Author Topic: Total Climb  (Read 3156 times)

megajoules expenditure

Total Climb
« on: 27 April, 2010, 08:38:44 pm »
Maybe I'm missing something but having not long purchased an Etrex Vista HCX.I so far haven't sussed how to read from the data the total climb for a track that I record on a ride? ::-)

Help!

Cheers

MJ

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #1 on: 27 April, 2010, 08:44:52 pm »
Load it into BikeHike or use GPSAltitudeChart

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #2 on: 27 April, 2010, 08:58:14 pm »
Or paste the track details into excel and use these forumulae pasted into columns L to P

=FIND(" m",C14)   =LEFT(C14,(L14-1))   =M14-M13   =IF(N14>0,N14,0)   =O14+P13

to take out the "m"s and disregard the minus figures - you'll get a cumilative total in column P.

I'm sure this is an extremely Luddite way of doing this, but it meant I didn't have to download anything and then work out how it works.

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #3 on: 27 April, 2010, 10:25:30 pm »
I'm sure this is an extremely Luddite way of doing this, but it meant I didn't have to download anything and then work out how it works.
It does assume one has Excel though. Nowt to download with BikeHike, one uploads the track.

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #4 on: 27 April, 2010, 11:11:03 pm »
That worked surprisingly well.  Thank you.

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #5 on: 27 April, 2010, 11:13:22 pm »
Mine's shown in the top left corner of the altitude screen. You might have to select which data fields you wish to be displayed, like on the map screen - can't remember for sure and the wife's sleeping with my Etrex (IYSWIM).

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #6 on: 27 April, 2010, 11:14:59 pm »
Don't count on the Excel figure as being true. It can over-read massively due to flutter.

There are a couple of threads concerning this in this forum somewhere...
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

simonp

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #7 on: 27 April, 2010, 11:15:04 pm »
Mine's shown in the top left corner of the altitude screen. You might have to select which data fields you wish to be displayed, like on the map screen - can't remember for sure and the wife's sleeping with my Etrex (IYSWIM).

I think this is after the fact and wanting to recover the total ascent from a previously completed ride.


Re: Total Climb
« Reply #8 on: 28 April, 2010, 01:31:55 am »
Don't count on the Excel figure as being true. It can over-read massively due to flutter.

There are a couple of threads concerning this in this forum somewhere...

Presumably bike hike flattens the outliers in the data, there are still some very strange spikes when you look at the gradient graph in bike hike.

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #9 on: 28 April, 2010, 10:07:36 am »
Don't count on the Excel figure as being true. It can over-read massively due to flutter.

There are a couple of threads concerning this in this forum somewhere...

Presumably bike hike flattens the outliers in the data, there are still some very strange spikes when you look at the gradient graph in bike hike.

Exactly. And the algorithm they use is far from perfect. On long rides it often smooths it out too much.

My GPX tracklog of a ride with ~8300m climbing comes out as 6569m when uploaded to bikehike.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Total Climb
« Reply #10 on: 28 April, 2010, 10:13:46 am »
how to read from the data the total climb for a track that I record on a ride? ::-)

Can of worms!  Stand back ...

There's this http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30923.0
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #11 on: 28 April, 2010, 10:28:37 am »
I'd recommend sporttrack for uploading the data - it will smooth the data and also store it if you wish to record your mileage ect. Great package and free (donation) software. It will also track the mileage of equipment which is handy.

megajoules expenditure

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #12 on: 28 April, 2010, 03:23:03 pm »
Perhaps it's easier just to ride the route again and this time remember to record the total climb from the GPS unit before I clear the tracklog 8)

At least I now know it's possible to do with a little effort

Cheers

Lucy.

how to read from the data the total climb for a track that I record on a ride? ::-)

Can of worms!  Stand back ...

There's this http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30923.0

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Total Climb
« Reply #13 on: 28 April, 2010, 06:03:49 pm »
Lucy if you have a copy of the GPX Validator widget that Danial is using for DIY validations - that shows total climb and is a nice little one-click pony.  (But it requires .NET to be installed which makes it no use to me.)

Otherwise GPSAltitudeChart mentioned above does the job - free download but requires Java to be installed.

