Author Topic: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals  (Read 3474 times)

Samuel D

Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« on: 14 May, 2018, 12:48:46 pm »
I recently made the change from Look PP 247 pedals with the original Delta cleat system to Shimano Ultegra PP-6620 SPD-SL pedals. As usual I first read a lot of online opinion. None of it mentioned that clipping in would be harder.

Now I understand why I often see cyclists making a hash of this job at traffic lights and even pro racers sometimes getting it wrong.

Why is it harder? The Looks have huge, raised loops at the front of the pedal, which are caught by deep hooks on the cleats. The pedals hang down decisively in the same orientation every time. Therefore to clip in you merely kick your foot forward, and if you’re in the right postcode you hook the pedal. Thereafter the cleats engage with a tremendous clack when you push down. If you don’t engage, your foot slips off immediately. For these reasons there can be no doubt about whether you’re clipped in.

The Shimano system with its lower stack height has the pedal loops practically level with the pedal platform. The cleat hook is closer to the shoe sole. The pedals are 100 g lighter – mostly saved at the back – and hang down less positively and precisely than the Looks. These things together mean that clipping in involves aiming at a much smaller target.

When you’ve caught the pedal, you still have to push down to clip in. Instead of a smooth, springy feeling followed by a great mechanical clack, you get a feeling of working against plastic-on-plastic friction followed by a weaker snap compared to the engagement force.

Additionally, because the cleats have walking pads at the corners, pedalling briefly while not clipped in is possible. There’s no immediate proof you haven’t clipped in.

Unclipping the Shimanos is a mechanically vaguer process than unclipping the Looks, too. There’s more friction and less spring action. It also feels like more heel rotation is needed before unclipping passes the point of no return, which may be good or bad depending on how wild your pedalling action gets in a sprint.

There are benefits:
  • lighter weight
  • lower stack height
  • adjustable cup-and-cone bearings in a brilliant press-fit cartridge system with its own cartridge press and extractor built into the pedal (nicely explained here)
  • steel wear plate, the absence of which ended the life of my Looks. This part was also replaceable on older Shimano pedals like mine but not on the current ones
  • hopefully less squeaking with worn cleats and pedals
  • hopefully longer cleat life because of the walking pads
  • easier and safer walking because of the shallower cleats and grippy walking pads.
But you don’t get these benefits for nothing as the internet led me to believe.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #1 on: 14 May, 2018, 01:16:21 pm »
Hi Samuel. I still have my original pair of Look PP 247 and a pair of PP 206,both Wonderful pedals and so easy to get into when cycling with cleats albeit I prefer the PP 206 and with the added advantage of the Red Cleats with the 9* of float;they were/are especially kind on old wonky knees.

Sadly in November 2007 I ended-up with a total left knee replacement and even with the adjustment backed right off I have difficulty getting out of the left pedal.

Fortunately I never parted with my Marcel Berthet Lyotard Platform pedals and Christophe Toe clips + QR straps,indeed I have three pairs - one pair dating back to the early 1960's when I used to ride track at Bootle,Liverpool on my 1937 Hetchins Vibrant Triangle.
The design of the Marcel's meant that they were the quickest pedal to gain access into even from a standing start and when out on the road and in traffic there was never any fumbling around at traffic lights if one was forced to go foot-down.

I have several pairs of Vittoria traditional leather cycling shoes with nail on/screw one aluminium plates. I have cut the grooves so that they are slightly wider so as to have a little float.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #2 on: 14 May, 2018, 01:45:37 pm »
I just changed from Look Deltas at the end of last year.  I liked them, easy to clip in / out and secure. 
Downsides were high stack height (not good for aeroz) and tendency to squeak.

Samuel D

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #3 on: 14 May, 2018, 01:56:37 pm »
What are you using now, Frank9755?

I liked my antique Looks a lot and would still use them if they hadn’t started squeaking uncontrollably, I think because sandy cleats have worn deep hollows into the aluminium platforms. The other thing is that the Delta cleats don’t last more than a few months for me before they start audibly knocking when climbing. This seems to arise when vertical play between cleat and pedal becomes possible as the cleat wears away from minimal walking. Replacing cleats every few months is more costly than I like.

