Author Topic: Model railway in a garage?  (Read 8653 times)

Martin

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #25 on: 09 February, 2017, 09:03:47 am »
My stuff stays outside all year...  I imagine even the locos would be fine, but my wooden rolling stock might get a bit seedy after a while.

Admittedly you certainly couldn't get my stuff in a garage, when curve radii are at least 2.5m, and my stuff creates the moisture, being steam powered, so a dehumidifier would be pretty pointless!

So, my advice, go up a scale or two!  Mine is 16mm/foot, by the way.

Hoping to help  ;D ;D

or not; your post makes no sense whatever and certainly doesn't answer my OP; if I wanted a Gauge 1 live steam layout I'd build one,
if I had a big garden, and lots of dosh which I don't!

Cheerful chap, aren't you?

a) you didn't read my post, 'cos it wasn't about gauge 1
b) No, it isn't necessarily expensive
c) As the rest of the responses were largely "humorous", mine was in the same vein.
d) Sometimes the answer is not "how do I do this", but "what could I do instead which gave me a suitable result" if the original premise just isn't workable.

Ok, apologies for my curt reply,

it may have been humerous but it wasn't helpful. The OP was about preserving a 20+ year old layout that I've put a lot of time and money into creating with associated landscape scenery scratchbuilt buildings etc. If I just wanted to run my 00 trains round I'd put some track down in the kitchen,

The "what could I do instead which gave me a suitable result" if the original premise just isn't workable is fast becoming moving the layout to another inside space elsewhere but this is very much a last option if the garage idea is a non starter.

Martin

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #26 on: 09 February, 2017, 09:10:11 am »
I'll look into the floor
A layer, or multiple layers, of plastic sheeting - 10 mil plus - lapped up the walls a bit - with a walking surface on top of that - could be just sheets of plywood - could deal with the "rising damp" from below.

the garage is less than 5 years old and built at the same time as the flat. Is it possible that something that new would have the damp floor defect? not doubting your knowledge it just seems odd. I've checked the walls and they have a DPC, would there not be one in the floor too? but as you say even moisture coming from the atmosphere will still find its way through the brickwork and tiles'

I remember a downstairs neighbour once who had a concrete screeded kitchen floor, some cowboy had put a long nail through it which had breached the vapour barrier and the damp level in the whole room was off the scale.

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #27 on: 09 February, 2017, 01:12:46 pm »
Pretty sure Moleman's in USAnia, where construction practices may vary ...

I'd expect there to be a damp-proof membrane in the floor, but anything's possible. Is this garage part of the flat building, or in a separate block? How well insulated are the roof and walls?

Short of insulating the whole thing, I reckon Tod28's idea might have legs - build a base and a top for the layout out of Kingspan, and keep the lowest power heater you can possibly find going in the new box.

Martin

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #28 on: 09 February, 2017, 03:46:34 pm »
Pretty sure Moleman's in USAnia, where construction practices may vary ...

I'd expect there to be a damp-proof membrane in the floor, but anything's possible. Is this garage part of the flat building, or in a separate block? How well insulated are the roof and walls?

Short of insulating the whole thing, I reckon Tod28's idea might have legs - build a base and a top for the layout out of Kingspan, and keep the lowest power heater you can possibly find going in the new box.

it gets more complicated; the layout started life in a spare bedroom (which became unspare a few months later thanks to Mr Stork) and was a table height oblong 10'6" x 6'6", but with a oblong hole in the middle for the operator to stand in, and has ended up being suspended in lofts ever since. It's also got a baseboard that's down a level to allow a river with bridges over (yeah one's the big Hornby suspension bridge!) and a tunnel section which needs hands sticking up into through holes underneath to clean the rails and retrieve derailed stock etc. If it gets as far as the garage the idea would be to put it safely out of harms way in the roof section and stand on a decorating platform to operate it,

in a nutshell not really that practical to hermetically seal.

as an aside is the possibility of renting a room on an office type room somewhere as there's a lot of other stuff that could do with being stored, but no idea what this would cost

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #29 on: 09 February, 2017, 03:55:15 pm »
Cover, heat, insulate

Heat rises. You don't need it to be hermetic. Air circulation is what prevents build up of condensation anyway.

You either have to keep it warm so the whole rig is always above the dew point, or seal it off. If it is warm, then you need air circulation to prevent mould from growing.
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Martin

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #30 on: 09 February, 2017, 04:27:33 pm »
So how much heat required to heat a non sealed (from the underneath at least) insulated volume of 13m3?

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #31 on: 09 February, 2017, 05:11:27 pm »
Depends on the ambient temperature.
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Kim

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Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #32 on: 09 February, 2017, 05:12:21 pm »
And the insulation.

Martin

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #33 on: 09 February, 2017, 05:55:24 pm »
well it would need to be something that was constantly on I don't think something on a timer will work;

so taking a 2.4kw under plinth heater that's £8.23 a day at today's electricity price. The dehumidifier is 425W and only on 8 hrs a day (it doesn't fill up the reservoir in that time)


Kim

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Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #34 on: 09 February, 2017, 05:58:30 pm »
Constantly on, but with a thermostat to turn it off when not needed.

