E bikes - 'the next big thing'

[CAMRAMan]

Have we got an Ebikes 101? Choice of motor type/position, best battery chemistry (I'm guessing Lithium ion), recommended brands, brands to avoid, that sort of thing?

That would be helpful. I'm thinking of doing one of my solos on the cheap once I get the tandem back. Some suggestions would be helpful.

'On the cheap' depends on the definition of 'cheap'. There are kits on eBay very cheap. What you want to avoid is one that needs an external speed sensor. Not only is that a faff to wire up, but it isn't the best technology either. Most decent kits' hubs have built-in speed sensors. You also don't want a direct drive hub, but a geared one. Direct drive is cheap, but very old hat. You'd be looking at at least £400 to get a decent kit & a not-so-decent sized battery. £100 more would get you a much better battery and longer range.

Although in Germany, I like the look of this company's kits, without actually having used one, I add. The bottom bracket sensor is the type I recommend and the connectors are colour coded and easy to use. Whether I would use the frame bag to house the controller & wiring is another matter. My conversion uses a saddle pack and it fits rather neatly. If I make Long Itch & you are there, I may bring the Orbit conversion along for you to look at. That used a Panda Pro kit and a BGA battery. I went to town on the battery seeing as the kit was on sale. 17.5Ah gives me a lot of miles between charges at illegal speeds, even more were I to stick to 15.5MPH.

Hydraulic Disc braked bikes are harder to convert, as the levers need a rather Heath Robinson, stick-on sensor, unless you splash out on proper ebike levers.

[Chris S]

I don't think there's anything "next" about the big thing; we rode up onto the moors today, and of the four bikes propped against the wall next to us at the Lion Inn, three were e-MTBs. Nice looking bikes too.

Fboab might or might not have used the word "cheat", I couldn't possibly comment.

[Kim]

I don't think there's anything "next" about the big thing; we rode up onto the moors today, and of the four bikes propped against the wall next to us at the Li-ion Inn, three were e-MTBs. Nice looking bikes too.

FTFY

[Butterfly]

'On the cheap' depends on the definition of 'cheap'. There are kits on eBay very cheap. What you want to avoid is one that needs an external speed sensor. Not only is that a faff to wire up, but it isn't the best technology either. Most decent kits' hubs have built-in speed sensors. You also don't want a direct drive hub, but a geared one. Direct drive is cheap, but very old hat. You'd be looking at at least £400 to get a decent kit & a not-so-decent sized battery. £100 more would get you a much better battery and longer range.

Although in Germany, I like the look of this company's kits, without actually having used one, I add. The bottom bracket sensor is the type I recommend and the connectors are colour coded and easy to use. Whether I would use the frame bag to house the controller & wiring is another matter. My conversion uses a saddle pack and it fits rather neatly. If I make Long Itch & you are there, I may bring the Orbit conversion along for you to look at. That used a Panda Pro kit and a BGA battery. I went to town on the battery seeing as the kit was on sale. 17.5Ah gives me a lot of miles between charges at illegal speeds, even more were I to stick to 15.5MPH.

£500 is pretty much what I was thinking - cheap compared to getting a £1400 Pendix, lovely though they are. Thank you for that information. I certainly plan to be at Long Itch, hope you make it!

[Jakob]

I finished converting my wife's bike 2 weeks ago, using this kit:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/576-q100-36v350w-front-e-bike-whole-kit-ebike-kit.html#/213-rpm-201/381-display-lcd5

Now, we ended up paying about $250USD in shipping + $40CAD in customs.
No instructions, so it took a little digging around, but it works.
We got a reasonably steep hill nearby and it'll pull me (95kgs) up that hill at a 14-15km/h unassisted and you can easily maintain 25km/h if you help it along.
The PAS is pretty good, battery more than sufficient for our purpose.
Wheel build was outright dangerous and as I needed the LBS to help installing the PAS sensor (I have no idea where my crank arm puller lives nowadays) I had them tighten and true the wheel.
Also, since I was replacing a front wheel with dyno-hub/hub brake, I also had to buy a new v-brake.
Brake only disconnects the motor and there's no regen.

Still need to shorten all the wires and probably solder most of the connections.

Company was a bit of a pain to deal with and I probably wouldn't recommend them...however, they are one of the few companies that ship batteries via air. (Not sure if GreenBikeKit does).
Be prepared of getting charged multiple times for shipping. You'd think they'd figured it out by now, although I do know that shipping batteries changes quite often and can be tricky.

Best thing is that my wife loves it. It gets her on the bike and is perfect for her commute.

[T42]

Sign of the times: the Fédération Française de Cyclotourisme just dropped the Cyclotourisme and became the Fédération Française du Vélo. Their site banner now features an electric bike. Twats. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Sign of the times: the Fédération Française de Cyclotourisme just dropped the Cyclotourisme and became the Fédération Française du Vélo. Their site banner now features an electric bike. Twats. 