A friend recommended Look Kéo pedals. I asked him how long they last. About two years! Not for me. The old Delta warriors would last forever if you looked at the bearings once in a while, platform erosion aside.

ACyclingRooster brings up the interesting topic of float. Our feet don’t have float when walking on solid ground, but they are free to land at whatever angle they prefer.

Similarly, on flat platform pedals, our feet can adopt any angle they like, but they don’t usually float during the pedal stroke. There’s sufficient cleat-pedal friction to prevent that except perhaps in the rain or when getting a big ragged (e.g. sprinting).

This leads me to think that many people (and ACyclingRooster may be an exception with the knee replacement) like float because it eliminates the need for a precise cleat position rather than because they want float during the pedal stroke. Alternatively, maybe they like being able to adjust their foot angle occasionally during a ride, e.g. for standing.

My fairly young knees are alright, so I’m trying zero-float cleats with the new Shimano pedals. They’re not literally zero-float in the way a high-friction pedal-shoe interface is. But they have only a little bit of slop before the pedal’s claw spring starts resisting further movement. My left foot was immediately comfortable. My right foot, which is the side I broke my femur at the hip years ago, has been more difficult to get just right.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #4 on: 14 May, 2018, 02:56:59 pm »
What are you using now, Frank9755?

I liked my antique Looks a lot and would still use them if they hadn’t started squeaking uncontrollably, I think because sandy cleats have worn deep hollows into the aluminium platforms. The other thing is that the Delta cleats don’t last more than a few months for me before they start audibly knocking when climbing. This seems to arise when vertical play between cleat and pedal becomes possible as the cleat wears away from minimal walking. Replacing cleats every few months is more costly than I like.

A friend recommended Look Kéo pedals. I asked him how long they last. About two years! Not for me. The old Delta warriors would last forever if you looked at the bearings once in a while, platform erosion aside.

ACyclingRooster brings up the interesting topic of float. Our feet don’t have float when walking on solid ground, but they are free to land at whatever angle they prefer.

Similarly, on flat platform pedals, our feet can adopt any angle they like, but they don’t usually float during the pedal stroke. There’s sufficient cleat-pedal friction to prevent that except perhaps in the rain or when getting a big ragged (e.g. sprinting).

This leads me to think that many people (and ACyclingRooster may be an exception with the knee replacement) like float because it eliminates the need for a precise cleat position rather than because they want float during the pedal stroke. Alternatively, maybe they like being able to adjust their foot angle occasionally during a ride, e.g. for standing.

My fairly young knees are alright, so I’m trying zero-float cleats with the new Shimano pedals. They’re not literally zero-float in the way a high-friction pedal-shoe interface is. But they have only a little bit of slop before the pedal’s claw spring starts resisting further movement. My left foot was immediately comfortable. My right foot, which is the side I broke my femur at the hip years ago, has been more difficult to get just right.

Hi to Samuel and Frank. Without the presence/ability of ones feet to float sideways the knees will sooner or later suffer with immense grief and if persisted with will result in the likelihood of bone on bone as the cartilage erodes and the anterior cruciate ligament fails to function in the internals of the knee joints.
In extreme cases this will also affect the hips if totally overlooked/ignored.

In my case I encountered a problem after knee surgery in that I am restricted to riding 140mm cranks (Thorn - SJS Cycles).
I stand at 4'10" tall in my stocking feet and ride a 50cm Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Alu Carbon Flat-bar Hybrid on Campagnolo Veloce and also a 51cm Steve Goff also on Veloce.

At pushing 73 years young I intend to continue riding until I literally fall off of the bikes and hopefully into either a field or onto a footpath  ::-)
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #5 on: 14 May, 2018, 03:24:42 pm »
What are you using now, Frank9755?


I'm now using mostly flat pedals.
My reason for switching from Delta's was to get cleats further back. I tried speedplays, which achieved this to an extent. I'm still using them on my TT bike but have gone flat on my others.  I like the large amount of float! Not so good for sprinting and sometimes my feet slip during a clumsy shift but otherwise, no drawbacks that I can see.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #6 on: 14 May, 2018, 03:25:37 pm »
My knees complain if I don't have float.
However, I don't see why lack of side to side motion (or a couple of degrees of twist) will cause the ACL a problem - it's primary purpose is to stop the lower leg pulling forwards at the knee joint, and you need quite a wrench or twist to cause it issues.