But the problem is that the numbers you get must always be regarded as quite iffy.  If you do it for your daily work trip it would be interesting (well I think so!) to see how much variation you get.

Ignoring for the moment that you have a barometric GPS -
There is usually a big 'spike' associated with switch-on at the start of the day and if (like most people would do) you turn it on and set off on your ride almost immediately - it can take several minutes for the GPS altitude information to stabilise, even after your position on the map seems to be OK.   Subsequently various factors can cause further spikes (both up and down) which pass unnoticed while riding but may sometimes get written into the tracklog.  All these things would introduce errors into the total climb figure, I suppose tending to increase it.

The barometric GPS is supposed to improve the situation but I think its highly arguable whether it actually does.  It certainly smooths the spikes and it is the barometric altitude figure, not the GPS one, that gets written into the tracklog.
But the barometer has to be calibrated, so (with default settings) it does this automatically (using the GPS current best guess) at some point shortly after startup.  This is not good - because (as above) the altitude information takes a long time after startup to stabilise.  Then the barometer continues to auto-calibrate (every 15 minutes, according to Garmin) using the current GPS-derived figure.  Given that the whole point of the barometer is that it is deemed to be more accurate than the GPS, it seems a little odd to me that the (accurate) barometer is synched with the (inaccurate) GPS on such a frequent basis - if the GPS is truly that unreliable, each synch is going to introduce a step in the altitude plot.  These steps will again affect total climb calculations.

Personally I don't think the GPS-derived data is as bad as all that, and in fact I've turned the barometer off (that is, set it to 'stationary' mode, so it just acts like a weather barometer - which is itself quite useful on holiday) and prefer to just have the GPS data.  In this mode (but only this mode) the heights written into the tracklog are the GPS-derived ones.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: Total Climb
« Reply #14 on: 29 April, 2010, 03:29:30 pm »
I have a small script that does this the AAA way, I have just never came around polishing it and publishing it...
Chief cat entertainer.

red marley

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #15 on: 04 May, 2010, 05:42:07 pm »
Lucy if you have a copy of the GPX Validator widget that Danial is using for DIY validations - that shows total climb and is a nice little one-click pony.  (But it requires .NET to be installed which makes it no use to me.)

Can you or anyone provide details on how the validator works? By this I mean against what dataset(s) the GPX track is compared with rather than the ins and outs of the .NET stuff. Now that the Ordnance Survey OpenData initiative have released the 1:50k GB contours and the 50m DEM ("Panorama"), it should be reasonably straightforward way to provide a web service that produces both a contour counting and DEM derived climbing figures for any GPX track. The big advantage as I see it of the OS Panorama data is that this would provide a standard benchmark for recording elevation gain that is reasonably close to an intuitive feeling of difficulty. It has a more useful accuracy than common SRTM derived heights and isn't as scale-dependent as GPS derived height data (the more frequent the polling of position, the higher the apparent climb with direct height mesurement).

If you do it for your daily work trip it would be interesting (well I think so!) to see how much variation you get.

I know I've posted this link a few times in the past, but in for those who are interested in these things and haven't seen it, I once did an experiment.

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #16 on: 04 May, 2010, 05:58:37 pm »
Can you or anyone provide details on how the validator works?

AIUI it's just the elevations in the GPX file with controls for smoothing and removing obviously spurious points (petrol station canopies etc).

*awaits correction*

I haven't had a chance to look at the OS Panorama data yet, I'm itching to get my hands on the spot height data although I've got next to no free time in order to do much with it other than hack it in to my own scripts.

Eeek, 4.65GB for Land-Form Panorama!
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Total Climb
« Reply #17 on: 04 May, 2010, 11:20:41 pm »
To be fair this widget (used by Daniel and 1 or 2 others) was developed primarily to check that the GPX passes through the control points as specified, and within reasonable spec as per speeds and on-the-road speed vs terrain.  And no more than that.

To use it to validate AAA climbing is a rather big leap IMO (which is not to say it doesn't work, that just wasn't the original focus).
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

simonp

Re: Total Climb
« Reply #18 on: 05 May, 2010, 06:57:25 pm »
Istm that publishing the algorithm would be a damn fool thing to do.