Author Topic: [LEL17] Managing the spikes at controls  (Read 33380 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #100 on: 09 August, 2017, 12:33:29 pm »
It works on PBP*, so I don't think it's right to rule out permanently.
*[to be precise, you pay for each bed you use en-route].

Yes of course it is extra work during the event - everything has its drawbacks. But it could be quite a simple system;
You want to come into the dorm? Show me your bed ticket.

We already have a 2-tier event (as do most 1000k+ rides); some riders booked hotels every night. It's well known that audaxers come in gnarly and soft flavours :P
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Ben T

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #101 on: 09 August, 2017, 12:44:35 pm »
4 Volunteers. Known to be really rewarding as a task .. but also incredibly hard work .. I dont think there is a bigger pool available .. we would have taken more this time if we could find them


Possibly suggest that controls should allow (promote, even) the ability to volunteer for just one day, or even a few hours.
I would have volunteered but when I emailed I got the impression that they wanted you for the whole week or not at all, well - if you don't get paid for holidays or have limited annual leave you can see how that's a problem for quite a lot of people who would otherwise quite like volunteering.

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #102 on: 09 August, 2017, 12:46:41 pm »
What about additional sleeping facilities in Marqee's in a field along the route between controls? Just beds and portaloo's, no other facilities.
Find a field next to the route, exactly by the road, with a gate to get in and out on to that road.
Rent it from the farmer who, for some inexplicable reason, is not using it.
Shift all the cow shit off.
Put up crowd control barriers for bike parking.
Find volunteers to man bike parking.
Pay a marquee company to put up aforesaid marquee.
Consult weather forecast, pray for no wind.
Consult weather forecast, realise it might rain. Pay marquee company to come back and lay flooring so beds are out of the waterlogged ground.
Pay portaloo company to put up portaloos.
Find a volunteer to ensure loos have paper.
Find another volunteer to take over when volunteer A sleeps.
Hire van to get volunteers to and from the nearby school used as a control so they can sleep/wash etc.
Find volunteer to drive van.

Ain't gonna happen.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #103 on: 09 August, 2017, 12:48:00 pm »
What about additional sleeping facilities in Marqee's in a field along the route between controls? Just beds and portaloo's, no other facilities.
Find a field next to the route, exactly by the road, with a gate to get in and out on to that road.
Rent it from the farmer who, for some inexplicable reason, is not using it.
Shift all the cow shit off.
Put up crowd control barriers for bike parking.
Find volunteers to man bike parking.
Pay a marquee company to put up aforesaid marquee.
Consult weather forecast, pray for no wind.
Consult weather forecast, realise it might rain. Pay marquee company to come back and lay flooring so beds are out of the waterlogged ground.
Pay portaloo company to put up portaloos.
Find a volunteer to ensure loos have paper.
Find another volunteer to take over when volunteer A sleeps.
Hire van to get volunteers to and from the nearby school used as a control so they can sleep/wash etc.
Find volunteer to drive van.

Ain't gonna happen.

Just a thought!

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #104 on: 09 August, 2017, 12:50:53 pm »
the ability to volunteer for just one day, or even a few hours.
Loads of people volunteered at Loughton for one day or one morning. Loads. Many stayed for longer, and I did three days at Loughton then on the train to Scotland for three days at Moffatt, then Eskdalemuir, then on the train back to Loughton. A week in all. But you have just helped out when you could.
At Moffatt I got talking to an elderly couple who were camped nearby to wave to their son as he passed:  they ended up volunteering and wearing the t shirt and staying all night, doing a shift of almost 24 hours. You could have helped for a short time if you'd wanted to.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #105 on: 09 August, 2017, 01:17:19 pm »
The volunteer registration page gave a set of ticky boxes where you could specify which days you were available, and which controls you could  get to.  Some of the "one way" controls in Scotland had relatively short opening times - Moffat for example would have officially opened about 21 hours after the fisrt riders set off, so in the very early hours of Monday, and closed about 53 hours after the last lot set off at 4pm so some time on Tuesday evening. 

ETA - and I'd reiterate a point made somewhere by another poster, that it isn't just about the number of volunteers that you can rustle up, it also really matters who those volunteers are. 