Samuel D

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #7 on: 14 May, 2018, 04:44:50 pm »
Without the presence/ability of ones feet to float sideways the knees will sooner or later suffer with immense grief and if persisted with will result in the likelihood of bone on bone as the cartilage erodes and the anterior cruciate ligament fails to function in the internals of the knee joints.

Why do you say that? It seems to me that friction prevents the foot angle changing during the pedal stroke. Certainly that is what happens in my case. So what difference does float make to pedalling?

I'm now using mostly flat pedals. […] I like the large amount of float!

Hmm. Flat pedals have any amount of float in that you can pedal on them any old way. However, presumably they completely prevent a change of heel angle during the pedal stroke. So arguably they’re zero-float when it counts most.

My knees complain if I don't have float.

So when do you use the float feature? When transitioning from sitting to standing?

My choice of zero-float cleats this time around was based on my understanding that the heel angle does not change while spinning the cranks, because of friction between the pedal and shoe. The Shimano SPD-SL system has plenty of this friction. Have other people observed otherwise?

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #8 on: 14 May, 2018, 04:58:19 pm »
My knees complain if I don't have float.
However, I don't see why lack of side to side motion (or a couple of degrees of twist) will cause the ACL a problem - it's primary purpose is to stop the lower leg pulling forwards at the knee joint, and you need quite a wrench or twist to cause it issues.

Hi Duncan. In your case,the damage may already be beyond repair and the knee may need a total replacement but being younger than they recommend in all but really critical cases could be a barrier to that being carried out.

The lack of side to side motion/articulation in itself is not such a problem because of the purpose of anterior cruciate ligament but when the cartilage is as good as not there at all;as was in my case then the issue of float or rather lack of it does become an issue.
That was sorted after having the total left knee replacement but in my case I then had restricted bend at the knee - hence the 140mm cranks.
My right knee gives me occasional grief but I am reluctant to have it replaced because of the now known disadvantages.
I cannot stoop without grief,neither can I kneel on my new knee simply because I retained my own patella.
I have to sit down on the floor to carry-out a number of tasks and that then plays hell with my stomach muscles if sat for any more than about 10 minutes.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #9 on: 14 May, 2018, 05:01:36 pm »
HK and I get sore knees using cleats with excessive float but YMMV.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #10 on: 14 May, 2018, 05:05:03 pm »
Float is all about knee preservation and the lack of/reduced grief that a fixed foot/shoe will create.

The movements in a full pedal action are many including the hips,the knees,the ankles but initially I believe that the knees are the first warning of grief to follow.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #11 on: 14 May, 2018, 05:29:55 pm »
My knees complain if I don't have float.
However, I don't see why lack of side to side motion (or a couple of degrees of twist) will cause the ACL a problem - it's primary purpose is to stop the lower leg pulling forwards at the knee joint, and you need quite a wrench or twist to cause it issues.

Hi Duncan. In your case,the damage may already be beyond repair and the knee may need a total replacement but being younger than they recommend in all but really critical cases could be a barrier to that being carried out.
My knees are dodgy (the right one has had several MCL and meniscus tears, and only has half an ACL), but thankfully if I don't play football then they aren't that bad!
They have been sensitive to float since I was a teenager (before I did any damage to them at all)!

My knees complain if I don't have float.
So when do you use the float feature? When transitioning from sitting to standing?

My choice of zero-float cleats this time around was based on my understanding that the heel angle does not change while spinning the cranks, because of friction between the pedal and shoe. The Shimano SPD-SL system has plenty of this friction. Have other people observed otherwise?

I believe that my heel angle changes on the pull and lift part of the pedal stroke (compared to the downstroke). I'm not very flexible in my hips and I have tight ITBs, so the requirement for float might be due to imbalances, but when I first started using SPDs many years ago I uses non-float versions and I got knee pain until I switched to floating ones. I believe that the float is much more forgiving to imperfect pedalling action (and that knees are the most vulnerable part of the kinetic chain) - if your knees work well with zero float then maybe you're just smoother than me. :)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #12 on: 14 May, 2018, 07:41:33 pm »
clipping into spd-sl's should be easy, if it's not it will come with a bit of practice (only very rarely i miss the cleat entering the pedal). when clipping in it should be a sharp, positive and loudish snap - provided the pedals are in a good state, cleats not worn and spring at the right tension. as to which float cleat to choose it's down to each individual. i prefer no float, but also ride the ones with float no problem, as long as there are no noises when the cleat moves. i only get pain in the knees if i do a big ride without doing shorter rides prior (i.e. nothing to do with the cleats or float).

