles once, starting with dinky little engines bolted on to ordinary pedal cycles, and, in the absence of restriction, the end result is the Fireblade and its ilk.
There's no need to do it all over again with a different type of engine, especially when electric motorcycles are becoming available.

The point of the e-bike regulations isn't to enable regular cyclists to go faster with less effort, but to make cycling accessible to those who wouldn't otherwise ride

i'm fully aware about the electric motor bikes - it's not what i'm after though.

[CAMRAMan]

There are lots of those on pedelecs boasting about machines that grossly exceed 15.5MPH. One manufacturer sells a 1000W, 'off-road' (yeah, right) bike that can be switched to 250W to ride legally, but how many buyers are going to select the slower option?

The Department for Transport say that the availability of a derestricted mode is enough to make it not a legal e-bike. I suspect that a court case would be required to sort it out though.

Almost all FWD & RWD bikes are readily derestrictable. It's a relatively simple task (when you know how to do it, natch) of accessing the maximum speed setting on the display and upping it to the desired speed. By default, the kit I fitted to the Orbit did not have the maximum speed set to 15.5MPH. I had to do that. It's also possible by entering the wrong wheel size on smaller-wheeled bikes. BB drives are more sophisticated and made by Bosch & Yamaha in the main. They are harder to derestrict, but, as someone above mentioned, there are expensive dongles that fool the control mechanism in one of several ways. Plod would have to know how to enter the workings on the controller to check these settings and, short of seizing the bike, would be difficult to do roadside.

[zigzag]

majority of e-bikes i've seen on london roads were derestricted, so if there was a will plod could seize them and fine the owners. the easy way to tell is if someone is sitting upright and going above 30kph.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I should think the chance of having ebike regs enforced is even less than the chance of being prosecuted for filing out the baffles on your 50cc Fizzy back in 1985.

As for journey time, it's not just about top speed. In a commuting situation, the extra acceleration could allow you to not get baulked by slower riders and to get through the next set of lights before they turn. Out of town those become irrelevant, of course.

[Kim]

As for journey time, it's not just about top speed. In a commuting situation, the extra acceleration could allow you to not get baulked by slower riders and to get through the next set of lights before they turn. Out of town those become irrelevant, of course.

It also reduces the time you have to wait for a suitable gap in traffic when negotiating a busy junction, particularly if it's uphill.  Indeed, a lot of the e-bike users I've talked to (who at this point are generally using them for age/disability reasons) find the confidence from being able to accelerate sharply is as important as not being defeated by hills.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Good point. And I expect the extra power and more so it's independence from crank position comes in handy negotiating silly sustrans gates.

[Kim]

Good point. And I expect the extra power and more so it's independence from crank position comes in handy negotiating silly sustrans gates.

The harmonised EU pedelec regulations require a crank rotation sensor, although there are plenty of older bikes on the road that conform to the grandfathered British regulations that allowed pure hand throttle control, and of course plenty of non-compliant conversions.  TBH, the advantages of extra power for slaloms are probably cancelled out by the disadvantages of a heavy bike when the Silly Sustrans Gate requires a dismount.

(Personally - much as I like pedal torque sensing as a means of control for a 'cycling' experience - I think the crank rotation requirement is a bad idea.  The marginal safety advantage of the motor cutting out when you stop pedalling is less useful than the accessibility benefit of throttle-only operation, for example as a bail-out option for someone with an unpredictable leg problem.  And it's one more fiddly sensor and wiring to complicate the cheap conversions that might get a commuter out of a car.)

[SA_SA_SA_SA]

The harmonised EU pedelec regulations require a crank rotation sensor, although there are plenty of older bikes on the road that conform to the grandfathered British regulations that allowed pure hand throttle control,

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules contains

The bike must also be type approved if either
    ......
    it can be propelled without pedalling (a ‘twist and go’ EAPC)

So if you are prepared to pay the fee (and hassle) for type approval at the appropriate centre (eg like kit cars) then you can still have full twist control. I wonder how many have done this?
(I think the normal  rules allow a 4mph(6kph) walking/start assistance without pedalling (eg by button press as on the Nano kits but I don't have a link to the legislation but this https://www.juicybike.co.uk/uk-europe-ebike-law mentions that rule and gives the standard  as EN15194 ).