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #106 on: 27 August, 2017, 05:21:02 pm »
At St Ives the food preparation area looked out onto the bike racks.  Although this was fortuitous (not part of the intention) it meant that I could see a bunch of 30 riders arriving and divert as many hands as possible to the food service point and pause their food preparation activities.

That sounds like something that CCTV could provide at other controls.

Also, I wonder if a computer connected to a CCTV feed of a control entrance could be made to give a reasonably accurate count of people on bikes going in and out.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #107 on: 28 August, 2017, 02:39:16 pm »
Now I've had time to reflect, my thoughts on Louth are unchanged from the end of the event.

I'm pretty certain I know what went wrong at Louth, and to a lesser extent in Spalding. Happily, there's nothing there that cannot be fixed easily.

Louth is the only control that got swamped. Brampton got busy, but only Louth ran out of space. This was always my fear with Louth, but I was actually much more worried about the southbound traffic than the northbound.

Where I went wrong was spacing the riders out until 4pm, and leaving a gap between 8 and 9. If I had shifted 150-200 riders from starting at 3-4 to 8-9, most of those riders would have made it to Pocklington, where I had an extra sports hall almost empty. At Louth they estimate they were about 60 beds short, which is unfortunate but not a total disaster. Happily the school is building an extra sports hall next year, solving that problem.

What I also did wrong was underestimate the leg between Louth and Pocklington. I've ridden the route loads, but always split at Hessle, as that's where I usually get the train to to test the route around there. Again, I think this is easily fixed by putting some refreshment facility at the bridge. The Humber Bridge authority have a new events person, who is keen to work with events like LEL, and I think they would be up for letting us do something like this. I had tried to book the village hall in Swanland but they pulled out - I can always try again in 2021.

Finally, the caterer at Spalding and Louth was not up to the job. He was by far my most expensive English caterer, came with references and was excellent at devising and costing menus. I interviewed him and he was very, very plausible. As soon as I paid a deposit though, things started to go wrong. He wanted the full payment upfront, almost four months before the event, which alarmed FB and me hugely. Then came a mysterious VAT demand, which vanished as soon as it appeared. Then I had mobile bar companies asking to confirm their hire, which the caterer had booked but then emphatically denied he had. We were committed by then and I must confess I froze when confronted with the risk that he might never turn up.

I understand that the chefs at Spalding were great, even if the caterer hadn't ordered enough food. At Louth it was a different story. Only one proper chef turned up, bolstered by a couple of the caterer's family. We had paid for about five staff members for each control. The family members did hardly any work, were rude to riders, and committed food hygiene breaches that alarmed the controller enough to put someone else in charge temporarily. They had clearly failed to order enough food, wasted money on unwanted frippery, and cooked tiny portions of relatively expensive ingredients when I had briefed, again and again, of the need to provide big, big portions and to assume that everyone would eat seconds. Needless to say, the caterers wanted still more money after the event. I have refused to speak to them, and if I thought they had any money I would sue them.

So yes, heading north Louth was way, way below what I would have wanted to happen. The controller remains very upset at the failure, which was obviously not his fault. I am still mortified that it marred what I think was an otherwise pretty smooth event. Happily, I'm certain that we can fix things for next time - the school are very keen to be part of LEL2021, and this time they will cater for us. This is great, because the schools are generally very good at it.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #108 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:12:44 pm »
These things happen. Look at the pre-departure meal at PBP. The velodrome caterer came up with conference finger food, which was very nice, but it ran out in short order. I'm sure there were strong assurances prior to the event.

Brampton had a giant 24 hour Tesco 10 miles away. They made numerous trips there for milk, which was being consumed in large quantities. I've seen references to riders putting milk from their bottles into the coffee and tea that Drew was serving on Yad Moss, which might explain something.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #109 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:18:47 pm »
I had more than a few volunteers and riders complain about the behaviour of some riders in canteens. More than a few riders are prone to piling their plates with obscene amounts of food, only to bin much of it 15 minutes later.