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #13 on: 14 May, 2018, 07:55:00 pm »
when SPD SL cleats are new, is it not the case that to clip in, you need to compress the walking pads slightly? If so this might lead to a mushy feeling as you step into the pedal.

Also the bearings/seals tend to be a little draggy in brand new pedals, which may lead to them not hanging at the right angle to start with, and clipping in may be different at least. Come to think of it clipping in is different with different pedals (even if they are meant to be the same type) anyway.

Re float; some riders certainly do twist their feet during the downstroke. You will know that you do this if you ride a standard SPD pedal when it is dry and when the pedal/cleat have just been lubricated, and you feel a big difference. In the latter case it will usually feel like you are treading in something nasty during the downstroke.

cheers

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #14 on: 14 May, 2018, 08:32:12 pm »

I'm now using mostly flat pedals. […] I like the large amount of float!

Hmm. Flat pedals have any amount of float in that you can pedal on them any old way. However, presumably they completely prevent a change of heel angle during the pedal stroke. So arguably they’re zero-float when it counts most.

Not so.  It is possible to rotate your foot on the downstroke on a flat pedal in the same way as on a cleat.  Different pedal / shoe combinations have different degrees of friction and float characteristics.  Actually, it is cleats which allow you to pedal any old way: flat pedals require a certain amount of control so that your foot doesn't move from where on the pedal you want it to be!  Hence they are not so good for sprinting.

Samuel D

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #15 on: 14 May, 2018, 10:04:18 pm »
I believe that my heel angle changes on the pull and lift part of the pedal stroke (compared to the downstroke).

That seems more likely to me than on the downstroke. Still, wouldn’t there be significant wasted energy and wear on the plastic cleats if rotation happened on every stroke? Probably accompanied by noise in many cases.

[…] when I first started using SPDs many years ago I uses non-float versions and I got knee pain until I switched to floating ones.

That may only prove that cleat placement must be unreasonably precise with zero-float cleats. Considering the crude cleat-shoe attachment method, the needed precision is hard to reliably achieve without a jig like the Ergon TP1. With steel SPD cleats, you have one attempt to get it right, since on subsequent attempts the cleats will fall into the indents they’ve made in the sole (unless you rotate them a mile or move them forward or back to find virgin sole).

when SPD SL cleats are new, is it not the case that to clip in, you need to compress the walking pads slightly?

May depend on the pedal. On mine, no, although the back of the central pad gets close to the platform.

Re float; some riders certainly do twist their feet during the downstroke. You will know that you do this if you ride a standard SPD pedal when it is dry and when the pedal/cleat have just been lubricated, and you feel a big difference. In the latter case it will usually feel like you are treading in something nasty during the downstroke.

That is kind of my point: with low enough friction, there may be some rotation, but typical friction prevents it. If you walk on wet ice your foot will also rotate but it doesn’t when walking on concrete.

That it feels “nasty” when the cleat is lubricated suggests that foot rotation normally doesn’t occur.

It is possible to rotate your foot on the downstroke on a flat pedal in the same way as on a cleat.

It is possible with deliberate effort, but does it happen when pedalling in a typical fashion? How long would (or do) your shoes last if they rotate against the pedals 5,000 times per hour?

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #16 on: 14 May, 2018, 11:23:55 pm »
Yes. 
The same thing happens with walking, it's not a conscious effort, just the sole slides slightly to provide the movement needed.
Shoes do last a good while in both situations!

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #17 on: 15 May, 2018, 12:26:46 am »
I think the rotation (during the pedal stroke) happens with a lot pedals, but if it happens with essentially no friction at all (as is essentially the case with freshly lubricated SPDs) then it does feel a bit different. For 'something nasty' read 'something very slippy'.   The rotation certainly does happen; if it cannot, my right knee hurts, (regardless of angle setting).

