[LEL17] Waiting list 100 hours

[Ben T]

I put myself down for the waiting list and got  an email  saying "On 5 February 2017, we will contact you to ask whether or not you would be willing to take a 100-hour time limit slot. These will be the only slots available to you."

Does this mean these will be the only available slots on 5th feb 2017, or the only available slots ever?, i.e. do I have the option of holding out for a 'normal' (116 hour) place in the hope that somebody pulls out and wants to sell on their place later?

The other thing I'm considering - since I'm not overly bothered about the 14 points (we're not playing for a row of houses ), simply enter anyway but not bust a gut to get under 100 hours - if I do this will I be not allowed food at later controls if I'm considered 'out of time' or otherwise disadvantaged? I'm presuming they'll still be open as I guess 100 hour riders start earlier in the morning e.g. 6-8am?

[Fidgetbuzz]

I am fairly sure that this would be Danials answer .. but he is travelling back from US over the weekend

1 To take up a 100 hour offer .. you are going to have to prove that you are capable of it   ie having done a 80 hour PBP for example. If we do not have that verification of your ability .. these few places could be taken by someone taking a place and then drifting back into the main pack of riders .. so not helping the controls at all .. just an extra body to handle when busy.  So if 100hour or damn close is not what you can prove you can do .. I very much doubt that even if you asked , you would get a place

2 I think we have moved away from our original plan of "one out .. offer to next on waiting list " .. too much admin work .. and potentially having extra problems as next on waiting list says ..  Sorry made alternative plans

3 I believe that we have already made an estimate of our view of the number that will drop out .. and already offered these  places to the priority that DW had put on facebook .. ie missing tandem riders , missing partners, ladies etc etc

4 i think  that there will be no further offer of the 116 hours .. we are already quite some way over 1500 .. relying on our estimate of non starters to bring the actual starters back to 1500.

BUT .. this is my input .. Danial is the boss and he may choose to do different.

[Ben T]

you are going to have to prove that you are capable of it   ie having done a 80 hour PBP for example

I did a 69 hour PBP once, whether I could now I'm not sure 

2 I think we have moved away from our original plan of "one out .. offer to next on waiting list " .. too much admin work .. and potentially having extra problems as next on waiting list says ..  Sorry made alternative plans

Looking at it from the other perspective, if I was someone who has signed up but now (i.e. in a few months) can't make it and wants to take up the offer of 'we will try to sell your [116 hour] place', who would it be being sold to?

[Fidgetbuzz]

I think that you would get your money back less the £50 admin  charge .. so long as you cancel before we would have stopped doing the one out, one in .. date would have been end May i think .. so opt out up to then and we have already done the one out , one in bit for you. Beyond end May  .. there would have been no right to a refund.

[alwyn]

As Roger states above, we've already decided to overbook and let the field whittle down through cancellations. With that approach we have about 120 places to offer at our discretion.

When considering who to pluck from the waiting list and offer a place to, the team have been quite clear that we want to use this opportunity to make the field as diverse as possible. With that in mind we've already offered about 60 places to people who met certain criteria.

Some of the rest I will use to fill slots that I suspect will be in less demand. As Ben points out, it would be very easy for someone to take an early slot and just ride, deciding that the opportunity to ride is more important than having the ride validated. So I'm likely to look for evidence of recent fast speeds and a willingness to achieve a faster time. Some might bridle at that and find it elitist, but I have to ensure a smooth event and part of that is having as smooth a flow of riders through controls as is possible. If that means prioritising places for faster riders, so be it.

[vorsprung]

The other thing I'm considering - since I'm not overly bothered about the 14 points (we're not playing for a row of houses ), simply enter anyway but not bust a gut to get under 100 hours - if I do this will I be not allowed food at later controls if I'm considered 'out of time' or otherwise disadvantaged? I'm presuming they'll still be open as I guess 100 hour riders start earlier in the morning e.g. 6-8am?