Louth aside though, we estimated the food far better than in 2013. I've only had one bill for extra food this time; I had half a dozen in 2013. I slashed my food order for Loughton because I'd over-ordered.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #110 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:27:37 pm »
Louth was more than 60 beds short. They were limiting riders to no more than 3 hours bed booking from before midnight. Having booked a bed as soon as I arrived and then waiting in the food line for 45 minutes and then eating, my sleep stop was much shorter than I'd planned. Given the chance, another 2-3 hours sleep would have made the next few days much easier. I kept falling short of my planned sleep stops for the rest of the ride because I was falling asleep very early in the evenings.

I notice that there were more riders with dodgy digestion than is normal on long brevets. Virtually all of the affected ones I spoke to had eaten (a bit) and slept at Louth northbound. Many of them would have had main meals at Spalding.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #111 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:37:06 pm »
I had more than a few volunteers and riders complain about the behaviour of some riders in canteens. More than a few riders are prone to piling their plates with obscene amounts of food, only to bin much of it 15 minutes later.

If you weren't allowed to go back for seconds and didn't know what or how much your tummy would accept, what would you do?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #112 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:46:51 pm »
Virtually every rider eats at virtually every control, and given the incubation period for these things it would be impossible to ascribe symptoms to a single control.

Given the numbers at the control at the time, and the number of beds the control had, 60 looks about right. I'm going to trust my controllers on this one and resist the allure of anecdata. It's a moot point though, because the capacity at the control will increase 50% for 2021 and I would expect the demand to be lower with different start times.

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #113 on: 28 August, 2017, 03:57:06 pm »
I notice that there were more riders with dodgy digestion than is normal on long brevets.
My experience at Loughton for the first three days, Moffat for two night and days and Eskdalemuir for two days then back to the finish: I spoke to hundreds of riders. Not one mentioned upset tummy.
After the wet PBP there were many riders who blamed the agricultural state of French roads and thus the certainty of having cow poo on your water bottle, which you then drank from. Hence the upset tummies. (Many riders use the Halfords water bottle with the little plastic cover for the spout. I remove the top and drink from the bottle.) But I reckon it was more to do with stress and lack of personal hygiene when under pressure.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #114 on: 28 August, 2017, 04:00:11 pm »
I had a cluster of reports of food poisoning, but they were from a control further north. I disregarded them because food poisoning doesn't happen three hours after you eat.

I also had a few complaints of foul-tasting water in Brampton. There was apparently a problem with the water supply in the town, which had tainted the water. The water was safe, but unpleasant to drink.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #115 on: 28 August, 2017, 04:03:28 pm »
I had more than a few volunteers and riders complain about the behaviour of some riders in canteens. More than a few riders are prone to piling their plates with obscene amounts of food, only to bin much of it 15 minutes later.

Louth aside though, we estimated the food far better than in 2013. I've only had one bill for extra food this time; I had half a dozen in 2013. I slashed my food order for Loughton because I'd over-ordered.

TBH the same thing happens at PBP, even when they're paying, especially at the early controls before they get a handle on how much they want. I generally hoovered up any surplus food on the tables at Mortagne. It saved queuing, money and waste. I like to be as 'green' as possible, and I'm not fastidious.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #116 on: 28 August, 2017, 04:06:03 pm »
Indeed. Crucially, almost every control accounted for this, this time.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #117 on: 28 August, 2017, 04:13:26 pm »
I notice that there were more riders with dodgy digestion than is normal on long brevets.
My experience at Loughton for the first three days, Moffat for two night and days and Eskdalemuir for two days then back to the finish: I spoke to hundreds of riders. Not one mentioned upset tummy.
After the wet PBP there were many riders who blamed the agricultural state of French roads and thus the certainty of having cow poo on your water bottle, which you then drank from. Hence the upset tummies. (Many riders use the Halfords water bottle with the little plastic cover for the spout. I remove the top and drink from the bottle.) But I reckon it was more to do with stress and lack of personal hygiene when under pressure.

We'll agree to differ then. I'll stick with anecdata conversations with the riders who were travelling at about my average speed.