For at least the last thirty years I have had to file my right cleat slot into an hourglass shape, so that it will allow some twisting movement under load, yet won't flap around fore and aft, as it would do if the slot were simply cut wider.

When I ride with flat shoes, my right shoe exhibits marks that tell me that (unlike the left shoe/pedal) it isn't always presented to the pedal at the same angle under load.

When I ride with SPDs, even in town (where I am constantly unclipping with the left foot) the RH binding still wears faster than the left, because of the twisting in the right foot.

BTW there is meant to be some float with standard SPD cleats (SM-SH51) in standard SPD pedals. I use nearly all of it on the right foot. However, NB; pre-1997 SPD models have different jaws to later SPD models. There is less float with the standard (pre-1997) cleats and if you use old model SPDs with newer cleats, there is about zero float; the cleat is held almost completely rigid in the pedal.

 [Confusingly the pre 1997 standard cleats were also marked SM-SH51, but if you have ever seen a pair side by side with current SM-SH51 you will see that the shape is different. Irritatingly even the current SM-SH51 cleats come in two versions; the difference lies in the placement of the teeth that grip the sole. Current cleats are slightly different to those that were made ~1997-2002, and when they are replaced, they don't sit in the teeth marks in the shoe sole perfectly.]

I have had the chance to observe many hundreds if not thousands of other cyclists pedalling at close quarters. I would say that the number that twist their foot in the downstroke (with one or both feet if they are allowed to move), greatly exceeds those that don't.  If these people are forced to use floatless cleats in clipless pedals, moderate to severe knee pain is the inevitable outcome.  Some folk get knee pain even if there is movement, but that movement requires a little too much force.

IIRC the LOOK system came with black (i.e. floatless) cleats only for the first few years and plenty of folk I knew tried and rejected the LOOK system because (regardless of cleat setting) it made their knees hurt. When red (floaty) cleats came out, most users quickly changed to those instead; for a while you could barely give black cleats away; happy days for those few that were content with them.

  A side effect of having red cleats in the original LOOK pedals was that the length of time it took before the pedals started to squeak (uncontrollably) reduced  considerably; the original pedals were not designed to have a moving cleat in them and once the metal claw parts lost their coating, a dry cleat would soon rub and squeak. Some users used a little spray lube on the cleats/pedal  every ride but if it was wet it could be less than two hours before the squeaking would return. The same riders reported that if they used black cleats they would squeak too, suggesting that once the cleat/pedal was worn, there would be enough movement to allow squeaking even with 'floatless' cleats.

If you have a LOOK pedal with floatless cleats that squeaks, it may mean that there is vertical movement (which could be shoe sole wear not just cleat wear) and this is allowing enough movement for squeaking. However IME it is at least as likely that actually one foot (or both) wants to twist in the power stroke and that is why the thing is squeaking.

If you need about five degrees of float then there are lots of pedal systems that will accommodate you. If you need five degrees of near-frictionless float then there are fewer choices. If you need about ten degrees of frictionless float then the number of pedal systems that will accommodate you is very small indeed. 

FWIW the speedplay pedal system has its adherents; lots of near-frictionless float, different length pedal spindles, and potential for camber adjustment between the shoe and cleat.

However if you want to be able to achieve these things on a budget, others (such as the SPD system) can also accommodate you, at significantly lower cost; pedals may be extended using pedal extenders, cleats can be modified easily to give more float and small camber adjustments can be made with insoles.

The SPD system (and one or two others) give near-frictionless float simply because the cleat is small; this only works perfectly if the cleat is properly positioned; wider pedal bodies allow an imperfect fit/cleat position to be tolerated but this usually comes at the expense of float friction.

BTW I think that the twisting of the foot can come from the knee and/or the ankle; e.g. in the latter case if the foot's arch deforms under load and in the former case if the axis of movement of the knee joint is not at exactly right angles to the centre plane of the bike/crank circle.

cheers


Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #18 on: 15 May, 2018, 09:28:13 am »
The other thing to be aware of with knee motion when pedalling is that it doesn't go straight up and down.  If you do a retul fit then you'll see something like this:

I don't remember whether red is up or down, but the point is that it's rare for a knee to go straight up and down - I bet that staying exactly straight is equally unlikely.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #19 on: 15 May, 2018, 10:32:10 am »
The other thing to be aware of with knee motion when pedalling is that it doesn't go straight up and down.  If you do a retul fit then you'll see something like this:

I don't remember whether red is up or down, but the point is that it's rare for a knee to go straight up and down - I bet that staying exactly straight is equally unlikely.

