TCR No9

[Phil Hears A Who]

Info is coming out now about Anatole being removed from GC. Looks like he rode for no more than 90 minutes along side another rider. They had the same pace on a parcour.

Looks like lost dot have been incredibly harsh on this one. When they said significant amount of time I thought they meant a whole day. Not 90 mins. Esp as on a climb where you can really only do one speed and stopping and restarting is hard.

Not impressed

J

Problem that I've observed is that every person that I've spoken to at the finish/read an opinion from has a different idea of what a "significant amount of time" is - no one seems to argue the point that significant time riding with others is outside the rules, it's where the limit is. 30-40 minutes was thrown around after the similar incident last year and I was surprised that nothing on the topic was mentioned at the rider briefing to be honest

[quixoticgeek]

Problem that I've observed is that every person that I've spoken to at the finish/read an opinion from has a different idea of what a "significant amount of time" is - no one seems to argue the point that significant time riding with others is outside the rules, it's where the limit is. 30-40 minutes was thrown around after the similar incident last year and I was surprised that nothing on the topic was mentioned at the rider briefing to be honest

Agreed. The race tries to have very simple rules do they can be printed on the back of the brevet card. In that regard I don't think with the rules as written it's fair to penalise someone for sharing a road for 90mins.

Especially on the parcours.

Personally I'd say the cut off time would be closer to 3 hours.

The related question with 30-40 minutes is if it's not ok to spend 30-40 mins chatting as you ride. What if you both end up at a pizzeria. Are you ok to invite a rider to join you at your table? If you both chat for 45 mins while eating pizza is that ok? But 45 mins while struggling up a parcour isn't ?

J

[Frank9755]

I'd say above an hour is getting risky, and doing it on the parcours when you are towards the front of the race was silly.  And normally a steep climb is where you would expect riders to be most likely to ride at different speeds, not bunch together.  The odds of two riders having exactly the same climbing speed for one minute are pretty long.  For 90 minutes there probably aren't two people in the world who would naturally climb at exactly the same speed.

Having said that, I think there should be / have been greater clarity on what is an important rule.  And I also found the tone and wording of the announcement that they had disqualified him to be rather patronising.

Normally what they look out for is people starting and stopping together as it is the strongest indication of riding together and easiest to spot from the tracker - but on the parcours they are going to be looking at everything more closely - especially the leaders!

[quixoticgeek]

Having said that, I think there should be / have been greater clarity on what is an important rule.  And I also found the announcement that they had disqualified him to be a rather patronising.

I think the one thing we all agree on is that Lost dot did not handle this well.

J

[felstedrider]

Byronnius got in this morning according to Facebook.

[morbihan]

well done Byronnius!
It looks like a particularly brutal edition with the wet start, the all-road parcours, and the heat.
The dog chases seem to be popping up more frequently this year too judging by all the reports.
 Perhaps due to the long parcours off the main drag.
Enjoy your achievement!

[Zed43]

What is the idea behind "no riding along side another rider. [for significant time]"?

No drafting? No moral support? Both?

[JonBuoy]

What is the idea behind "no riding along side another rider. [for significant time]"?

No drafting? No moral support? Both?

I think that no drafting is a given unless you are riding as a pair.  The current fuss is about moral support.

[quixoticgeek]

I think that no drafting is a given unless you are riding as a pair.  The current fuss is about moral support.

Correct. Basically it is believed by many that riding with someone else gives you a mental boost that improves your performance.

J

[JonBuoy]

It looks like Mikko has overshot the finish.  I guess he has another 8 hours to kill

By my reckoning that just leaves James Vernon with a chance of completing before the finish closes.  He has about 80k with a fair bit of climbing so he can't afford to mess about.

[StuAff]

It looks like Mikko has overshot the finish.  I guess he has another 8 hours to kill

By my reckoning that just leaves James Vernon with a chance of completing before the finish closes.  He has about 80k with a fair bit of climbing so he can't afford to mess about.

They've both made it

[Frank9755]

What is the idea behind "no riding along side another rider. [for significant time]"?

No drafting? No moral support? Both?

If you ride together it's not possible to prove that you were not drafting, and the burden of proof is on the rider.   

[Byronius Maximus]

well done Byronnius!
It looks like a particularly brutal edition with the wet start, the all-road parcours, and the heat.
The dog chases seem to be popping up more frequently this year too judging by all the reports.
 Perhaps due to the long parcours off the main drag.
Enjoy your achievement!

Thanks! Only just thought to check in on this thread. Currently chilling at my hotel having finally got to enjoy a hotel breakfast that I paid for rather than leaving at 4am!

That was quite an experience, and I think overall harder than I expected it to be. I found the first 4-5 days pretty tough mentally and it was only after that that I really got into my groove. Even then, I found  that when I managed to get in some kind of a rhythm, the race had a habit of throwing up some new challenge to put me off - such is TCR I suppose. I think my strategy for a race this long would need a lot of work...hotels are good for keeping the body and mind in good condition but I faff too much when using them.