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #35 on: 09 February, 2017, 09:52:06 pm »
well it would need to be something that was constantly on I don't think something on a timer will work;

so taking a 2.4kw under plinth heater that's £8.23 a day at today's electricity price. The dehumidifier is 425W and only on 8 hrs a day (it doesn't fill up the reservoir in that time)
I wouldn't expect you to need that much power, that would heat the whole garage! An oil-filled rad of a couple of hundred watts, if the table had a cloth going to the floor all round, combined with a thermo would keep the temp up nicely I think. But really this is not that easy to work out without knowing the ambient temp of your garage, how damp your air is etc.
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Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #36 on: 09 February, 2017, 10:57:01 pm »
FWIW a well-insulated space can be heated using something as feeble as a 40W light bulb.  For example an old fridge with a light bulb inside (controlled using a ~50C switch) can be used for clarifying 50lbs of honey at a time.

Some alternatives; greenhouse soil heaters will run from the mains and switch off above a preset temperature.  Or, run a length of nichrome wire along under all the tracks, so that they are heated more than the rest of the layout; this will stop the rails themselves from attracting condensation and going rusty. 

If there are tiny holes in the cover, the air will convect through and out automatically (stopping mould). Also if the holes in the base are simply covered with something like upholstery foam, this will suppress 'the wrong kind of convection' and will still allow a little air circulation. An easy way of arranging this is to cover the entire base in such foam; any holes can have plugs or flaps cut in the foam. Angled cuts for plugs or flaps allow them to be reinstalled when the layout is stored.

The other thing I would suggest is that (if possible) the whole layout is suspended from the roof on a rope and pulley system.  The idea would be that the layout (with its cover on) is lowered onto something (folding legs, or free-standing trestles), then the ropes are attached to the cover instead of the base, and the cover is then suspended whilst the layout is in use. This arrangement will also allow the cover to be lowered onto the layout overnight if required.

cheers

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #37 on: 10 February, 2017, 06:26:44 am »
Pretty sure Moleman's in USAnia, where construction practices may vary ...
I'd expect there to be a damp-proof membrane in the floor, but anything's possible. Is this garage part of the flat building, or in a separate block? How well insulated are the roof and walls?

Yes, I plead guilty to residence location as charged.  And, my long-windedness about commercial flooring failures over here comes from work as an architect and seeing grocery store flooring failures by the acre.

We have a garage which always has a damp concrete surface when it is moist outside (and, near Seattle, that is often) due to sub-slab moisture, because the contractor and concrete workers couldn't be bothered to put down the layer of plastic that my drawings clearly showed.

The "hang it from pulleys" idea was often done over here, by those who shared their model railroad space with a passenger motor vehicle.  Growing up, my same-age neighbor's Lionel 3-rail trains operated on a flat plywood prairie which was suspended from the garage roof, and had fold-down legs.  This would have the benefit of getting the layout up to the warmer (hot air rising by convection) area of Martin's garage.  The plastic cover idea, suggested elsewhere, could mitigate the inevitable accumulation of dust.

Can you rent a dehumidifier for a week or so and see how much moisture it collects?  That would give an idea of what capacity/rating to purchase, or even if it's a good idea; if possible, a unit that just drains to the outside would solve the "did I, or did I not, empty the collection vessel?" question.  Best would be if the trial week were a wet one outdoors, and not much water was collected ... would suggest not too big of an on-going problem.

You likely will want some heat in the garage when you are operating, of course.

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #38 on: 10 February, 2017, 06:50:31 am »
The only place I can put it (and probably in the loft area); problem is moisture, bought a dehumidifier which successfully extracts a few litres a day which is OK for bikes etc. I don't think the track or scenics will survive that sort of environment long term

would it be worth sealing the layout area off and using a smaller dehumidifier?

otherwise watch ebay for a 10'6" x 6'6" layout  :-\

Why not put it in the loft then?

I am in the final stages of converting my own loft.  Overall (with or without standing headroom, it's a big area of floor, much bigger than my garage.  With insulation and a velux it'll cost under £1000 (my labour).

It has the extra benefit of making the whole house more energy efficient.

Maybe next year I will convert my garage..  Thinking the floor will probably have insulation plus a damp proof membrane on top of the concrete.  The walls are dry.   
Move Faster and Bake Things

Martin

Re: Model railway in a garage?
« Reply #39 on: 10 February, 2017, 09:59:22 am »
The only place I can put it (and probably in the loft area); problem is moisture, bought a dehumidifier which successfully extracts a few litres a day which is OK for bikes etc. I don't think the track or scenics will survive that sort of environment long term

would it be worth sealing the layout area off and using a smaller dehumidifier?

otherwise watch ebay for a 10'6" x 6'6" layout  :-\

Why not put it in the loft then?


I no longer have a loft  :(

thanks for all the replies; it's not really practical to do anything other than have it permanently in the roof space of the garage; and not isolated from the rest of the building. I imagine damp would not be an issue in the summer, maybe I'll assemble it then and see what happens as it gets colder later in the year.

I'm much more tempted to find another indoor space but the only thing I can think of is to donate it to a community centre or something, certainly can't afford to rent a room anywhere.