"Nous sommes vélo en France"

[Cudzoziemiec]

Caught up with an ebiking couple on Sunday. On the short twisty section just outside Malmesbury, as I came round the corner I saw a woman cycling ahead of me. From her low cadence, relatively high uphill speed and effortless demeanour I deduced she was electrically assisted and indeed she was. Hubby was waiting just at the top. Both on archetypal Kalkhoff sit-up-and-beg ebikes. I guess they were in their early 60s and they were clearly enjoying their day on bikes in the sun.

[Ham]

Saw loads of ebikes in France around the Bay of the Somme area (think Norfolk), what surprised me was the number of those with BB gearboxes (or/and motors, I think?) suggesting that they are coming down in price. They looked like the Pinion system I don't know if they were.

[Torslanda]

France, like a few other more enlightened European countries, offer incentives up to 20% off the list price of eBikes as government funding.

UK? 'Nah, mate. You can fuck off!'... It doesn't make anything for the tory twats and their mates.

[Tigerrr]

Back from a few months in Spain. Bought a new Trek ebike - it is excellent. Where we were in Spain the cycle market is transformed - high end road bikes and ebikes are all that sell. The 'mid market' has completely gone. Electrics overall outnumber traditional bikes and are the utility transport of many. I suspect it is result of local topography - extremely hilly so only athletes ride without assist.
Shocked by the price and quality of the bikes there - £3400 for top end dutch style electric bikes, and they sell as fast as they can lorry them from Holland/Germany. The electric bike has pretty much saved the bike industry there.
The UK is so far behind in this, and attitudes to electric bikes are still primitive.

[robgul]

I too have joined the e-bike brigade with an Orbea Gain road/touring bike.  The big attractions are that a) it rides like a slightly heavier tourer with the power switched off and b) it`s not looking  like a big clumsy e-bike as the battery is in a slighter fatter than normal down-tube and the motor is sandwiched between a disc rotor and a large sprocket on the 8sp cassette.  The weight is just a whisker over 13kg out of the box (Ive added mudguards, rack and a Brooks) - probably lighter than my venerable 1975 Galaxy.

Only ridden it a couple of times so far and still getting used to the gears/motor relationship - the plan is to ride without the power and just use the juice for the steeper hills.

Rob

[orienteer]

Rode my Moulton ATB with ARCC e-assist in solo form for the first time yesterday; usually only use it when in tandem configuration.

Did this to test a particular feature, it would be very easy to get used to it solo!

[bludger]

I actually owned an ebike for a short while over autumn and winter. I ended up returning it because mechanically the product was deficient (squeaks and creaks from inside the frameset - on inspection the thing had been assembled horrendously badly) and was a pig to maintain (removing the rear wheel was a nightmare). But I think they are the future of transportation and if they get people out of their poison death cages and joining our stakeholder interest group as bike users, then we're on to a winner.

The real problem right now is price. A quality ebike costs at least £1.5k. I went for one which was a grand, which was great for a few months but quickly made its deficiencies clear shortly after. It's mad that the gov has started promoting electric cars, autonomous vehicles etc while leaving the humble ebike on the stand.

[fd3]

As a user I'm not sure I would opt for an e-bike over a motorscooter as it would not have a place to stash stuff and I wouldn't be able to say "Chiao" with as much panache.
I reckon an e-bike is probably better as theoretically someone could buy one and end up actually cycling.

[cycleman]

The future is going to be e trikes  best for touring and utility   

[Nick H.]

Wilier have just announced what looks like a carbon speed machine but with the same electrics as the Orbea Gain http://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/the-lightest-e-road-bike-yet-wiliers-cento1-hybrid-launches-1667 Weighs 12 kg, which is less than my touring bike.

[Butterfly]

I rode the E-assist tandem to work today. The stretch last night recorded an average speed of 12.9 MPH as opposed to 8 MPH when I did it on a conventional solo last week. This is the difference between being a few minutes late and puffing when I assived at work and being 10 minutes early and fairly fresh. Back to the station today I had an average of 14.4 MPH compared to the last time I did that route on the solo which recorded 9.9 MPH. If the train hadn't been cancelled, that would have been fast enough to catch it. I think I really need a solo E-assist now 

[Peter]

I rode the E-assist tandem to work today. The stretch last night recorded an average speed of 12.9 MPH as opposed to 8 MPH when I did it on a conventional solo last week. This is the difference between being a few minutes late and puffing when I assived at work and being 10 minutes early and fairly fresh. Back to the station today I had an average of 14.4 MPH compared to the last time I did that route on the solo which recorded 9.9 MPH. If the train hadn't been cancelled, that would have been fast enough to catch it. I think I really need a solo E-assist now 

And so does the train company.

[Butterfly]

I rode the E-assist tandem to work today. The stretch last night recorded an average speed of 12.9 MPH as opposed to 8 MPH when I did it on a conventional solo last week. This is the difference between being a few minutes late and puffing when I assived at work and being 10 minutes early and fairly fresh. Back to the station today I had an average of 14.4 MPH compared to the last time I did that route on the solo which recorded 9.9 MPH. If the train hadn't been cancelled, that would have been fast enough to catch it. I think I really need a solo E-assist now 

And so does the train company.

