Organising an Audax

[salar55]

Well looks like the West is out. Perhaps its too hard for some. Heard a story about Campbelltown everyone was out of time, and that was the 1st control.

[jsabine]

(or option 4, run them as group permanents with validation by GPS, which already exists in the regulations and is pretty close to what you're proposing)

Perm validation by GPS is fine and something we'd probably encourage more perm organisers to consider.

Group perms are also fine, but we wouldn't encourage people to view them as a means of running a disguised calendar event and circumventing the rules ... (If nothing else, it probably falls foul of the one about not taking the piss ...)

I don't think large-group DIY perms will take off, as the organiser can't recoup any costs from an Entry Fee. (... but perhaps there are independently wealthy AUK members with a lot of time, wanting to run paperless events, and to prove MattC wrong ...  )

But anyway; what harm do you think they might do? IAMFI!

I was thinking of organisers who, when they're told that a proposed event can't be accepted onto the calendar, decide they'll promote it as a group perm instead ...

More generally, some of the rules around risk assessments, controls, route integrity and the like have fairly solid justification for being applied to calendar events. Deciding to run a group perm as a means of avoiding those rules and reducing scrutiny or the opportunity for input is, um, sub-optimal.

(Not, of course, that I'm suggesting grahamparks was proposing that, or that salar55 would do that, or that group perms are a bad idea. And no, big ones probably aren't very likely.)

[Martin]

salar55; why don't you read the AUK Organisers' Guidelines instead of posting random stuff here? they are very informative and also there for a very good reason, we do provide events open to all members of the public including minors ETEOTD

(after all your OP was "Organising an Audax")

[salar55]

 Another question How does risk assessment work if audax allows free routes between controls. Not possible . Was that why secret/info controls were used.

[salar55]

Only trying to work out a way to make everyone cycle the same route. 

[jsabine]

Declare it to be a mandatory route event?

[LiamFitz]

Hm yes, I can remember a 200 organised by Rocco. At a certain moment there was an info question 'what's the colour of the building in the field on the right hand side'. Through the dense fog I could see a dark blob so I entered 'battleship grey'. This was accepted at the finish.

That was my first ever 200 in 2003 and you dragged me around!!!! There was three of us and we decided that if we all said the same thing no one was going to challenge us!

[jsabine]

Another question How does risk assessment work if audax allows free routes between controls. Not possible . Was that why secret/info controls were used.

You can risk assess your suggested, advisory, route. Infos help ensure riders pass through your designated control locations.

Secret controls are more relevant to mandatory routes, where you want to ensure riders are on the route at all times. (And the possibility of them may be as potent as the reality.)

[quixoticgeek]

Many (possibly most) rides have (sometimes many, but that’s another story) info controls, and whilst they are more unusual, secret controls still exist on some rides.

When did you last ride an Audax?

A Belgian BRM I did had both an info control, and a secret control (which I almost rode straight past).

Two of the Dutch BRM I have done had secret controls. One, a couple of weeks back had an info control about 3km into a 300km ride. This was I think, because they had updated the GPX a couple of weeks before due to a bridge being replaced, and having that secret control made a useful way of detecting those who hadn't got the new route. It was actually quite entertaining, at the front of the pack a TCRno5 veteran was putting on a hell of a pace into the wind, and a full on pace line of about 6 had formed behind her, I was the last ride, and was giving it my all to hang on the back, as I knew it would really help with the wind. Only we went over a bridge and all the riders between me and the lead rider turned left, and she and I went straight on, only I was now a good 10+ metres behind her, and that was it, she just headed off into the distance. I never saw the riders that had turned left, they missed the secret control, they didn't over take me, and I was one of the first to leave said control, so I'm guessing they missed it. Oops.

On one of the Dutch BRM's there was an info control something like "what is the name of the house at number 15?" Only we got to the location, and number 15 had no name, but number 19 did. We took photos of both, got to the Arrivé, and turned to the organisor "So did you mean 15 or 19?" "That proves you were there!" Saved me digging out my phone for the photo with the answer.

I must admit, as someone who primarily rides BRM's run by people in a language I am not that great with, info controls are not my favorite thing, I'd rather secret controls, tho I think some of the Dutch organisers need a bigger sign...

J

[quixoticgeek]

Was thinking about some out of Dumbarton . Old 90ies stuff  Otter ferry 200 Awesome 300 and the 400.
Sitting locked up in a car for hours in midge season at the top of a hill is not on.
A phone will last all day so garmin ,phone and small battery pack would work.

