Author Topic: Spoke breakage in new wheels  (Read 1522 times)

Spoke breakage in new wheels
« on: 06 August, 2017, 08:31:10 pm »
Reading a reply from Brucey brings to mind something that has always puzzled me about a couple of wheels.  But rather than high-jack Ham's thread, I've started a separate topic. 

NB; if you are coming to a set of wheels late (i.e. after they have started to break spokes) and stress-relieve them, this can prevent much further trouble in the long run. However in the short term you may still break a few spokes even after the stress-relief has been done. This happens because those few spokes may already be cracked and once this happens nothing will save them.

 Jobst Brandt reckoned that you might break a couple more spokes in such a wheel but there is (for wheels that are not built with defective or ill-fitting components) now a more accurate estimate than this;  having tested several thousand spokes from several  hundred failing wheels, I can report that if you stress-relieve a wheel having replaced 'n' spokes, you can expect to break up to about 'n' more spokes in the worst case, and more typically about half that number. 


Mostly I've been building my own wheels for the last 10 years or so due to issues with factory built, low spoke count wheels (and maybe my "avoir du poids" :( ).  Nearly always happy results.

However, at one stage I ordered a pair of wheels from a highly reputed (nameless) builder. 32 spoke Ambrosio rim rear and 28 front with Ambrosio (i.e. Novatec) hubs.  I didn't specify spokes, they came with ACI double butted, which I have used frequently myself without problems.

When delivered , the spoke heads fitted snugly in the spoke holes, so that the spoke head and flange looked like a flat surface.  Also the wheels were truly, stunningly round and true.

However, I had several spokes break at the spoke head or elbow in the first few months.  From memory 3 spokes on the rear and one or 2 on the front.  As I had correct length, matching ACI spokes in my goody chest, I just replaced the spoke rather than send the wheels back (easier).

About that time, I bought a Park tensiometer and decided that the rear was over tensioned, so I slackened drive and non-drive off a 1/4 or 1/2 turn (can't remember exactly).

I didn't trust the wheels too much and they were not too much used.  However, in recent months, they have seen quite a bit of use and no more broken spokes.  The wheels are now 6 years old and may have done a 1,000 miles.

What I notice now is that the spoke heads are no longer perfectly flat in the flange but slightly pulled  towards the direction of tension.

Any ideas on what was going on and what the problem was?  Can I trust these wheels now?

I would have thought that effective stress relieving of a newly built wheel would ensure that the spoke heads were not perfectly flat in the spoke hole.  I'd be amazed if this particular builder had skipped this, but......

Re: Spoke breakage in new wheels
« Reply #1 on: 06 August, 2017, 08:38:16 pm »
A bad batch of spokes?


rogerzilla

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Re: Spoke breakage in new wheels
« Reply #2 on: 06 August, 2017, 09:46:02 pm »
Spokes rarely fail through overtensioning.  Rims and hub flanges might, but not spokes.
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Re: Spoke breakage in new wheels
« Reply #3 on: 06 August, 2017, 09:52:39 pm »
There have been strong doubts over ACI spokes at times, but I don't believe all professional wheel builders stress relieve properly anyway, no matter how popular they are.
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Re: Spoke breakage in new wheels
« Reply #4 on: 06 August, 2017, 09:53:25 pm »
This reminds me of 1998.  I built a new back wheel and set off to ride Calais-Brindisi.  Not long after starting a spoke broke–I replaced it.  Another broke–I replaced it. A third went, and I used my last spare (which made me nervous).  But thereafter I had no more wheel-trouble, and the wheel lasted for a considerable time after the event.

Duff spokes?  Who knows.

Re: Spoke breakage in new wheels
« Reply #5 on: 06 August, 2017, 11:48:31 pm »
There have been strong doubts over ACI spokes at times, but I don't believe all professional wheel builders stress relieve properly anyway, no matter how popular they are.

yup to both.

Re ACI spoke quality; I have occasionally seen spokes (including ACI ones) with duff bends.  If you look under a x20 microscope (or a really good magnifying glass) you can see that the forming die used to make the bends was allowed to wear (and/or gall) such that the inside of the elbow bends isn't always smooth like it should be.

 This can make some or all of the spokes extremely vulnerable to cracking at that point, via fatigue. I say 'some' because it can be pot luck if the resultant warty lump on the inside  of the elbow bend is a nascent crack or not; the material on the inside of the bend should yield in compression as the bend is made and this can be a somewhat random process if the abutting surface isn't smooth; you may or may not get a 'fold-over', and if you do it is as good as having a crack...

The other thing that can cause similar 'fold-over' on the inside of the bend is if the steel itself is full of (relatively large) sub-surface inclusions. I stopped buying cheap galvanised spokes in about 1983 when I realised that I had bought a duff batch and that is why my spokes were breaking. A little metallography (samples mounted in Bakelite, ground back to the spoke centreline, polished to ~3um, etched in Nital, magnification x100 when photographed)  clearly showed a 'fold-over' on the inside of the bends. I was alerted to this when the front wheel I'd built had uneven sized flanges (but no dish to speak of) and yet the spokes on one side just kept on breaking no matter what I did, whilst the other side were pleasingly robust....

Re Plug1n's wheels; high initial tension + service stresses may have caused the spokes to settle a little (bend yielding and flange deforming, typically) in service. Backing the tension off would then lessen the rate of fatigue damage; according to some models of fatigue damage, there are contributions from both the cyclic stress variation (which won't vary much with mean tension anyway) and the mean stress.  The severe initial conditions would certainly seek out any spokes with imperfections.  By contrast had the wheels been built normally and stress-relieved properly, it is possible that any minor imperfections would have been caused to yield locally (during the overload) which then leaves them with a (relatively) compressive residual stress around them when at the service load. This can mean that even spokes with minor imperfections (which are always a possibility) will last OK.

FWIW most spokes will fail in straight tension between 250kgf and 300kgf; in the absence of stress concentrations and residual stresses, a spoke tensioned to about 100kgf ought to have an essentially infinite fatigue life, since it ought not see cyclic stresses (or mean stresses) above the fatigue limit.

NB regarding spoke tension variations;  the issue with these is not breakage of the spokes per se, it is more that

a) the slackest ones may have nipples that start to unscrew by themselves and/or
b)the tightest ones (esp on the DS rear) may be tight enough that the rim may be vulnerable to cracking.

BTW when Brandt wrote his book, rims were either single-wall or shallow double wall; in either case the upper limit for spoke tension (summer/California use) is set by the rim 'pringling' (which is a type of Euler buckling). However modern (deep, wide, stiffer) rims  are not tension-limited in the same way, but are liable to crack if they are sprayed with nasty salty winter road water whilst loaded with high spoke tension. 

It is pretty easy to chase down radial high spots too zealously and in the process end up with a few spokes that are too tight; it is often  better to accept that the rim does have a little bump in it if that results in more acceptable spoke tension.

cheers

Re: Spoke breakage in new wheels
« Reply #6 on: 07 August, 2017, 07:54:02 pm »
Cheers all.

I'll put it down to bad spokes and maybe insufficient stress relief.

If I ever wear out that rim, I'll get new spokes for a rebuild.