Recommend a sleeping bag for Wales during January

[fruitcake]

I'll be sleeping in a tent in Welsh forest for two nights final weekend of January. Recommendations for winter sleeping bags wanted, and a bit of discussion of your recommendation would be great.

Bulk and weight are not a factor as we'll be travelling in the car. Either down or synthetic filling would be acceptable. I'm generally a side sleeper and have found side zip bags somewhat uncomfortable, although those were low quality sleeping bags with little filling. I'll be using a self inflating mat, and will have a wool blanket with me too.

[Kim]

Can't recommend specifically, because my favourite bag has been discontinued, but:

Down is warmer than synthetic, but doesn't respond well to getting wet.

Silk liners are utterly brilliant.

A surprising amount of heat is lost through the mat.  If you're in a car, you could do a lot worse than stick a closed cell foam mat under your self-inflating one for extra insulation.

[HeltorChasca]

Vango 900? http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango-ultralite-900-sleeping-bag-p196173 Bargain price for a 3 season bag. Synthetic rather than down. It's wet but mild in the woods in the South West. Much like Wales.

[Canardly]

Weather forecasts are a bit grim for coming week. Who knows what the end of the month will bring. Better over prepared than under with 4 season mountain bag or alternatively a 3 season with access to a bivi bag just in case. Vietnamese silk liners are as cheap as chips. That Vango is a real bargain but personally I like a little leg wriggle room due to night cramps.

[mike]

+1 for the second mat under your main mat. You can get double sized ones which are great if you're in a 2-man tent, it covers up the whole of the bottom so as you thrash about in the night you stay warm.

I've got an elasticated bag which is great for not feeling trapped.

[andrew_s]

The outlook, in so far as it means anything, is for zero to +5°.

A lighter self-inflating mat, with perforated foam, will be marginal, so an extra closed cell foam mat underneath would be handy. Unperforated foam (giving a smooth outside surface) is a bit warmer, probably sufficiently so.
Down bags should mostly have an EU rating these days, and anything that says -5° or colder for "Comfort" should be OK. With synthetic bags, it's mostly still the old "season" ratings, which could mean either 3 or 4 depending on how warm you sleep. There's a fair difference between people - a bag that one person finds barely adequate at 5 or 6° could be too warm for another person at -5°. Generally women want a warmer bag than men do.

Down bags don't like getting properly wet, though a bit of dampness doesn't matter much. They are lighter and pack smaller for the same weight, and generally last quite a lot longer.
Synthetic bags are cheaper, and will give some warmth even if saturated. Repeated packing into a stuff bag will harm the ability to puff up properly, so they don't last as long if used regularly. The last one I had went from about zero to about +8 in about 18 months of being used most weekends plus maybe 4 or 5 weeks of holiday.

For a down bag, I'd suggest an Alpkit Skyehigh 700, or maybe 500 if you figure you won't be a cold sleeper.
For synthetic, Heltor's seems as good as anything.

The main point of a liner is to keep the bag clean so you don't have to wash it. They don't do very much for extra warmth.

A thought:
Could you just pinch the duvet off the bed? The one I use (double layer 9 + 4.5 = 13.5 tog down/feather) would probably be OK for me.

[Jon P]

Take several bags and nest them

[bumper]

If you don't do much winter camping, use a duvet and blankets as Andrew suggests. You can even buy a cheap duvet if you don't want to use your bedding.

If I'm car camping there's always blankets, above and below me.

I too like to sleep on my side and front, I love a large rectangular bag. I have a massive down bag for car camping made by coleman, I don't use it when cycling because it's MASSIVE even when packed down (it's a duvet with a zip). I've looked and they no longer do it. If you really want a sleeping bag just buy a large/cheapish £50 job by coleman or outwell and take blankets. I've got a rab and alpkit mummy down bag but I hate them because I can't turn over in them, great for bike packing because they pack down well though.

[Kim]

I've got a rab and alpkit mummy down bag but I hate them because I can't turn over in them, great for bike packing because they pack down well though.

Mountain Equipment solved this problem with the Dreamcatcher: A not-quite rectangular down bag with an elasticated leg section that pulls it in to mummy shape (and warmth) by default, until you move your legs apart which it expands to accomodate.  This is utterly brilliant, particularly if you're a wriggler or have a knee that occasionally needs moving through its range of motion to stop it from hurting.  So naturally they stopped making them.   

[bumper]

So naturally they stopped making them.   

Typical.

All of their new bags are skinny fit mummy style. Even when bike packing in minus temps, I think it's the mummy bag restriction that ruins my sleep as much as the cold. Waking up in the morning with the bag on back to front and the hood over my face or twisted up unable to reach the zip is normal. How the hell do some people sleep on their back in one spot all night!

[Kim]

I'm working on the principle that when mine eventually wears out, and if nobody else has had the same idea, I'll suck it up and talk to PHD or someone about making a custom one.

[zigzag]

<...>How the hell do some people sleep on their back in one spot all night!

don't know how, but that's the way i sleep. fall asleep lying on my back, don't move over night, and wake up 6-7hrs later feeling fresh.
i'd like to tell people how it can be done if i knew myself..