Some phones will last all day, I wouldn't say most will, you then run into the issue of keeping them dry etc... relying on smartphones is a Bad Idea™, IMHO.

sitting in a car on top of a hill in midge season doesn't sound like fun. But then cycling in midge season doesn't sound like fun either. I lost my lunch to a collision with a fly, which resulted in me being over time on my first 300.

J

[JohnL]

Another question How does risk assessment work if audax allows free routes between controls. Not possible . Was that why secret/info controls were used.

Why are you using past tense? Infos ARE used!! I’ve been thinking about this and I think I’ve done maybe two rides this season without infos.

John

[Delph Cyclist]

Another question How does risk assessment work if audax allows free routes between controls. Not possible . Was that why secret/info controls were used.

If your riders decide to use a more dangerous route than the one you suggest, then they are accessing their own risks.  They are grown ups, they can cycle where they want.  Even if they are on your specified route and it's a public road, then the local authority is responsible for the condition of the road and your cyclists are responsible for handling the conditions, as if they were on a private excursion.

Of course, if you send them down an unpleasant busy road, or one that has load of pot holes (if you can imagine such a scenario), you will still have to cope with your riders complaining about where you've sent them.  You can give them notes about particular roads or junctions that you think they should avoid, and that's something to note in the risk assessment.

[Exit Stage Left]

Quality control and Audax is an interesting area.

I have compared it to amateur dramatics. In the sense that reviews of performance can never be transparent. There's everything from the equivalent of a school nativity, to a near-professional offering.

Those on the inside know which end of that continuum an organiser is going to offer, and will make allowances. They also know the agenda of those involved in arguments like this one.

The best general guide is price. A basic event will be cheap, so make preparations based on that. Sampling some of the shorter rides by organisers gives an idea of what to expect. If you work up from a 200, a sketchily supported 600 or 1,000 doesn't come as a shock. That also applies to volunteering

The principal danger from increasing popularity is that the unwary get told that Audaxes are much better value than sportives, and then don't examine the price range of the rides on offer. They're also often panicked into booking onto something unsuitable because they've heard that events sell out quickly. That results in DNS's and DNF's.

Good quality controls relies on honest feedback. That's difficult in a voluntary setting. The most honest feedback comes from the naive, who don't know that you can only make vague allusions in a special code. That feedback is very direct, but is coloured by a lack of knowledge. They might complain that there was no broom-wagon for instance.

I've got an idea of what kind of ride Ronnie might put on. I'd base my expectations on that, and be surprised or disappointed by variation from that prejudice. But I'm not an active Audaxer at present. I wonder how many active riders have that level of knowledge?

Procedures have to fill that knowledge gap, so the question is how effective those procedures are.

[salar55]

 Audax is about i can do any route if i want between controls.. Are Sportives popular because its easy to compare yourself against others.
 Mandatory route , found one says you should follow the route. Whats going on? should it not say you must follow the route.
 

[FifeingEejit]

Dumbarton-Otter ferry sounds good but if the controls are chosen appropriately there isn't a huge number of roads to pick from; so if the aim to to force people to avoid the A82 Faslane surely provides plenty of Info control questions; although it may be advisable to wait until Garelochhead to stop and write the answer down.
Forcing the route up the old road at the Rest may be trickier.

[frankly frankie]

should it not say you must follow the route.

Because there can always be circumstances, on the day, which prevent a prescribed route from being viable at some point.  Road works etc.  And anyway everybody knows you are not going to police your own event for route infractions, so 'must' is pointless.

I think the best approach is to have in big bold type at the head of the routesheet: You should follow this route as closely as possible  and also make it known at the Start that there will be a secret control somewhere on the route.  (Personally I am deeply disapproving of 'virtual' secret controls - I once rode a 400 where the organiser at the start said loudly "there WILL be a secret control" - and of course there wasn't, and at the finish I gave him a real earful about it, 400km is a long way to brood about such things.)

[Ajax Bay]

Audax is about i can do any route if i want between controls.. Are Sportives popular because its easy to compare yourself against others.
 Mandatory route , found one says you should follow the route. Whats going on? should it not say you must follow the route.