Hi Duncan. The visual evidence of your post can be seen when watching the cycling tours etc on the TV and this is especially so when a frontal view of a bunch sprint is being shown and the riders are sat on the saddles after the initial acceleration has been achieved.

When 'dancing on the pedals' the action is a more vertical movement.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #20 on: 16 May, 2018, 10:46:04 pm »
just as if there wasn't enough choice in the world of pedals, there are now these;

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/looks-new-x-track-pedals-2017.html

they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery; LOOK have basically copied the small SPD cleat and made a new pedal with it. Maybe they will finally have a successful offroad pedal design.

 No idea about the bearings, but the platform is wide, which is a good start....

Not seen any in the flesh yet.

cheers

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #21 on: 16 May, 2018, 11:00:06 pm »
Interesting! Might be something worth putting on my tourer, if the bearings are any good (am currently spoilt by the lovely triple, sealed bearings on my MKS "Next" Touring pedals, though...).

Have been following this thread, though, as am thinking of getting my first ever "road" clipless pedals (I've had 2-bolt SPDs) for my next bike, so am reading the Look vs SPD-L discussion points with interest, am currently liking the sound of the Look system more (though there is also Campagnolo Pro Fit...), as I have somewhat dodgy knees and also have concerns about being able to clip OUT easily (thinking of my early SPD "clipless moments"...).
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #22 on: 17 May, 2018, 08:04:09 am »
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/look-x-track-race-carbon-pedal-review.html

shows that the bearings comprise of two small cartridge bearings outboard and (gah...) a bushing inboard.

You need a special three-prong tool to get at the bearings in these pedals.

The cleats are (unsurprisingly) much like shimano ones but they appear to have more limited lateral adjustability; if your mountings are not centred on your shoes (which is not that uncommon) then you are unlikely to be able to correct it.


A final point concerns the release mechanism. A vital ingredient in this is the 'kicker ramp' in SPDs; this forces the cleat upwards as it is twisted. In the LOOK design there is no fixed kicker ramp; what there is, is a pair of tabs that are part of the rear jaw, that rise up as soon as the jaw tilts backwards (i.e. as the cleat is twisted. These tabs may provide a kicker ramp effect, but it is unlikely to be exactly the same as in a shimano SPD. 

If there is no kicker ramp or the ramp is ineffective, then release is impaired with cleats that are slightly worn (which typically have a groove in the back from rubbing against the rear jaw).

cheers


Samuel D

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #23 on: 17 May, 2018, 08:56:21 am »
Brucey: are you saying you want some float, but that the float has to come with just the right amount of friction? If it’s too low, it feels like treading on dog poo. If it’s too high, your foot won’t float (at least without stressing the joints).

Can you pedal comfortably with rubber-soled shoes on flat pedals on a dry day?

Meanwhile, I’ve finally got the SPD-SL cleat angle correct for my right foot. I can’t feel any difference when pedalling compared to the Look Delta cleats before, even though the Looks had float and a higher stack.

Regarding the new Look system, perhaps Shimano’s SPD patents have expired!

Re: Look Delta to Shimano road clipless pedals
« Reply #24 on: 17 May, 2018, 09:22:52 am »
for normal riding there is no such thing as 'too little friction' in the float, for me. I pointed out that you might feel the difference if you reduce the friction below normal levels, and that might tell you if your foot is trying to move or not. [Having said that, when sprinting, most clipless pedals don't feel secure enough, and I prefer clips and double straps for this.]

If riding with rubber soled shoes the sole might slide over the pedal, the sole itself might shear, or my foot might move inside the shoe. Anyway I am unlikely to wear such shoes for long rides.  Years ago I often used a set of sidi touring shoes that had hard rubber soles and these slid over (and wore) pedals of all types, more in the right foot than the left of course.

I'm not sure about the SPD patents; LOOK's version is different enough that it may just get around them; of course there have been many other clones previously (from various manufacturers) and some of them use cleats that are nigh-on identical to the shimano ones, some don't.

cheers