I rode PBP07, amongst a couple of dozen 1000+km brevets. Stress during long brevets doesn't really come into it for me nowadays.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #118 on: 28 August, 2017, 07:32:11 pm »

Where I went wrong was spacing the riders out until 4pm, and leaving a gap between 8 and 9. If I had shifted 150-200 riders from starting at 3-4 to 8-9, most of those riders would have made it to Pocklington, where I had an extra sports hall almost empty. At Louth they estimate they were about 60 beds short, which is unfortunate but not a total disaster. Happily the school is building an extra sports hall next year, solving that problem.

What I also did wrong was underestimate the leg between Louth and Pocklington. I've ridden the route loads, but always split at Hessle, as that's where I usually get the train to to test the route around there. Again, I think this is easily fixed by putting some refreshment facility at the bridge. The Humber Bridge authority have a new events person, who is keen to work with events like LEL, and I think they would be up for letting us do something like this. I had tried to book the village hall in Swanland but they pulled out - I can always try again in 2021.


we used 15 beds in the extra sleeping area at Pocklington, which was at about 4:30 at 5:00 we had approx 80-90 beds empty in the main sleep area.

Instead of using humber bridge for a refreshment stop would be worth looking at putting a sleep in at Barton, looks like there is a primary school Castledyke on Castledyke way just off the route in the middle of barton approx 60km from Louth 40km from Pocklington

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #119 on: 28 August, 2017, 08:49:35 pm »
I also had a few complaints of foul-tasting water in Brampton. There was apparently a problem with the water supply in the town, which had tainted the water. The water was safe, but unpleasant to drink.

Same problem happened in BC. Riders complained about foul-tasting water at the tap outside of the school. Then, they came back in the dining room, filled their bottles at the water cooling machine, and never complained again. Actually, it was the same water. The cold temperature made the foul taste undetectable.

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #120 on: 28 August, 2017, 09:02:59 pm »
I was told by a couple of people that the BC water was tasting funny having come through a long hose.  (I think it was BC, the memory is a bit addled) . Personally i found all water fine and never noticed any problems.

the straggler

  • ACME Award Recipient & ROTY 2021
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #121 on: 28 August, 2017, 09:34:47 pm »
I used the outside water taps at Brampton control to fill 1 drinks bottle and too noticed the odd taste and assumed it must some form of water treatment agent. I did not experience any ill effects.

On leaving St Ives control heading north bound, I picked up a flapjack to use as a mid ride snack in between controls. I found this to be a good idea. I noticed that not every control provided this option. Where controls are experiencing shortage or delays in providing meals, perhaps provision of  cereal bars could enable a rider to progress to next control or at least sustain them to a convenience store etc on route. That is one mistake I made in not ensuring I was carrying enough snacks to nibble in between controls.
CCS - Setting the Standards

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #122 on: 28 August, 2017, 10:15:12 pm »
I was told by a couple of people that the BC water was tasting funny having come through a long hose.  (I think it was BC, the memory is a bit addled) . Personally i found all water fine and never noticed any problems.

The water's pretty manky everywhere at the moment, they tend to put more chlorine in at times of heightened terror alert. The Brampton water has changed source recently as well.

There was a long hose to the taps. The controller had been trying to use the same tap as 2013, which was a lot nearer, and was finally told that was not possible on the Wednesday before the start. The alternative tap was on the entrance road, which would have meant clashing with arriving riders. The filling point ended up at the first place which didn't interfere with traffic flow.

The result was that the water could stand in the hose, and warm up, with the chlorine not helping. That didn't happen as much during the peak flow, as the water didn't stay in the pipes as long, and those times were at night. Later, the volunteers ran the taps at intervals to avoid water standing too long.

It's a problem common to all the external tap arrangements to a greater or lesser extent. That sort problem is also a function of dealing with school caretakers out of term time.

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #123 on: 28 August, 2017, 10:18:37 pm »
Brampton hasn't changed water source. People are getting confused with out here on the Cumbrian coast where we have changed source to reduce the abstraction from Ennerdale water (to protect fresh water mussels). That change only affects the western fringe of the county.
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Re: Managing the spikes at controls
« Reply #124 on: 28 August, 2017, 10:23:42 pm »
I'm only repeating what the locals told the volunteers.