Author Topic: Propane/Butane cartridges  (Read 8525 times)

Dave_C

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Propane/Butane cartridges
« on: 28 June, 2016, 10:52:00 am »
Hi,

I bought the Alpkit Kraku Stove and tried using it with a Go System fuel cartridge before an expedition. The cartridge wasn't new so I lit up the stove and started to boil water as a test to see how long it takes. After a minute the flame dropped and I assumed the cartridge was empty so let it burn out. After taking the stove off the cartridge I found the cartridge still had liquid sloshing around in it, and after shaking and re attaching it lit up and burned again.

Does the Butane/Propane mix have any waxy residue with could block the jets or if left for an extended period (6 months) does the fuel change and stop off gassing as effectively?

Cheers, Dave C
@DaveCrampton < wot a twit.
http://veloviewer.com/athlete/421683/

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #1 on: 28 June, 2016, 12:04:36 pm »
The gas evaporating inside the canister cools the remaining liquid gas.
Butane boils at about zero degrees, and if the liquid gas is cooler than about 5 degrees above the boiling point there isn't enough gas pressure to get a proper flame at the burner.
Propane boils at a much lower temperature, so it's added to bring the boiling point of the mix down, so you can get a good flame more often. However, by the time the canister is half used, there's not much propane left, so you are running on butane only.

Having said that, I'd be surprised that you get no flame at this time of year, so there may be a bit of oil or something blocking the valve.

The low gas pressure problem can be avoided by using a stove that allows you to use the canister upside down, with the gas evaporating in a generator tube next to the flame, where it doesn't cool the canister or use extra propane. A suitable stove would be the Alpkit Koro.

Kim

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #2 on: 28 June, 2016, 12:18:34 pm »
Unless there's something dodgy about the stove itself, I'd say it's the butane failing to boil quickly enough to maintain pressure, as andrew_s suggests.

The simple fix is to supply more heat to the cartridge than it can obtain from the surrounding air.  Easy way to do that is to put the cartridge in a pan of water.  Even water straight from the cold tap will be several degrees above the boiling point of butane, and contain a useful amount of heat.  ETA: possibly not so practical with a cartridge-top stove like the Kraku.

When camping in cold conditions, you can mitigate this to some extent by keeping the cartridge warm in your tent overnight.  Or use a liquid-feed gas stove with a pre-heat loop.  Or just use a meths stove.

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #3 on: 28 June, 2016, 03:17:36 pm »
Looking at the kraku, I wonder if there is a pressure reduction just before the burner, in the section of metal? Might be enough to cause liquid butane to form in the pipe and make a liquid lock. I guess that the gas nozzle is just above the holes in the grey pipe.

Some sort of reflector, like a bit of foil could possibly reflect enough radiant heat from the flame to prevent this.

You could check by standing the canister in a shallow pan of water - if the problem persists, it isn't the gas in the canister being too cold. Try a reflector.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Dave_C

  • Trying to get rid of my belly... and failing!
Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #4 on: 28 June, 2016, 03:18:15 pm »
Cheers, the cartridge is a couple of years old. I use a Whisperlite International when I need real heat, this is something I take whilst camping. I'll get a new cartridge.

Thanks. Dave C
@DaveCrampton < wot a twit.
http://veloviewer.com/athlete/421683/

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #5 on: 28 June, 2016, 03:37:02 pm »
Always shake up  before using, too, to mix the propane and butane. Increases the chance of using up a mix rather than burning off the propane first.

<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #6 on: 28 June, 2016, 04:57:43 pm »
Shaking doesn't help the gas mix, though it will mix in a cooled surface layer and help a little for a short while.

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #7 on: 28 June, 2016, 07:44:01 pm »
Dont turn the cartridge upside down during use unless you have preheat.
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Kim

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #8 on: 28 June, 2016, 10:04:12 pm »
Dont turn the cartridge upside down during use unless you have preheat.

Or before use, either.  (DAHIKT)

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #9 on: 28 June, 2016, 10:11:20 pm »
It was an issue when it was released 4 years ago. Thought Alpkit might have tested it before they bought a container full. Oh well.

http://tracksterman.tumblr.com/post/36875051968/fms-300t-vid

Kim

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #10 on: 28 June, 2016, 10:20:40 pm »
Poor manufacturing tolerances then, at a guess.  I suggest you send it back, Alpkit are usually pretty good about replacing things that don't work.

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #11 on: 29 June, 2016, 07:49:32 am »
How funny... This morning I was going to post the exact same question after struggling to keep mine lit last weekend.   Mine seems to work with new cartridges but not ones that have been used a couple of times :(

Dave_C

  • Trying to get rid of my belly... and failing!
Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #12 on: 29 June, 2016, 02:42:43 pm »
Thanks for the feedback. I was going to get an MSR Pocket Rocket, and suppose I should now.

I wonder if the heat in the stove is causing some material to expand and close off the jet hole. I assume the adjuster is a screw type tap, not a ball cock. Might just put it down to bad design, it was cheap, but maybe fire off a message to Alpkit too, though they may already be aware of this.