Organisers carefully design routes and set controls which allow them to recommend a good route on roads which are attractive to ride on and don't pose a level of danger above the normal for public roads. Organisers' assessments of the thresholds for those factors varies. Nearly all rides under the auspices of Audax UK are ridden on 'advisory routes' and a few every year are designated 'mandatory routes' for example Undulates' Mille Cymru last weekend. From your OP it seems to me that you are keen to organise rides which visit scenery and advisory route status with multiple controls (some manned, some commercial, some info) would not achieve the aim. So just designate your routes as mandatory (as Mr Sabine has suggested above): those who chafe at the implied straightjacket can ride elsewhere.
From the Organisers' Handbook:
"Advisory routes must be of the correct distance, with no material shortcuts and without requiring
too many controls. Convoluted routes with excessive numbers of controls are inherently unsuitable
for Audax events."
Audax Uk Regulations:
"9.8.2 The controls are placed to ensure that the rider completes the validated distance.
"(c) Event routes set by the organiser are categorised as ‘advisory’ (riders may take any route between controls) or
‘mandatory’ (riders must follow the registered route).
"(d) Events with Mandatory routes may include unannounced controls and/or other measures to ensure riders follow the registered route."
"Unannounced" aka "secret" though I understand that if an organiser, having set a mandatory route, is going to deploy 'secret' controls they have to 'announce' the fact.
If, on a (normal) advisory route, I choose a variation to the recommended route, I am still enjoying my ride, though maybe not in company for that bit. I'm not comparing myself with other riders when I do a randonnee: I'm riding to complete a long ride which I've set out to complete, and hope for the bonus of company some of the way, good roads (and maybe a bit of off road), good weather and a tailwind all the way, and overall enjoyment (combination of the ride and the achievement). The same goes for a sportive: others may be pretending it's a race but I am not (nevertheless happy to take a wheel if suitable). Does that make sportives more popular - don't know. I think the supported nature of sportives is what makes them more popular to those who are less self-reliant (eta: and who assess that as good value for money which they have to spare). I suspect this issue has been done to death elsewhere.
If your route has enough climb it will earn riders AAA points. This has nothing to do with the options of mandatory and advisory.
As a (west coast) aside, last time I rode through Cambeltown was at 315k of Graeme's West Highlands and I was 8 hours 'in time', lunching (and then snoozing) in the excellent if busy Cafe Bluebell before a blast (all things are relative) north to Oban in sociable company.

[citoyen]

If I were to designate my route as mandatory, would I be able to do away with (some of) the info controls?

I would certainly prefer to have fewer info controls than I currently have - especially since most of them are to keep riders off horrible main roads that any sensible rider would avoid anyway.

[Manotea]

It's a good question best addressed on a case by case basis with your local events sec especially if your route has what I call 'marginal' infos, ie, Infos which only add a km or two between regular controls and there are no other considerations, ie  AAA points. One of my events had 3 of the buggers which cumulatively added <10km to the route but were required to ensure the route satisfied the shortest distance requirement. In future I'd look to declare the route mandatory and drop the infos. Riders would find it more trouble than its worth to look for shortcuts. In fact the same argument applies if the route was left as advisory but I'd rather make it clear what is expected, if only to stop folks dissing the event by banging on on social media - not here, obvs - about short cut opportunities missed by the Org.

[Ivo]

Using the landscape can prevent the use of info controls. On my old 600 I had a long stretch (nearly 200km) through the Mosel valley. This valley meanders along. According to the shortest distance rule a lot of info controls would be needed. Luckily it's not that strict overhere. I simply knew that no-one would take a shortcut twice, the steep hills out of the valley take care of this.

[Ben T]

I didn't think you could have a mandatory route calendar event, or can you now?

[mattc]

I didn't think you could have a mandatory route calendar event, or can you now?

A quick goggle search revealed a few e.g.
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/18-1000/

(I suspect that is the longest!)

[grams]

Yes, introduced at the same time as DIYs, but have been rarely if ever used until this year.

Anyone encountered a secret control yet? Anyone been refused validation for missing one?

(And how many controls are needed for one?)

[Thing2]

Yes, introduced at the same time as DIYs, but have been rarely if ever used until this year.

Anyone encountered a secret control yet? Anyone been refused validation for missing one?

(And how many controls are needed for one?)

There were a couple of secret controls on the MC1k last week. Very welcome they were too.

[citoyen]

It's a good question best addressed on a case by case basis with your local events sec especially if your route has what I call 'marginal' infos, ie, Infos which only add a km or two between regular controls and there are no other considerations, ie  AAA points.

Yes, this describes pretty much exactly the situation. The info controls are mainly there to encourage riders to take the nicer route rather than some 'orrible main roads. The route is slightly under-distance without them but not by much.