Yes. The guard came through after I got on to say "I saw you getting on with your really big bike and wanted to know where you are getting off so I could come and help". In the event, I was off before she made it, but it was a kind offer. 

[nobby]

In mid February I fitted a Bafang BBS01B to an elderly Ammaco frame; the only one in my collection that would accept it.
I took it out to try, just 5 miles up and down local hills, this was a return to cycling after none for 30 months and very little for the 18 months before that, and I fell off on mud.
The next ride, following rest and physio for my injured back, was the first of this month and since then I have totalled 140Km and it has been a revelation. I am using it with the power setting of 5 levels and generally riding it on zero or level one to get my legs back into some shape. I am running it through an Alfine 8 IGH and haven't needed bottom gear and full power as yet.
When I got to 70km the number of power bands on the controller hadn't reduced and only one led was off on the battery (15Ah). I decided to recharge it rather than let it run down too far. It took exactly three hours.
After leaving Butterfly, TJ and Nye on Thursday I stopped on Enville Common because it was very sluggish. I checked that the brakes weren't dragging and that the chain wasn't tight but all was well. I set off again worrying that either hub or motor was at fault. I tried, illegally, the thumb throttle and it all perked up; I was riding into a headwind! An extra level of power, two when necessary, and all was good.
I am so pleased with it that I have bought a second motor to fit in one of my recumbents.
Today I am taking the motor from the Ammaco frame, which is too tall for me, and fitting it into my On One Inbred which I spent yesterday gently carving a piece from the right hand chainstay strengthening plate so that the motor will butt up fully to the bottom bracket shell.

Why is there no separate area for electric motors? Knowledge and information is getting spread all over YACF.

[andrewc]

https://www.bikebiz.com/news/bikes-need-3rd-part-insurance-in-eu


Mandatory insurance for E-bikes ?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/older-men-using-e-bikes-behind-rising-death-toll-among-dutch-cyclists


I'm seeing quite a few electric or electrically assisted bikes being ridden around Liverpool at impressive speeds and with alarming lack of road discipline.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've just been reading an old (2015) Jan Heine blog about ebikes, based on a visit to Japan, which raises some interesting points. Firstly, he mentions the democratising effect of electric power, which we're familiar with, but perhaps not from quite the same angle:

Then we saw them everywhere. Women (mostly, Japan still being a society with somewhat rigid gender roles, at least on the surface) who carried not just one, but often two children on seats attached on the front and back of their bikes. Mothers and children were well-dressed as Tokyoites tend to do and most definitely not working up a sweat, yet moving at a rather brisk pace.

I'm not sure I've ever seen two child seats on one bike. Two children, sure, in places where it's normal to carry kids in your arms or sitting on the crossbar etc rather than using special seats, but two seats on one bike allows Westerners to use a normal size bike for whole-family transport and electric motors give them the power to do it. Yes, we have things like the Helios and the box bikes, but they are large and special, making them cumbersome to store and expensive to buy. (And I'm considering Japan to be a Western nation in this respect, that it's shiny and safety conscious.)

Then there's infrastructure. Ebikes have had the effect of persuading Tokyoites to ride on the road rather than the pavement due to the lessened speed differential with motor vehicles:

Then Koichiro told me that Japanese urban cyclists recently have won the right to ride in the streets, after having been banished to the sidewalks for decades. He was very proud of this fact. I wonder how much e-bikes contributed, because they really are too fast to ride on the sidewalk.

But JH considers this might lead to demands for better quality cycle paths. Cycle roads, in fact (though he doesn't use this expression).

Anybody now can ride at speeds that before could be attained only by well-trained cyclists on performance bikes. That made me think that our infrastructure planners still are designing facilities for the last century. Most of the trendy cyclepaths are suitable for speeds of up to 15 km/h (9 mph), yet modern e-bikes go much faster. As your speed increases, the fear of getting hit from behind is reduced, whereas the dangers at intersections increase.

With e-bikes, we’ll soon have a new constituency who will demand a cycling infrastructure that can be used at reasonable speeds, which allows commuters to cover significant distances efficiently. It’s a constituency that cannot be so easily dismissed as “fast and fearless” ... but one that has to be taken seriously.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/07/06/e-bikes-are-game-changers/

Though it's also possible, I reckon, ebikes might have the opposite effect, at least in Britain, where cycle paths seem to be designed with fear in mind; they might lead to additional barriers in order to slow down these dangerous fast non-lycra louts. 

[nobby]

The future is going to be e trikes  best for touring and utility   

Except on narrow bridges?

[Nick H.]

they might lead to additional barriers in order to slow down these dangerous fast non-lycra louts.

Isn't it more likely that our politicians will class e-bikes as PTWs requiring helmets and registration?