Author Topic: [LEL17] Brevet card return  (Read 9680 times)

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
[LEL17] Brevet card return
« on: 04 December, 2017, 07:41:25 pm »
First validated brevet cards .. early alphabet .. were posted today. Rest will go on Wednesday.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #1 on: 04 December, 2017, 08:32:34 pm »
Hurrah!

Thanks for all your work FB, and alwyn, and Phil, and everyone else ...

Tomsk

  • Fueled by cake since 1957
    • tomsk.co.uk
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #2 on: 05 December, 2017, 07:10:36 am »
Fantastic! Just in time for my birthday.

As an organiser, physically processing the brevets and recording the data is one of those slow but [to me, a luddite] almost therapeutic exercises. I guess the LEL team are heartily sick of them by now though...so a big thank you to all.  :thumbsup:

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #3 on: 05 December, 2017, 09:33:20 am »
Sue and Keith do a huge chunk of validation work and sorting queries.

Now the brevet cards back in my hands and  I have even managed to get Mrs FB lending a hand as we stick return to sender labels on every envelope, then address labels, then correct brevet card into each envelope.. fold and seal .. sort into UK Europe Rest of World.. then band into 10s, to take to Post Office .. fortunately we only have a pop up PO on Monday morning and Weds afternoon.. so careful discussion then leads to an agreement that I will pay for my blocks of 10 envelopes assuming that I have got it right .. the Pop up guy takes everything back to his real PO and his counter staff tackle sticking stamps and airmail stickers on, when they are quiet.  I have provided  a small thank you sum of cash for this staff. And that was the first 350 done  .. now to the next 500 !!

The sheer quantity of background work needed to wrap up  LEL has amazed me .. and I did the money in 2013 .. so I should have had some idea .. but the work load on simple but time consuming tasks is staggering.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #4 on: 05 December, 2017, 03:27:41 pm »
Perhaps time to drag the AUK into the 21st century on the whole brevet card thing?

It would be possible to create software in a cloud based programme that could eliminate the need for a paper carried around a brevet route. The programme would be hosted on computers at each of the check points and instead of the invigilator signing off the cards, the riders number would be inputted into the system providing a current logging of the rider's progress available to any who had access allowing supporters to see where their rider is at all times.

We use a similar system on our ultra races logging in the racers at they pass a time point such that at the end of the races or at any intermediate point, we know precisely how long or how many miles the racer accumulated.

For an event such as LEL where scrolling down a list of 900+ riders would be impractical, a simple  entry system would algorithmically sort the number into the control numerator.

The next LEL being 3 1/2 years away, there is adequate time to move onto a computer controlled brevet recording system and away from paper. Having a system which removes the need for the kind of end of event activity your post describes and at the same time providing an instant result should make the job much easier and could attract more volunteers to do the work of managing brevets and the LEL.

If there was an interest among the top dogs of the AUK to go into the direction I suggest, there is a person who could very adequately to the job if she was interested (and if she is an AUK member), and I could provide the name if you would like to PM me.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #5 on: 05 December, 2017, 04:15:22 pm »
That sounds pretty similar to what we did have on LEL this year and on PBP in 2015 and yes, it's generally efficient etc., BUT I suspect that many riders treasure their brevet cards long after the events themselves have passed so there's an unquantifiable subjective and emotional rationale for retaining them.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #6 on: 05 December, 2017, 05:56:23 pm »
I intend to frame my Brevet, alongside the medal and bike number card. It tells a story.

I suspect I won’t be the only one.

Yay, to them coming out so soon! I wasn’t expecting it till the new year.

John

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #7 on: 05 December, 2017, 06:45:47 pm »
Maybe those who need the card so much should volunteer to do the work next LEL?

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #8 on: 05 December, 2017, 06:52:35 pm »
Mr Polecat, what is this talk of racing?  Surely it is a truth universally acknowledged that since (aside from all other considerations) racing upon the roads of our green and pleasant land without the appropriate permissions in place would be contrary to the law of said land, audax rides are simply private excursions for pleasure.  Racing?  How frightfully vulgar that would be!

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #9 on: 05 December, 2017, 07:02:32 pm »
Maybe those who need the card so much should volunteer to do the work next LEL?