Lots of talk/complaints about how rough some of the parcours were afterwards. I have mixed feelings but think it would be better to let the dust settle a bit before we give feedback, as tired riders aren't likely to give a clear opinion. I felt a little for the race director on this but equally hope they do take on board some of the feedback they receive.

From a performance perspective, I don't think I had as good form as I did going into TPR last year (insert various excuses) so for most of it I didn't really ride aggressively like I was able to in the second half of that race. However, I did realise part way along that, for me, just getting a GC finish would be something I'd be proud of, even if I could find ways to improve my time, so I am pleased with that. And of course, the shared experience of doing such a thing alongside other riders that you barely know but form that bond with, is very special.

Well done any other YACFers who rode - how did you all get on? Phil - you put in one hell of a ride, congratulations...I looked at the tracker on day 2 or 3, and thought "yep, won't be seeing him until the end"

It's going to take a long time to process that one though I'm already softening my stance on definitely not doing it another time

[Byronius Maximus]

Oh and regarding dogs. This seemed to be a big deal but I guess I felt a little smug as I spent 5 months in 2018 learning my dog avoidance techniques in South America In my experience, they rarely ever mean anything and are easily scared off either by throwing a rock or pretending to. That said, I gather one rider actually got bitten (lightly).
I also hadn't anticipated the difference darkness would make to handling these situations - on the second sandy track of the finish parcours, which I did at night, the pack of dogs we'd been warned about were there...I could only see one of them but I could hear them barking on both sides of the track. I'll admit that made me a little scared! I picked up a few rocks and threw them indiscriminately in the direction of the barking and hastily walked off pushing my bike!

[Byronius Maximus]

What is the idea behind "no riding along side another rider. [for significant time]"?

No drafting? No moral support? Both?

If you ride together it's not possible to prove that you were not drafting, and the burden of proof is on the rider.

I find this is a really tricky subject. There is definitely an advantage from riding alongside and chatting with another rider and I did it a couple of times but probably 5 minutes max, with the exception of one which was a little longer where I felt a bit uncomfortable but couldn't get rid of the other rider (and too damn polite to tell him so).

It's a tricky line for Lostdot to get right but I do worry that they run the risk of effectively policing the race in a way that means you have to ride it as there is no race going on - i.e. act as though there are no other riders. Is that really what is wanted? I think it's possible to strike a balance between ensuring that everyone rides it solo and unsupported while still having that camaraderie of the road, which I think draws many people into the race. It's funny (and paradoxical) how something which is a solitary experience in one sense is simultaneously a deeply shared experience. I worry that Lostdot risk taking that away from people.

[StuAff]

well done Byronnius!
It looks like a particularly brutal edition with the wet start, the all-road parcours, and the heat.
The dog chases seem to be popping up more frequently this year too judging by all the reports.
 Perhaps due to the long parcours off the main drag.
Enjoy your achievement!

Thanks! Only just thought to check in on this thread. Currently chilling at my hotel having finally got to enjoy a hotel breakfast that I paid for rather than leaving at 4am!

That was quite an experience, and I think overall harder than I expected it to be. I found the first 4-5 days pretty tough mentally and it was only after that that I really got into my groove. Even then, I found  that when I managed to get in some kind of a rhythm, the race had a habit of throwing up some new challenge to put me off - such is TCR I suppose. I think my strategy for a race this long would need a lot of work...hotels are good for keeping the body and mind in good condition but I faff too much when using them.

Lots of talk/complaints about how rough some of the parcours were afterwards. I have mixed feelings but think it would be better to let the dust settle a bit before we give feedback, as tired riders aren't likely to give a clear opinion. I felt a little for the race director on this but equally hope they do take on board some of the feedback they receive.

From a performance perspective, I don't think I had as good form as I did going into TPR last year (insert various excuses) so for most of it I didn't really ride aggressively like I was able to in the second half of that race. However, I did realise part way along that, for me, just getting a GC finish would be something I'd be proud of, even if I could find ways to improve my time, so I am pleased with that. And of course, the shared experience of doing such a thing alongside other riders that you barely know but form that bond with, is very special.

Well done any other YACFers who rode - how did you all get on? Phil - you put in one hell of a ride, congratulations...I looked at the tracker on day 2 or 3, and thought "yep, won't be seeing him until the end"

It's going to take a long time to process that one though I'm already softening my stance on definitely not doing it another time

Congratulations Byron!

[chrisbainbridge]

Congratulations. Amazing effort from you and everybody involved.

[grams]

i.e. act as though there are no other riders. Is that really what is wanted?

One of the Lost Dot podcast episodes briefly mentioned that this was exactly what was wanted (calling it "kayfabe"), although I've not really heard it stated in such terms anywhere else. I don't remember it being emphasised in the start briefing last year.

tbh My understanding was that most people enter TCR on the assumption they won't see anyone else on the road, and it's the last event to enter if you want camaraderie.