Cheers, Dave C
@DaveCrampton < wot a twit.
http://veloviewer.com/athlete/421683/

Kim

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #13 on: 29 June, 2016, 02:59:11 pm »
I've got one of these, which works fine:

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/blaze-titanium-stove-p158215

Almost as light as the Kraku, certainly smaller than a Pocket Rocket.

At one point, you could by them on eBay for 12 quid.

Dave_C

  • Trying to get rid of my belly... and failing!
Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #14 on: 30 June, 2016, 03:46:43 pm »
I contacted Alpkit with our suspicions and they have recommended I return it to them with their Free Return Post option.

Fortunately I had the original email with the AK Order number (never ever through anything away!) so its in the post.

I have asked for a refund but if they chose to send me a replacement I'll report back on it. They say they are always innovating...... We'll see.
@DaveCrampton < wot a twit.
http://veloviewer.com/athlete/421683/

Dave_C

  • Trying to get rid of my belly... and failing!
Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #15 on: 06 July, 2016, 01:43:18 pm »
Having returned the stove they tested it on a couple of different gas cartridges. They report no problems and are returning the stove with my agreement. I'll test again and report back.
@DaveCrampton < wot a twit.
http://veloviewer.com/athlete/421683/

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #16 on: 06 July, 2016, 09:39:12 pm »
Coleman canisters sometimes don't work on non-Coleman stoves.
The valves tend to be a little deeper set than normal, and the spigot in a Coleman stove is correspondingly slightly longer. They are usually OK, but it's advisable to check before a trip rather than finding out somewhere there's no replacement, and no hot food to buy.

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #17 on: 10 July, 2016, 06:27:36 pm »
Coleman canisters sometimes don't work on non-Coleman stoves....
Unfortunately, the length of the pin needed to  release gas from the lindal valve is not standardised (because the depth needed by the cartridge is not standardised)...
The man who knows all this stuff is Roger Caffin at backpackinglight.com (he builds his own stoves....)

fuaran

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #18 on: 10 July, 2016, 07:13:56 pm »
Coleman canisters work fine with my MSR stoves (Pocket Rocket or Windpro). They are what I usually use, easily available in most of the outdoor shops etc.

I did have a Campingaz canister that didn't work with either stove. Rather annoying, when trying to cook dinner in a remote bothy.

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #19 on: 10 July, 2016, 07:33:46 pm »
Had you used Campingaz canisters before, or was it a matter of making the discovery that there's no thread to screw the stoves on to?

If you were using an adapter, had it worked OK with other Campingaz canisters?

rogerzilla

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #20 on: 10 July, 2016, 07:45:26 pm »
Propane/butane mix doesn't really work except in warm summer conditions, unless you are happy to buy the cartridges just for their propane content.  Some stoves are designed to run on pure propane, although it is more expensive.  A pump-pressurised white gas stove will burn happily in almost any ambient temperature but isn't the smallest option and you can lose your eyebrows if you don't exercise basic care.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

fuaran

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #21 on: 10 July, 2016, 07:51:03 pm »
Had you used Campingaz canisters before, or was it a matter of making the discovery that there's no thread to screw the stoves on to?
It was a threaded canister, I think it was labelled as EN417. Not a piercable type, or Campingaz's own Easy Clic system.
The stove did screw on, but no gas came out. The canister was mostly full.

Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #22 on: 11 July, 2016, 11:25:42 pm »
I didn't know Campingaz had ever produced any threaded stove canisters ??? Campingaz canisters are blue; no need to read any label.
EN417 is "Non-refillable metallic gas cartridges for liquefied petroleum gases, with or without a valve, for use with portable appliances. Construction, inspection, testing and marking"; nothing to do with the valve or threads. Pierceable canisters say EN417 on them too.

Propane/butane mix doesn't really work except in warm summer conditions, unless you are happy to buy the cartridges just for their propane content.  Some stoves are designed to run on pure propane, although it is more expensive.
Stoves for pure propane are generally car camping stoves. There's no point in making light stoves as propane cylinders are necessarily heavy, so they are strong enough not to rupture in warm weather. Smallish propane canisters are common in the US, but less so in the UK.
To get full use out of a propane/butane mix canister in allmost conditions, you need a remote canister stove with preheat (MSR Windpro, Alpkit Koro etc), and to routinely use it with the canister upside down, even when fresh. Coleman propane/butane mix was fine in Scotland a month ago, 10-11° midday, 4° nighttime.

Kim

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Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #23 on: 11 July, 2016, 11:34:51 pm »
Even pure butane[1] is usable in sane (ie. above zero) conditions on a stove with a pre-heat loop.  You only need to boil enough to light the stove on gas and push the liquid out of the canister.

A meths burner will work in most conditions (I've tested down the the nominal -18C of my freezer) if you spill a bit on the side of the burner and light it with a gas lighter.  But if you're dealing with that kind of temperature, you're probably using an MSR mult-fuel rocket engine thing.


[1] Requires an adaptor, something to wedge the canister in the right orientation and a healthy amount of Knowing What You're Doing.

Dave_C

  • Trying to get rid of my belly... and failing!
Re: Propane/Butane cartridges
« Reply #24 on: 04 August, 2016, 03:46:58 pm »
I received my stove back and used it on the Highland Glens Audax. It was fine with a new cartridge.

Dave C
@DaveCrampton < wot a twit.
http://veloviewer.com/athlete/421683/