[bumper]

<...>How the hell do some people sleep on their back in one spot all night!

don't know how, but that's the way i sleep. fall asleep lying on my back, don't move over night, and wake up 6-7hrs later feeling fresh.
i'd like to tell people how it can be done if i knew myself..

It'll be the half bottle of Whisky

[Veloman]

Take several bags and nest them

This. And clothes to wear too.

I have the best Rab bag that was available around the year 2000 and was sold as the one for use on Everest high camps. Best down available. But not good in the wet or in wet condensation ridden tents (we used them inside bivvy bag to protect against the moisture and also add extra warmth. But I would not use it for your requirement as probably too hot and risky wet.

Instead I would 'nest' bags within bags with a silk or fleece liner and sleep in thermals on nice thick sleeping mats or air bed with mat on top.

I recall some bags had centre zips to overcome the challenge of preferred sleeping side.

Finally, how much room in the tent? I know people take duvets to sleep on and to cover them thereby adding additional 'nesting'.  No need to get sleeping bag focuses when you have loads of room for transport.

[andrew_s]

I'm working on the principle that when mine eventually wears out, and if nobody else has had the same idea, I'll suck it up and talk to PHD or someone about making a custom one.

ME are still using elasticated stitching ("EXL", eg in Xero 550), but they are using it to reduce dead space inside the bag rather than allow a roomier fit without drawback (other than weight). If you grumble to them, there's a slight chance it may have some effect on new models before the current bag dies.

[fruitcake]

Thank you to everyone. Really useful replies. I'm now going to consider nesting the two polyester bags I already have. They are both two season bags, but one is narrower than the other, so should nest without comprising loft, and only the smaller of the two has  hood.  I'm also going to try incorporating the wool blanket or a thin synthetic duvet within the system, as void fill, and may get another blanket just in case. I have a one inch thick self inflating mat, but can borrow a two inch one. I guess two mats should insulate the bags from the ground. I may tape them together.

I haven't yet seen the tent, but I assume it's small. It belongs to my friend and it stays in the forest.

[HeltorChasca]

Good result. Tie or bungie your mats together. From bad experience, the tape glue can degrade your mats. (I was folding and taping down one end into a pillow) I guess even tear them when you peel it off. I was left with gunge on mine. Eeeeuuggghh.

[fruitcake]

OK. Good tip. I'll strap or tie the mats together then.

I'll dry run all this in the house. That way I'll see if it actually works.

[fhills]

Generally women want a warmer bag than men do.

Without wanting to set off one of those fearsome yacf gender threads, any theories as to why this is?

[fhills]

Vango 900? http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango-ultralite-900-sleeping-bag-p196173 Bargain price for a 3 season bag. Synthetic rather than down. It's wet but mild in the woods in the South West. Much like Wales.

Does look interesting and I think I have seen it in my forays into that shop - i have one of their oddball cards. Do you have personal experience of it though? I ask as there are some comments/reviews about some of its users being cold.

[Jakob W]

Generally women want a warmer bag than men do.

Without wanting to set off one of those fearsome yacf gender threads, any theories as to why this is?

Don't men generally have a slightly higher body temperature than women? On average they'll have a higher basal metabolic rate, if only because they're slightly larger - the square/cube law would mean this gives a higher body temperature, all else being equal...

[fhills]

Don't men generally have a slightly higher body temperature than women?

Thanks for the reply, but doesn't that make retaining that temperature, in the face of surrounding cold air, more of a problem? Ie - i had the idea that if you/a creature wanted to stay feeling "warm" /comfortable in the cold it is better to be cold blooded.

[Canardly]

Taking me back to long forgotten text books. The thermal comfort range differs slightly twixt M and F for a given RH.

[Jakob W]

Don't men generally have a slightly higher body temperature than women?

Thanks for the reply, but doesn't that make retaining that temperature, in the face of surrounding cold air, more of a problem? Ie - i had the idea that if you/a creature wanted to stay feeling "warm" /comfortable in the cold it is better to be cold blooded.

Oh, I see - reasoning backwards, my guess would be that because of the square/cube law men need raise their metabolic rate proportionally less than women to maintain thermal equilibrium. But it's honestly so long since I did any kind of heat transfer calculation that that's a handwavy guess more than anything.

[Kim]

Anecdotally, half the challenge is getting to the point of equilibrium in the first place.  When I'm camping in cold conditions, I've got plenty of lardy bits which, while evidently^[1] helpful for maintaining core temperature when up and about, have to be warmed before I stop feeling cold in a sleeping bag.  At first I tend to feel *colder* as the circulation returns to these areas.  (This is partially a technique thing:  Get in the bag and read a book or faff with your Garmin or tidy your pannier or whatever for a bit to keep your metabolic rate up until you're warm, and only then attempt to sleep.)

Beyond the obvious, perfectly sensible, difference in height, I believe women's bags tend to insulate the foot area more heavily.  I'm not sure how evidence-based that actually is.  Personally, while my feet are almost permanently cold, warming them up isn't required for a good night's sleep.


_{[1] Judging by how much warm clothing I prefer not to wear when riding a bike, compared to other people.}