The controls will be open for the riders who started at 16:30 ( 10 hours later ) so you could possibly loose quite a lot of time and still find open controls
If you have entered and are behind time but the control is still open then the people running it will generally be helpful and you will get food etc
If the control is shut for all then that's a different story

If the weather is good then even if you would find 100 hours a stretch you might just do it

I have done the sums and I could do it in 100 hours under good conditions.  However, it's much easier to get more sleep and take 105 hours

[Fidgetbuzz]

these 100 hour places are for a few people who will genuinely aim to finish under 100 hours .. outside that by even a smidgeon .. no validation. They are not meant to be a back door slip in route for someone who says well I am in now .. so let me trundle along while all the controls are open and I will be OK for TLC . Taking 110.. 115 hours will be an abuse of the intention of the offer and of the controls and volunteers who are already handling a 50% increase on 2013.

[inappropriate_bike]

Will a fast time from a 200k like the Ditching Devil or the Shark or a solo DIY400 be enough to ask for a 100hr slot?

[Fidgetbuzz]

Pass .. you have to convince Danial .. no hurry . he will only be back in LEL mode mid next week .. and even then sorting out fast 100 hour guys might not be top of the pile

[Phil W]

Looking at the calibre of some of the riders who have approached us about the 100 hour groups. You had better be confident of your credentials. There's some rather good CVs in there. As Roger says, patience we have some priorities to sort out ahead of the 100 hour slots.

[Ben T]

I have done the sums and I could do it in 100 hours under good conditions.  However, it's much easier to get more sleep and take 105 hours

Exactly that - it's not whether I could do it, I'm sure I could if I wanted, it's whether I could be bothered. Would just be more pleasant to have more sleep.

I'm up front about it, I'm not going to 'con' my way in on the pretext of doing a sub-100 hour ride, when I probably don't intend to unless I get behind fast groups all the way and keep waking up early. I was just wondering whether the attitude is, yeah that's fine as long as you don't expect your 14 points and a medal, or no we'd really rather you didn't.

The only thing that made me curious was the fact that the email suggesting that was the only option, ever, was at odds with the idea that anyone deciding to pull out could sell their place. The only way these things could both be true is if rescinded 116 hour places were all sold as 100 hour places, or if no-one actually is going to be able to sell their place because the number of places needs to reduce.

[Phil W]

No one pulling out can sell their place, it is non transferable. Should you apply for and we offer you a 100 hour slot, and you accept it (and pay)  then you will no longer be on the waiting list.  Should someone pull out, who has a 116:40 slot. We may or may not offer that to someone on the waiting list. Since you'd no longer be on the waiting list, you wouldn't be eligible for that slot..  So if you're keen for a 116:40 slot your best bet is to remain in the waiting list and not grab a 100 hour slot.

[Fidgetbuzz]

Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out,  after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place.  I do accept that if we  have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that  we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility  .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough  money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000

[mattc]

I have done the sums and I could do it in 100 hours under good conditions.  However, it's much easier to get more sleep and take 105 hours

Exactly that - it's not whether I could do it, I'm sure I could if I wanted, it's whether I could be bothered. Would just be more pleasant to have more sleep.

I'm up front about it, I'm not going to 'con' my way in on the pretext of doing a sub-100 hour ride, when I probably don't intend to unless I get behind fast groups all the way and keep waking up early. I was just wondering whether the attitude is, yeah that's fine as long as you don't expect your 14 points and a medal, or no we'd really rather you didn't.

[My bold]

Worth asking the question IMO. 

There may be riders thinking of "conning their way in", so any clarification from the organisers could be beneficial to everyone.

[Fidgetbuzz]

Copied from early in this thread  ..

1 To take up a 100 hour offer .. you are going to have to prove that you are capable of it   ie having done a 80 hour PBP for example. If we do not have that verification of your ability .. these few places could be taken by someone taking a place and then drifting back into the main pack of riders .. so not helping the controls at all .. just an extra body to handle when busy.  So if 100hour or damn close is not what you can prove you can do .. I very much doubt that even if you asked , you would get a place

Quite clear .. you have to convince Danial that you are both capable and intend to ride a sub 100 hour.

[Ben T]

No one pulling out can sell their place, it is non transferable.

That seems to contradict the website which says:
"we will run a waiting list of people who want to sell their place...If we are able to sell your place ...we will refund your entry fee minus a fee of £50"

Should you apply for and we offer you a 100 hour slot, and you accept it (and pay)  then you will no longer be on the waiting list.  Should someone pull out, who has a 116:40 slot. We may or may not offer that to someone on the waiting list. Since you'd no longer be on the waiting list, you wouldn't be eligible for that slot..  So if you're keen for a 116:40 slot your best bet is to remain in the waiting list and not grab a 100 hour slot.