Currently the riders often photograph their cards. The card is the definitive record, for use if the electronic record is flawed. The organisers could photograph the card, and the riders could take it home on the day. There would then be a record of the state of the card at the finish, in case of dispute.

A sticker could be printed from the result website, as a certificate can be now.

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #10 on: 05 December, 2017, 07:06:21 pm »
You don't have to be racing to use the same things that people use in races.

Perhaps time to drag the AUK into the 21st century on the whole brevet card thing?

...

LEL kind of does that already with the barcode scanning at each control and the rider tracking system. What would be interesting (in terms of this debate at least) is how reliable that was during the event, e.g.

How many times was a paper Brevet card not signed at a control?
How many times was this corrected by referring to the backup paper notes taken at a control? (Rather than referral to other evidence...)
How many times was the Brevet Card barcode scan used as a backup for an unsigned brevet card?
How many times was the Brevet Card not scanned at a control?

The problem with:-

...the riders number would be inputted into the system...

Where does the person inputting the number get it?
  • Quite a number of the riders won't remember their number (especially when tired) or will misremember it (incorrect data is worse than no data)
  • Quite a number of riders don't speak English so can't be asked for their number
  • Numbers pinned to a rider fall off, or are pinned to different jerseys/jackets/etc. Forcing people to wear a visible number is a bad idea.

If you need to have something that it's written down on to present (which most Audax riders will be familiar with) then you've not solved the actual problem you set out to solve, you just changed the shape/size of the brevet card to something people aren't familiar with.

Timing chips are a possible solution, but definitely not reliable enough for Brevet Validation purposes (my PBP 2011 electronic record isn't complete despite me passing over all of the requisite timing mats).

Paper brevet cards (with backup paper lists at each control) represent the most reliable system at present. I don't see this changing before 2021. The fact the cards could be scanned for the rider tracking system was a bonus (and meant that there was a second backup at the controls).

GPS tracklogs aren't reliable enough, and easily forged. (I'd be interested when someone produces a device that produces cryptographically signed trackpoints.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #11 on: 05 December, 2017, 07:21:26 pm »
Maybe those who need the card so much should volunteer to do the work next LEL?
There are plenty of ex-LEL riders willingly volunteering on LEL.

Many also help at other events, stamping cards, posting them, making tea, etc etc. Most (not all) keep their brevet cards from major events (some keep all of 'em!). This seems to be a problem mainly in your mind.

Meanwhile, the TCR* uses shitloads more technology-per-rider than AUK, but the brevet cards are a central much-loved feature.


*A race usually held outside the UK and US.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #12 on: 05 December, 2017, 07:26:36 pm »
I'm not a fan of publicly visible SPOT trackers for brevets but I know I am swimming against the tide of dot-watchers.

It is interesting watching the discussions that follow every BHPV race to correct various misfires with their helmet-mounted logger-based race results. They back it up with continuous video recording of the finish line to let them count laps, if necessary.

I am one of quite a few folk who's LEL17 electronic log failed during the event but my brevet card worked fine and provided my homologation. Electronic logging during my PBP15 wasn't up to snuff either.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #13 on: 05 December, 2017, 07:29:54 pm »
Meanwhile, the TCR* uses shitloads more technology-per-rider than AUK, but the brevet cards are a central much-loved feature.

The Brevet Card is still the de facto proof on TCR. If your SPOT tracker shows you riding past one of the controls but you don't go inside to get the brevet card stamped then there's no validation for you.

If the control has packed up and gone home by the time you get there (and you still finish) then you go down as an equivalent of Hors Delai (although there is no limit to how late one can be). I think it's "CATEGORY FINISH" for doing it within the time and rules, and then "COMPLETION" for anyone who finishes outside of the time (and various other rules).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #14 on: 05 December, 2017, 07:32:57 pm »
I'm not a fan of publicly visible SPOT trackers for brevets but I know I am swimming against the tide of dot-watchers.

They don't have to be public.

But SPOT trackers as a requirement is just too much of a financial burden, even for "expensive"[1] rides like LEL.