[Byronius Maximus]

If that is their aim then fair enough, but I don't feel that is made particularly clear. Camaraderie can come in many forms though and it doesn't have to mean literally riding with others. E.g. I had a day where I was pushing it to get to a border before the border post shut at 8pm, and there were other riders around me doing the same. We never once rode with each other but we would share a little encouragement as we passed (I got a "come on man, keep moving" when taking a break from the sun)...that was a hard day but a special experience because we were all going through that same pain and it wouldn't have been the same alone - that's the kind of camaraderie I mean, and the race would be the worse without it.

[mattc]

LostDot did ok.
The GC / not GC categories take care of this. There's no prize money, none of this matters. LostDot have no obligations here, you just accept that they'll do their best. Riders share the responsibility; make it Very Easy for them to NOT penalise you.
Want company? Ride an Audax.
Want an honesty system? Ride a different event.

<Goes into hiding>

[Phil Hears A Who]

LostDot did ok.
The GC / not GC categories take care of this. There's no prize money, none of this matters. LostDot have no obligations here, you just accept that they'll do their best. Riders share the responsibility; make it Very Easy for them to NOT penalise you.
Want company? Ride an Audax.
Want an honesty system? Ride a different event.

<Goes into hiding>

I agree,  ultimately it's lost Dots's decision and if you'd done your research you'd know what their likely response to something like this would be before the race, whether or not you agree with it.

One thing I think is unfortunate is that a lot of people on social media discussing this are saying things like "that's not very #bemoremike" or "Lost Dot are destroying Mike's legacy", as though his approach to running the race was based on some laissez-faire, "just don't be a dick" attitude, where it was just about th good vibes. If you watch his videos on the rules and the spirit of the race, he was incredibly serious about riding independently, and explains why he created the pairs category explicitly to stop mates just riding together in the solo category. I've only come to the sport recently, but you have to trust that Lost Dot, especially Anna, understand Mike's vision for the race the best of anyone. Sure, they can mess up the communication of various things sometimes (I agree with Frank that the statement RE anatoly was rather patronising), and could save themselves some headache by being a bit clearer on a few things covered under the self supported/equal opportunity rule, but it's their race, and they're very upfront about taking a more judicious approach to rules than some other events. At this point you kind of just need to understand and accept that if you're entering a LD event, and go elsewhere if you don't like it.

All that said, some of the absolute high points of the whole event were the brief interactions with other riders, whether that be riding together for a short period, or bumping into each other kebab shop or petrol station. Itd be really tragic if everyone ended up riding as if they were totally solo and ignoring everyone else for fear of a DQ.

[Byronius Maximus]

LostDot did ok.
The GC / not GC categories take care of this. There's no prize money, none of this matters. LostDot have no obligations here, you just accept that they'll do their best. Riders share the responsibility; make it Very Easy for them to NOT penalise you.
Want company? Ride an Audax.
Want an honesty system? Ride a different event.

<Goes into hiding>

All that said, some of the absolute high points of the whole event were the brief interactions with other riders, whether that be riding together for a short period, or bumping into each other kebab shop or petrol station. Itd be really tragic if everyone ended up riding as if they were totally solo and ignoring everyone else for fear of a DQ.

Yeah, exactly this. I agree that Lostdot got the decision basically right (though I wonder if a time penalty rather than exclusion from GC would be more fitting) and it's in keeping with how people ought to understand the "riding solo" aspect of the rules. I'm not sure the extreme of acting as though there are no other riders around is what either they or riders want though.

As Matt says, if you want a truly shared experience then there are other types of events. The small interactions you have with riders on the road are special on this precisely because you spend so much time alone dealing with the route and your own demons, it's a nice little release when you bump into someone and can exchange a few words about it all. It's also what makes the finisher's party such a good way to end it as you can exchange war stories and get to know each other better.

But anyway, this is a bit of a side issue to what is a pretty special race. I find it impressive how they put together some of the parcours and the decisions they force riders into - the route between 4a and 4b being a particular example that I was unsure of right up until I had to commit.

Looking back, I find it hard to comprehend that all that different bits (the start in Geraardsbergen, rain and cold in the Alps, crazy Bosnian drivers, the killer hear further south) were all part of the same ride. It seems a lifetime ago I was riding up the Muur between those flaming torches!

[Frank9755]

Well done guys!  Enjoy the rest, and let the memories sort themselves out in your head!

Re interactions with other riders, it's surprising how strong a feeling of comradeship the shared experience can create, even if you only chat to someone for a couple of minutes on the road and have a beer with them at the end.  Because you know what they have experienced over the fortnight, you somehow feel really connected.  I agree it would be a big loss to remove this.

I agree that invoking Mike needs to be done with extreme care and ideally not at all by people who didn't know him.  Certainly he was very hot on rules and creating a fair race, in particular with no drafting or use of motorways.  However, it has been published that he and Anna had differences of opinion regarding the race, and it has gone in a different direction since his time.  However, it would doubtlessly have changed too if he had still been running it, so it's impossible to know how different it would be.

[Zed43]

Wondering, have the current organisers completed a TCR or similar themselves?

[quixoticgeek]

Wondering, have the current organisers completed a TCR or similar themselves?

Similar events. But not the event itself iirc.

J