That's exactly what I thought.... but the text of the email "...a 100-hour time limit slot. These will be the only slots available to you" seems to contradict that.

[Ben T]

Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out,  after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place.  I do accept that if we  have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that  we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility  .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough  money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000

Ah, I see, they're already sold - and you therefore want people to drop out. Well, I guess being on the waiting list means that then, hoping you've underestimated the drop out.

My only basis for thinking you will is based on 2013 experience when I was offered a place on the waiting list in about march or april time, but who knows.

[LMT]

Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out,  after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place.  I do accept that if we  have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that  we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility  .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough  money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

[αdαmsκι]

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

And I don't agree with you constantly complaining at the people who are running; you clearly think LEL is crap and I cannot understand why you've even bothered to enter in the first place. Anyway, onto ignore we go.

[Somnolent]

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

The rules (and the £50 deduction if you changed your mind) were quite clear to those entering BEFORE they stumped up their money.
What the organisers could not predict BEFORE the event went on sale is the numbers wanting to enter.   
With the massive demand, there has been a decision to oversell and give the maximum number of people their opportunity to participate, knowing that there would always be a %age drop-out.
Perhaps, having got your own entry, you'd rather there were more disappointed people out there?

As for the extra £ - no doubt any surplus will go to being the seed-money for 2021, it's not like it's going into the organiser's (or AUK's) pockets.

[Ben T]

Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out,  after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place.  I do accept that if we  have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that  we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility  .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough  money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

For a start, surely as a rider you would want the numbers riding to be as high as possible.
I damn sure wouldn't even consider LEL if the predicted number of riders was say 50... so I don't know why you're complaining that it's oversubscribed as that'll mean more people's company, more friends to make, more groups to draft, generally bigger event, etc.

The only way you would have a valid beef with the model is if they could potentially turn you away even having booked, like a hotel might, but I'm fairly sure that won't happen.

So are you basically saying you now don't want to ride, but you're going to put yourself through 1,400km of pain anyway purely because you don't want "them" to have made a £50 admin fee out of you ? 

[Wycombewheeler]

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

And I don't agree with you constantly complaining at the people who are running; you clearly think LEL is crap and I cannot understand why you've even bothered to enter in the first place. Anyway, onto ignore we go.

1) most audax rides are non refundable so they are already being generous
2) if they don't resell the first 100 drop outs it's because they have in effect already re-sold them.
3) if they have overestimated the drop out rate they will honour the place

I don't see a problem here. Better than them not overselling and then not being able to find buyers for late drop outs and losing all the money.

[αdαmsκι]

Here's a solution,

LMT withdraws from LEL and gets his entry fee refunded, less £50.

A gofundme page is set up to rise the missing £50 for LMT.

People chip in, say, 50 pence and the missing £50 is raised.

That modest contribution to the gofundme page means no one needs to hear any more whinging from LMT about an event he clearly doesn't want to ride.

[LMT]

Here's a solution,

LMT withdraws from LEL and gets his entry fee refunded, less £50.

A gofundme page is set up to rise the missing £50 for LMT.

People chip in, say, 50 pence and the missing £50 is raised.

That modest contribution to the gofundme page means no one needs to hear any more whinging from LMT about an event he clearly doesn't want to ride.

Thanks for the thought, I'm touched.

You are wrong of course about me not wanting to ride but hey ho!

[LMT]

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

The rules (and the £50 deduction if you changed your mind) were quite clear to those entering BEFORE they stumped up their money.
What the organisers could not predict BEFORE the event went on sale is the numbers wanting to enter.   
With the massive demand, there has been a decision to oversell and give the maximum number of people their opportunity to participate, knowing that there would always be a %age drop-out.
Perhaps, having got your own entry, you'd rather there were more disappointed people out there?

As for the extra £ - no doubt any surplus will go to being the seed-money for 2021, it's not like it's going into the organiser's (or AUK's) pockets.

Surely with the demand that was seen four year ago, and the increase in 'adventure cycling' over the last couple of years with longer rides/races getting more exposure one could see that this event would end up over subscribed?

And TBH I have no empathy regarding those that did not get a place. IIRC the website went up a while ago, it was explicitly stated that if you were a member of AUK at a certain time then you would get a place. With a wee bit of planning and foresight it would not be difficult to get a place.