1. Expensive relative to other Audaxes, not to other activities (it's inexpensive compared to many other endurance events - a typical Ironman branded event is more expensive and you can only string that out to 17h with only free gels and carb drinks).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #15 on: 05 December, 2017, 09:07:44 pm »
Where did the Spot tracking thing come into the discussion? I wasn't advocating that. Electronic recording by human fingers onto a key board was my suggestion. Spot's can be useful for long races but they are expensive and can fail and the main tracking company Trackleaders might not be interested anyway.


Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #16 on: 05 December, 2017, 09:54:09 pm »
They're a logical extension to this, that someone was bound to suggest at some point.

Electronic recording by human fingers onto a key board was my suggestion.

Yes, and the problem with that is that people have to remember a number (which is unreliable) or carry something with a number on it which may as well be a brevet card (since most Audax riders will be unfamiliar with anything different).

The last two LELs had people recording things onto computers, via something more reliable than a human at a keyboard (a barcode scanner). What it's shown is that the technology is not reliable enough for the levels of validation required for these types of events.

Spot's can be useful for long races but they are expensive and can fail and the main tracking company Trackleaders might not be interested anyway.

Trackleaders are the main visualisation company, but if you don't want/need locations to be public then one can just collect the data from the individual trackers from SPOT directly (the company that provides the actual device tracking service).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #17 on: 05 December, 2017, 11:07:34 pm »
I like knowing I have brevet cards as hard copy souvenirs of epic (for me) occasions.

Much that relies on technology is somewhat ephemeral and might be lost or unreadable in 20 years time or less.

Being an old codger, I like to hark back to my glory days.

I find it comforting.

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #18 on: 05 December, 2017, 11:56:47 pm »
"Being an old codger, I like to hark back to my glory days. I find it comforting."

Oh dear, how sad, perhaps you could adopt a cat?

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #19 on: 05 December, 2017, 11:59:55 pm »
The last two LELs had people recording things onto computers, via something more reliable than a human at a keyboard (a barcode scanner). What it's shown is that the technology is not reliable enough for the levels of validation required for these types of events.

Part of that comes from it not being a requirement though? It it were, riders would be much more vigilant about making sure they were scanned correctly and (where this idea falls down) the online tracking system would need to be replaced with something that could robustly log riders offline from places with flakey connectivity for later syncing.

It could certainly be done, but I'm not sure it'd be worth the headaches to be honest, especially given the very high sentimental value of the brevet card itself.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #20 on: 06 December, 2017, 12:42:12 am »
"Being an old codger, I like to hark back to my glory days. I find it comforting."

Oh dear, how sad, perhaps you could adopt a cat?

HOW many more do you want me to take on?

We are currently feeding five uninvited guests. David has fallen in love with them.

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #21 on: 06 December, 2017, 01:09:48 am »
I've now ridden three events that purported to have some form of electromagic tracking or PoP in addition to the brevet cards - PBP 2015, Wild Atlantic Way 2016, and LEL 2017 (plus LEL 2013, but AFAIR that was by manual entry into the logging system, not any form of semi-automated entry).

PBP's system fell over at several controls, and I know I vanished from view a few times. LEL's system had glitches, and though I was registered correctly at each control there were others who weren't, and the data wasn't always publicly visible (possible down to connectivity problems at some controls). As for the WAWA, last time I checked my tracker (a day or two after finishing the route), I was apparently still at Malin Head. That's a little way short of the level of reliability we'd want if it were to replace, rather than supplementing brevet cards.


Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #22 on: 06 December, 2017, 08:09:21 am »
Maybe those who need the card so much should volunteer to do the work next LEL?
How do you think some of us got our place on this year's LEL?

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #23 on: 06 December, 2017, 09:09:17 am »
Maybe those who need the card so much should volunteer to do the work next LEL?
How do you think some of us got our place on this year's LEL?

Indeed. And some of us will be volunteering again next time around.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Re: Brevet card return
« Reply #24 on: 06 December, 2017, 09:37:00 am »
Another factor is that the stamping of cards at checkpoints allows and encourages social interaction , which is, IMHO, a good thing for riders, volunteers and the event.
It also allows controllers to see the rider and check on their wellbeing. In a health and safety conscious age, this is also a good thing.

PS-Thanks to fidgetbuzz and the team for the getting the cards out before Christmas. It means we can bore the pants off our families and friends over the holiday with more epic tales brought back to mind by those wonderful stamps .